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Ukraine/Russia conflict NEWS thread - Updates on the Ukrainian crisis.
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empty vessel
Member
No offense, besada, but this is not now, nor was it ever, a news thread. Most of the content in this thread is not news. The thread was created as a mechanism to limit meaningful discussion about US and EU foreign policy, as evidenced by the fact that, shortly after this thread was created, the thread which spurred the creation of this thread as a place to avoid the deeper discussion of the issues that was occurring there was closed. Most of the content of this thread is the same as the other thread, with the exception of dissent. When dissent enters, the moderators appear to remind us it is a news thread.
The moderators are just serving as enforcers of politically acceptable thought and discussion here. There's nothing necessarily wrong with that as a general principle. It's what allows moderators to act against racist, sexist, and homophobic content, which I support. But acting in that manner on an issue like this is totally unacceptable to me. It's why I don't bother posting on neogaf anymore.
As someone who literally entered the thread at another moderator's request, and knows little of its history, I can really only go by the thread title, OP, and intent, which is that this is supposed to be a news thread. I have no problem with a deeper discussion, and don't mind if you start another thread for such a discussion. But we have often in the past designated threads as news, rather than detailed discussion threads, not to enforce an orthodoxy of opinion, but to make it possible for interested GAFfers to be able to look into the thread and see what's happening, without having to wade through a four page argument of esoterica between two ideologically rigid opponents.
In short, this thread isn't the EV and Resident_UA thread. There's nothing stopping you two from going at it hammer and tongs in PM, or, as I've said, you're welcome to make a general discussion thread on the subject. I've been asked to get this thread back and focused on news and events, rather than an endless fight between you two, so that's what we're going to do.
In future, if you'd like to discuss moderation, including this, PM me.
I feel its history is important to know as the main issue that led to the restriction of discussion was the massive derails by empty_vessel by dismissing all news sources showing Russia's actions in a bad light as "propaganda", and then posting the most tenuous, fringe, conspiracy links that supported his world view. He was banned for it before despite many, many warnings from mods and has now come back to the thread to post literally the same links.
Good to know. Now if anyone would like to discuss issues other than news, I suggest you go make a thread for it, because regardless of this thread's history, it is now a news thread, and non-news related posts will be considerd off-topic.
Seriously, if you want to have deeper discussion, go start a thread. One thread, not two or three or six.
Phantast2k
Member
So this doesn't check out with the reports & pictures from the ground (when using geo locations & common sense):
http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.de/2014/11/rocket-that-hit-school-no63-did-not.html
Hmm, interesting.
---------------------------------
Meanwhile Donetsk saw some of the heaviest fighting over night (here's to those Russian artillery convoys):
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29975341
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014...dType=RSS&feedName=topNews&utm_source=twitter
I'm pretty sure I know how this statement came to be. Probably giving diplomacy a chance:
Lavrov to Meet Kerry for Talks Ahead of APEC Summit in China
---------------------------------
As for the NATO perspective, a NATO Defence Defense College:
Russia's Hybrid Warfare -Waging War below the Radar of Traditional Collective (pdf)
Great oped on Russian bullshit factory, RT:
http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...nics-lap-up-putins-tv-poison?CMP=share_btn_tw
& McCain released a statement on Ukraine:
http://www.mccain.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/press-releases?ID=74d52b1b-ce2d-408b-bc30-211595c85d46
NY Times: McCain Poised to Press Obama, and Pentagon, at Armed Services Helm
Can't believe I'm agreeing with McCain...
EricTheCleric
Member
Be aware of news coming from Sputnik News. It is a new media venture cooperation between Ria Novosti (now called Sputnik) and Russia Today. Kiselev is the man in charge. So be prepared to take anything from this source with a traktor scoop of salt.
Appears Voice Of Russia is part of this as well. Radio aimed at international audience, 30 languages. Kremling going into overdrive.
http://sputniknews.com/russia/20141110/1014569630.html
Appears Voice Of Russia is part of this as well. Radio aimed at international audience, 30 languages. Kremling going into overdrive.
http://sputniknews.com/russia/20141110/1014569630.html
EricTheCleric
Member
CHEEZMO;138244741 said:
yes, it is
he is the chosen one to protect the world from aggressive propaganda....
