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[Zzoram]

‘Too Asian’?

By Stephanie Findlay and Nicholas Kohler | November 10th, 2010 | 9:55 am

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A term used in the U.S. to talk about racial imbalance at Ivy league schools is now being whispered on Canadian campuses.

When Alexandra and her friend Rachel, both graduates of Toronto’s Havergal College, an all-girls private school, were deciding which university to go to, they didn’t even bother considering the University of Toronto. “The only people from our school who went to U of T were Asian,” explains Alexandra, a second-year student who looks like a girl from an Aritzia billboard. “All the white kids,” she says, “go to Queen’s, Western and McGill.”

Alexandra eventually chose the University of Western Ontario. Her younger brother, now a high school senior deciding where he’d like to go, will head “either east, west or to McGill”—unusual academic options, but in keeping with what he wants from his university experience. “East would suit him because it’s chill, out west he could be a ski bum,” says Alexandra, who explains her little brother wants to study hard, but is also looking for a good time—which rules out U of T, a school with an academic reputation that can be a bit of a killjoy.

Or, as Alexandra puts it—she asked that her real name not be used in this article, and broached the topic of race at universities hesitantly—a “reputation of being Asian.”

Discussing the role that race plays in the self-selecting communities that more and more characterize university campuses makes many people uncomfortable. Still, an “Asian” school has come to mean one that is so academically focused that some students feel they can no longer compete or have fun. Indeed, Rachel, Alexandra and her brother belong to a growing cohort of student that’s eschewing some big-name schools over perceptions that they’re “too Asian.” It’s a term being used in some U.S. academic circles to describe a phenomenon that’s become such a cause for concern to university admissions officers and high school guidance counsellors that several elite universities to the south have faced scandals in recent years over limiting Asian applicants and keeping the numbers of white students artificially high.

Although university administrators here are loath to discuss the issue, students talk about it all the time. “Too Asian” is not about racism, say students like Alexandra: many white students simply believe that competing with Asians—both Asian Canadians and international students—requires a sacrifice of time and freedom they’re not willing to make. They complain that they can’t compete for spots in the best schools and can’t party as much as they’d like (too bad for them, most will say). Asian kids, meanwhile, say they are resented for taking the spots of white kids. “At graduation a Canadian—i.e. ‘white’—mother told me that I’m the reason her son didn’t get a space in university and that all the immigrants in the country are taking up university spots,” says Frankie Mao, a 22-year-old arts student at the University of British Columbia. “I knew it was wrong, being generalized in this category,” says Mao, “but f–k, I worked hard for it.”

That Asian students work harder is a fact born out by hard data. They tend to be strivers, high achievers and single-minded in their approach to university. Stephen Hsu, a physics prof at the University of Oregon who has written about the often subtle forms of discrimination faced by Asian-American university applicants, describes them as doing “disproportionately well—they tend to have high SAT scores, good grades in high school, and a lot of them really want to go to top universities.” In Canada, say Canadian high school guidance counsellors, that means the top-tier post-secondary institutions with international profiles specializing in math, science and business: U of T, UBC and the University of Waterloo. White students, by contrast, are more likely to choose universities and build their school lives around social interaction, athletics and self-actualization—and, yes, alcohol. When the two styles collide, the result is separation rather than integration.

The dilemma is this: Canadian institutions operate as pure meritocracies when it comes to admissions, and admirably so. Privately, however, many in the education community worry that universities risk becoming too skewed one way, changing campus life—a debate that’s been more or less out in the open in the U.S. for years but remains muted here. And that puts Canadian universities in a quandary. If they openly address the issue of race they expose themselves to criticisms that they are profiling and committing an injustice. If they don’t, Canada’s universities, far from the cultural mosaics they’re supposed to be—oases of dialogue, mutual understanding and diversity—risk becoming places of many solitudes, deserts of non-communication. It’s a tough question to have to think about.

Asian-Canadian students are far more likely to talk about and assert their ethnic identities than white students. “I’m Asian,” going back to Confucius, of social mobility based on merit.” Demographics contribute to the high degree of academic success among Asian- Canadian students. “Our highly selective immigration process means that we get many highly educated parents, so they have similar aspirations for their children,” says Robert Sweet, a retired Lakehead University education prof who has studied the parenting styles of immigrants as they relate to education. Sweet’s latest study, “Post-high school pathways of immigrant youth,” released last month, found that more than 70 per cent of students in the Toronto District School Board who immigrated from East Asia went on to university, compared to 52 per cent of Europeans, the next highest group, and 12 per cent of Caribbean, the lowest. This is in contrast to English-speaking Toronto students born in Canada—of which just 42 per cent confirmed admission to university.

