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[AbortedWalrusFetus]

MS hasn't proven itself on the small/subtle/accurate, and Nintendo doesn't have any form of vision based system at all


don't think it matters yet though. I expect both Sony and MS to play around with bundles, experiment with them, but then refine/tweak for their next console launches. So its perfectly feasible that Sony might end up with some of hte Natal approach, and MS might add some wand stuff for accuracy. Will Nintendo add a camera?

I don't think Natal can track small or subtle movements with any accuracy, or they would have shown it. Especially in their paint demo. The paint buckets were neat and all, but the fact that they showed no brushes or even finger painting in the demo seems like it's more than an oversight. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think if they had that sort of accuracy they'd have been quick to show it off in at least one of their demos.

 

[Starchasing]

Pristine, please

look up what R&D actually means before you keep embarassing yourself

historical facts

LOL

 

[gofreak]

They could do some finger painting. I mean even eyetoy had finger tracing and stuff. But it wasn't very accurate. Actually the bit where he was doing the leaves on the palm tree, which was as specific as it got in the demo, looked exactly like the kind of 'finger tracing' in eyetoy stuff (thicker strokes to mask inaccuracy and 'mistakes' in the tracking).

That stuff is also a very far stretch from generalised 'finger motion capture'.

 

[mrklaw]

depending on the resolution of the IR stuff - if it can build up a depth grid of the scene for instance, and how much difference between distances it can detect - then separating finger tips pointing at the screen should be much better than simply doing it by image processing.

 

[Woffls]

I hope nobody in this thread is basing the success of this device on how good the technology is...

Wii doesn't sell because the technology is good, it sells because of how it's marketed and implemented through game design. Sony have shown me a second attempt at shoehorning motion control into their strategy with a tech demo... not games... a tech demo. I can't possibly begin to understand who they'll market this at. The expanded audience wont drop $400 (or however much it is), the games are more expensive and the name Sony is hardly synonymous with good family fun. If they're aiming for the rest of us... uhh... have they been on the internet lately? We hate this shit.

If the discussion really is solely on whether the technology is as good, it doesn't matter, Sony have no direction for this and it will go the way of Sixaxis; developers wont care, consumers wont care.

 

[Starchasing]

I hope nobody in this thread is basing the success of this device on how good the technology is...

Wii doesn't sell because the technology is good, it sells because of how it's marketed and implemented through game design. Sony have shown me a second attempt at shoehorning motion control into their strategy with a tech demo... not games... a tech demo. I can't possibly begin to understand who they'll market this at. The expanded audience wont drop $400 (or however much it is), the games are more expensive and the name Sony is hardly synonymous with good family fun. If they're aiming for the rest of us... uhh... have they been on the internet lately? We hate this shit.

If the discussion really is solely on whether the technology is as good, it doesn't matter, Sony have no direction for this and it will go the way of Sixaxis; developers wont care, consumers wont care.

Yes but Dr House has been working on this all his life so dont worry

 

[gofreak]

depending on the resolution of the IR stuff - if it can build up a depth grid of the scene for instance, and how much difference between distances it can detect - then separating finger tips pointing at the screen should be much better than simply doing it by image processing.

Yes, it should be more accurate with depth information..but..the error margin would still be far higher than 'within sub-millimetres' for example What was shown with the 'finer' painting of the leaves didn't look much at all better than the finger tracing in something like Mesemerize: Trace (it looked less laggy than Trace though).

Woffls - the thread mostly is about technology/application discussion, that was the OP's intent at least.

 

[Pristine_Condition]

Pristine, please

look up what R&D actually means before you keep embarassing yourself

It means Research and Development. What's your point? How are you suggesting I'm embarrassing myself. Please expand.

LOL.

Well, they are facts. They are from the past. Therefore, they are historical facts.

Again, what's your problem with what I said? Or are these just passive-aggressive ad homonyms? If the latter is the case, it's not my posts that are embarrassing here.

