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[MisterFalcon]

By the way, can someone please explain to me what Academi is doing in the Eastern Ukraine right now? Can't there be a single conflict without US PMCs making a profit from it?

Are they ? There was one report in a German tabloid based on anonymous intelligence about them which was repeated by many, more reputable sources but not verified by them. With the powerful pro-Russian lobby in Germany working all out this is a very fishy claim, especially how all the Academi folks managed to avoid appearing in the huge amount of footage coming out of Ukraine.

 

[MisterFalcon]

Tell me more about this lobby, please.

http://www.lithuaniatribune.com/67800/opinion-schroeder-and-putin-an-unseemly-alliance-201467800/

Schroder was supported by the Bild Zeitung, the paper with the exclusive Academi scoop.

 

[antonz]

Turns out hung man reported by Russian media as Mariupol Police Chief was not him but he has now been released by pro Russian forces.

thisisandrej 2h
Oleh #Lyashko: Tortured #Mariupol Police Chief has smashed skull, 4 broken ribs & damaged lung/int organs. Had 1 operation, needs 2 more.

Russian Journalist Pavel Kanygin was abducted and beaten overnight by pro-Russian forces for his news pieces that were not so pro-separatist.

@SimonOstrovsky 15m
Russian journalist Pavel Kanygin @pavlikmail talks about being beaten, drugged, robbed by pro-Russia militants (rus)http://tvrain.ru/articles/menja_dop..._s_dozhdem_srazu_posle_osvobozhdenija-368243/

for the Lulz

‏@MichaelKelleyBI 1m
"Lavrov urged Western ambassadors to base the reports they write about the crisis in Ukraine on what they see on Russian TV."

 

[Simplet]

It's amazing how people here consider themselves as rebels uncovering the truth behind Russia's propaganda but refuse to aknowledge the existence of a western propaganda that is, if not more pregnant, still as effective.

I don't think you understand, noone here considers himself a "rebel" except you people, this is a fucking war, we're not trying to be edgy and we're not writing metal songs for teenagers.

But yeah, western propaganda. The same western propaganda who made headlines everywhere claiming a great turnout for this farce yesterday. Fucking Empty Vessel has just discovered himself a new love for the New York Times and you're coming here with your western propaganda.

Of course we can't talk about the news, no. That would just be so boring. Let's talk some more about the western propaganda.

 

[wsippel]

http://www.lithuaniatribune.com/67800/opinion-schroeder-and-putin-an-unseemly-alliance-201467800/

Schroder was supported by the Bild Zeitung, the paper with the exclusive Academi scoop.

The publisher of Bild and Bild am Sonntag, Kai Diekmann, is a CDU member, close friend of Helmut Kohl and member of the Atlantic Brücke. Bild pretty much stopped supporting Schröder after Diekmann took over in 2001.

 

[Partial Gamification]

http://www.lithuaniatribune.com/67800/opinion-schroeder-and-putin-an-unseemly-alliance-201467800/

Schroder was supported by the Bild Zeitung, the paper with the exclusive Academi scoop.

The Bild Zeitung is extremely anti-Putin. Have you ever read the Bild Zeitung?

The editor-in-chief of the Bild, Kai Diekmann, is chairman of the "Atlantic-Brücke", which is an association founded after WW2 and basically a lobby for the German-American "relationships". The corporate principles of the Bild even say that Bild Zeitung must always support the transatlantic alliance.

Or in other words: the Bild Zeitung is the voice of the US government in Germany.

"Bild am Sonntag" had the exclusive "Academi scoop." It has not been independently verified and is the only source of this story. RT/Voice of Russia are running it, and the Daily Mail is even questioning it.

Academi is a private security company. There are many and they are not all American. Blackwater/Xe/Academi is just the boogeyman to spook people and stir unrest. Its possible that private security contractors are present, I think it was the defense minister that mentioned their possible use/need in his blog a few weeks back.

 

[MisterFalcon]

OK, I stand corrected on Bild as pro-Russian. But as the sole source for any story, especially one so explosive I'll wait for some evidence beyond 'a BND guys said'.

 

[Psychotext]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGTbJ9rp-aY

Its like Russia's Plan backfired long before it went into action.

That's surely can't be legit can it?

 

[Jackpot]

No, it was held so that the New York Times would have to write, honestly, that "[t]he referendums demonstrated that there was substantial popular support for the pro-Russian separatists in some areas." It was a demonstration of local support, which was why it was opposed by the West and Kiev authorities.