Veritigo_X
Member
The Dutch salvage team for MH17 was unable to start recovering wreckage today due to a deal not being reached between the OSCE and the rebel group in Donetsk.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30000967
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30000967
Veritigo_X
Member
NATO has confirmed the presence of the Russian troops and military equipment entering eastern Ukraine. The article mentions they were spotted in Shakhtarsk on Monday, but I'm not sure if they are talking about the same column that entered last week or a new one.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30025138
EDIT: Russian Defense Ministry is denying these claims: http://www.interfax.ru/406837. It's in Russian if someone wants to translate, but you get the gist through Google Translate.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30025138
EDIT: Russian Defense Ministry is denying these claims: http://www.interfax.ru/406837. It's in Russian if someone wants to translate, but you get the gist through Google Translate.
Russian Roulette (Dispatch 86).... Sentenced to Death by a Crowd
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fV70uDYUqlc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fV70uDYUqlc
Phantast2k
Member
Yeah, I was also about to post this along with this NSFW (Antisemitic) troll tweet: https://twitter.com/nyepx/status/531717842929192960 (posted by an apparent Putin troll in response to VICE's Simon Ostrovsky tweet).
I recognized Yarosh (Right Sector) and R.S. colors, but with the star of David. Asked a friend (Russian Jew) to explain wtf is that supposed to mean - who responded today:
- This is antisemitic, alleging that Maidan actors and Ukrainian nationalists are Jews with big noses.
- This plays on Right Sector's alleged connections to an Ukrainian-Jewish oligarch. From the BBC article:
- Not Yarosh himself, but Right Sector speaker Borislav Bereza is Jewish. He only gave a Ru link though:
https://translate.google.de/transla...ews/2014/06/18/178260.html&edit-text=&act=url
I searched for "bereza right sector jew" to find Eng. links. And the first result was a Novorossia fan sites are touting the fact that the guy is Jewish and...."Borislav Bereza (real name Blyakher) - jewish zionist who came from Israel to kill Russians in Ukraine...(a core of "right sector" are all jewish emigrants servicemen of IDF!)......":
https://www.facebook.com/5744776059...41828.574477605978934/723713294388697/?type=1
Seems like a reoccurring theme for Novorossia fans...
Legit links on him being jewish:
http://www.i24news.tv/app.php/en/ne...or-putin-s-russia-now-worse-than-soviet-union
http://www.jpost.com/Diaspora/Russi...Semitism-reports-as-wartime-propaganda-378664
And this should also be quoted from the article:
Mariupol is being held by Ukrainian army.
People pushing the Ukraine = Nazi agenda can fuck right off (into Putin's lap) at this point...
VICE dispatch on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fV70uDYUqlc
Currently catching up on today's events. Apparently open war is a matter of time now:
"Ukraine crisis: Russian troops crossed border, Nato says": http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30025138
US Security council session:
http://webtv.un.org/live-now/watch/security-council-ukraine/3086187116001
/look at the office of this fucking Russian warlord:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fV70uDYUqlc&t=7m
Are you fucking kidding me? Is that what he envisions for his "fiefdom"?
A Human Becoming
More than a Member
I wonder if Donetsk and Luhansk separating or joining Russia is inevitable. The Minsk Protocol for ceasefire was a failure.
CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
Of course. They are establishing a totalitarian Fascist state in Eastern Ukraine.
I mean just look at the groups fighting there - Russian National Unity, Russian Jihad (headed by a white supremacist Iron Guard fanboy), Terek Wolf Sotnia, disciples of Aleksandr Dugin, people who literally worship Stalin as a religious idol, people who thought the Black Hundredists were pretty cool guys, people who miss the Tsar, religious fundamentalists. It goes on and on and on.
Ultranationalists and Fascists of every kind. Even explicit neo-Nazis. Thousands of them invading Ukraine as part of some hyper-nationalist fantasy of a resurgent Russian Empire / Purified homeland for the Russian Volk / Stalinist USSR / Third Rome depending on which murderous lunatic group you talk to. A fantasy that they are bent on making reality.