Diane Bondy, a recently retired Ottawa area guidance counsellor, notes that by the end of her 20-year career, competition among some Asian parents had reached a fever pitch. “Asian parents do their homework and the students are going to U of T or they’re going to Queen’s,” says Bondy, who points out that “Asians get more support from their parents financially and academically.” She also observed that the focus on academics was often to the exclusion of social interaction. “The kids were getting 98 per cent but they didn’t have other skills,” she says. “Their parents would come in and write in the resumé letters that they were in clubs. But the kids weren’t able to do anything in those clubs because they were academically focused.” says 21-year-old Susie Su, a third-year student at UBC’s Sauder School of Business. “I do have traditional Asian parents. I feel the pressure of finding a good job and raising a good family.” That pressure helps shape more than just the way Su handles study and school assignments; it shapes the way she interacts with her colleagues. “If I feel like it’s going to be an event where it’s all white people, I probably wouldn’t want to go,” she says. “There’s a lot of just drinking. It’s not that I don’t like white people. But you tend to hang out with people of the same race.”

Catherine Costigan, a psychology assistant prof at the University of Victoria, says it’s unsurprising that Asian students are segregated from “mainstream” campus life. She cites studies that show Chinese youth are bullied more than their non-Asian peers. As a so-called “model minority,” they are more frequently targeted because of being “too smart” and “teachers’ pets.” To counter peer ostracism and resentment, Costigan says Chinese students reaffirm their ethnicity.

The value of education has been drilled into Asian students by their parents, likely for cultural and socio-economic reasons. “It’s often described that Asians are the new Jews,” says Jon Reider, director of college counselling at San Francisco University High School and a former Stanford University admissions officer. “That in the face of discrimination, what you do is you study. And there’s a long tradition in Chinese culture, for example, going back to Confucius, of social mobility based on merit.”

Students can carry that narrow scope into university, where they risk alienating their more fun-loving peers. The division is perhaps most extreme at Waterloo, where students have dubbed the MC and DC buildings—the Mathematics & Computer Building and the William G. Davis Computer Research Centre, respectively—“mainland China” and “downtown China,” and where some students told Maclean’s they can go for days without speaking English. Writes one Waterloo mathematics graduate on an online forum: “I once had a tutorial session for the whole class where the TA got frustrated with speaking English and started giving the answer in Mandarin. A lot of the class understood his answer.”

“My dad said if you don’t go into engineering, I won’t pay your tuition,” says Jason Yin, a Taiwanese software engineering student at Waterloo. “They are very traditional. They believe school is about work, studying, go home and studying some more.” Hard-studying Waterloo lends itself particularly to those goals. “We had a problem getting students out of their bedrooms,” says Nikki Best, a former residence don who sits on Waterloo’s student government, who explains they “didn’t want to get behind in their grades because of coming out to social events.” [Nikki Best said her quote was taken out of context, she was referring to students in general not just Asian students]

That’s not to say Asian students form any sort of monolithic presence on Canadian campuses. “The mainland China group tends to stick together,” says Anthony Wong, 19, a Waterloo software engineering student. “We can talk to them,” says Jonathan Ing, also 19 and in Waterloo’s software engineering program, “but we don’t mingle.” Complains Waterloo student Simon Wang, a Chinese national who is frustrated by the segregation at Waterloo: “Why bother to come to Canada and pay five times as much to speak Chinese?” Meanwhile, Calgarian Joyce Chau identifies as “completely whitewashed,” a “banana”: “I look Asian but I’m white in all other respects.” Chau, a 19-year-old UBC business student, lived in residence her first year, where she met the majority of her (white) friends. “It’s harder to integrate into a group with Asians—you may or may not get introduced,” says Chau, who accepts the segregation as just “part of the university experience.”

Such balkanization is reflected in official student organizations: there is little Asian representation on student government, campus newspapers or college radio stations. At UBC, where the student body is roughly 40 per cent Asian, not one Asian sits on the student executive. Same goes for Waterloo. Asian students do, however, participate in organizations beyond the university mainstream, and long-standing cultural clubs function as a sort of ad hoc government. “After you graduate you won’t care about student government, but you’ll care about your club,” says Stan He, president of the Dragon Seed Connection, an on-campus Chinese club with over 300 members. (His business cards feature both dragon and robot motifs.) The Dragon Seed offers its members social functions, tutoring help, volunteer opportunities, poker and mah-jong tournaments, and special holiday parties—including at Halloween and Christmas. It even has an exclusive partnership with Solid Entertainment, a promotions and events-planning company that sponsors massive fundraising events and gives Dragon Seed exclusive selling rights on campus. He says that the dozen or so Asian clubs at UBC serve well over 4,000 students and cater to the whole spectrum of cultural identification— from “whitewashed” to “Honger,” a once pejorative term now adopted by students with Hong Kong backgrounds. The Dragon Seed lies somewhere in between—“We’re the middle ground,” He says. “We have international students, but we all speak English.”

