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[brain_stew]

Why don't Nintendo's titles count as hardcore games? Is NSMB wii, Metroid Prime Trilogy and the others from Nintendo are they not hardcore games?

If they sell and sell well. That proves there is a market for hardcore games. It just shows that a lot of developers aren't competing with Nintendo. They should put the same effort Nintendo does into the titles and they can then see if the results are high sales.

This is a thread about third party titles, that's why.

 

[Ulairi]

This is a thread about third party titles, that's why.

Way to miss the point. My point is that it is obvious that hardcore games do well on the Wii. Nintendo has sold titles that are hardcore to millions of people. Third parties aren't putting the resources into their Wii development that they are into the 360, PS3. The only publisher that spends the resources and releases AAA games on the Wii is Nintendo.

 

[Lonely1]

By your standards, maybe, I've seen the framerate analysis and from where I'm sitting saying it performs like crap is a perfectly valid position to take.

In single player, the game do have constant frame drops. But the performance in MP is good, and looks good. A far cry from The Conduit, which low MP framerate made the game almost unplayable (for me).

 

[Effect]

I think you misunderstood my example.

This Game:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwinVDyEags

Should have had a day and date port to the Wii and they should have both been sold at the same price.

The Dante's Inferno for the PSP is another great example. They're already doing the 'lesser' port for a system that is less technically capable than the Wii. Why isn't it getting a bare port to the Wii?

Repeat again for the Japanese companies. We see a slew of renewed versions of RPGs coming out for the PSP, along with an original Resident Evil and an original Metal Gear (may be a bad example since it seems like it's meant for the adhoc experience). Most of these would probably of little to no technical challenge to port to the Wii for simultaneous release, and shared advertising would mean that advertising would happen for the Wii version.

This is what gets to me the most and part of what has turned me off to 3rd parties on the Wii in general. That some of these games end up on the PSP in a style like the original console version. However the Wii is the system that gets spin-offs done in a different genre. There is no reason at all that I can see outside of simply not wanting to do it and maybe general hate for the system that the Wii couldn't have gotten a version of Assassin's Creed or any other game if the PSP gets a damn version.

 

[Flachmatuch]

Well I really think they've made their bed. There's no doubt in my mind that they completely fucked it up at the start of the generation, the Wii completely caught them off guard and the endless fumbling/stalling has sealed their fate. They've messed up a decent opportunity. For now, they've got to ride it out until next generation and since they know targetted core titles on the PS3/360/PC are much less likely to bomb than any random Wii project, that's where the big budget titles will (and should) go.

I don't buy this "ride out until next gen" stuff. It's still two or three years, and they'll have to invest quite a bit into first gen games again. Also, nothing really says that next gen will be better for them, it could easily be worse, with even higher development costs etc. They have to start now, because they're in no positio to wait. And again, this "targeted core titles are less likely to bomb" stuff...this doesn't sound really right to me. If everyone starts doing that, there'll be way too many titles that try to be predictably successful (there aren't many choices after all), which will lead to production value (ie. cost) based competition again. It's just a bad strategy, no matter which way I look at it.

Maybe it'll look good for a while though because in the first year or so it will decrease losses so it might look like the company's doing better, and that's probably enough for the CEO to get a nice bonus or something, no idea how this shit works.

 

[Nirolak]

I think you misunderstood my example.

This Game:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwinVDyEags

Should have had a day and date port to the Wii and they should have both been sold at the same price.

The Dante's Inferno for the PSP is another great example. They're already doing the 'lesser' port for a system that is less technically capable than the Wii. Why isn't it getting a bare port to the Wii?

Repeat again for the Japanese companies. We see a slew of renewed versions of RPGs coming out for the PSP, along with an original Resident Evil and an original Metal Gear (may be a bad example since it seems like it's meant for the adhoc experience). Most of these would probably of little to no technical challenge to port to the Wii for simultaneous release, and shared advertising would mean that advertising would happen for the Wii version.

Well, you do have to consider that Sony actually went around handing out money to get most of these games on the PSP.

If Nintendo drove around to every developer handing out loads of money to get games, they probably wouldn't be lacking third party exclusives.

 

[EDarkness]

I'm equally as sad that you took 'lighthearted' as synonymous with 'kiddy' despite me explicitly giving an example of types of those games that core gamers fucking loved, that I've never once heard mocked as 'kiddy'.

I wasn't directing the list at you directly, just using general categories that have been labeled for Wii games.

If we were having this conversation two years ago I'd agree. Like I said earlier, however, a significant number of people who want 'mature' games have long since gotten fed up with their shoddy, patronizing handling on Wii and crossed over towards the other platforms that deliver the goods. And now that their needs are being met there with amenities above and beyond what Wii can offer, it's going to be a very hard sell to bring 'em back.

I just don't think that's true. Using myself as an example, I have a 360 and a PS3, but I would buy a Wii version of one of the big games in a heartbeat. If the consumer knows they can get X game on the Wii and it's just as good as the other versions, then they won't feel bad about picking it up. It's when there's a huge gulf in features and such that the Wii game gets screwed. I also think that the "core" market is extremely fickle. They will go where the best version of a game is...even if that happens to be the Wii.

Infamous is going to have to stay a far-distant hypothetical, considering it's a first-party Sony game. But to counter with another hypothetical, I think Sly Cooper would stand to do even better.