So much support they only had 4 polling stations, no registration log, ballot box stuffing and an absurdly fast vote count? Are you really suggesting the vote was representative of anything aside from local corruption?

 

[antonz]

That's surely can't be legit can it?

US has been helping them intercept communications. That one came about a full week before the election.

Not to be outdone by Donetsk region the Luhansk region says they had a resounding 97% vote yes. Funny though Journalists who were on the ground in Luhansk reported very little real activity.

 

[Simplet]

US has been helping them intercept communications. That one came about a full week before the election.

Not to be outdone by Donetsk region the Luhansk region says they had a resounding 97% vote yes. Funny though Journalists who were on the ground in Luhansk reported very little real activity.

97%, hum... Where have I heard this number before...?

 

[Übermatik]

Alright, this is a good a place as any - can someone spell out the situation for me, in, say, bullet points, from the start to now?

I get the general gist of things, but my attention was more focused on the conflict than the actual political/national tones of the whole situation.

I feel bad for not knowing the story here, but I got lost about 20% of the way through when this all kicked off earlier. It's a bit of a mess between Russians, Ukrainians, and Russian supporters in Ukraine, right?

 

[Doczu]

The World Bank gives Russia a loan of 850 milion dollars.

http://niezalezna.pl/55113-unia-wymysla-sankcje-bank-swiatowy-pozyczy-putinowi-prawie-miliard-dolarow

 

[empty vessel]

SAre you really suggesting the vote was representative of anything aside from local corruption?

The New York Times said it demonstrated the existence of "substantial popular support" from locals. Anybody paying attention would have already known that, though.

 

[Simplet]

The New York Times said it demonstrated the existence of "substantial popular support" from locals. Anybody paying attention would have already known that, though.

Substantial popular support for what, though, we'll never know.

 

[JDSN]

It's amazing how people here consider themselves as rebels uncovering the truth behind Russia's propaganda but refuse to aknowledge the existence of a western propaganda that is, if not more pregnant, still as effective.

I dont think anyone is invested into this with the purpose of being rebelious, quit projecting.

 

[kess]

I dont think anyone is invested into this with the purpose of being rebelious, quit projecting.

We are New York Times reading, Pussy Riot loving, 97% internet rebels

 

[Jackpot]

The New York Times said it demonstrated the existence of "substantial popular support" from locals. Anybody paying attention would have already known that, though.

Funny how you didn't address all the documented irreregularities in my post and went with an appeal to authroity of the NYT instead.

Now let's have a look at what the NYT article actually said:

Ukraine Vote on Separation Held in Chaos

Opponents appeared to be staying away from the polls, as many had said they would.

In some other cities, voters took ballots that were run off on photocopiers and stuffed them into cardboard boxes that the organizers spirited off quickly, lest they be seized by pro-government forces.

The provinces of Donetsk and Luhansk are predominantly Russian-speaking rather than Ukrainian-speaking, and in past elections they have tended to back pro-Russian politicians. But that does not mean that most people there want to secede from Ukraine. A poll by the Pew Research Center released this month indicated that 70 percent of respondents in eastern Ukraine favored keeping the country united, while only 18 percent favored secession; the remainder were undecided.

Crude secessionist propaganda posters hung near the polling station, touching dark themes of xenophobia and anti-Semitism. One depicted the current president, Oleksandr V. Turchynov, as a goat-like figure and asked, “Do you want Satan as your president?” Another said Ukrainians should reject the “European Jewish choice.”

In Dobropole, a pro-Ukrainian group staged a counter-referendum, calling for the town to secede from Donetsk Province and join a neighboring province to the west that would remain part of Ukraine. It set up a polling station across a dusty and potholed street from the secessionists, with knots of men guarding each side.

Here's the paragraphs with the single sentence about support you lifted:

The referendums demonstrated that there was substantial popular support for the pro-Russian separatists in some areas. But it offered no reliable gauge of the breadth of that support. It was not clear whether long voting lines had formed because few polling places were open, or because turnout was running high.

At a half-dozen polling places visited by reporters, except for those in Slovyansk, there were no voting rolls to consult; anyone who could show a local address in official identity papers was allowed to cast a ballot. Tatyana Us, a volunteer election official, referred to the practice as “open list” voting.

