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[Puppen]

The same could be said about people who get offended by words and demand they be removed in favour of another word, couldn't they learn to have a thicker skin? to ignore the words, because the cycle means whatever replaces the current offensive word eventually is used as an insult and...






I think you are intentionally ignoring or refusing to acknowledge the point people are making because you find the word offensive and are unwilling to listen.

The word retarded (Mentally Retarded) was generated by people who thought the previous words were offensive (Spastic, Lame etc) so they had a new word that would shield them from a perceived offence. IDD now is the same thing a new word with no connotations to it, that can be easily used to shield people from a perceived problem, without dealing with the core issues and insecurities surrounding it.
Disabled itself is slowly becoming a dirty word, as people do not like it when someone they think shouldn't use the word in a given context uses is.

Its quite easy to start IDD of as an insult " Do you have IDD or something?" " Look at this fool he's got IDD or something"

Whilst I understand where you are coming from, don't you think this endless cycle is something that is inevitable and at some point people have to accept the harsh reality of life that there will always be people who insult and use words with a negative connotation, and thus the only realistic solution would be to ignore them and deny them the power they obviously have over you?



Stupid and idiot equally had their own intended non-insulting use, but have been through the cycle to the point where they were insulting and now so far down on the scale are considered acceptable once again.

I've seen this throughout my 32 years of life with acceptable terms for race, when I was younger half-cast was acceptable to describe someone of mixed race, I'm not even sure if mixed race is now acceptable as I've seen some consider that insulting and prefer their exact ethnicity (which I'm not sure how a stranger should automatically know).

equally when I was younger calling someone black was considered insulting, and the preferred term was coloured people, now coloured is considered extremely offensive and black is not - hilariously in America I see 'people of colour' is an alternate acceptable term laughably so considering its a rearranging of the insult - Benedict Cumberbatch fell foul of this when trying to highlight the disparity in the film industry so his message was lost for a misstep on wording.

A friend/colleague of mine (who is black) have often had discussions on the topic and eh finds it irritating how people who are easily offended keep changing what is considered acceptable and what is offensive, he thinks people of colour is extremely offensive and no different to coloured people. We often laugh how its got to the point that people are afraid to discuss a persons skin colour as a description, when its an easily identifiable trait e.g people who try and go 'oh the tall man over there, not that one, the other one, in the suit, no no no' and completely make a conscious effort to avoid the obvious description of skin colour out of an irrational fear of insulting someone.

The topic came up recently in relation to a british quiz show called the chase, contestants compete against a randomly chosen expert, one of which is black and his nick name (chosen by him) is the Dark Destroyer, which some have suggested is racist, a colleague's son frequently complains that its racist and you can't call people black - his teacher said so.

Its a ridiculous cycle where the intention of words no longer have any weight and only a singular individuals interpretation matters, in our effort to be all inclusive and inoffensive, we have allowed individuals feeling to go unchecked and change society, when perhaps their view is wrong, but we dare not question it out of fear of offence.

This was already covered. No, I don't believe in defeatist attitudes. The perception around mentally disabled people can be changed even while hurtful words are stigmatized. It's all a part of the same effort, raising awareness in people who typically never even think about Down's syndrome, autism, cp, etc.

A lot of people use the R word without thinking about it. By getting them to think about it, it also gets them to hopefully think about their preconceptions about the disabled in general.

 

[Keasar]

Why not just condense the whole argument into "Do not insult people"? Why advocate to just remove one word from the Insult-dictionary when people just replace it with a equally offensive word cause that is the purpose of insulting someone, to offend.

 

[jorma]

Which makes me wonder what derogatory name my kids are going to end up using casually.

IDD. It seems kinda obvious, eh

Why not just condense the whole argument into "Do not insult people"? Why advocate to just remove one word from the Insult-dictionary when people just replace it with a equally offensive word cause that is the purpose of insulting someone, to offend.

Because if you did, Puppen wouldn't be able to call Jared Leto a douchebag and still feel good about it.