Of course. I was just pointing out that a game like it (with the same amount of hype) would work fine on the console.

I agree on Dead Space, but all the same I don't think it would have performed as well as the HD versions. In any case, another opportunity, another patronizing effort towards Wii owners. Another reason for people who wanted a "real" version of an HD franchise to leave the Wii and never look back.

I don't think it would have put up the same numbers, but I do think the sales it would have gotten would have been a LOT better than what they ended up with. If EA treated the Wii version as the same as the other versions (with the same amount of hype and marketing, as well as the promise that Dead Space 2 was coming), they'd be in much better shape, but instead spinning off with a different genre that people didn't want with no hope of the second (or even the first) being released was just not a recipe for success...and I believe they knew it.

You can't approach a product with years of history and treat as though its in the exact same position now as it was on day one. The Wii is not the system people think of when they think of 'cool' games for the 18-30 market. There's been years of third-class treatment paid to 'mature' franchises and efforts on the system, it's going to take a long, concentrated effort to bring goodwill for those types of game back to anything approaching parity with the HD consoles.

If Valve announced a Wii version of Half Life with the main team working on it and a robust online play and downloadable maps, people would be going crazy. If Bioware announced Mass Effect 1 & 2 for the Wii with updated gameplay and good graphics for the system, people would be happy with that. I don't see how any of those scenarios would be a bad thing. Especially if they were hyping them up at the same level as their 360 games. Big games are big games and will do well pretty much everywhere.

 

[Grampa Simpson]

This is what gets to me the most and part of what has turned me off to 3rd parties on the Wii in general. That some of these games end up on the PSP in a style like the original console version. However the Wii is the system that gets spin-offs done in a different genre. There is no reason at all that I can see outside of simply not wanting to do it and maybe general hate for the system that the Wii couldn't have gotten a version of Assassin's Creed or any other game if the PSP gets a damn version.

I can't see a publisher not opting for it because of some sort of unbridled hate. I can see a studio head not liking the idea for that type of reason though, and I think the publisher reasoning is the much bigger question. One theory of mine is that they're just befuddled by their data, and are unwilling to move, bundling up like a turtle in a shell of their old business practices and whatever they think will look good in their stockholder meetings and in the immediate future with as few unknown variables as possible.

One possible solution that I could see for them would be to start their 2012 releases with the successor to the Wii as an assumed multiplatform target. Start by coding with the Wii API as one of the targets so that if Nintendo announces a new platform they can get their big titles in at or around launch. They'll have to make adjustments to compensate for whatever amount of ram or architecture Nintendo uses, but if it's at least one half as powerful as the current HD twins, they can at least have some projects that could be made into viable launch titles.

 

[Grampa Simpson]

Well, you do have to consider that Sony actually went around handing out money to get most of these games on the PSP.

Point taken.

If Nintendo drove around to every developer handing out loads of money to get games, they probably wouldn't be lacking third party exclusives.

And we come back to Nintendo's previous experience has shown them that it doesn't really help. Maybe it would this generation. I don't know. I don't see it as something I would see Nintendo doing again.

EDIT: Just had a ROFLCOPTER moment. Maybe Sony and Microsoft will drive around to 3rd parties and pay them not to support Nintendo's next system. Won't that be a grand way to confound us all.

 

[PataHikari]

You know, I don't think it's quite too late, yet.

Getting there, but not yet.

This generation is going to be a long one. So there's a chance to do something. It's just more difficult now since there isn't launch hype. Basically, now start building up quality games to make people realize that there's good stuff. Though, I suspect in a year or two, if things don't change, it'll be too late then.

 

[ivysaur12]

There's also the fact that developers probably don't want to make Wii games. Your A-team developers are probably all tech-heads and want to work with the best hardware possible. They're not going to want to develop for the Wii. It's even pretty obvious in the nominations from the developer community for best games of the year.

And NMH2 is going to bomb. I loved the first one and I didn't even know it was coming out. If I'm a "hardcore" Wii gamer and Ubisoft hasn't done enough to make me realize the game is coming and want it, that's their own fault.

 

[EDarkness]

And NMH2 is going to bomb. I loved the first one and I didn't even know it was coming out. If I'm a "hardcore" Wii gamer and Ubisoft hasn't done enough to make me realize the game is coming and want it, that's their own fault.

As crappy as Ubisoft is, I think word of mouth is gonna allow No More Heroes 2 to do okay. The reviews have been pretty positive and the word is getting out there that it's out. Not only that, but it's tops in the Wii game rankings on Play-Asia. Doesn't mean that much, I know, but it's rare that actual Wii third party games hit that spot and I check that site almost every day.

 

[The Technomancer]

Point taken.

And we come back to Nintendo's previous experience has shown them that it doesn't really help. Maybe it would this generation. I don't know. I don't see it as something I would see Nintendo doing again.

EDIT: Just had a ROFLCOPTER moment. Maybe Sony and Microsoft will drive around to 3rd parties and pay them not to support Nintendo's next system. Won't that be a grand way to confound us all.