Troll much?

It's impossible to misinterpret an article that much, you had to be wilfully lying about its content and hoped no one would call you on it.

Also you yourself criticised the NYT as more western propaganda when it allowed a Venezuelan political exile to write an op-ed criticising the new Venezuelan government.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=768203&page=6

 

[antonz]

Donetsk Separatists after saying they had no intention of joining Russia changed mind and have now asked Russia to consider annexing their region.

@mike_giglio 10m
Exciting news: the leader of the People's Republic of Donetsk has asked Russia to consider letting it join.

 

[empty vessel]

Funny how you didn't address all the documented irreregularities in my post and went with an appeal to authroity of the NYT instead.

Now let's have a look at what the NYT article actually said:

I quoted what the New York Times said: "The referendums demonstrated that there was substantial popular support for the pro-Russian separatists in some areas [i.e., eastern Ukraine]." It said that despite alleged irregularities (the most glaring of which was the presence of death squads sent from Kiev intended to intimidate people into staying away).

In case it isn't clear, it wasn't the outcome of the referendum that demonstrated the popular support, it was the New York Times's observation of activities and speaking with people who had come to vote. Of course, anybody paying actual attention already knew that.

 

[Partial Gamification]

Alright, this is a good a place as any - can someone spell out the situation for me, in, say, bullet points, from the start to now?

I get the general gist of things, but my attention was more focused on the conflict than the actual political/national tones of the whole situation.

I feel bad for not knowing the story here, but I got lost about 20% of the way through when this all kicked off earlier. It's a bit of a mess between Russians, Ukrainians, and Russian supporters in Ukraine, right?

I think you would be better to check a timeline, or timelines for comparison:
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europ...aine-political-crisis-201431143722854652.html
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-26248275

From there, any specific questions could be addressed.

The OP could be updated at some point soon before the 25th of May if somewhat of a neutral (somewhat because let's face it - not purely possible) summary of [updated] events [was provided], I'll suggest the two timelines posted here for reference but I'll recognize that I'm biased towards what I understand as Kiev's and the West's, and against the Kremlin's/Putin's [and pro-Russian militants'], intentions.

 

[Simplet]

In case it isn't clear, it wasn't the outcome of the referendum that demonstrated the popular support

and yet :

Donetsk Separatists after saying they had no intention of joining Russia changed mind and have now asked Russia to consider annexing their region.

What a twist!

I quoted what the New York Times said: "The referendums demonstrated that there was substantial popular support for the pro-Russian separatists in some areas [i.e., eastern Ukraine]." It said that despite alleged irregularities (the most glaring of which was the presence of death squads sent from Kiev intended to intimidate people into staying away).

By "some areas" they obviously didn't mean "eastern Ukraine", to say nothing of the rest of your post that I literally can not begin to apprehend. There is something really unpleasant about arguing with someone who keeps being willingly disingenuous.

 

[Jackpot]

I quoted what the New York Times said: "The referendums demonstrated that there was substantial popular support for the pro-Russian separatists in some areas [i.e., eastern Ukraine]." It said that despite alleged irregularities (the most glaring of which was the presence of death squads sent from Kiev intended to intimidate people into staying away).

If you hadn't tried so hard to jettison the context of the article, you'd know it meant "in some areas [that have seen separatist movements]", like Donetsk. Not within the whole Ukraine itself.

And that line came right after the paragraph ""But that does not mean that most people there want to secede from Ukraine. A poll by the Pew Research Center released this month indicated that 70 percent of respondents in eastern Ukraine favored keeping the country united, while only 18 percent favored secession; the remainder were undecided."

In case it isn't clear, it wasn't the outcome of the referendum that demonstrated the popular support, it was the New York Times's observation of activities and speaking with people who had come to vote. Of course, anybody paying actual attention already knew that.

That makes zero sense.

It said that despite alleged irregularities (the most glaring of which was the presence of death squads sent from Kiev intended to intimidate people into staying away).

Were the referendums yesterday carried out fair and properly, yes or no? Do you deny there was ballot stuffing, no registration cross-checking, insufficient poll stations for 78% of the population to have voted, insufficient time for the results to be hand-counted? Don't pussy-foot around the issue.

 

[commedieu]

guise...

 

[Simplet]

guise...

It's too hard to resist!!!