Or take the Chinese Varsity Club. With upwards of 500 members, it’s the largest student social club at UBC. The executives say they’ve captured a niche market: Chinese commuter students from the outlying Richmond, Burnaby and North Vancouver communities who hope to find a social network at the big school. “Students from high school already hear about us from older brothers and sisters,” says Peter Yang, the 21-year-old accounting student who is the club’s VP external. “You want to break out of the cycle of studying and being lonely,” says Brian Cheung, its president.

The impact of high admissions rates for Asian students has been an issue for years in the U.S., where high school guidance counsellors have come to accept that it’s just more difficult to sell their Asian applicants to elite colleges. In 2006, at its annual meeting, the National Association for College Admission Counseling explored the issue in an expert panel discussion called “Too Asian?” One panellist, Rachel Cederberg—an Asian-American then working as an admissions official at Colorado College—described fellow admissions officers complaining of “yet another Asian student who wants to major in math and science and who plays the violin.” A Boston Globe article early this year asked, “Do colleges redline Asian-Americans?” and concluded there’s likely an “Asian ceiling” at elite U.S. universities. After California passed Proposition 209 in 1996 forbidding affirmative action in the state’s public dealings, Asians soared to 40 per cent of the population at public universities, even though they make up just 13 per cent of state residents. And U.S. studies suggest Ivy League schools have taken the issue of Asian academic prowess so seriously that they’ve operated with secret quotas for decades to maintain their WASP credentials.

In his 2009 book No Longer Separate, Not Yet Equal, Princeton University sociologist Thomas Espenshade surveyed 10 elite U.S. universities and found that Asian applicants needed an extra 140 points on their SAT scores to be on equal footing with white applicants. Scandals over such unfair admissions practices have surfaced in recent years at Stanford, Harvard University, the University of California at Berkeley and elsewhere. Hsu, the Oregon physicist, draws a comparison between Asian-Americans and Jewish students who began arriving at the Ivy League in the first half of the last century. “You can find well-documented internal discussions at places like Harvard and Yale and Princeton about why we shouldn’t admit these people, they’re working so hard and they’re so obviously ambitious, but we want to keep our WASP [white anglo-saxon protestant] pedigree here.”

To quell the influx of Jewish students, Ivy League schools abandoned their meritocratic admissions processes in favour of one that focused on the details of an applicant’s private life—questions about race, religion, even about the maiden name of an applicant’s mother. Schools also began looking at such intangibles as character, personality and leadership potential. Canadian universities, apart from highly competitive professional programs and faculties, don’t quiz applicants the same way, and rely entirely on transcripts. Likely that is a good thing. And yet, that meritocratic process results, especially in Canada’s elite university programs, in a concentration of Asian students.

The upshot is that race is defining Canadian university campuses in a way it did not 25 years ago. Diversity has enriched these schools, but it has also put them at risk of being increasingly fractured along ethnic lines. It’s a superficial form of multiculturalism that is expressed in the main through segregated, self-selecting, discrete communities. It would behoove the leadership of our universities to recognize these issues and take them seriously. And yet, that’s exactly what’s not happening. Indeed, discussions with Canada’s top university presidents reveal for the most part that they are in a state of denial.

“This is a non-issue,” wrote U of T president David Naylor in an email. “We’ve never had a student complain about this. In fact, this is a false stereotype, as we know that Asian students are fully engaged in extracurricular activities. So the whole concept is false.”

As Cheryl Misak, the U of T’s VP and provost, puts it: “We have a properly diverse mix, with no particular group extra prominent—we’re the rainbow nation and we’ve got every sort of student and everyone is on merit.” Waterloo president Feridun Hamdullahpur echoes a similar sentiment. “There is a great tendency in our society to learn more about other nations and other cultures,” he says. “Universities are the hotbed of these kind of activities. If you want to see more economic and political diversity, I think they star.”

These positions arguably represent a missed opportunity. Universities have the potential of establishing real cultural change. It makes sense that the head of the Canadian university with perhaps the highest number of Asian students is the most candid and the most concerned. Indeed, Stephen Toope has, since his arrival in 2006 as UBC president, made the issue central to his agenda—including outreach and newspaper op-ed pieces touting the importance of making the university campus a meeting place not only of diversity but also of dialogue.

Among Canadian universities, UBC is one of the few institutions that publishes the ethnic makeup of its student body. Toope says that the university’s Asian student population is not “widely out of whack with the community,” although the stats tell a slightly different story. According to a 2009 UBC report on direct undergraduate entrants, 43 per cent of its students self-identify as ethnically Chinese, Korean or Japanese, as compared to 38 per cent who self-identify as white. Although Vancouver is a richly diverse city, according to data from the 2006 census, just 21.5 per cent of its residents identify as a Chinese, Korean or Japanese visible minority.

