-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
TRUE 1:1 3D Sony Remote Discussion
- Thread starter Wollan
- Start date
Schattenjäger
Gabriel Knight
It's a discussion! Now he is "looking for attention"!:lol :lol :lolmr_nothin said:
You fanboys are amazing!
Huh?Schattenjagger said:
He comes in and says "this TRUE 1:1 crap is getting on my nerves and is just like the TRUE HD crap". That's adding nothing to the discussion. I reply to his statement and I'm a fanboy? I just told him to get a little more informed before he makes dumb comparisons. I dont need to be a fanboy to do that.
And what do you mean "NOW he's looking for attention?" I'm not even sure if he's been posting in this thread before that. I just responded to 1 comment he made. If that makes me a fanboy....then I guess I am. If I went over to the NATAL thread and yelled out "NATAL IS JUST LIKE THE EYETOY"...i'm pretty sure I'd get the same kind of response from someone, telling me to get more informed before making such claims.
This article is mostly about competitive comparisons (thus I also put it in the 'comparison' thread), but there's a bit of more specific stuff just about Sony's controller and support plans:
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=23924
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=23924
MvmntInGrn
Member
I hope this is a joke post.Schattenjagger said:
Napoleonthechimp
Member
mr_nothin said:
What the fuck are you talking about? I don't care nearly enough about this stuff to try to get attention.
The true 1:1 annoys me in the same way as 'true hd' because it's just a sad way of trying to get a one up on the competition. If it's what you say it is then let others be the judge of that because if gamers can't tell the difference then what's the point?
Its a discussion about technology for the tech-heads in here. A lot of people I know, cant tell the difference between SD and HD but there's a big difference to me. I'm a gamer...I can tell the difference just by looking at the tech demos. One solution has a more "absolute" way of detecting exactly where an object is in a 3d space....which is what i've been wanting from motion controls since the beginning when the Wii was 1st announced.Napoleonthechimp said:
You cant just say "gamers" and group all of them in there because most of us here are gamers and we can already tell the difference. There is no "let others be the judge of that"...it's a technical difference that can be proven and shown.
MvmntInGrn
Member
Napoleonthechimp said:
Um, most probably can tell the difference.
And it sounds like you are saying you (or most people) cannot see the difference between SD and HD too, and you don't have to be a tech freak to see that difference. Some can barley see the difference between upscaled SD and HD but raw SD and HD look miles different.
And if you didn't really care you wouldn't have come in here, so yeah you are probably looking for attention.
EDIT: I know this wasn't directed at me but I couldn't help myself. Just so obvious.
Napoleonthechimp
Member
MvmntInGrn said:
No, what I was saying was that most people can't tell the difference between 720p and 1080p given the size of their TVs. PS3 was considered to be true HD by many fanboys in the past because it outputted at 1080p compared to the 720p of the 360.
I'm a normal person who likes to play videogames that thinks that loyalty to consoles or huge international corporations is completely retarded. I'm excited about the new technology but don't care for the bickering and one-upmanship that most people on here seem to love involving themselves in.
MvmntInGrn
Member
Napoleonthechimp said:
Fair enough. Since we are talking about a direct input device though I don't think its a comparable subject. I can see where you are coming from though.
Napoleonthechimp
Member
This is purely speculation but... Given the limitations of animation and the restrictions on the developers and game designers I don't think games will be able to take advantage of 1:1 motion control. Now the demos they showed at E3? Brilliant, but I'm still not convinced it'll look good with animated in-game characters or at least you won't be able to see the 'sub-milimeter precision' on show.
What do you think of that?
What do you think of that?
MvmntInGrn
Member
Napoleonthechimp said:
Well in the case of the sword and shield demo that is possible I guess. But when it comes to a pointer I'm not so sure.
squatingyeti
non-sanctioned troll
cakefoo said:
I believe many of you are jumping on him because you didn't get what he's saying. Some people here, including Wollan, have said that M+ is not really 1:1 and what sony is doing is TRUE 1:1.
I could be wrong, but I read his original statement as saying this is "true" 1:1 when both solutions are 1:1 is fanboyish and stupid.