 

[empty vessel]

If you hadn't tried so hard to jettison the context of the article, you'd know it meant "in some areas [that have seen separatist movements]", like Donetsk. Not within the whole Ukraine itself.

I thought that was quite obvious and in need of no further exploration that "some areas" referred to the regions in which the referendum was being held.

And that line came right after the paragraph ""But that does not mean that most people there want to secede from Ukraine. A poll by the Pew Research Center released this month indicated that 70 percent of respondents in eastern Ukraine favored keeping the country united, while only 18 percent favored secession; the remainder were undecided."

What does seceding from the Ukraine have to do with anything? This was about demonstrating the legitimacy of--the existence of local popular support for--resisting installed authorities in Kiev. To show that contrary to the western and Kiev narrative irresponsibly painting the resistance as "terrorists" in order to legitimate using military force against them, the local population was not opposed to the armed resistance.

Were the referendums yesterday carried out fair and properly, yes or no?

I don't know. I suspect there may have been irregularities given the conditions. And voting in these conditions is never ideal. But that's not the point of the exercise. The point was so that media could see people coming out to support militant resistance to Kiev. So that people can see that the people controlling local government buildings and denying the authority of the Kiev regime have support within the community.

Do you deny there was ballot stuffing, no registration cross-checking, insufficient poll stations for 78% of the population to have voted, insufficient time for the results to be hand-counted? Don't pussy-foot around the issue.

I've seen no reliable evidence for any of that, nor do I think it's all that important, unless you deny the existence of all of the physical people observed by journalists who came to polling stations and voted yes. That was what allowed journalists to conclude that substantial popular support existed. They literally observed people coming in and showing support. Do you deny that the resistance to Kiev in the east has local support?

 

[Simplet]

I thought that was quite obvious and in need of no further exploration that "some areas" referred to the regions in which the referendum was being held.

For fuck sake no, the whole article is written in the context of eastern Ukraine and the referendum, it's painfully obvious that "some areas" means "some areas in eastern Ukraine". And you fucking know it.

I've seen no reliable evidence for any of that, nor do I think it's all that important, unless you deny the existence of all of the physical people observed by journalists who came to polling stations and voted yes. That was what allowed journalists to conclude that substantial popular support existed. They literally observed people coming in and showing support. Do you deny that the resistance to Kiev in the east has local support?

Obviously noone questions that the separatists have local support, what kind of a stupid fucking question is that? He just posted a poll showing that 18% of the eastern population approves of seceding from the country. That's still a massive minority.

edit : I can't stop myself, ban me if you must.

 

[iJudged]

I can't stop myself, ban me if you must.

As you wish.

 

[kess]

Al Jazeera: Ukraine regions to boycott presidential vote

Separatist leaders of Donetsk and Luhansk say the May 25 vote will not be held in the two eastern regions.

 

[SymbiantXenos]

Al Jazeera: Ukraine regions to boycott presidential vote

They'll probably be a part of Russia within a week, then it's onto Odessa.

Sigh....

 

[Nilaul]

They'll probably be a part of Russia within a week, then it's onto Odessa.

Sigh....

Doubt it this time around; Ukraine seems to be willing to attack and why have they been arming them-self lately if not for this opportunity?

 

[SymbiantXenos]

Doubt it this time around; Ukraine seems to be willing to attack and why have they been arming them-self lately if not for this opportunity?

As Nato isn't about to get involved. A conflict would only go one way. I go back on forth on the issue though, part of me thinks they should fight back at times then part of me thinks they shouldn't.

But then again ive been involved in this in the saftey of my own armchair in England since november.

 

[Nilaul]

 

[SymbiantXenos]

Who knew Ukraine was in the middle east.

 

[Deadbeat]

I sometimes wonder if its an intern just trolling people over someone being that stupid.

 

[Partial Gamification]

Who knew Ukraine was in the middle east.

Looks like Afghanistan/Pakistan, not the Middle East. Still another absurd error on CNN's part.

 

[kess]

No wonder CNN can't find the plane.

 

[hEist]

In a time, where google maps/earth exists.

 

[SymbiantXenos]

No wonder CNN can't find the plane.

lol'd

Trying to find news on the forth coming presidential election, heard there where some TV debates but can't find anything.

 

[raphier]

Who knew Ukraine was in the middle east.

It's Eastern Ukraine, duh.

 

[Virzeth]

131 pages long report from OSCE publicly available now.