Toope says drawing the various communities present on Canadian campuses into a common medium can be challenging. “Across Canada it isn’t always the case that you’re seeing as much engagement from the new communities as perhaps we should,” he says. Toope uses the experience of Turkish immigrants in Germany as a cautionary tale—“there are groups that never find a way to participate in the broader community.” Such circumstances persist precisely because the issue of race is not attacked head on. “I don’t want to pretend that just because you have people from different backgrounds they’re going to interact—they’re not,” Toope says. “We have to actually create mechanisms, programs and opportunities for people to interact. A university is one of the places that has the greatest capacity to work through demographic change.”

Toope points us in the right direction. It’s unfair to change the meritocratic entry system, so all universities can do—all they should do—is encourage groups to mingle. Though it’s true that universities—U of T and Waterloo included—do have diversity programs and policies for students, newer, fresher ways are needed to help pry the ethnic ghettos open so everyone hangs out together. Or at least they have the chance to. The white kids may not find it’s too Asian after all. Alexandra, who chose to go to Western for the party scene, found she “hated being away from home” and moved back to Toronto. In retrospect, she didn’t like the vibe. “Some people just want to drink 23 hours a day.” Alexandra says she still has friends at Western who live in an “all-blond house” and are “stick thin.” Rachel, Alexandra’s friend, says Western suits them—“they work hard, get good grades, then slap on their clubbing clothes.” But it didn’t suit Alexandra. She now studies at U of T.

http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2010/11/10/too-asian/

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I think this article both hits and misses. It's true that Asian students TEND to be higher achievers, that could be both the result of selective immigration picking educated parents and cultural values as stated in the article. I just think the stereotype that Asian students "aren't social" is really code for "don't do what we do". As they pointed out, Asian students TEND to dislike the drinking clubbing scene and favour playing table top games and likely video games at social events. How is this being anti-social? Since when is drinking and clubbing a requirement to be considered social, and since when was drinking and clubbing an essential part of the university culture that's being "lost" because of "too many Asians"?

The bit about Asians being the new Jews, and how bullshit "personality" admission criteria to strong academic programs are just excuses to secretly quota limit Asians struck me as obvious once I thought about it. I don't see how someone can be more "well rounded" because they play football instead of hosting LAN parties or Mah-Jong night, or why any of those things would affect how good an engineer or doctor you would be.

I think Macleans is overblowing the "too Asian" sentiment in Canada since we don't have the same level of anti-immigrant sentiment as the US. However, I do think that this thinking is starting to rise. The article does finally reach a good point about how universities should stick to merit-based admission and just encourage mingling between self-selecting groups on campus. However, mingling is something ALL groups need, not just Asian groups. It's not like Asian groups descriminate against whites, I know plenty of white people who are fully integrated into mostly Asian circles of friends simply because they value education and are a bit "nerdy" and they like to be with like-minded people.

I think the real question Macleans should be asking is not "how do we make Asians drink and club more" but instead "how do we make North American-born whites value education more than drinking and clubbing and sports".

 

[Lard]

They're definitely right that the groups don't mingle.

Tons of Chinese students here and they don't talk to anybody but people in their own group.

 

[marathonfool]

Here's the money quote right here.

Canadian universities, apart from highly competitive professional programs and faculties, don’t quiz applicants the same way, and rely entirely on transcripts.

You want more diversity in general, don't rely on just one specific metric to admit applicants. It'll force pure academic achievement students to diversify how they see the university experience.

 

[crazy monkey]

http://www.parentcentral.ca/parent/education/article/888848--chinese-canadian-council-slams-the-star-and-maclean-s-for-story-about-east-asians-on-campus

there was article today in star some what related too saying that asian parents should not tell there kid to go to engineering, pharmacy, medicine and business related field. So much wrong.

They're definitely right that the groups don't mingle.

Tons of Chinese students here and they don't talk to anybody but people in their own group.

Do you go and talk to them. My group is made up of Indian Chinese, Macedonian, polish and Venezuelan.

 

[harSon]

I'm not sure about Canada, but within the United States, or at least California, large blocks of Asians tend to restrict their socializing to other groups of Asians. I personally never had trouble penetrating those circles, considering I am part Japanese, but I have noticed that I'm the elephant in the room/odd man out when hanging with some Asian friends.

From what I've seen personally, UC Irvine is absolutely awful in this regard.

 

[CrocMother]

There needs to be more research about racial non-integration on campuses. At my Uni it seems like every race has its own scene.

 

[weekend_warrior]

control F "Cornell", phrase not found. wut?

 

[-COOLIO-]

oh hey uoft

i once sat with a group of all asians in the res cafeteria with the intent of breaking down borders, i think it went well.

 

[numble]

I think the school I am at now is like 99.9% Asian. No kidding. It's a top ranked school too.