Oh, that might be it- I joined at the wrong time in the conversation, I guess.squatingyeti said:
There's no question it would help the immersion. There'll be so many miscellaneous, odd actions to perform during that game, it'll be like WarioWare, but with a serious side.gofreak said:
Alx
Member
JoJo13 said:
I already anticipate a lot of bad press because of the gore, so I don't think it would be a good idea to allow the players to mime the ripping of a head bare-handed... (actually I'm wondering if we're not crossing the line, if we start to include realistic motion control to violent games)
UntoldDreams
Member
They'll make a dragonball game and let you shoot fireballs.
You'll have to make Kame Hame Ha movement though.
EDIT: then you'll hate motion when you see yourself in the mirror.
You'll have to make Kame Hame Ha movement though.
EDIT: then you'll hate motion when you see yourself in the mirror.
How can you claim 1:1 if you can't replicate the actual positioning of the controller? The Wiimote with the M+ still has delay (probably because it's over dependent on the gyro and accelerometers) and it doesn't track the position to the same accuracy as the Sonymote. Also, if you hold the wiimote sideways it loses position further because it's dependent on the ir markers on either end to correct itself. The Sonymote is the only device shown so far that does tracking to a degree where the human eye can't detect the difference (sub-mm), with no delay (besides lcd screen delay) and it's always dependable no matter the angle unless you hide it. Basically (not actual measurements), the Wiimote does it's job at a 0.8:1 accuracy with 0.3sec delay while the Sonymote does 0.999:1 with 0.01sec delay and it's always dependable, pointer functionality no matter what angle and no correction needed.squatingyeti said:
Fabricating numbers to back your claims? That's beyond impressive.Wollan said:
So sure, there's a delay with input, and a lot of the software that have utilized Motion+ seem to have a bit of a delay (these aren't tech demos, these are full software). Guess which one's doesn't? Nintendo's first party Wii Sports Resort has all kinds of accolades thrown at it after E3.
Let's just take this non-fabricated quote from Destructoid's hands on with sword-play.
Source
There's no noticeable delay. Perhaps if you freeze frame the videos of MotionPlus, you'll find a delay, but at that point you've gone off the deep end. If the hands-on impressions don't note delays, who cares about the sub mili-seconds? It's like have a videogame run at 500 frames when all the eye can perceive is 60.
Since you're working off of tech demos, let's take a look at this one. As you can see, it can accurately detect 1:1 motion. Also, the IR sensor is only on one side of the remote... just a heads up there.
All of the complaints levied against the Wii MotionPlus thus far have been hypothetical. Will errors accumulate over time, or did Nintendo include self-correcting software? We don't know for sure (we do know there is software built within the MotionPlus that helps determine spatial positioning and throws out outliers of data).
The bottom line is they both are capable of doing 1:1 accurately, so this "TRUE" nonsense is nothing more than PR regurgitation.
I'm not saying that PS3's motion capabilities are worse, they're likely more accurate (since they rely on newer prototypical technology). I'm just saying that implying that Nintendo's 1:1 technology that comes out next week is somehow "false" is ridiculously fanboyish.
squatingyeti
non-sanctioned troll
Wollan said:
I'm not sure it's even worth discussing this with you because:
a) you create numbers to support your claims
b) we all know your stance whenever a Sony product is involved
c) you pretend to know exactly how the sony wandamijig will function despite it still being a prototype
Also, if the Sony device is the only one that can do tracking to a degree where the human eye can't detect it, why then is the wiimote perfectly capable of such a feat when playing Wii Sports Resort? Your claims are incorrect and even worse so when no one has even used the Sony device with a real product.
squatingyeti said:
We do know how the Sony device works; the patents have been released.
As for the Wii Sports Resort claim -- link?
The fact is, the Sony device is much better tech than the Wii Motion +. While similar, they are not the same, and Sony's controller has some beneficial key features that put it above the Wii Motion +. I think Wollan articulated those benefits well.
Napoleonthechimp said:
While it may be used as PR bullet points, it doesn't change the fact it has actual meaning.
True HD = 1080p
1:1 = umm, 1:1
Napoleonthechimp said:
That isn't really true.
Raist said:
You maybe right. I haven't had a chance to play it yet (yes, I suck). It still seems crazy neither were mentioned though.
It is true that some people can't see the difference between 720p and 1080p, but it's mainly because they're sitting too far away, or they're watching a movie that isn't sharp enough for the added resolution to even matter.
But as stated here, he was responding to the posters claiming it was a night and day difference between Sony's 1:1 and Nintendo's 1:1, not just Sony's 1:1 vs Nintendo's non 1:1 original remote.