I dunno, didn't Nintendo pay Capcom a load of money to get RE4 on Gamecube months before the PS2 version or something? And didn't it pay off really well for Nintendo?(This is just something I thought I heard at one time)

As for the whole Shattered Memories thing, well, yes, there's always an excuse. But in this case, its an entirely valid excuse. When people who are actively fans of your game, who have read preview articles on your game, who post on GAF about your game, don't know your release date, you f**ked up!. Seriously, I know quite a few people, online and off, who, when they heard SM was out, were like, "oh, really, already?"
And thats people who are actively pursuing the game. How is the casual consumer supposed to know, if your ad campaign is that abysmal. I'm genuinely surprised it's made >50k even, I expected it to fall harder than Extraction.

 

[ivysaur12]

As crappy as Ubisoft is, I think word of mouth is gonna allow No More Heroes 2 to do okay. The reviews have been pretty positive and the word is getting out there that it's out. Not only that, but it's tops in the Wii game rankings on Play-Asia. Doesn't mean that much, I know, but it's rare that actual Wii third party games hit that spot and I check that site almost every day.

Eh, I hope so for Suda's sake. I plan to pick it up, but if I had the hype building up for it I definitely would have already pre-ordered it.

 

[Pureauthor]

There's also the fact that developers probably don't want to make Wii games. Your A-team developers are probably all tech-heads and want to work with the best hardware possible. They're not going to want to develop for the Wii. It's even pretty obvious in the nominations from the developer community for best games of the year.

Well, that's more Western developers. Eastern devs, for the most part, don't seem that concerned with constantly pushing the best graphics. Of course, that gives the Wii the exact opposite problem in Jaqpan, since Handhelds are so much more appealing...

 

[legend166]

When you play that game with "HD" titles, you'll find plenty of games that could have just as easily have been excused for under performance, stuff like Borderlands, Dead Space, Darksiders, Bayonetta, Bioshock and Saints Row were far from a guaranteed success yet all managed to find their market. The two RE lightgun games games, HOTD: Overkill, Dead Space, Silent Hill, The Conduit, surely one of those should have pulled respectable numbers? Yours is an easy position to defend because by getting into the minutiae you can very easily justify your opinion but the problem is your ignoring the overarching theme, which doesn't paint a very pretty picture, any way you look at it.

I'm not going to argue that the games you mentioned should have been on the Wii, but I just have to call you out for that ridiculous comparison.

Metacritic scores of the HD games you mentioned: 84, 89, 83, 91, 81

Average: 85.6

Wii games: 75, 75, 78, 82, 77, 69

Average: 76


So, there's an obvious quality difference. Aside from that, most of those HD games you mentioned had significant marketing campaigns.

Borderlands

Borderlands it set to make the most of big name titles moving out of Q4, and 2K has planned a huge marketing push, including a heavyweight TV campaign on terrestrial and satellite channels, cinema ads, specialist press and a website take-overs on IGN, Eurogamer and Gamespot.

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/35539/Borderlands-can-rival-GTA8200and-Halo


Bioshock

Notice in this story how the guy mentions that at every single stage of the production, they were completely committed to having the game be treated as AAA by the press:

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=18198


Saints Row had a "multi-million dollar, global marketing campaign" and was at the time, released almost at the peak of the 'open world' craze: http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=18198


Dead Space's marketing campaign was described as a "seven-month marketing onslaught": http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/03/16/paidcontent/main4867800.shtml


I have no idea how Darksiders or Bayonetta sold, so I can't really comment. But I will say I have seen advertisements for both games in Australia, which sure as hell means they were advertised in the US.

Everyone of those titles was considered a big release by their publisher. That cannot be said for any of those Wii titles you mentioned.

 

[EDarkness]

Well, that's more Western developers. Eastern devs, for the most part, don't seem that concerned with constantly pushing the best graphics. Of course, that gives the Wii the exact opposite problem in Jaqpan, since Handhelds are so much more appealing...

It's not like the A-Teams of developers in Japan are jumping on the Wii gravy train. They like high technology just like they do in the west. You're more likely to see a Japanese developer go PS3 than Wii these days.

 

[ivysaur12]

Well, that's more Western developers. Eastern devs, for the most part, don't seem that concerned with constantly pushing the best graphics. Of course, that gives the Wii the exact opposite problem in Jaqpan, since Handhelds are so much more appealing...

You're right, sorry. I was talking about Western developers.

It's not like the A-Teams of developers in Japan are jumping on the Wii gravy train. They like high technology just like they do in the west. You're more likely to see a Japanese developer go PS3 than Wii these days.

The Japanese A-teams are honestly going to go DS these days. Unless it's S-E. And even then, look at DQ.

 

[selig]

At some point you guys are going to run out of excuses as to why each game continues to flop. After 3 years the only answer anyone can bring to the table is still Resident Evil 4. What about Silent Hill then? That was a ground up quality "core" Wii game with a strong brand attached and it still bombed. The market for these games is elsewhere, I suggest you make the move yourself.

god, this is so stupid. It´s like you take the news "it bombed", but ignore anything else about this game´s release. Keep trollin´...

 

[Pureauthor]

It's not like the A-Teams of developers in Japan are jumping on the Wii gravy train. They like high technology just like they do in the west. You're more likely to see a Japanese developer go PS3 than Wii these days.

Adn we're more likely to see them go DS then either, which ties in to my point.

 

[Nirolak]

Everyone of those titles was considered a big release by their publisher. That cannot be said for any of those Wii titles you mentioned.

To be fair, Konami insisted that Silent Hill was a very major release for them: http://www.mcvuk.com/news/36949/Shattered-Memories-most-important-Silent-Hill-release-to-date

Shattered Memories ‘most important’ Silent Hill release to date

...