 

[dity]

Why not just condense the whole argument into "Do not insult people"? Why advocate to just remove one word from the Insult-dictionary when people just replace it with a equally offensive word cause that is the purpose of insulting someone, to offend.

Because you can stop people from saying awful things while on the way towards the goal of no one insulting each other?

Also #AllLivesMatter

 

[Agent Gibbs]

This was already covered. No, I don't believe in defeatist attitudes. The perception around mentally disabled people can be changed even while hurtful words are stigmatized. It's all a part of the same effort, raising awareness in people who typically never even think about Down's syndrome, autism, cp, etc.

A lot of people use the R word without thinking about it. By getting them to think about it, it also gets them to hopefully think about their preconceptions about the disabled in general.

Whilst I agree with your sentiment in principal, hell I was on exactly the same page in my early 20's, my own experience in life is that there are people unwilling to move on a view point, unwilling to care about how they affect others, so the only defence against that is personal growth, no longer give those people power and ignore them and their intentions.

I don't see that as defeatist, I see it as choosing your battles wisely and being the better person.
I came to the realisation along time ago that I should not be defined by how other view me and/or make me feel, I should be defined by my own beliefs and self worth, through careful consideration and reflection - sure you can take view of others on board, especially those you respect, but you should never let others and their words have a hold over you, you should never give them that power.

declaring particular words offensive (in my opinion) is defeatist, you are accepting that that a particular word has power over you and your only recourse is to demand said word not be used - which feeds this cycle, you avoid a particular subject/word and feeling base on how it makes you as an individual feels.
The downside to which is a new word comes forth which brings about the same core conflict within, a conflict which is never addressed.

Even if a word was specifically created as an insult, people would find it offensive (which would in which case be its entire point) and demand it not be used.

words only have the power you let them, the power behind them is their intention, not the specific letter arrangement as this entire argument stems from.


EDIT: I should preface this with I mean no ill will towards you, neither do I dismiss your augment, I'm hear for the debate and you seem the most active poster and pretty calm and collected in your responses (ergo not resulting to insults) - I'm here for the debate, as it allows me to question my beliefs and reaffirm them or grow (again dependant on your point of view)

 

[Brinbe]

I don't really see it used much if ever on here or hear people say it much anymore.

 

[Puppen]

Why not just condense the whole argument into "Do not insult people"? Why advocate to just remove one word from the Insult-dictionary when people just replace it with a equally offensive word cause that is the purpose of insulting someone, to offend.

This is the same as saying all lives matter. Disabled people's problems are far worse than yours in context of society seeing them as an other and inferior, and worthy of being mocked. The same way african americans are far more likely than whites to be treated badly by cops and killed for no reason.

Just as an example, Ann Coulter once tweeted that we should allow the severely disabled to be killed because they're a drain on society. I know she's not a shining example of humanity, but still. A certain number of people in America don't even view the disabled as human beings.

 

[dity]

People in this thread make it seem like we don't use words to communicate, and that concepts fly mystically up in the air to be simply magicked away through pure will. Tap your heels three times and the negative connotations behind "retard" and how it makes people feel will be wished away. Go forth youths and use "retard, but like not like the people with mental disability, but a dumb thing that happened", it worked for all those other words. Hurrah!

 

[Keasar]

Because you can stop people from saying awful things while on the way towards the goal of no one insulting each other?

Also #AllLivesMatter

This is the same as saying all lives matter. Disabled people's problems are far worse than yours in context of society seeing them as an other and inferior, and worthy of being mocked. The same way african americans are far more likely than whites to be treated badly by cops and killed for no reason.

Seriously? The denial of people in America that black people are getting murdered for no justifiable reason is equatable to "people say bad word"?

 

[dity]

Seriously? The denial of people in America that black people are getting murdered for no justifiable reason is equatable to "people say bad word"?

You were going "why one thing, why not all the things?" which is one of the same mentalites behind AllLivesMatter. You're avoiding one issue by trying to umbrella it.

 

[Puppen]

Seriously? The denial of people in America that black people are getting murdered for no justifiable reason is equatable to "people say bad word"?