 

[SSJ1Goku]

The bulb bit is actually a light source or LED array for more accurate visual tracking by the camera. It's not the ultrasonic stuff. If there is ultrasonic stuff there it should be invisible to the eye, or very discreet anyway.

I think it's going to be tricky for the bulb not to be a prominent feature on the final controller if they're depending on visibility of large parts of it (but they may not be, I dunno).

I'm calling it right now, E-motion's weakest visual feature (the bulb) will become its strongest visual point. I just get that feeling.

 

[Pristine_Condition]

I hope nobody in this thread is basing the success of this device on how good the technology is...

You could try reading the thread and finding out. I think you're one of the first in a long time to even broadly speculate on the potential success (or lack of success) of this device. This is mostly a simple tech discussion. Or, at least it is when the discussion isn't being derailed by annoying Wii zealots.

Still, I think you made some good points. It's not a certainty that this will be a success.

 

[Woffls]

Woffls - the thread mostly is about technology/application discussion, that was the OP's intent at least.

Yah I noticed - although I didn't really identify any specific questions, but there seemed to be a bit of a variety of discussion threads, many not about the specific tech, that and I'm not sure how qualified any of us are to talk about motion sensing technology in the first place so it does seem somewhat futile. Ultimately all that matters is how the implement it, and even the presentation of new tech such as Milo looked as if it had more direction.

edit
sorry if i upset anyone, off i go!

 

[AbortedWalrusFetus]

They could do some finger painting. I mean even eyetoy had finger tracing and stuff. But it wasn't very accurate. Actually the bit where he was doing the leaves on the palm tree, which was as specific as it got in the demo, looked exactly like the kind of 'finger tracing' in eyetoy stuff (thicker strokes to mask inaccuracy and 'mistakes' in the tracking).

That stuff is also a very far stretch from generalised 'finger motion capture'.

You're right, I forgot about the palm leaves. Even so, it wasn't really a good demonstration of accuracy, certainly not to the level we saw with the Sony demo. I suppose time will tell.

 

[Starchasing]

It means Research and Development. What's your point? How are you suggesting I'm embarrassing myself. Please expand.
.

for example

He somehow wants to convince people that Sony has been willing to bankroll Dr Marks, naming him the head of his own research lab and spending millions on R&D over the last decade, all for nothing

this proves you dont know how R&D works.

 

[Schattenjäger]

This is mostly a simple tech discussion.

Really? The broad thread title and discussion so far suggests otherwise. So should we start another thread predicting the success of this (or even another thread solely for criticisms) ? - since a lot of posters in this thread are getting rather defensive.

 

[mrklaw]

I'm calling it right now, E-motion's weakest visual feature (the bulb) will become its strongest visual point. I just get that feeling.

I hope they put spinning LEDs in it, then you could have pretty patterns!

 

[bottles]

It's no surprise that you say "bingo" and agree with his post, bottles. It's also no surprise that most of the "points" in his post are absolute crap, and not backed up by well-known, historical facts.

But thanks again for proving my prediction right, that you would come back in here just repeating your same, faith-based assertion aver again, without bringing any new information to the table that backs up your claim, because, of course, there is none. The facts aren't on your side. You have only your faith in Nintendo.

:lol You were just explained how you’ve been missing the point with your facts, and here you are doing it again.

Please. Stop now.

 

[Forsete]

Which console was first with an alternative control method which was widely used? PS2, with EyeToy?

 

[AbortedWalrusFetus]

I hope they put spinning LEDs in it, then you could have pretty patterns!

It'll be like a mini-rave in your living room.

I have to admit, when I first saw the controller and when they started the tech demo I rolled my eyes and almost shrugged the entire thing off. If I had stopped watching after that I would have thought it was a disaster. Then I thought to myself, "You know, I thought the Wii was just as retarded when I first saw it." And then when they got down to showing how accurate it was I started to become really impressed. As the demo went along it got far better, and by the end I could actually see how this was (as far as I'm concerned) the best implementation of the three. I think he's right, what was considered the most unusual and perhaps silly aspect of the controller may perhaps come to be accepted an symbolic like the wii-remote... It's just a bit more of a stretch because man does it look retarded.

