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UC4 Director Says They Had To Ask One 'Sexist Focus Tester' To Leave [Spoilers]

Dantis

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Apr 18, 2012
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The real problem with the Nadine fight is that you have to play through it but can't even land a punch.

Stop wasting my time Druckmann. Why even fucking bother putting it in? Uncharted 4 had a few bits where I felt like they were wasting my time.


The later scene with Nadine is hilarious and awesome though.
 

Parapraxis

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Jan 15, 2009
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I don't think we should award people for not thinking like they come straight from 1960's Alabama. Is that what's going on? Maybe, but everything about Druckmann's responses makes it seem like to me that he's trying to get across how cool ND is about gender. Great job, but I would've bought the game anyway and so would've most people. What benefit in clarifying that they are indeed not social degenerates provide?


Yes it is "great job", you sound like somebody who is bitter that people are addressing/recognizing societal issues such as race and gender under-representation. I'm glad studios like ND want to progress in spite of crybabies.
 

Quote

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Aug 11, 2009
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But is your goal as a writer to be a social beacon of hope? Going back to the 'narrow worldview' comment, it takes too many assumptions to nail what UC4's writing staff's collective worldview is. All I have to go off of is Druckmann's response in the OP and it comes off as brown nosing.
You would think that, because it's clear that you have some bias coming at this. So what is your deal, even if it's brown nosing, what is your problem with it? This devil advocate persona isn't holding up anymore.
 

ethomaz

is mad because DF didn't do a video on a video of a video of a video on PS5
Mar 19, 2013
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I used to be like that but I was also 8. How people haven't grown out of that mentality is baffling to me.
I have preferences of course (like everybody)... some times I prefer to males over woman characters... others woman over male characters.

That is more about charisma and art style than genre.

But in no way I won't play a good game or hate a game because the genre of characters.
 

DarkKyo

Member
Apr 4, 2007
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Lol wtf is that guy's problem? Like anyone with any arbitrary hatred it likely stems from personal issues and fear, like being intimidated by the potential of strong women, or having little confidence in his own masculinity. Pathetic.
 

-griffy-

Banned
Apr 14, 2012
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The real problem with the Nadine fight is that you have to play through it but can't even land a punch.

Stop wasting my time Druckmann. Why even fucking bother putting it in? Uncharted 4 had a few bits where I felt like they were wasting my time.

It's a pretty clever subversion of how you would expect a scene like that to go in any other video game. Rarely does the main character get their ass handed to them like that.
 

Daft Punk

Banned
Oct 24, 2015
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Not defending the guys horrid comment, but I'd imagine having someone constantly asking about the sex of the characters you have planned out could get grating. I didn't think the Nadine thing was real until I went to /v/ last night and saw a 300+ post thread about guys like in OP upset about what Nadine does. I was shocked at the inclination that a woman doesn't have that kind of ability.
 

DedValve

Banned
May 18, 2013
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Representation for representation's sake is concerning, especially when it's sparked by "what if she was a girl!?". Though I doubt that's how it actually goes down once the script has been finalized. It probably just sounded cool to imply that ND is hip and unbothered when it comes to gender, man.

You are absolutely right and I have to agree with you 100% with the bolded because it is very, very true.

Putting white men into roles when developers had originally intended that to be another gender/ethnicity or having to fight to justify why your non-white male should be the protagonist or have a huge impact of the story just for the sake of having more white males is very concerning and I'm glad it's being discussed more in this industry.
 

Dice//

Banned
Jan 24, 2013
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But is your goal as a writer to be a social beacon of hope?

Feeling 'represented' is simply satisfying [to some]. A basic comparison is literally what it feels like to be picked as part of a sports team in gradeschool. We want to see ourselves as heroes, and it's not always easy to do that when one version of "a hero" is constantly used.
 

VeeP

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Jan 14, 2013
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The real problem with the Nadine fight is that you have to play through it but can't even land a punch.

Stop wasting my time Druckmann. Why even fucking bother putting it in? Uncharted 4 had a few bits where I felt like they were wasting my time.


The later scene with Nadine is hilarious and awesome though.

I thought Nadine was awesome. A total badass. But it just annoyed me how we couldn't land one hit. Hell, Nate couldn't grab shit and throw it at her? Playing those fight scenes was a drag.
 

Curufinwe

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May 20, 2009
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Spoilers is you haven't finished U4. Being extra careful cause I only beat the game last night, and if I had been spoiled on the ending I would have been really upset.

A daughter was a much better choice than a son.Young Nate looked goofy enough as it was.

Their choice of dog was a bit lame, though. Should have been a Frenchie like Pogo from those old ND videos.
 

Plum

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Aug 26, 2015
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The one criticism about
Cassie I would agree with somewhat would be that ND has already featured daughters (surrogate and real) in their games so it's not exactly that original for them.
But saying it's bullshit just because
she's a she?
Yeah, not seeing that at all.
 