 

[anaron]

This certainly stands true over here in Vancouver that's for sure. :lol

 

[hirokazu]

Asians are too smart. They can't compete so they make excuses. :lol

 

[Zzoram]

To whites who think asians hang out too much with their own, do you hang out mostly with whites? Have you ever tried to hang out with asians? I'm pretty sure these groups are open to outsiders, it's just outsiders see everyone in the group looks the same and steer clear.

 

[Jintor]

I think the real question Macleans should be asking is not "how do we make Asians drink and club more" but instead "how do we make North American-born whites value education more than drinking and clubbing and sports".

Yeah, that would probably have been the better question to ask.

 

[dudeworld]

It's not really much different here in Alberta at the University of Alberta. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if there were more Asians here than at the U of T. Asians completely dominate the Engineering and Science departments.

 

[beat]

Still, an "Asian" school has come to mean one that is so academically focused that some students feel they can no longer compete or have fun. [...]

[...] many white students simply believe that competing with Asians--both Asian Canadians and international students--requires a sacrifice of time and freedom they're not willing to make. They complain that they can't compete for spots in the best schools and can't party as much as they'd like (too bad for them, most will say).

[...]

Students can carry that narrow scope into university, where they risk alienating their more fun-loving peers.

Sounds like Asian students don't do anything but study! Oh, but...

Asian students do, however, participate in organizations beyond the university mainstream, and long-standing cultural clubs function as a sort of ad hoc government.

[...]

[The Dragon Seed, a social club with 300 members at UBC] offers its members social functions, tutoring help, volunteer opportunities, poker and mah-jong tournaments, and special holiday parties--including at Halloween and Christmas.

[...]

Or take the Chinese Varsity Club. With upwards of 500 members, it's the largest student social club at UBC. [...] "You want to break out of the cycle of studying and being lonely," says Brian Cheung, its president.

So basically, Asian students might self-segregate, but it doesn't sound to me like their social lives are nonexistent.

I feel like the article could have gotten into this apparent contradiction a little more.

 

[lo escondido]

To whites who think asians hang out too much with their own, do you hang out mostly with whites? Have you ever tried to hang out with asians? I'm pretty sure these groups are open to outsiders, it's just outsiders see everyone in the group looks the same and steer clear.

At my school most, if not all, the Asians are Chinese and seem only to speak Chinese when they form their own groups so it's a little intimidating. I'd love to hang out with them though, my RA freshmen year was from China, he was hard worker but an awesome dude.

 

[-COOLIO-]

so im actually doing some homework right now, and im stuck as shit, and now im thinking about how china and india are going to whoop our asses with their competitive youth but this shit is so hard i dont give a fuck, i will take it in the ass and scrub their toilets. i dont give a fuck. trying to make a garbage collector with these bullshit limitations is not fucking worth it. i will scrub the shit out of smarter peoples toilets i do not give a fuuuuuuck.

 

[-COOLIO-]

Yeah, that would probably have been the better question to ask.

honestly, right now im of the mind that technology is good enough and we should stop learning more, learn just enough, and party.

WHOS WITH ME!?

 

[harSon]

To whites who think asians hang out too much with their own, do you hang out mostly with whites? Have you ever tried to hang out with asians? I'm pretty sure these groups are open to outsiders, it's just outsiders see everyone in the group looks the same and steer clear.

Not necessarily sure why the question is restricted to white people, but as an ethnically mixed person (Black, Spanish, Italian and Japanese), I personally have a large group of friends that is ridiculously diverse, many of which are Asian. Having said that, I don't think it's a secret that a large block of Asians, not all or even most, do in fact restrict themselves to other Asians. Ethnic specific circles are by no means uncommon within school or life in general, but in a city as diverse as San Jose, CA, I can't help but notice that Asians (Who are 30% of my city) seem to do so more frequently and on a larger scale.

 

[ATF487]

My experience:

It's not really "Asians" but "foreign asian students" that segregate themselves heavily. I knew lots of foreign students from China that would be afraid to talk to ol' whitey but I also knew lots of second/third generation asians that would be much more likely to intermingle. And then I knew some foreign students that would open up when approached, so uh, it sort of depends

 

[Kade]

I've walked by/drove by University of Waterloo many times without seeing a single non-Asian.

 

[SabinFigaro]

I lol'd when I read "go to Queen’s, Western and McGill." So true.

I have many friends who declined UofT, or have come out of UofT to do post-grad somewhere else with the same attitude: the atmosphere is one of academic killjoy. The reason was never Asian-saturation or along racial lines.

Regardless, there is that type of student that needs that atmosphere, hates socializing, and will never, ever come out to a party, drink, or otherwise socialize with classmates. University has always been to me as much about the experience as it is the education. I've gotten a damn good education, and had a damn fun time doing so, as I'm sure many UofT students have. Perhaps our definition of a good time is slightly different.