 

[mrklaw]

Which console was first with an alternative control method which was widely used? PS2, with EyeToy?

depends how you define alternate? NES with ROB, powerglove.

 

[rollingstart]

I'm calling it right now, E-motion's weakest visual feature (the bulb) will become its strongest visual point. I just get that feeling.

Is it gonna really light up the entire time? They already showed that Natal can work in the dark. I'd like for this to work in the dark, no weird glow from my hands or anything like that.

 

[AbortedWalrusFetus]

Which console was first with an alternative control method which was widely used? PS2, with EyeToy?

Zapper?

I'm pretty sure you mean motion sensing though, and the technical first was Sega with the activator I believe, but that was a joke (and not widely used).

Edit:

Is it gonna really light up the entire time? They already showed that Natal can work in the dark. I'd like for this to work in the dark, no weird glow from my hands or anything like that.

Unfortunately I think it has to be lit the entire time, but fortunately I imagine that it doesn't have to have too much brightness. Just enough that the camera can track it, which should be minimal. Probably safer in the dark anyway, so other people can see your wild flailing :lol

 

[Sol..]

Zapper?

I'm pretty sure you mean motion sensing though, and the technical first was Sega with the activator I believe, but that was a joke (and not widely used).

Edit:


Unfortunately I think it has to be lit the entire time, but fortunately I imagine that it doesn't have to have too much brightness. Just enough that the camera can track it, which should be minimal. Probably safer in the dark anyway, so other people can see your wild flailing :lol

wasn't the nintendo powerglove motion sensing?

 

[AbortedWalrusFetus]

wasn't the nintendo powerglove motion sensing?

Eh, yeah, if you can even say it worked :lol

Edit:
It was probably closer to motion sensing than the activator. The activator basically had you breaking beams with your motions and it triggered a button press, as I recall, although I never used it.

 

[Schattenjäger]

Eh, yeah, if you can even say it worked :lol

"how dare you!"

 

[Pristine_Condition]

this proves you dont know how R&D works.

:lol :lol :lol

Well, since I make about 20% of my annual income shooting prototype products and promotional materials for corporate R&D departments and independent testing labs in the CE (...not Sony though, for the record.) and pharmaceutical sectors, and have met and photographed countless researchers, ect, I think I've got a pretty good idea how R&D works.

If you think that most corporate R&D departments are funding research with no end-product in mind, you are the one who doesn't know how R&D works.

Do all of those products appear in the marketplace? Of course not. But the intention is always there, or the funds get cut. Clearly, Dr. Marks' funds haven't been cut since he's been there, so it's reasonable to assume Sony has products in mind.

If you want to just do research, with no commercial application in sight, get a job at a University. But even those guys are feeling the pressure to come up with things that will make money these days. Basic and fundamental research is becoming the "Rarefied Air" of the sciences, even on University campuses.

 

[PjotrStroganov]

I don't think Natal can track small or subtle movements with any accuracy, or they would have shown it. Especially in their paint demo. The paint buckets were neat and all, but the fact that they showed no brushes or even finger painting in the demo seems like it's more than an oversight. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think if they had that sort of accuracy they'd have been quick to show it off in at least one of their demos.

But what is keeping MS from launching a controller that is similar to Sony's? Patents would prevent an exact copy but I doubt they can't work around that. All the good stuff from Natal, including the camera, plus the controller would mean the best of both worlds.

 

[SSJ1Goku]

I think he's right, what was considered the most unusual and perhaps silly aspect of the controller may perhaps come to be accepted an symbolic like the wii-remote... It's just a bit more of a stretch because man does it look retarded.