You don't seem to understand how bad it is in the real world for the disabled and how much deeper it goes than "people say bad word". The R word is only the tip of the iceberg, but it needs to go, and the general complete lack of interest America has towards the mentally disabled / mental health has to be addressed.

The two are equatable only in that for each of their given context, they stand out as the groups that need to be at the forefront.

People in this thread make it seem like we don't use words to communicate, and that concepts fly mystically up in the air to be simply magicked away through pure will. Tap your heels three times and the negative connotations behind "retard" and how it makes people feel will be wished away. Go forth youths and use "retard, but like not like the people with mental disability, but a dumb thing that happened", it worked for all those other words. Hurrah!

Yeah I don't know why I even bother. It's exhausting dealing with a lot of these posters. I have to assume many of them are extremely young and uninformed about the issue.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Why not just condense the whole argument into "Do not insult people"? Why advocate to just remove one word from the Insult-dictionary when people just replace it with a equally offensive word cause that is the purpose of insulting someone, to offend.

Because it's not always used as an insult. Just like "that's so gay" people use "that's retarded" when describing things they don't like, such as a video game or movie.

 

[eso76]

I am speaking about the word retarded. It's a descriptive term used in modern dialect. i.e. "Dude, that's retarded." or "I want to smoke myself retarded."

As liberal as GAF is, I see it daily. People should understand it's an offensive word.

See, while i think we're sometimes way too concerned with political correctness when it comes to choice of words (and not enough when it comes to facts) I do think that retarded is a word that's being thrown around too lightly.

NOT because it's an offensive word, though. Rather, because it is jokingly used as such in different situations.

It (mentally retarded) refers to a real, serious mental condition that's far from amusing; using that word in a different context is offensive to people with real mental disabilities, because in a way it makes fun of them.

 

[Trickster]

Would I ever try to put a mentally handicapped person down by calling them a retard/retarded? Of course not.

Would I say it's retarded how easy you can get a gun in the US? Very much so, yes.


I think the idea of censoring/not using a word for a situation, because it would have been offensive in a different situation alltogether, to be pretty dumb. The thing that (should) matter to people, is the intent that they are used with.

 

[dity]

Would I ever try to put a mentally handicapped person down by calling them a retard/retarded? Of course not.

Would I say it's retarded how easy you can get a gun in the US? Very much so, yes.


I think the idea of censoring/not using a word for a situation, because it would have been offensive in a different situation alltogether, to be pretty dumb. The thing that (should) matter to people, is the intent that they are used with.

The idea behind not using it in casual conversation, and a reason it's awful, is because it makes light of people with mental disability. It's similar to how people use words like "depressed" or "bipolar" for relatively normal situations. It makes light of those actually suffering and lessens the impact of being presented with someone who actually does have or is "retarded". Normalising that kind of language is bad - society takes those with said consitions less seriously and people who suffer are left with less support.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

I think the idea of censoring/not using a word for a situation, because it would have been offensive in a different situation alltogether, to be pretty dumb. The thing that (should) matter to people, is the intent that they are used with.

Nobody is trying to censor the use of the word, but rather inform others that whether or not it's their 'intent' to cause harm by using certain words they are doing so anyway. Just like how "that's so gay" is harmful to LGBT members as it normalizes an association of 'bad' with same-sex relationships. Furthermore, with that information any individual who decides to continue using the word can no longer claim 'intent' because they've made the conscientious decision to ignore that what they say may cause damage and opted to be ignorant.

 

[Keasar]

The idea behind not using it in casual conversation, and a reason it's awful, is because it makes light of people with mental disability. It's similar to how people use words like "depressed" or "bipolar" for relatively normal situations. It makes light of those actually suffering and lessens the impact of being presented with someone who actually does have or is "retarded". Normalising that kind of language is bad - society takes those with said consitions less seriously and people who suffer are left with less support.

In America maybe.

In Sweden we take care of them with full governmental tax-paid programs. And we use language in ways that would Americans' heads explode.