Konami is putting its full marketing weight behind Shattered Memories, hoping that the expected positive reviews will raise awareness of the game’s arrival in the same way the US press did.

 

[Grampa Simpson]

I dunno, didn't Nintendo pay Capcom a load of money to get RE4 on Gamecube months before the PS2 version or something? And didn't it pay off really well for Nintendo?(This is just something I thought I heard at one time)

Actually, everything that I've heard says that they had supposedly bought real exclusivity. The version of the story that plays out in my head has a clause in the exclusivity contract that states that Nintendo has to make a certain amount of market penetration to keep the exclusivity, and that since they didn't, so Capcom started porting the game. The part that makes it go from an 'oh well' situation to a 'those fuckers' situation is that Capcom announced the PS2 port a week before the release of the Gamecube version.

I think that this may have been the first "Betrayalton".

 

[EDarkness]

Adn we're more likely to see them go DS then either, which ties in to my point.

Well, I'm talking about games like Tekken, Soul Calibur, Biohazard, Dead Rising, Devil May Cry, etc. Not seeing much love on the Wii and not many of those games on the DS, either. If they have choices, the Wii is the odd man out. Which is what I was getting at.

 

[hellclerk]

To be fair, Konami insisted that Silent Hill was a very major release for them: http://www.mcvuk.com/news/36949/Shattered-Memories-most-important-Silent-Hill-release-to-date

News to me. I guess that just means they're pushing it in Euro-land. And, with appropriate marketing maneuvers, watch the sales rise accordingly...

Actually, everything that I've heard says that they had supposedly bought real exclusivity. The version of the story that plays out in my head has a clause in the exclusivity contract that states that Nintendo has to make a certain amount of market penetration to keep the exclusivity, and that since they didn't, so Capcom started porting the game. The part that makes it go from an 'oh well' situation to a 'those fuckers' situation is that Capcom announced the PS2 port a week before the release of the Gamecube version.

I think that this may have been the first "Betrayalton".

No, the first Betrayalton was committed by Nintendo themselves back during the SNES years when they flat backed out of that contract with Sony (which, provided was a pretty raw deal that SOMEONE got fired over). Then it was FF games on Playstation, and THEN it was the Capcom 5 debacle.

 

[legend166]

To be fair, Konami insisted that Silent Hill was a very major release for them: http://www.mcvuk.com/news/36949/Shattered-Memories-most-important-Silent-Hill-release-to-date

There was also a quote where they came out and specifically said they would be doing no television advertising, though. Plus from all reports it's pretty damn hard to find the game in stores.

 

[hellclerk]

There was also a quote where they came out and specifically said they would be doing no television advertising, though. Plus from all reports it's pretty damn hard to find the game in stores.

Thats for the US. I'm pretty certain this is coming from a UK/Europe/Australia POV. Note the news site.

EDIT: some Google searching shows the exec in question is indeed from the UK, so it looks like Konami is going to push the game across the pond and potentially in the US as well.

 

[Effect]

Thats for the US. I'm pretty certain this is coming from a UK/Europe/Australia POV. Note the news site.

EDIT: some Google searching shows the exec in question is indeed from the UK, so it looks like Konami is going to push the game across the pond and potentially in the US as well.

Maybe in the UK and other places. However that ship has sailed in the US. The game is already out and they did nothing at all for it.

 

[Htown]

When you play that game with "HD" titles, you'll find plenty of games that could have just as easily have been excused for under performance, stuff like Borderlands, Dead Space, Darksiders, Bayonetta, Bioshock and Saints Row were far from a guaranteed success yet all managed to find their market. The two RE lightgun games games, HOTD: Overkill, Dead Space, Silent Hill, The Conduit, surely one of those should have pulled respectable numbers?

How do lightgun games usually sell compared to first/third person shooters? Silent Hill and the Conduit I might give you, but four of the six potential "big third party" games were lightgun games, and three of THOSE were spinoffs of series that don't have a main series entry on the platform from this generation. Again, what if Nintendo released Link's Crossbow Training on the 360? How do you think it would sell?

And the Conduit was a new shooter IP from a relatively unknown developer (who needed IGN's help to even get a publisher, remember) that didn't really have any big hook to it other than that it was on the Wii and HEY GUYS THERE AREN'T A LOT OF SHOOTERS HERE YOU SHOULD BUY THIS ONE.

I know, I know, we're supposed to look at the "overall picture", but this IS the overall picture. Third parties (in the west) just don't put the same effort (note that I didn't say budget) behind their Wii games as they do on the PS360 games. They pretty much haven't done it for the entirety of this generation, at least in the core space. They put out spinoffs and test games over and over, and release niche titles and wonder why they don't sell millions. Let's be real here.

 

[hellclerk]

Maybe in the UK and other places. However that ship has sailed in the US. The game is already out and they did nothing at all for it.

There's always the chance for retrospective marketing. It just makes it easier that the game is out now, as opposed to making people wait a long time for it. It's done wonders for games like Carnival Games. Think long tail dude, long tail.

 

[jrricky]

Is pachter still here?

If he is, what do you think of Ubisoft, Namco and EAs reasoning of putting Assasins Creed, Soul Calibur, Dante's Inferno, and Army Of Two on the PSP and not Wii?