Well technically what I ment was that Sony is no slouch when it comes to good looking final versions of devices, but then again I am no tech head (Sony or otherwise), for all I know they have made lots of ugly things. Another thing to consider is that the opinion of hardcore gamers about E-motion is irrevalent. Lastly I was at Gamestop yesterday buying Knights in the Nightmare and I talked to a guy there about E3, E-motion came up, he did not mention anything about the looks of the thing. This guy explained that Wii was not his thing but, "That Sony wand was really impressive, better than Wii, it really was."

Now I am not trying to say that everybody thinks the way that guy did but...well nobody gave a damn about the Wii name and something tells me people won't give a damn about that bulb. People are going to want to know if the thing is fun or not.

E-motion is still a prototype, people seem to gloss over that fact. I guess it is the same people that tried to grasp on to that $200 Natal issue.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Sony's system is easy for Nintendo to co-opt (include a camera in the next Wii's sensor bar and include some new system in the Wiimote) but Natal is something decidedly non-Nintendo (i.e. something too expensive).

I'm also not yet sold on Sony's efforts given how I don't like Motion controls on the Wii, another issue is controlling the analogue stick on the PS3wand when you're waving it around. However I suppose the PS3's audience, unlike the Wii's, would be more willing to buy two controllers for each person however because of the price and other issues it won't get the same market penetration as Nintendo has had with the Wii.

 

[SSJ1Goku]

Is it gonna really light up the entire time? They already showed that Natal can work in the dark. I'd like for this to work in the dark, no weird glow from my hands or anything like that.

*shrug* Don't know, but what people have to understand is that bulb people a making fun of is what is making E-motion true 1:1. I guess it is possible that the final version could have a differ lookin light source.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

This 'true 1:1' nonsense reminds me of the true HD crap a while back.

 

[UntoldDreams]

But what is keeping MS from launching a controller that is similar to Sony's? Patents would prevent an exact copy but I doubt they can't work around that. All the good stuff from Natal, including the camera, plus the controller would mean the best of both worlds.

Patents would prevent jack squat on something like a camera with a glowing light.

Microsoft has adopted the most advanced solution which will absolutely be the most costly and the hardest to figure out how to put into a game properly.

If PSEye + 2 motion controllers ends up $120 then a 3d imaging camera like Natal + 2 motion controllers will be worse... particularly if they want decent 3d imaging resolution.

The EA Richitello guy said it best that Sony is the "bridge technology" between true 3D imaging and simple waggle.

 

[Igo]

Why don't people just ignore bottles. He's trolling the thread so just stop responding to him.

Sony were obviously serious about the Eye Toy and alternative input methods. The problem is Sony released a $600.00 console. They didn't even include a headset in every console because of the additional costs. I'm sure Sony would have loved to include an Eye Toy in every PS3 but there's no way they could afford that.

 

[matticus]

I've been out of the loop, where did the name "E-motion" come from?

 

[Pristine_Condition]

But what is keeping MS from launching a controller that is similar to Sony's? Patents would prevent an exact copy but I doubt they can't work around that. All the good stuff from Natal, including the camera, plus the controller would mean the best of both worlds.

Nothing. Sony's got some patents, true, but like you say, Microsoft knows how to work around patents. And the better the cameras end up being, the easier it will be for Microsoft to catch up to Sony's precision.

Then again, there's nothing preventing Sony from adding a second camera, or IR or sonar emitter/sensor to their system either to keep up with Microsoft when/if they overtake Sony.

 

[SSJ1Goku]

I've been out of the loop, where did the name "E-motion" come from?

I made it up

E(ye)-motion

kind of like Eye Toy

 

[avatar299]

Why don't people just ignore bottles. He's trolling the thread so just stop responding to him.

Sony were obviously serious about the Eye Toy and alternative input methods. The problem is Sony released a $600.00 console. They didn't even include a headset in every console because of the additional costs. I'm sure Sony would have loved to include an Eye Toy in every PS3 but there's no way they could afford that.

You guys are willing to apologize for everything Sony does. Sony couldn't do this, sony can't do that.