DarkKyo

Member
Apr 4, 2007
15,588
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The one criticism about
Cassie I would agree with somewhat would be that ND has already featured daughters (surrogate and real) in their games so it's not exactly that original for them.

Lol and?
Seeing as how there's like a 50% chance of being born a female it's not that remote that his offspring is female. Nate's parents had two boys. Are you saying if Nate had a boy it would also not be original? What is original to you, two humans birthing a panda or something?
 

Kai Dracon

Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
Jun 7, 2004
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Space is the Place
The problem with casting a cloud of FUD over the subject of representation is that it invites tumbling down a rabbit hole of circular reasoning. People can endlessly fret over the true motivations of anyone who creates a character or writes a story. "But how do we know they REALLY wanted this character to be a woman? Is there a secret agenda we can't see or taste or touch or prove exists, so totally is likely behind it all? The creator claims that character was gay because it just seemed right? Sounds fishy to me - since when are people gay without a really good reason?"

Nevermind the issue that, IIRC, people who run focus groups have observed White Heterosexual Man had for a number of years become such a generic cliche, that he ended up being selected much of the time because he offended the least number of people. It's not that anyone is particularly in love with the cliche - more of a tired acceptance that sure, why not go with McCharacter and get it over with.
 

Dice//

Banned
Jan 24, 2013
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The problem with casting a cloud of FUD over the subject of representation is that it invites tumbling down a rabbit hole of circular reasoning. People can endlessly fret over the true motivations of anyone who creates a character or writes a story. "But how do we know they REALLY wanted this character to be a woman? Is there a secret agenda we can't see or taste or touch or prove exists, so totally is likely behind it all? The creator claims that character was gay because it just seemed right? Sounds fishy to me - since when are people gay without a really good reason?"

Nevermind the issue that, IIRC, people who run focus groups have observed White Heterosexual Man had for a number of years become such a generic cliche, that he ended up being selected much of the time because he offended the least number of people. It's not that anyone is particularly in love with the cliche - more of a tired acceptance that sure, why not go with McCharacter and get it over with.

Honestly, the lines of questioning about this are utterly baffling and I hope and hope that in 50 years we'll look back and laugh at how ridiculous it was like we do now with this:

Except, hold up, maybe Nate and Elena
didn't have a daughter because that might not be "right"
 

Bollocks

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Feb 7, 2010
4,056
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He was cursing, “Not you, too, Naughty Dog! Goddammit. I guess I’m done with Uncharted, if you guys ever make another one,
with his daughter.
This fucking bullshit.”

lol, instantly read it like this
 

Plum

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Aug 26, 2015
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Lol and?
Seeing as how there's like a 50% chance of being born a female it's not that remote that his offspring is female. Nate's parents had two boys. Are you saying if Nate had a boy it would also not be original? What is original to you, two humans birthing a panda or something?

Note how I said that, after The Last of Us, it's not that original in ND's games, not gaming/entertainment as a whole.
 

HabeeNo

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Holy moly, that's so childish.,, Neil's response was pretty much the same thing I'd say tbh lol
 

mikefrails

Banned
Nov 11, 2015
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Feeling 'represented' is simply satisfying [to some]. A basic comparison is literally what it feels like to be picked as part of a sports team in gradeschool. We want to see ourselves as heroes, and it's not always easy to do that when one version of "a hero" is constantly used.

Fair, I definitely agree.
 

oti

Banned
Aug 5, 2012
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How pathetic do you have to be that
Drake getting beaten up by a woman
is such a big deal breaker for you.
 

Mushroomer25

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Jan 5, 2012
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I disagree with that. Nadine is far too competent and professional to be a generic villain. The truth is
she's really not much of a villain at all, just a bad-ass merc leader who's caught up in the whole thing because she's taken Rafe's money. And as Sully points out in chapter 10, she's not the sort of merc to switch sides on the promise of more cash.

I just don't think they do enough with the character to make her in any way memorable. As you said, she's just caught along for the ride and doesn't even attempt to take control until the last act. Even then, it's completely short lived. She's another generic merc for Nate to get into fistfights with. At minimum Naughty Dog could've done more with her fighting style, wardrobe, or just anything to make the character stand out beyond race/gender. The other new characters for Uncharted 4 are legitimately interesting, because they're given time in the narrative to shine. Nadine only has a few scenes, and her place in the story is that of a second-tier Bond villain. She's the muscle of the operation, and Naughty Dog did nothing to meaningfully innovate on that trope.
 

Quote

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Aug 11, 2009
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I'm black and Nadine is my favorite character.
Uh, cool? I'm not sure how that changes that it's always a pandering thing with you and not better representation and better characters? One can be true as well as both.
 

mikefrails

Banned
Nov 11, 2015
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Uh, cool? I'm not sure how that changes that it's always a pandering thing with you and not better representation and better characters? One can be true as well as both.

Just making sure we're on the same page. You mentioned bias and pointed to a thread I made which was clearly for discussion's sake and did not reflect any of my actual feelings.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Jun 18, 2009
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More evidence on the pile that, as much wailing and gnashing of teeth as there has been, Sarkeesian's work has had an effect on the industry
 

Plum

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Aug 26, 2015
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Right?! He must have HATED that game.