 

[LosDaddie]

Well, if you let the word-police have their way, eventually every mental condition's name will be considered offensive outside of its exact correct use. Conditions like depression, bipolar, anxiety, etc.

But here on GAF, the red name people make the rules.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Well, if you let the word-police have their way, eventually every mental condition's name will be considered offensive outside of its exact correct use. Conditions like depression, bipolar, anxiety, etc.

You're free to feel that way, no matter how wrong it actually is.

 

[Necromanti]

And we use language in ways that would Americans' heads explode.

I think a gender-neutral pronoun like "hen" would never catch on in America, definitely.

 

[jorma]

I think a gender-neutral pronoun like "hen" would never catch on in America, definitely.

triggered

 

[LosDaddie]

You're free to feel that way, no matter how wrong it actually is.

Thank you

 

[Keasar]

I think a gender-neutral pronoun like "hen" would never catch on in America, definitely.

I keep forgetting that word exists.

Haven't they already done that with "hir" or something?

 

[sobaka770]

Ahh, yes as if when I use the word to exaggerate my feelings towards something and it offends someone somewhere who doesn't even hear it then that's a problem. Also if we now use a different term for people with Down syndrome, shouldn't we now also move retard towards legacy terms which people shouldn't apply to real conditions any more?

For me, the only problem would be saying the word and actually meaning it and saying it to the actually affected person. Yeah, that's not fine.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

I think a gender-neutral pronoun like "hen" would never catch on in America, definitely.

I keep forgetting that word exists.

Haven't they already done that with "hir" or something?

"They" has existed for a long time and is gender neutral. 'Hir' is a new term but likely to only be understood within small circles.

 

[Doffen]

I've never associated the word retarded with people with disabilities.

 

[TatteredHat]

If the correct terminology for mentally disabled people has already changed anyway, what's the worry with using retarded in different contexts?

 

[Zaptruder]

I've never associated the word retarded with people with disabilities.

Just like people generally don't associate stupid or idiot with mental disabilities nowadays.

 

[Trickster]

The idea behind not using it in casual conversation, and a reason it's awful, is because it makes light of people with mental disability. It's similar to how people use words like "depressed" or "bipolar" for relatively normal situations. It makes light of those actually suffering and lessens the impact of being presented with someone who actually does have or is "retarded". Normalising that kind of language is bad - society takes those with said consitions less seriously and people who suffer are left with less support.

I'll be honest, I haven't done any reasearch into the matter, so I can only really speak for myself. But I have a really damn hard time believing that people are so stupid that because the word retarded has become a common expression for something dumb/unfair/frustrating. They then start to think "hey, maybe being mentally retarded ain't as bad as I used to think".

Nobody is trying to censor the use of the word, but rather inform others that whether or not it's their 'intent' to cause harm by using certain words they are doing so anyway. Just like how "that's so gay" is harmful to LGBT members as it normalizes an association of 'bad' with same-sex relationships. Furthermore, with that information any individual who decides to continue using the word can no longer claim 'intent' because they've made the conscientious decision to ignore that what they say may cause damage and opted to be ignorant.

OP is litterally saying that we should use a different word. I get that it's coming from a place of good intentions. But I just fundementally disagree that a word by itself can be deemed offensive and not be used. A word used with intent however, now that can be offensive as all hell.

 

[dity]

In America maybe.

In Sweden we take care of them with full governmental tax-paid programs. And we use language in ways that would Americans' heads explode.

Oh here in Australia we have disability support as well. But that doesn't stop the papers from
writing stories about how apparently everyone on the DSP is a "bludger" just "gaming the system" and whatnot.

I'll be honest, I haven't done any reasearch into the matter, so I can only really speak for myself. But I have a really damn hard time believing that people are so stupid that because the word retarded has become a common expression for something dumb/unfair/frustrating. They then start to think "hey, maybe being mentally retarded ain't as bad as I used to think".[/QUOTE

It's not about it being "not as bad", it's about associations. There's a reason why the average person doesn't give much of a shit about depression and advocates against medication and instead just says "well I get depressed sometimes and I'm fine, just go see a therapist" when it can be so much more
complex than that. I say this as someone diagnosed with depression and social
anxiety. No one took me seriously. No one cared. I went to several professionals before one even considered I might have a chemical/hormone imbalance.