This alone makes me go !Que!

 

[onipex]

What third parties should do now is give up. Good quality third party games are on the Wii , but good luck trying to find them if you don't visit game websites almost everyday. Third parties do a pretty crappy job of letting Wii owners know that their games are out there.

As a consumer I don't even want to buy their games at full price anymore. Not just their Wii games either.

 

[Grampa Simpson]

Is pachter still here?

If he is, what do you think of Ubisoft, Namco and EAs reasoning of putting Assasins Creed, Soul Calibur, Dante's Inferno, and Army Of Two on the PSP and not Wii?

This alone makes me go !Que!

Quoting so hopefully we get an answer out of him.

 

[Version 3.0]

There was also a quote where they came out and specifically said they would be doing no television advertising, though. Plus from all reports it's pretty damn hard to find the game in stores.

Here's my anecdotal 2 cents: I didn't know the game had released until a while after it did--I think I found out in the NPD thread when people were requesting its sales data. Last week I stopped by Fry's to pick it up. They didn't have it. But they did have Spirit Tracks on sale, so I got that instead. Now it's on the "pick up someday" list again.

 

[hellclerk]

Here's my anecdotal 2 cents: I didn't know the game had released until a while after it did--I think I found out in the NPD thread when people were requesting its sales data. Last week I stopped by Fry's to pick it up. They didn't have it. But they did have Spirit Tracks on sale, so I got that instead. Now it's on the "pick up someday" list again.

Damnit, just go to amazon. Here's a link to the game. It's in stock: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B002CZ3SLO/?tag=neogaf0e-20

And yes, Shattered Memories is an example of a game that could do well, but doesn't due to a severe lack of mainstream exposure. SM has the potential to be a mainstream success, but with how Konami of America is handling it, it certainly won't be.

 

[Margalis]

I made a comment on Bonus Round that half the Wii audience is hard core and half is purely casual. That split sounds pretty agressive, and the data above suggests it's more like 25/75.

Given that NeoGAF is a hard core site, I'm curious to hear your spin. What should publishers do?

The first thing publishers and analysts should do is figure out that "casual" is not a genre, a demographic, a segment of the buying audience, a useful product description or anything else meaningful.

I really, really, really don't get why most publishers and analysts don't bother to think about WHO is buying these games and WHY. There's probably a reason why Cabela sold well beyond "lulz casual gamers." Was it the placement on store shelves? The subject matter? The price? The branding? Deer Hunter was a perennial best-seller on the PC and I never saw any explanation for that either beyond "lulz hunting games", there was never even an attempt to examine why it sold.

Identify a target audience, make a good product for that target audience, let the target audience know about it. Same as any other business. What should publishers do? Take a basic class in how businesses based around selling products work?

I just checked Amazon, the newest Cabela is rated the same as DSE and has more reviews.

I really like the big orange shotgun and think it works well. Gives you more of a "Big Buck Hunter" arcade game feel.

Nearly every review includes something similar to the above. It's almost as if the makers thought a little bit about what would make it a fun experience, maybe did something totally crazy like a little testing, then gave the audience what it wanted. Amazing!

Who would have thought that making products people want is a critical part of the formula?

Just Dance is higher rated than DSE and has 4x the number of reviews. Here's text from the first Amazon review:

Bought this game for the kids based on the commercial showing all the activity and the songs. Told my wife we had to try it out first and she balked because it was late, after the kids were in bed. I nagged she gave in I lasted 3 songs she danced every song until 2 in the morning. She had so much fun the game never made it under the Xmas tree. The next day the whole family had a blast. That night friends came over and danced for 3 hours. I'm taking it to the company Xmas party.

They saw it advertised, they bought it, they loved it, and they told their friends about it.

Gee it sure is a total mystery why Just Dance is selling well!

Second review:

While the game play mimics Guitar Hero or Dance Dance Revolution style games, one thing sets this game apart: if you're not good at matching the dance moves, the song (and the game) keep going. You don't get interrupted, or have the song get cut short because you miss a certain number of moves.

Note that this consumer is not a "casual" idiot, they are aware of competing products and like this one better because IT IS BETTER DESIGNED AND MORE FUN FOR THEM.

Probably over half the reviews mention that it's a fun workout, and over half mention that some family member other than the buyer enjoys playing or watching.

So yeah, maybe Just Dance doing well isn't so impossible to fathom. Just because it isn't on the radar of teen male XBL shooter fans doesn't mean that it isn't pleasing a certain audience. If you look at the reviews it's clear that not only does it appeal on a conceptual level to a large audience but it also delivers a good product to them.

 

[NeoUltima]

It's one thing to say something should be marketed to the mainstream, but another altogether to actually accomplish it in a way that will lead to significantly more sales.

I'll not go into your other points, since we've already discussed this and you'll just continue to misunderstand me.

Irregardless, as to the bolded, this has already been done, and failed at. So called "casual" games that had solid initial showings have depreciating sales over releases. Ubisoft alone has 4 of 5 failed titles aimed at the new audience for every Just Dance (which by the way is a decent game WITH a very impressive marketing campaign). If it was as easy as "just make casual games", Ubisoft would be making hand over fist and EA would be selling so much Madden All Play. They're not though, because those low budget "casual" games aren't the kinds of cash cows you're making them out to be.

Shit, these fucking 500 errors...