He probably didn't even get past the first act since that has you following around not just a woman, but a gay person and a black person as well. Likely sold his copy as soon as Henry and Sam appeared.
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
Jul 23, 2010
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LOL wow.
Representation for representation's sake is concerning, especially when it's sparked by "what if she was a girl!?".
Why is that concerning?

As a girl I don't see that concerning at all. That sounds like fake concern to me. Concern... trolling...

Though I doubt that's how it actually goes down once the script has been finalized. It probably just sounded cool to imply that ND is hip and unbothered when it comes to gender, man.
What the fuck?
 

Htown

STOP SHITTING ON MY MOTHER'S HEADSTONE
Feb 19, 2008
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Representation for representation's sake is concerning

you need to get past this idea that white and male is the "default" and you need an amazing fucking reason to put somebody else in a video game
 

dLMN8R

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Dec 14, 2007
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More evidence on the pile that, as much wailing and gnashing of teeth as there has been, Sarkeesian's work has had an effect on the industry

Yep! And all Sarkeesian has ever tried to do is raise awareness. In her videos she simply points out tropes that are over-used and boring (and sometimes outright offensive), so that developers can - entirely of their own volition - recognize weaknesses in their own work and improve going forward.

That she's been viciously attacked over doing so is just fucking sad.
 
Nov 23, 2011
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you need to get past this idea that white and male is the "default" and you need an amazing fucking reason to put somebody else in a video game

Uncharted 4 itself is placing men as the default by making all the generic enemy baddies men. Artist should have asked "what if she was a woman?" a few more times.
 

brandonh83

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Jun 26, 2005
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Good fucking god, everything these days with male and female characters get this from someone. The "portrayal" of women in Uncharted 4 was perfectly fine and Elena in particular is an incredibly strong and three dimensional woman. This person is just making blank noise because it's the thing to do these days with every single thing that's popular.
 

braves01

Banned
Nov 8, 2008
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The real problem with making one with
Nates daughter
is that it becomes too Tomb Raider esque.
 

MegaSackman

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Aug 14, 2014
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Druckmann: When I’m introducing and describing a new character to our lead character concept artist, constantly she will ask, “What if it was a girl?” And I’m like, Oh, I didn’t think about that. Let me think, does that affect or change anything? No? Cool, that’s different. Yeah, let’s do it.

This is key,
it's arguably the same if she is a girl or a boy I even think that it'd be worse as a boy, I think it was a good decition.
Sam on the other hand, it's much more convincing as a man due to the relation of brothers and how they behave, I remember that someone complained a week ago saying that Sam should be a woman and I think that wouldn't have worked well or would have been much more difficult to accomplish.
 

DedValve

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May 18, 2013
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Yep! And all Sarkeesian has ever tried to do is raise awareness. In her videos she simply points out tropes that are over-used and boring (and sometimes outright offensive), so that developers can - entirely of their own volition - recognize weaknesses in their own work and improve going forward.

That she's been viciously attacked over doing so is just fucking sad.

I think it was last year an EA exec said how they are much more open to having women in gaming after Anitas videos, either EA or Bioware I can't remember but basically Anita's effect has started and the ruckus she raised I definitely feel has had an impact for the better even if slightly.

Fucking sucks so much ass that she still gets harassed to this day but I'm glad that she still continues to talk about diversity in gaming.
 

Jeffrey

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Feb 8, 2016
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Really the biggest thing about nadine is that, well she's basically just around in cutscenes and 2 QTE's.

Always wondered if she was included later? I mean she sure seems to not care that much about you killing 1000's of her employees as what i'd expect out of most normal human.

She's pretty much the only 'main character' you don't spend any time walking around with in game.
 
Jan 29, 2012
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So
Nadine beating up Nate and Sam
kinda bothered me, but not for sexist reasons. More so because
Nate has been previously been seen beating the cap out of people twice his size by himself, and now he's getting beat up with his brother to someone smaller than him because plot.
Just a consistency thing.

I was very pleased with the epilogue though, that was amazingly well done all around!
 

geordiemp

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Sep 5, 2013
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The real problem with the Nadine fight is that you have to play through it but can't even land a punch.

Stop wasting my time Druckmann. Why even fucking bother putting it in? Uncharted 4 had a few bits where I felt like they were wasting my time.
.

It was ridiculous that 2 large men could not land a hit on a woman in a fist fight - I mean the believability was just laughable for that fight scene.

Having a female baddie is fine, but having her beat up 2 guys and overpower them is a bit much...especially as she had a medium frame and slender build...

Taking it too far...

PS the other castings worked great
 

Emperor_Uriel

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Jun 4, 2011
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Uncharted 5 should star Cassie Drake's black girlfriend.

Sexy lesbians wrap back around into "dudebro approved" territory. Make it her adventures with her 5'3'', overweight boyfriend who has a positive and equal relationship with her, then the MRA riots will commence.