A crisis directly facilitated (and wholly created) by Ukraine's imperialist neighbour - the crypto-Fascist mafia state determined to destroy Ukraine because it can't have it. Russia is the rural Indian loser throwing acid in the face of the girl who didn't want to date him.
Militant Russian Orthodoxy is very real and very much what a lot of these nuts are after.
Putin and company learned a very important thing from Communism etc. Much easier to control the people with a State run puppet religion than to try and force atheism on everyone.
Russian Orthodox churches preaching for the destruction of Ukraine etc.
As the one living in russia, i see things much less complicated. There's oil and gas in these lands. Russia wants it and there only way to get it is to fight it so russia sends mercenaries to fight. That's it. I guess western mass media make up a lot of things 'bout russia in order to attract more people, thus selling advertising for more.CHEEZMO;138579877 said:
sadceph2001
Member
Is it justifiable for Russia to be seeking another nation's gas?
No, that's why no official army here, only mercenaries. Russia wasn't able to make up a perfect reason (like a never found mass destruction weapon in Iraq by US) for a full scope invasion, hence, russia is very restricted here.
Veritigo_X
Member
So you are not against Russia sending their own troops and equipment under the guise of "mercenaries" (or whatever laughable excuses they come up with) against a neighboring nation just to get resources? That's not how things work in the modern day. There are these things called trade agreements that are used as a way to negotiate resources between nations. This isn't fucking Civilization.
No, I'm against it. I wish Crimea stayed Ukraine and nothing this ever happened.
You are talking about trade agreement? Iraq didn't agree with US as to the oil trading and got a full scale invasion under the false pretence of having a chemical weapons which US didn't even bother to plant afterwards. That's the world we are living in. If US, the most civilized nation, does such things, then what do you expect from "barbarians" like Putin?
Resident_UA
Member
You are partially right about blaming US, but at least they had enough dignity not to annex Iraqi territory. I don't think this is very comparable.
Better example would be a conflict that US had with Mexico or Canada. But at least there US is acting relatively responsibly. Putin just does not care who's a friend and who's an enemy.
MonsterHunter
Member
They are official in all but name. Official modern Russian tanks, official modern Russian weapons. They answer to Putin. Young Russian men sent to die, returning to hidden graves with no sense of closure for their parents.
US would annex Iraq if Iraq was a US territory since 1783 (like Crimea was Russian land), more than half of Iraq citizens were americans (half of Crimeans are russian) and the rest of the citizens spoken English fluently (russian is a main lang. in crimea). In that case they would do a referendum and they would told Europe to support it. That would be enough for US. BBC and CNN news would be swelling from "democracy and nation's united will are taking over a dictator's reign in Iraq which returned to US".
Year, surely, somewhere in the internet it is just like you described, coz it attracts a lot of clicks and raises the price for ad' services. But here in Russia, actually, everything is a way more boring than that.
I'm not saying you are wrong or anything, but where does the equipment come from? And all the tanks etc. Are there mercenary groups in russia that has these kind of things on stand by, or do they steal from the army? Any idea on how this work?
Even if we entertain the hypothetical, it wouldn't fly if the majority of Iraqi citizens did not want to be 're-unified', just like in our current scenario.
1) russian forces write off equipment as broken or aged to utilization, then at nights when cloudy weather they are sending it to rebels;
2) rebels take away equipment from Ukraine army;
3) rebels buy equipment from Ukraine army.
I do not trust the internet sources from which you got that opinion. My colleagues has relatives in Crimea they are glad they become officially russian. A lot of people I heard saying about their trip to Crimea for a vacation were saying that locals are quite content with the current situation except for tatars, but they are a very minority and they worry for their lands which they illegally took which can be taken back from them due to russian law.
I, myself, plan go to Crimea this summer and I will see for myself how things are going))
Remember to visit the people hiding in fear, and not just the people who think Russia is the greatest thing in the world.
What are talking about? People hiding in fear? From what? From tourists like me?