But as stated here, he was responding to the posters claiming it was a night and day difference between Sony's 1:1 and Nintendo's 1:1, not just Sony's 1:1 vs Nintendo's non 1:1 original remote.
Woffls
Member
This "night and day difference" sounds like a mirage in the empty deserts of Sony fandom.
Brilliant how people start caring about waggle now; enough to argue about it, at least. Also, 1:1 is quite literally impossible with this technology, it is also not the same as lag...
Also, yes, most people cannot tell the difference between 720p and 1070p on sets 37" and under, hence why many 32" sets aren't even 1080p.
Brilliant how people start caring about waggle now; enough to argue about it, at least. Also, 1:1 is quite literally impossible with this technology, it is also not the same as lag...
Also, yes, most people cannot tell the difference between 720p and 1070p on sets 37" and under, hence why many 32" sets aren't even 1080p.
Huge unimaginable lag in WM+ :/ http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=16179310&postcount=143
Night and day difference.
Night and day difference.
Heck, most people play their HD consoles in standard definition.Woffls said:
There really needs to be an technologically educational push to show all these consumers that their HD TVs can actually put out high rez picture.
He missed the target. :lol Also, it's worth pointing out that the video linked is from E3 2008. There have been advancements in the MotionPlus since that date.mr_nothin said:
He even starts to complain about the controls at 3:50 "yea..when you do that.... it doesnt.....yea its like im trying to go really fast with lots of jabs..." And the jabs dont seem to work that well (if at all). Yea, maybe they've had advancements since then but that's the video he posted and that's what I'm responding to.pakkit said:
It seems like a mix of gestures and "1:1" to tell the honest truth. Like its 1:1 before you swing but when you swing, its gesture based.
(idk, I could be reaching on that last 1 but it does kind of seem like that though)
Call me a fanboy, but when you compare that video to the sony one, there seems to be a difference between the accuracy and precision of the 2. The difference could be tech demo vs "actual game". There's also 1 other thing to take into account. The fact that there's resistance in Wii Resort.
Sony video: (start at 7:30)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qiX-26VL4bM
Woffls said:
I personally wasn't really following the discussion regarding that particular topic (I just got back from a business trip) ... just commenting on the 1080p metaphor.
That said, the Sony tech does have some clear advantages. It appears to be much more tolerant to errors, as well as being more accurate in the z domain. When things are going well on the M+ side of things though, I don't know whether it will be a 'night and day' difference (though z issues may be noticeable).
Where Sony's tech obviously differentiates itself though is with its image tech. Obviously that stuff cannot be replicated with M+. You're not going to see Minority Report-esque UI features, nor see yourself melded with a virtual world.
Nice way to blanket everyone posting :\
Resolution viewing is based on viewing distance, image size, and eyesight. Making generalized comments based on screen size alone is silly. Otherwise high res monitors make no sense.
Related to this, it should also be noted that there's a difference between resolving every pixel of an image, versus seeing more detail. It's not like you visually resolve 720p, and then at some point magically jump to 1080p. There are detail advantages in between.
Whatever though, I don't want to derail this thread further regarding resolution discussions.
mr_nothin:
Thank you. I've been wanting this explained for some time now.
Now I see what people are talking about. Granted, maybe they weren't even trying to make the game exactly mimic the player's motions the whole time, but hey, maybe they were. I can see where skepticism comes from. I had it in my head that WM+ could do 1:1 perfectly well (probably due to "too sensitive" comments) but now I'm not that sure.
Anyway, I guess we'll see how all of this - swaggle included - works out in actual gameplay application. That's the true test. Although this is NeoGAF... dude.
Thank you. I've been wanting this explained for some time now.
Now I see what people are talking about. Granted, maybe they weren't even trying to make the game exactly mimic the player's motions the whole time, but hey, maybe they were. I can see where skepticism comes from. I had it in my head that WM+ could do 1:1 perfectly well (probably due to "too sensitive" comments) but now I'm not that sure.
Anyway, I guess we'll see how all of this - swaggle included - works out in actual gameplay application. That's the true test. Although this is NeoGAF... dude.