 

[Mikey Jr.]

I go to a University in Toronto.

Indian people hang out with Indian people.

Asian people hang out with Asian people.

Black people hang out with black people and white people.

White people hang out with white people and black people.

Its because whites and blacks speak primarily English so its easier to hang out. I have some Indian friends, and when they are with other Indians, it's like 50% English and 50% Punjabi or whatever. Feels awkward when they start talking Indian, I'm standing there looking like an idiot, so I don't really gravitate towards other groups.

 

[Nerevar]

I'm not sure about Canada, but within the United States, or at least California, large blocks of Asians tend to restrict their socializing to other groups of Asians. I personally never had trouble penetrating those circles, considering I am part Japanese, but I have noticed that I'm the elephant in the room/odd man out when hanging with some Asian friends.

From what I've seen personally, UC Irvine is absolutely awful in this regard.

You're kidding yourself if you think this is purely an Asian phenomenon. Immigrants in general, even 2nd- and 3rd- generation ones, tend to stick together in multicultural societies. Hell, go to any American east coast city and walk the neighborhoods, you'll easily see the Irish section, the italian section, the Jewish section ... It's just the way things are.

 

[grumble]

Asian groups do tend to self-segregate a little more than others, and sometimes the community doesn't participate at universities outside of academics. I think that that is an honest shame, and a cultural flaw.

I think the bigger cultural flaw is the tendency for a big group of white people to drink themselves through university and not study, coasting on an entitlement complex.

Basically, we need a hybrid cultural group which will study hard, be open to forming friendships with everyone, participates a lot in school life and athletics and is down for some well-timed partying.

 

[Zzoram]

I lol'd when I read "go to Queen’s, Western and McGill." So true.

I have many friends who declined UofT, or have come out of UofT to do post-grad somewhere else with the same attitude: the atmosphere is one of academic killjoy. The reason was never Asian-saturation or along racial lines.

Regardless, there is that type of student that needs that atmosphere, hates socializing, and will never, ever come out to a party, drink, or otherwise socialize with classmates. University has always been to me as much about the experience as it is the education. I've gotten a damn good education, and had a damn fun time doing so, as I'm sure many UofT students have. Perhaps our definition of a good time is slightly different.

I don't see how drinking and clubbing equals more socializing than LAN parties and board game nights. If anything, LAN parties and board game nights are MORE social because you can actually hear each other talk and will remember the conversation the next day.

If anything, it's just that asians prefer sober socializing but that isn't considered "real" socializing by the cool kids.

Also, maybe when there is a group of all chinese people they speak chinese, but this same group is very likely going to welcome english speakers into their group if they actually come over. Remember, from their perspective, English is the foreign language that they feel intimidated by.

 

[-COOLIO-]

I go to a University in Toronto.

Indian people hang out with Indian people.

Asian people hang out with Asian people.

Black people hang out with black people and white people.

White people hang out with white people and black people.

Its because whites and blacks speak primarily English so its easier to hang out. I have some Indian friends, and when they are with other Indians, it's like 50% English and 50% Punjabi or whatever. Feels awkward when they start talking Indian, I'm standing there looking like an idiot, so I don't really gravitate towards other groups.

honestly, ive been here 4 years and it's an incredibly diverse and mixed up place, pretty much all races hang out with all races with the exceptions being people who are heavily embedded in a foreign culture to the extent that it's just easier for them to be friends with people fromt he same area. this just happens to be the case for mostly chinese and indian people.

it's hella mixed though. and a lot of chinese and indian people who adapt to the country make friends with whoever.

it's a bueatiful thing : ]

i love toronto

fuck this shitty ass bullshit school and there fucked up sadistic assignments though.

fuck it right up the ass

 

[Nerevar]

I don't see how drinking and clubbing equals more socializing than LAN parties and board game nights. If anything, LAN parties and board game nights are MORE social because you can actually hear each other talk and will remember the conversation the next day.

If anything, it's just that asians prefer sober socializing but that isn't considered "real" socializing by the cool kids.

:lol

you sound like a fun guy.

 

[Dynamite Ringo Matsuri]

I'm not sure about Canada, but within the United States, or at least California, large blocks of Asians tend to restrict their socializing to other groups of Asians. I personally never had trouble penetrating those circles, considering I am part Japanese, but I have noticed that I'm the elephant in the room/odd man out when hanging with some Asian friends.

From what I've seen personally, UC Irvine is absolutely awful in this regard.

University of Civics and Integras :lol As an Asian myself (formerly from CA) I have a really diverse group of friends - everything from Hispanic, Asian, White, Black, and Middle Eastern, so I never got the whole clannish/exclusivist thing. I certainly do see it though, but I wouldn't necessarily relegate it to just Asians.