I'm going to go here as a tourist to sea resort +plus some sightseeings in mountains. I will meet a lot of locals and ask them if something changed after annexation. I think that this is a more correct way to form an opinion rather than to form it based on the CNN/BBC/youtube hiding in fear news.MonsterHunter
Member
That place is called the real world. It's hardly surprising you're left with mundane news given you have zero freedom of press and journalists that don't tow the government line are routinely targeted.
http://www.newsweek.com/russian-mothers-waiting-news-their-missing-sons-267909
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/22/w...-bear-witness-to-russias-role-in-ukraine.html
You think the Mothers of dead soldiers are lying?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lz3Fwf0DYDw
http://news.sky.com/story/1329691/sky-films-troops-in-russian-gear-in-ukraine
You think they summon modern tanks from thin air?
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...-flees-country-after-being-forced-out-as-ceo/
The founder of VKontakte had to flee Russia to avoid being locked up like so many others who dared to think for themselves. Just another boring day in Russia right?
What are talking about? People hiding in fear? From what? From tourists like me?
How else can it be, 99% voted for annexation, right?
There's absolutely no restriction as to where you get your news. I like the source newsru.com which is a russian lang anti Putin US based site. But it lies too. The only real source if you see it for your self. But that's is a complicated way. None of us would get their butts from chair for it. But I at least live in Russia and can see something or ask someone personally.
1) They may NOT be mothers of dead soldiers. 2) Solders die a lot in Russia without going to Ukraine or Chechnya or somethings (e.g. due to a fatal mistakes at explosives utilization procedures around 10 people die each year).
I wrote above where they come from, read it.
He recently been back http://newstwenty4seven.com/en/news/pavel-durov-vernulsja-v-rossiju-nenadolgo
But I do not think that traveling of a russian multimillionaire really characterizes anything rather than the fact that he's got hell of a money and can travel to moon if he wants to.
MonsterHunter
Member
To say there are no restrictions on news ignores the harassment, jailing and deaths of many journalists speaking out against Putin's government, you're a lost cause.
Durov is just another of many intelligent young entrepreneurs fleeing the country to the benefit of others while Russia's innovation flounders and the economy is left to oligarchs, friends and cronies of Putin.
Many comments of support and 200k likes. The shining light is that not all the youth are as blind to what's happening as you.
Durov is just another of many intelligent young entrepreneurs fleeing the country to the benefit of others while Russia's innovation flounders and the economy is left to oligarchs, friends and cronies of Putin.
Many comments of support and 200k likes. The shining light is that not all the youth are as blind to what's happening as you.
To say there are no restrictions on news ignores the harassment, jailing and deaths of many journalists speaking out against Putin's government, you're a lost cause.
Durov is just another of many intelligent young entrepreneurs fleeing the country to the benefit of others while Russia's innovation flounders and the economy is left to oligarchs, friends and cronies of Putin.
Many comments of support and 200k likes. The shining light is that not all the youth are as blind to what's happening as you.
Man, you lost the topic. As to the picture above. I agree with everything. These are disadvantages of the current political and financial conditions of Russia. But, you gotta keep in mind that 10 years ago everything was even worse. Not to say 20 or 30 years ago. So, russia clambers very slowly from the shit hole of 90th. But this is not the topic of this thread.
As to the restrictions on news, I tell you that there's no. I can watch any channel of the world on my cable . But, e.g. in Ukraine every russian channel is prohibited.
Resident_UA
Member
By your logic Russia could annex Brooklyn
. If you are not aware US has few territories that aren't even states yet. Annexing is pretty serious offence in international community. Just look at Falkland islands. I don't think you really understand what Russia did...Resident_UA
Member
I guess arguments with you might get off topic again... Let's make it simple. Could you answer the question below in one sentence?
Why there's a war in Ukraine?
In my opinion, it is indirect war between US and Russia for controlling Ukraine lands.
That is the answer. Some comments below.
US used bad economical condition in Ukraine to facilitate change of government and put pro-US/EU government here. Putin got scared that russian marine fleet will eventually be kicked out from Crimea, Ukraine will become NATO, and there will be NATO base in Crimea. Also, this shale gas in east of Ukraine. That's it. But, we should ask Putin and Obama for real reasons, which we may never know.
And let me ask you for your opinion regarding reasons for the ongoing war?