Sony could have bundled the PS2 with the eyetoy years ago, what stopped them? What stops them from doing that today?

 

[SSJ1Goku]

Sony could have bundled the PS2 with the eyetoy years ago, what stopped them? What stops them from doing that today?

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but don't you take a loss when you do bundles, Eye Toy sold 10 million units, that sounds like a lot of profit to me. As for the PS3...well you know.

 

[UntoldDreams]

You guys are willing to apologize for everything Sony does. Sony couldn't do this, sony can't do that.

Sony could have bundled the PS2 with the eyetoy years ago, what stopped them? What stops them from doing that today?

I don't see what there is to argue about on this though.

Nintendo took the risks of bundling and reaped great rewards. This is a fact. It does not mean they are the inventors of waggle technology. They did not invent this tech... someone else probably had the idea 15 years before the Wii was created in some lab with accelerometers and gyroscopes in a computer mouse.

All this means is Nintendo took the risk and reaped the reward.

That being said there is nothing preventing Sony or Microsoft from now trying to 1up Nintendo. Indeed that's how the system works, isn't it?

 

[beelzebozo]

finally, motion controls have moved out of the ghetto

 

[bottles]

I don't see what there is to argue about on this though.

Nintendo took the risks of bundling and reaped great rewards. This is a fact. It does not mean they are the inventors of waggle technology. They did not invent this tech... someone else probably had the idea 15 years before the Wii was created in some lab with accelerometers and gyroscopes in a computer mouse.

All this means is Nintendo took the risk and reaped the reward.

That being said there is nothing preventing Sony or Microsoft from now trying to 1up Nintendo. Indeed that's how the system works, isn't it?

I don’t think anybody has claimed otherwise.

Nintendo obviously didn’t invent motion control, but I know for a fact that Nintendo was working with accelerometers as early as 2001.

 

[Wollan]

I made it up
E(ye)-motion
kind of like Eye Toy

How about E-mote like in

Emote as in express yourself.
You're not Red E
PS backwards E (3) ...etc.

 

[Evlar]

Which console was first with an alternative control method which was widely used? PS2, with EyeToy?

Atari 2600, with paddles.

 

[SSJ1Goku]

How about E-mote like in

Emote as in express yourself.
You're not Red E
PS backwards E (3) ...etc.

Honestly no, it does not roll of the tongue and Sony will want to distant it self from Wii-mote as much a possible (probably). E-motion describes the whole bundle aswell as the experience you get while playing not just the controller. *insert sexy white teens right here*

 

[Pristine_Condition]

Atari 2600, with paddles.

As far as I was concerned, the stick was the alternate controller. Mostly because of this:

 

[belvedere]

Pristine, appropriately named ass whooping!

Good job PC.

 

[Kinitari]

Bingo. Pristine’s joke of a post once again makes it crystal clear that he has been missing the point over and over and over again.

And it all comes down to what I said at the very beginning: a lot of fanboy sobbing that “Sony did the R&D first!”, which is irrelevant.

Okay, lets say this point (which was not even close to your original point) is accurate. Sony was unsure about releasing this tech until they saw Nintendo's success.


And?

 

[Zoramon089]

Okay, lets say this point (which was not even close to your original point) is accurate. Sony was unsure about releasing this tech until they saw Nintendo's success.


And?

That's the point

 

[mr_nothin]

This 'true 1:1' nonsense reminds me of the true HD crap a while back.

Well...you dont know what "true 1:1" is then. Do you know what 1:1 is? If you did then you wouldnt make that comparison.

 

[Napoleonthechimp]

Well...you dont know what "true 1:1" is then. Do you know what 1:1 is? If you did then you wouldnt make that comparison.

Don't drag me into your little argument. I'm not interested.

 

[matticus]

I made it up

E(ye)-motion

kind of like Eye Toy

Nice, I figured it wasn't Sony because it was too clever. My guess... hmmm... Eye Go!

:lol