 

[Ether_Snake]

At my job all Asians hang with anyone, except if they are Chinese. Chinese only hang with one another.

 

[dudeworld]

i love toronto
s

fuck yeah. my home town. too bad I'm in shitty alberta for the time being. otherwise i'd totally hang out with you and my other torontonian brothas

 

[SabinFigaro]

I might as well share an interesting anecdote then:

My Chinese neighbours are both physicians, and their daughter recently graduated from medical school and has started her residency. Back in high school, they hired her a tutor for chemistry because her average was... 96%. Granted, something must have clicked and she graduated with an unbelievable 99% overall (I think the next closest was low 90s). In university, she was never seen outside of her room for reasons other than class or studying.

Fast-forward, she gets passed over for her first and second choice residency spots, even though she maintained a near-perfect average throughout university and medical school. Granted, it was one of the more competitive programs, but there's something to be said about getting to know your classmates and instructors, and being sociable. Marks matter to an extent, but when you have an honest-to-God interview (especially for residency), they're looking for people they actually want to work with.

Is this because she was Asian? Maybe it was just her parents, both physicians, having high expectations. Regardless, this must be some damn fine intrinsic motivation, but I would consider this lifestyle somewhat lacking.

 

[olbareun]

hey guys. UBC says hi.

 

[Simon Belmont]

As a Western student I can say that Western is also crammed with Asians.

 

[ccbfan]

This article is pure bullshit.

I'm Asian and I went to a top Engineering school with like a ton of Asians. I though got to see both ends of the spectrum as I have "white" interest (smoking, drinking and sports) and "Asian" interest (video games and Asian media). So I got perspective from both ends.

A lot of Asians just don't like to drink. Heck a lot of Asians just can't drink. Most I know are two beers and done. Most of the girls are one beer and done. So if your definition of "hanging out" is drinking then sure Asian people don't "hang out". As for sports sadly a lot of Asians just don't have a good body for sports that are popular in school. (Basketball and football)

But if "hanging out" include getting together for a common interest then Asian people hang out. Asian people hang out just fine with white people as long as you're all doing shit they enjoy. Go to video game clubs or anime clubs and I'm sure you'll see tons of Asians and white people mingling and having a good time.

 

[Zzoram]

:lol

you sound like a fun guy.

This is exactly the attitude that is what's wrong with North America. You're "uncool" if your social activities are "nerdy", you have to drink and club in university or you're not doing it right. Why do some people find it so hard to have fun sober? Are these people so incapable of conversation that they can't stand each other sober?

A lot of Asians just don't like to drink. Heck a lot of Asians just can't drink. Most I know are two beers and done. Most of the girls are one beer and done. So if your definition of "hanging out" is drinking then sure Asian people don't "hang out". As for sports sadly a lot of Asians just don't have a good body for sports that are popular in school. (Basketball and football)

Ya this is part of it. Most asians under produce alcohol dehydrogenase and get ridiculously hung over after like 4 beers so they physically CAN'T do the drinking and clubbing that the white students think they should be doing.

 

[CrankyJay]

My sophomore year at college my roomy and I lived in a dorm and the hall we were in were all Asian. They mostly kept to themselves, played a shitload of Starcraft, but they recognized us after a semester and said hi (well, one of them did, probably because he was in our major). But even outside of the dorm they only hung out with one another.

 

[SabinFigaro]

I don't see how drinking and clubbing equals more socializing than LAN parties and board game nights. If anything, LAN parties and board game nights are MORE social because you can actually hear each other talk and will remember the conversation the next day.

If anything, it's just that asians prefer sober socializing but that isn't considered "real" socializing by the cool kids.

Shit son, this is a videogaming-oriented board. I LAN, most of Asian classmates LAN, and our "social" nature extends beyond a computer and a boardgame.

I'm glad you assumed my socializing meant clubbing and getting laid. Good one. There's something to be said for meeting up a pub for a pint, and hey, still remembering the conversation. I mentioned drinking as one point in my post; it obviously wasn't the focus. A party doesn't need drinking, nor does a social endeavour. I run a journal club for God's sake, I know what nerdy is.

You sound like a fun guy.

 

[Tornado Condor]

I'm not sure about Canada, but within the United States, or at least California, large blocks of Asians tend to restrict their socializing to other groups of Asians. I personally never had trouble penetrating those circles, considering I am part Japanese, but I have noticed that I'm the elephant in the room/odd man out when hanging with some Asian friends.

From what I've seen personally, UC Irvine is absolutely awful in this regard.

I just got accepted to UC Irvine today. If I go there i'd be like the only Mexican in campus. :lol

 

[Zzoram]

My sophomore year at college my roomy and I lived in a dorm and the hall we were in were all Asian. They mostly kept to themselves, played a shitload of Starcraft, but they recognized us after a semester and said hi (well, one of them did, probably because he was in our major). But even outside of the dorm they only hung out with one another.