ZAK said:
I mean, it can do 1:1 but there are drawbacks when compared to sony's solution. Less precise and less accurate and it has z-axis problems/errors (can be seen when people try to do thrust actions straight forward). But it can do 1:1 in the "general sense" for lack of a better phrase.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VixIFLe4LmY
Throwaway123456789
Member
yoopoo said:
That video is over a year old, from E308. Try this one instead (which is also a year old, err yeah, but it shows that the Wiimote is clearly 1:1 :lol)
You've got to be the most anal son of a bitch to care if there is a difference in tech when the end result is pretty much the exact same. Shit!
Edit: ^^^ Damn you!
Tech-heads usually are pretty anal. We just want the best technology that matters to us.FoxHimself said:
Also, HD gaming + a (hopefully) more hardcore focused usage of the motion controller is pretty awesome sounding to me. Only reason I started to dispel Nintendo was because of their more casual approach.
So when I see a more accurate version of what Nintendo originally promised, coupled with the ps3 (which is my console of choice) then I get pretty excited at the possibilities. Hopefully it doesnt end up like the eye-toy with a bunch of gimmicky games. But here's to hoping!
The way I imagined 1st person games on the Wii was how Sony showed it off. Not that "screen-scrolling" way that the Wii introduced. I just see this being used in ways that I've always imagined it. Also, being able to (hopefully) use it with the type of games I love is a big plus. Instead of playing wii sports and such.
Wii is a fun system but it's not an attention holder for ME.
Black-Wind
Member
No, thats part of being a fanboy.FoxHimself said:
I mean really . . . " Less precise and less accurate and it has z-axis problems/errors (can be seen when people try to do thrust actions straight forward). " where are you getting this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IxquJVGEZoBlack-Wind said:
At 4:20 it completely ignores the fact that he just did a thrust forward.
Throwaway123456789
Member
mr_nothin said:
There's absolutely nothing that stops the Wii from getting games that has the same FPS viewpoint as the one shown during the tank/gun presentation on the Sony conference. Even without MotionPlus. Developers have just chosen not to do it that way (but I'm sure there are some games that has it).
But yeah, sure, I can dig your personal preferences, no problem, and the HD/Graphics approach is a valid statement.
Zoramon089
Banned
mr_nothin said:
That was from last year's E3. Come one now, at least use something relevant if you're going to try and make some sort of point
I know there's nothing really stopping them. Well, developers said that 1:1 "didnt work well enough" when asked why they didnt opt for 1:1 fps's. I think it was back when someone did a Call of Duty interview IIRC.FoxHimself said:
But yea, I'm pretty sure they can pull it off. Fact is, is that they haven't so far and dont seem to want to do it. Red Steel 2 isnt even heading in that direction even after wii motion plus. Sooo i'm not sure what to expect.
There's effort put into debates, if you didnt know.Zoramon089 said:
The amount of effort for what exactly? To prove my point? Then yes...i'm puttin a good amount of effort towards that (not really). But I'm putting a little bit of effort towards it though.
Nobody is showing off any thrusting on the z-axis demos. I've watched numerous motion plus demos and have yet to see someone attempt it.
Zoramon089
Banned
mr_nothin said:
Developers have never said that about FPS games. They ARE 1:1. There is NO lag in them, not even the tiny bit some people see in WSR. And by screen scrolling, I'm guessing you're referring to how the camera moves with the pointer, like in every FPS game? Try lightgun games on the Wii then. The screen doesn't scroll
mr_nothin said:
Thrusting doesn't even require motion+, a single accelerometer would allow that. In fact, the original Red Steel allowed thrusting!
Throwaway123456789
Member
mr_nothin said:
This is using a three month old prototype of the MotionPlus. Go read the Iwata Asks thread on the subject. They've upped the specs considerably, and the M+ now registers 1600 degrees of movement per second. You could probably spin the controller in the air and it would register every revolution (lulz) perfectly.
As far as I know, the only difference between the Swaddle and the Wiimote is that the Wiimote sees the sensor bar, while the "sensor bar" sees the Swaddle on the PS3. Wiimote has a 1024x768 camera at 100hz and the PS Eye is 640x480 at 60hz (or 320x240 120hz)
Could someone please explain to me how this ultrasound or whatever the Swaddle has works? Curious to learn what it's used for.
He's referring to using spatial calculations to determine your aim instead of IR. It's an interesting idea, but it does open a whole 'nother can of worms (camera movement, range of motion). I really hope Microsoft and Sony support their motion solutions with the type of fervor that Nintendo has pushed. A couple of inconsequential motion games is extremely different from having a Halo or a MGS supported motion game.