When someone thinks of someone who is "retarded", their head isn't going to go
to empathy - it's going to bring up thoughts about how it's used daily: for stupid situations, for dumb things.

 

[Soodes]

I've never associated the word retarded with people with disabilities.

Same, and to me if I started doing it now it would feel like I'm instead hyper aware of someone having a mental disability. I try to treat everyone with the same level of respect no matter who you are, tiptoeing around someone just because of who they are would feel silly and fake to me. Instinctively I don't think I'd use the word around someone I didn't know from before , but if anyone knows me even a bit they'd know it would never be used with any bad intent.

If you instead go "oh no, he's disabled, I have to be careful to not be offensive, because I understand how tough it must be for you", I feel like that is much more offensive, effectively seeing them as less or unequal to you.

 

[eXistor]

OP is litterally saying that we should use a different word. I get that it's coming from a place of good intentions. But I just fundementally disagree that a word by itself can be deemed offensive and not be used. A word used with intent however, now that can be offensive as all hell.

Agreed, it's all about context as George Carlin once famously said

"There is absolutely nothing wrong – There is absolutely nothing wrong with any of those words in and of themselves. They’re only words. It’s the context that counts.

It’s the user. It’s the intention behind the words that makes them good or bad. The words are completely neutral. The words are innocent. I get tired of people talking about bad words and bad language"

 

[NoblesseOblige]

OP is litterally saying that we should use a different word. I get that it's coming from a place of good intentions. But I just fundementally disagree that a word by itself can be deemed offensive and not be used. A word used with intent however, now that can be offensive as all hell.

Recommending you use another word is not censorship. There is no threat to you if you choose to ignore it. Or did you scream "CENSORSHIP" at your high school English teacher every time they recommended you find a better word?

 

[ced]

I've quit using it over the years just to respect people's feelings on it, but I will say it's like the least offensive term used by people.

 

[Aurora Sparkle]

I came to the realisation along time ago that I should not be defined by how other view me and/or make me feel, I should be defined by my own beliefs and self worth, through careful consideration and reflection - sure you can take view of others on board, especially those you respect, but you should never let others and their words have a hold over you, you should never give them that power.

declaring particular words offensive (in my opinion) is defeatist, you are accepting that that a particular word has power over you and your only recourse is to demand said word not be used - which feeds this cycle, you avoid a particular subject/word and feeling base on how it makes you as an individual feels.
The downside to which is a new word comes forth which brings about the same core conflict within, a conflict which is never addressed.

Even if a word was specifically created as an insult, people would find it offensive (which would in which case be its entire point) and demand it not be used.

words only have the power you let them, the power behind them is their intention, not the specific letter arrangement as this entire argument stems from.

This is all that needs to be said honestly, and all that matters. People coming to terms with this reality on a large scale will never happen though because too many people now care more about the power they feel and gain by policing and being able to control others in some way or another. Whether that's over the words they're allowed to use, the clothes they're allowed to wear, or something else.
It's kind of sad really.

 

[Gravy Boat]

Have you ever called something 'dumb' op? If so you're a monster.

 

[Spuck-uk]

I did find it weird that people use that word so openly in America, where its seen as a very distinct term of abuse in the UK, one you'd be pilloried for using to describe someone with learning difficulties.

 

[Spuck-uk]

But I just fundementally disagree that a word by itself can be deemed offensive and not be used. A word used with intent however, now that can be offensive as all hell.

What about 'Nigger', 'Kike' etc?

 

[Kareha]

Is IDD an American thing, never heard of that in the UK, we just say disabled or mentally handicapped.