How is that different than the waterpolo team mostly playing waterpolo and clubbing with each other and occasionally saying "hi" to the asian kid down the hall?

 

[The Technomancer]

I live as part of the "Students Crossing Borders" community in my dorm, which means that we're all living with exchange students, and about 90% of them are Asian, mostly Chinese. You get some intermingling but by and large people hang out with others like them.

Also, my roommate found a girlfriend after like three months here. I've been looking for a year and a half.

 

[harSon]

I just got accepted to UC Irvine today. If I go there i'd be like the only Mexican in campus. :lol

UC Santa Cruz has a nice mix to it Although each college within it does seem to have a stereotype :lol

 

[Johann]

Sounds like Asian students don't do anything but study! Oh, but...


So basically, Asian students might self-segregate, but it doesn't sound to me like their social lives are nonexistent.

I feel like the article could have gotten into this apparent contradiction a little more.

I've never understood the claim that Asians are too specialized in academics. There used to be a time when they focused solely on rout memorization (the "Asian are good at math" meme) but now Asian applicants to college have very well rounded background (their parents know how to game the system). They're in leadership positions, sports and other extracurricular activities. All of this is on top of the fact that many of them come from poor families in which English is not the primary language.

I'm especially bewildered that they claim Asians don't party or get hammered. A lot of them can't hold their liquor though.

 

[CrankyJay]

How is that different than the waterpolo team mostly playing waterpolo and clubbing with each other and occasionally saying "hi" to the asian kid down the hall?

Because I've been invited to hang out with hockey, lacrosse, and rugby teams at parties and other places, but was never asked to play Starcraft or if I played Starcraft or if I wanted to go to a party with Asian people. People from the teams above managed to hang out with people outside of their teams.

 

[Zzoram]

Shit son, this is a videogaming-oriented board. I LAN, most of Asian classmates LAN, and our "social" nature extends beyond a computer and a boardgame.

I'm glad you assumed my socializing meant clubbing and getting laid. Good one. There's something to be said for meeting up a pub for a pint, and hey, still remembering the conversation. I mentioned drinking as one point in my post; it obviously wasn't the focus. A party doesn't need drinking, nor does a social endeavour. I run a journal club for God's sake, I know what nerdy is.

You sound like a fun guy.

I do go out to pubs for a pint and cheap wings. I did it yesterday. I mostly do it with my white friends since they mostly don't want to do anything that doesn't involve drinking. My asian friends prefer going to a cafe for coffee and a dessert. There are exceptions, some of them are up for a good Settlers of Catan or LAN party night every now and then. My asian friends mostly don't drink, they LAN starcraft or play Settlers of Catan over snack food and casual discussion. They also watch TV shows together and discuss them. I enjoy both activities, I just don't like getting drunk or clubbing. Every time I go to a club with friends we have to yell at each other and only hear half the words even then. I find that the opposite of social, nobody can talk.

 

[The Technomancer]

Because I've been invited to hang out with hockey, lacrosse, and rugby teams at parties and other places, but was never asked to play Starcraft or if I played Starcraft or if I wanted to go to a party with Asian people. People from the teams above managed to hang out with people outside of their teams.

But are you Asian? Would they be as likely to invite you to lacrosse and rugby parties if you were "the Asian guy who plays Starcraft"?

 

[Pterion]

I've never understood the claim that Asians are too specialized in academics. There used to be a time when they focused solely on rout memorization (the "Asian are good at math" meme) but now Asian applicants to college have very well rounded background (their parents know how to game the system). They're in leadership positions, sports and other extracurricular activities. All of this is on top of the fact that many of them come from poor families in which English is not the primary language.

I'm especially bewildered that they claim Asians don't party or get hammered. A lot of them can't hold their liquor though.

That's pretty funny.

 

[Simon Belmont]

How is that different than the waterpolo team mostly playing waterpolo and clubbing with each other and occasionally saying "hi" to the asian kid down the hall?

It's not at all. People tend to hang with people they share interests with. Personally, I don't hang out with too many people who aren't musicians.

 

[Tornado Condor]

UC Santa Cruz has a nice mix to it Although each college within it does seem to have a stereotype :lol

Really? I'm still waiting for UCSC's decision. I've never heard anything about Santa Cruz. Is it a nice school?

 

[Dice]

I've had Asian students ask me in a very genuine and innocent manner why so many American students are always going out partying and getting wasted, and why it seems to be the only way they want to pass the time.

They're shocked and never expected such a thing, and they ask me this because:
1) They think it's a silly thing to do even for fun.
2) They see their fellow students suffering academic consequences from it.
3) They have trouble making good friends because non-Asians only seem to be interested in this.

I have no answers for them, only that I don't know and I agree.