I think you misunderstand when I say low-budget. I don't mean shovelware. If you are implying those 4 out 5 casual games are failures, I don't even want to think about how bad it is for core games. I mean 'low' compared to what it would cost to produce a high budget core game. You yourself say that 3rd parties are not trying to make good core games on Wii, while I wouldn't totally disagree with that, a good core game will invariably involve a higher budget. I believe MadWorld was considered a good game was it not? Yet it bombed(I'll admit I don't recall the marketing behind it, so you can argue this if it pleases you). I do not make out all casual game out all out to be "cash cows". However, with their generally lower budgets they are less risky. Not to mention that is what the Wii audience has generally shown interest in.


Even if by some sort stroke of luck you are right and there are millions of Wii owners laying dormant for that AAA 3rd party core game, there is no evidence to support it. No publisher will take on an enormous risk like that when there is a large proven core market elsewhere. Even if there are enough core games to make a game somewhat profitable on Wii, that is irrelevant. Companies don't have unlimited resources. Any rational company will allocate their resources as efficient as possible. No reason to make a Wii game if evidence shows you can make more on 360/ps3/pc. (opportunity costs)

As for me misunderstanding what you said in the other thread...I don't think I did. I'll run through it again. The only way I could have misunderstood was if your original one audience argument was something as trivial as, and I quote your last post "When discussing the Wii audience, the only other qualifier is that they all own a Wii and are interested in purchasing games for it"...That's basically the definition of an overall market, the overall audience. In order for your one audience theory to hold water, there would have to be no distinct segments in the Wii market, namely that there isn't anyone that primarily buy casual games, or that primarily buy hardcore games. Of course, the casual and hardcore segments are not mutually exclusive, there are gray areas.

(ultimately this audience discussion is not that important, what matters are the sales at the bottom line)

Back to your original post:

The Wii market is not NEARLY as cut and dry as people would think, but it IS reachable via appropriate marketing. The majority of people, myself included, typically ignore internet banner ads and magazine ads. They need video advertising on youtube and television as these are the two most effective methods of reaching the widest audience. Furthermore, I don't think that the downstream market is necessarily exclusive to downstream games like "Let's Dance" and it's ilk, it's just that consumers don't generally lose interest in genres they like, so while Soccer Mom Cathy has discovered the excitement and drama of The Legend of Zelda and Tales of Symphonia: DotNW, she'll still like and enjoy Wii Fit Plus and Wii Sports Resort. In addition, Jake the teenage son is going to enjoy Call of Duty: Modern Warfare and Pro Evolution Soccer, Jill the younger daughter will still like Harvest Moon and Endless Ocean, and Dad will get his kicks in with some nostalgic Virtual Console and Tales of Monkey Island. And then maybe once a week they all get together to try and tackle another level of New Super Mario Bros Wii or a family jam in Guitar Hero. The truth is that the Wii is a FAMILY console in every respect, but family doesn't immediately mean 'child-friendly', it means accessible to every member of the family, no matter the interests. Each household with a Wii will theoretically contain several different potential demographics. They just need to be reached, because quite honestly, they probably all don't pay as close attention to game releases as us enthusiasts on this site. They need to be GIVEN a reason to buy the games, not completely ignored and hope that they see them on the shelf and buy them. $50 is NOT an impulse buy.

Those bolded statements...You seem to be saying all it takes for the soccer mom to buy NMH is advertising. I'll say this again: "Somebody that likes to play Wii Fit doesn't necessarily want to play No More Heros. Just like I like to play Uncharted 2 but couldn't give a rats ass about Wii Fit. It's no different. They buy what they think is fun, I buy what I think is fun. It's like somebody advertising a tampon to a guy. They have no use for it."

You are implying that ads breaks down the barriers between market segments. Yeah...maybe in every advertisers dream.

As for you family console theory being indicative of the entire market...You seem to be trying to say that every family has a member that is 'into' certain games. That is true for some families. But first of all, only ~55% of households have what could be somewhat considered a family(2 or more members)(2000 census). I believe there was data once that said 5x% of Wii owners had children(sorry off memory). Add on to that not everyone keeps their Wii in the living room. Then, not everyone in the household even uses the Wii for casual games, yet alone for core games. Most families as well probably would not be too happy with "Jake" taking up the TV slicing fools up in MadWorld. If a family buys it as a tool for their family to use, chances are they will stick to family friendly(which tend to be casual) games. I am sure there are some, many in fact, instances in which your "family console" is true. However you cannot confidently conclude that it is a common enough occurrence for it to be extrapolated to the entire market...I mean, do you normally play your Wii in the living room at your parents house? It's an interesting theory and it sounds nice, but it is not realistic.

Perhaps most importantly...The majority of people purchase a Wii for its casual nature(motion control, simple and innovative games like Wii Sports). That's what Wii is known for, that's its allure, that's why it's so popular and successful. It only makes sense that people will purchase games that are in line with the reason they purchased the console in the first place. No amount of advertising is going to change somebody's mind if they are not in the target segment.