Daniel Baer ‏@danbbaer - 1h
OSCE's @osce_odihr & HCNM @AstridThors just released human rights assessment of situation in Ukraine. My stmt: http://1.usa.gov/1nB2VwF

The tweet: https://twitter.com/danbbaer/status/465952309080776704

The statement: http://osce.usmission.gov/may_12_14_pressrelease.html

The report itself (PDF): http://www.osce.org/odihr/118476

 

[Chumly]

I like how these separatist leaders think this is somehow democratic to join Russia. Never mind the fact that the independence vote was a complete and utter sham but these unelected leaders decide that they can make the decision to join Russia? What a fucking joke.

 

[Loxley]

I like how these separatist leaders think this is somehow democratic to join Russia. Never mind the fact that the independence vote was a complete and utter sham but these unelected leaders decide that they can make the decision to join Russia? What a fucking joke.

Seriously, unless this is all one hell of an elaborate con, those guys need to be wearing tinfoil hats.

 

[antonz]

Russia's most famous actress Maria Tsypko showed up in Luhansk for Referendum day.

She has gone from a Crimean Citizen showing up in Moscow begging for Russia's help to an Odessa refugee running for her life as the government hunts her and her children down to many other roles. Now her most famous role of them all a Referendum Committee organizer from Luhansk.
http://youtu.be/mYlDRUnzvsc

 

[SymbiantXenos]

Russian propaganda is hilariously stuck in the past. It's as if the internet doesn't exist.

 

[antonz]

In a bit of good news in the city of Mykolaiv saw Maidan and Anti-Maidan forces hold a meeting and they came to the conclusion that both sides really have the same end goals and will work together to prevent Separatists from trying to bring havoc to their region.

http://gordonua.com/news/maidan/V-N...bedinilis-Evromaydan-i-Antimaydan--22309.html

rough translation

"Literally within 10 minutes we found out that we have no ideological contradictions: we both do not want war, we want to live in a united Ukraine, we say in Russian, we support the rule of law, we are in favor of development, we are not happy last no authority nor the incumbent. We both small entrepreneurs, we want to develop their business in a quiet peaceful town "- said Golobrodsky.


Former ideological adversaries have decided that we need to unite, not to turn into a second Odessa or second Mariupol

 

[ambientmystic]

In a bit of good news in the city of Mykolaiv saw Maidan and Anti-Maidan forces hold a meeting and they came to the conclusion that both sides really have the same end goals and will work together to prevent Separatists from trying to bring havoc to their region.

http://gordonua.com/news/maidan/V-N...bedinilis-Evromaydan-i-Antimaydan--22309.html

rough translation

Waitaminit, Anti-Maidan folks aren't part of the separatists?

I always thought that a portion of them at least would be sympathetic to their cause.

 

[antonz]

Waitaminit, Anti-Maidan folks aren't part of the separatists?

I always thought that a portion of them at least would be sympathetic to their cause.

I think the best way to look at it is there are 3 parties at play right now.

Party A:The Maidan who wanted Yanukovych and his crony ties to Russia Gone.
Party B: Anti-Maidan who want the corruption and Yanukovych etc. gone but did not agree with the process done by Maidan.
Party C: Separatists funded mostly by Russia who want nothing but close ties to Russia. Most Separatist manpower are Russians and not Ukrainians

I don't doubt there are element's of Party B that are sympathetic with Party C but most just want a bright future for a Unified Ukraine.

 

[demolitio]

Waitaminit, Anti-Maidan folks aren't part of the separatists?

I always thought that a portion of them at least would be sympathetic to their cause.

Of course not all of them would want to go as far as separatists and basically join Russia. They can disagree with the political movements but they still want to be Ukrainians and if anything, they're the ones I respect the most since the easy thing would be to join the separatists, but no, they want to stay in Ukraine for better or worse.

Those are the people that want real democracy it sounds like. Just because they disagree with something doesn't mean they want their country to fall apart, right?

 

[C4Lukins]

It would be wonderful if cable news was covering this.

But FoxNews is talking about the first homosexual NFL player. And they are actually pretty cool about it, but it should be a small story with all the other shit going on. They are also talking about the perceived failure of Obamacare, and the IRS attack on Republicans.

MSNBC, is reporting on all FoxNews stories, and explaining why they are bull shit.

And then we have CNN. They are reporting on a plane crash and a boat sinking. Meanwhile Putin is happening.