 

[dity]

This is all that needs to be said honestly, and all that matters. People coming to terms with this reality on a large scale will never happen though because too many people now care more about the power they feel and gain by policing and being able to control others in some way or another. Whether that's over the words they're allowed to use, the clothes they're allowed to wear, or something else.
It's kind of sad really.

Know what's really sad? When people tell you others are actually effected by the words you use and you sit there and act like it's all about a power struggle. As if you are oppressed when told a word you use makes some people feel bad and you probably shouldn't use it. That's what is really sad.

 

[Spuck-uk]

Is IDD an American thing, never heard of that in the UK, we just say disabled or mentally handicapped.

If anything the trend in academia here is toward more specificity. 'mentally handicapped' could refer to someone on the autistic spectrum or with downs syndrome, which are very different.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Is IDD an American thing, never heard of that in the UK, we just say disabled or mentally handicapped.

'Learning disability' is what the NHS has used for almost two decades.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

Duckroll used it here

What about 'Nigger', 'Kike' etc?

Some people won't accept that something can be fundamentally harmful. Even if someone uses a slur to make a good point, it doesn't change the word itself and how its use will affect people. And the people who reject that tend to have no intention of using it "properly," and only hate being "told what to do."

It's like saying intent matters when shooting someone dead — even though the intent of the shooter can have some overarching consequence down the line, the victim is still dead and intent doesn't change the observable and quantifiable effects of the action.

 

[Calabi]

I've never associated the word retarded with people with disabilities.

Same here, I didn't know it was that offensive, but whatever, I wont be using it here again for reasons I wont go into.

edit: and just to add, I dont think of learning disabled people as the "r" word, I wouldn't use it to describe them, I dont think of them in a derogatory manner, even if I may sometimes accidently use that word.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Same here, I didn't know it was that offensive, but whatever, I wont be using it here again for reasons I wont go into.

Is there any reason other than not to be ignorant?

 

[Aurora Sparkle]

Know what's really sad? When people tell you others are actually effected by the words you use and you sit there and act like it's all about a power struggle. As if you are oppressed when told a word you use makes some people feel bad and you probably shouldn't use it. That's what is really sad.

How is it anything but a power struggle though? It comes down to groups of people essentially fighting over control of a Word (which is pretty silly in itself), which sounds pretty distinctly like a power struggle to me. Control Groups always refer to the need to "Win" the word back from the people who are using it as a pejorative or in a negative context.

It's people who want to be free to express themselves however they choose, vs the people who think that nobody should have the rights to express themselves however they choose because it could be considered "offensive" to other groups of people.
Not only that, but it's also people who feel "oppressed" because they are caught in a vicious cycle where they're constantly being told to watch what they say because anyone can take offense to anything, and some word you use today could be considered harmful tomorrow. Which in that case, where does it all end? The answer is, it doesn't. It's impossible to draw the line due to the fact that language is constantly evolving. Tomorrow the word Potato could be considered an offensive, unspeakable word because some people use it in a pejorative manner that makes light of people with IDD or other disabilities.

So logically don't you think instead of worrying about what combination of letters we should soft-ban next to try and remove the power from those individuals, we should just ignore what they say instead? Wouldn't that have the same effect? How can words be offensive if you decide you're not going to let them offend you?
It's because people care more about the potential power they can have over someone else by controlling what they're allowed to say instead of just ignoring it.

 

[SummitAve]

I've felt the word start making a comeback recently. I think it's due to the increased knowledge and awareness of specific disabilities that the word has become even further seperated from the days when it was ok to use as a vague umbrella term long as you put "mentally" in front of it.

 

[mocolostrocolos]

I think Rick and Morty addressed this topic well

The philosophy in this show is incredible.

 

[Koppai]

I often have to correct people when they say it. Also when they say "That's so gay". I am gay and I find it offensive if you are meaning stupid or different.

People just need to think before they speak.

 

[mocolostrocolos]

I often have to correct people when they say it. Also when they say "That's so gay". I am gay and I find it offensive if you are meaning stupid or different.

People just need to think before they speak.

Context and meaning is everything.

Words mean shit by themselves.