Perhaps as a hardcore gamer ,who I assume games primarily on Wii, you take offense when someone calls Wii a "casual console"...You shouldn't let that bother you. There's nothing wrong with casual games at all. It's just a very broad category of games that Wii happens to excel at. It's not a negative term.
Should you be upset that publishers aren't releasing more core content? As a gamer you should, sure(even I am, as a gamer). But you need to realize there are reasons they aren't. They don't have a vendetta against us, they just need to serve the market where it appears the majority of core gamers reside...Ultimately they have to make the best decisions with the limited knowledge they have. If that tells them to not release core games(or any games in general) on Wii, regardless if there are unknown unknowns out there that would make the Wii a better candidate, so be it. You make the best decisions you can with the information at hand.


Now I typed this up rather hurriedly...don't focus on little errors or 'heated' statements(I respect you for having a viewpoint at all, don't take offense) or little individual things. Just keep in mind the big picture. View the whole situation from a publishers perspective, and think what you would do in their situation. If after this post, and Pachter's OP, you still have the same opinion...very well.

 

[boiled goose]

INot to mention that is what the Wii audience has generally shown interest in.

Mario Kart Wii and NSMBwii are core games. Both wil probably outsell wii fit by the time the generation is over. Not saying that Mario's recognition didnt play a role, but there is a huge market for traditional games. What the hell is more "traditional" than a 2D platformer? NSMBwii is not Wii sports resort nor Wii fit. My mom, sister, and dad can play those games, yet don't really enjoy NSMBwii. They sure as hell could not learn how to play Mario Kart.

Even if there are enough core games to make a game somewhat profitable on Wii, that is irrelevant. Companies don't have unlimited resources. Any rational company will allocate their resources as efficient as possible. No reason to make a Wii game if evidence shows you can make more on 360/ps3/pc. (opportunity costs)

This is a good point. It is true on an individual developer/publisher level. However.... many of these companies are losing money! As an industry, there should be better allocation of resources. Won't happen though, because there is incomplete information. (secretive development etc.) incomplete information and individual actors leads to overdevelopment for HD consoles, and not enough big games on wii which leaves money on the table.

As for you family console theory being indicative of the entire market...You seem to be trying to say that every family has a member that is 'into' certain games. That is true for some families. But first of all, only ~55% of households have what could be somewhat considered a family(2 or more members)(2000 census). I believe there was data once that said 5x% of Wii owners had children(sorry off memory). Add on to that not everyone keeps their Wii in the living room. Then, not everyone in the household even uses the Wii for casual games, yet alone for core games. Most families as well probably would not be too happy with "Jake" taking up the TV slicing fools up in MadWorld. If a family buys it as a tool for their family to use, chances are they will stick to family friendly(which tend to be casual) games. I am sure there are some, many in fact, instances in which your "family console" is true. However you cannot confidently conclude that it is a common enough occurrence for it to be extrapolated to the entire market...I mean, do you normally play your Wii in the living room at your parents house? It's an interesting theory and it sounds nice, but it is not realistic.

Family friendly is fine. The difference is developers think that family friendly is the same as trash. Nintendo develops its casual and family friendly games with its AAA teams. Third parties sure as hell dont do that. Quality Family friendly and multiplayer games have done well on wii. Shaun white, music games, tiger woods, lego star wars, etc.

Notice they dont have to be shovelware or casual to be succesful.

 

[hellclerk]

Oh boy...

You really have no idea what you're talking about. I do have data to support my hypothesis (year+ old data from Nintendo. I don't have the time looking through their conference slides from the past three years though, sorry). And this would be data that wouldn't change much over the years). You don't. My hypothesis has to do with explaining the sales of the the alleged "casual" games and games with long tails (families don't necessarily buy what's brand new) and the realities of neglected potential genre markets. The only reason we don't have any data for these potential buyers, and that includes you by the way, is because no one's tried to reach out to them. For this reason, I have said that greater advertising should be done across the board for new games from 3rd parties. In addition, they should stop treating the games like "tests" beyond understanding what exactly the reaction to their release was. Dead Space Extraction's reaction was poor due to poor outreach to potential consumers and a poor core concept for consumers to be interested in. Not the case with Just Dance. I watched some of the commercials and now even I kind of want it. Am I now suddenly a casual gamer? Should I cancel my order for No More Heroes now and buy Wii Fit instead? No, because my interest in a mainstream game does not change the values I seek in gaming.

You have no significant data to back up your claims. There's nothing saying that Jake's parents would or would not approve of him playing Madworld because he's a fictional construct I used to apply sample consumer values to. In addition, your comparisons with NMH2 and UC2 are unfair as well. NMH is a niche game with a niche abstract presentation made by a niche studio funded by a niche Japanese publisher produced by eccentric and very niche developer given no mainstream media advertising support all Rated M, while Uncharted is a 1st party Sony title made by a mainstream developer with a mainstream presentation and a multi-million dollar mainstream ad campaign all rated T. Someone who plays No More Heroes isn't necessarily going to want to play Uncharted, and vis versa. Is it a risk to make a higher budget game for the Wii? Sure it is! Was it a risk to go modern with Call of Duty? A risk to put all that money behind a new IP like Assassin's Creed? A risk to put the Wii out to market in the first place? Fuck yes, and look where they are now. Risk brings reward, but you can't go half-way on it. Sometimes it'll work and sometimes it won't, but being as risk adverse as they are with the Wii, I am shocked and appalled that 3rd parties haven't just curled up into a fetal position and started crying.

This isn't about risk or market predictability, because we've determined that the "predictable" HD market is insufficient for games to be significantly profitable in. This is about developers swallowing their pride, admitting they've fucked up, and trying to fix it. The answer is not necessarily to throw all money into the Wii, but rather to look at the games marketplace from the consumer point of view; ask why rather than what, ask how rather than if. I don't have the business credentials to say for certain what 3rd parties should do about the Wii for certain, but if some literature academic is thinking more proactively about a market he has no real stake in than those paid to do so, then where the fuck is my paycheck for analyst services?

EDIT: I should really stop doing this. I don't have the energy to argue with you over the bullshit you spew all hours of the night. I find you're looking at things from the worst point of view possible, but let's just agree to disagree.

 

[Grampa Simpson]

So.... When does Nintendo release it's quarterly financial statement?

 

[Nirolak]

So.... When does Nintendo release it's quarterly financial statement?

Thursday: http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/schedule/index.html

"Jan. 28, 2010 Third Quarter Earnings Release [Scheduled]"

 

[Grampa Simpson]

Thursday: http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/schedule/index.html

"Jan. 28, 2010 Third Quarter Earnings Release [Scheduled]"

Will give us something new to talk about in these damn threads.

 

[hellclerk]

Thursday: http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/schedule/index.html

"Jan. 28, 2010 Third Quarter Earnings Release [Scheduled]"

ooo, exciting...

 

[selig]

Those bolded statements...You seem to be saying all it takes for the soccer mom to buy NMH is advertising. I'll say this again: "Somebody that likes to play Wii Fit doesn't necessarily want to play No More Heros. Just like I like to play Uncharted 2 but couldn't give a rats ass about Wii Fit. It's no different. They buy what they think is fun, I buy what I think is fun. It's like somebody advertising a tampon to a guy. They have no use for it."

You are implying that ads breaks down the barriers between market segments. Yeah...maybe in every advertisers dream.

The Wii has the most diverse audience. There are soccer moms, grandparents, young children, "girls and women", but also core- and hardcore-gamers. And the install base is big enough to grant every part of this audience its fair share.

No, a soccer mom wont be buying <NMH2 due to advertising...but a casual gamer like most of my rl friends might take notice of it, think "hey, thats cool" and buy it. This whole argument that the Wii-audience is a single kind is just mind baffeling stupid.

 

[Nirolak]

Will give us something new to talk about in these damn threads.

Since the comparisons are inevitable, Microsoft also reports this Thursday, while Sony is reporting next Thursday, February 4th.

Edit:

And for third parties:

Capcom: February 1st
Namco: February 2nd
THQ: February 3rd
Warner: February 3rd
Konami: February 4th
EA: February 8th
Ubisoft: February 9th
Disney: February 9th
Square Enix: "Early February"
Sega: I'm having issues finding it on their site. Perhaps they haven't announced it yet.

Activision and Take-Two work on slightly different fiscal years so they're not reporting that soon.

 

[hellclerk]

Since the comparisons are inevitable, Microsoft also reports this Thursday, while Sony is reporting next Thursday, February 4th.

Edit:

And for third parties:

Capcom: February 1st
Konami: February 4th
EA: February 8th
Ubisoft: February 9th
Sega: I'm having issues finding it on their site. Perhaps they haven't announced it yet.

Activision and Take-Two work on slightly different fiscal years so they're not reporting that soon.

EA and Ubisoft are going to be the fun ones...

 

[Son of Godzilla]

The Wii has the most diverse audience. There are soccer moms, grandparents, young children, "girls and women", but also core- and hardcore-gamers. And the install base is big enough to grant every part of this audience its fair share.

No, a soccer mom wont be buying <NMH2 due to advertising...but a casual gamer like most of my rl friends might take notice of it, think "hey, thats cool" and buy it. This whole argument that the Wii-audience is a single kind is just mind baffeling stupid.

People still believe this segmented audience crap? If it existed, it's buying power would be represented. And screw the excuses, even Nintendo can't make stuff aimed only at teenagers work.

 

[Nirolak]

Updated the list a bit more. Am I missing any major public publishers? I was thinking there were more at first, but since Eidos and Midway got bought, I don't think there are.

 

[boiled goose]

People still believe this segmented audience crap? If it existed, it's buying power would be represented. And screw the excuses, even Nintendo can't make stuff aimed only at teenagers work.

Most of their games do have a broader target, and that is not their strongest market but what about Zelda? Im sure that the next iteration will also do great numbers.

 

[Lonely1]

People still believe this segmented audience crap? If it existed, it's buying power would be represented. And screw the excuses, even Nintendo can't make stuff aimed only at teenagers work.

Um, what exactly are you arguing here? Anyway, someone must be buying all those CoD Wii games.

 

[farnham]

Is pachter still here?

If he is, what do you think of Ubisoft, Namco and EAs reasoning of putting Assasins Creed, Soul Calibur, Dante's Inferno, and Army Of Two on the PSP and not Wii?

This alone makes me go !Que!

This..!!! Soul Calibur 2 on GC sold more then the PS2 version... I get SC 3 being on PS2 only because of some exclusivity deal and SC4 being on HD only because its an HD game.. but SC PSP ??? why didnt they throw in Link again and make millions of it..? (Guess Nintendo said fuck it this time around)

Of course some Soul Calibur game came out on the Wii (and i hear its much better then most of the stuff that comes out on the wii nowadays)... but thats once again a spinoff with limited appeal