By your logic Russia could annex Brooklyn
Absolutely not, it is not possible to annex anything from a nuclear weapon nation like US or Russia. And I know how serious it is. Putin had to do a better job before everything started in Ukraine, so no extreme measures would be needed. Like investing in Ukraine economy so people can get busy with their good well-paid jobs and not making revolutions. In that case no annexation would be need for securing russian marine fleet in Crimea.
Resident_UA
Member
My short answer would be Russian media. Now long answer...
2013: Economy over the past two years was doing OK. Not very well but not as bad as in 2008-2009. Ukrainians got pissed off because their president was selling out Ukraine to Russia and was getting NOTHING in return. You can say that US and EU were involved as well, but whatever they helped with would not get THAT many people on the streets.
End of 2013: Putin had no idea that Ukrainians actually CARED and didn't just start revolting because US paid them to. So he assumed that revolution in Ukraine could be stopped by force, he just needed an excuse to use it. That's where Russian propaganda started working and fascists were invented. You have to remember that at that point half of Ukrainian TV was against people on Maidan. The use of force only made things worse for Putin. At that point only more people showed up.
Beginning of 2014: Putin lost. Yanukovich ran to Russia (which only proves that Putin was always behind all of this)
March/April: Putin takes Crimea as a revenge. His main goal is to destabilize Ukraine to show that Revolution is always bad. (That's an opinion, but I just can't buy a story where Putin is afraid of Nato. Is he expecting to be at war with them? Who cares where their bases are?)
May/June 2014: Eastern Ukraine starts freaking out. Russian "volunteer" battalions start capturing Ukrainian cities. People in those cities are scared by Russian TV and believe that Ukrainian army wants to exterminate them. At this point eastern region is destabilized enough for Putin to do whatever he wants to. It's just a mystery what he wants...
What's missing here is the will of Ukrainian people. You can keep saying that Crimea never wanted to be part of Ukraine and DNR and LNR want to separate. This could be partially true, but there are no concrete numbers that would suggest it, and even if they existed the reasoning would be pretty much the same as Russian TV suggests.
What Russia likes to add, but there's absolutely no evidence of, is hat US is behind ALL of this. I guess anything is possible, but I know people who were at maidan every day during winter, and I know a lot of volunteers who joined Ukrainian army. They couldn't care less about US. In fact they realized long time ago that nobody will be helping Ukraine.
Another important point is that US as a nation just DOES NOT CARE about Russia. Russia is only in the news when something crazy happens, during Olympics most reporting (aside from LGBT issue) was positive, during 1990s when Russian economy was doing really bad US happily financed Moscow hoping that this would lead to democracy.
And now we get to the Russian Media. Why do I blame them? Because none of these Putin's plans would be possible without Russian propaganda. The Crimea would not have been Russian, Ukrainians in the East would not be afraid of Ukrainians from the west, there would not be a conflict between Russians and Ukrainians. You keep saying that people in Russian have access to any news they want to, but all the studies how that they mostly watch state owned news channels (even opposition radio "Echo" is owned by Gasprom) and they BELIEVE these channels. Ukrainians learned a hard way not to trust the news, but Russians still do.
Just wanted to add this as it is relevant to the thread
Russia’s Channel One show satellite photo evidencing MH17 was downed by fighter jet
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=933121
Another fake news story by Russian government owned media.
Russia’s Channel One show satellite photo evidencing MH17 was downed by fighter jet
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=933121
Another fake news story by Russian government owned media.
Rebels destroy a Ukrainian BMP-2 in Pisky:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqXiFZj2mTM
Terrible to see young men dying. Given that it was in Pisky, the BMP likely belonged to the neo-Nazi Right Sector militia.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqXiFZj2mTM
Terrible to see young men dying. Given that it was in Pisky, the BMP likely belonged to the neo-Nazi Right Sector militia.
Resident_UA
Member
There's always a chance it belonged to fascist Russians.
CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UpMBH8NmG4
Seems like new footage taken shortly after MH17 was shot down.
Seems like new footage taken shortly after MH17 was shot down.
Phantast2k
Member
CHEEZMO;139092988 said:
Apparently they speak of rockets there:
Which to me points to an Surface to air missile. And how would one see an air to air rocket fired in 10km anyway?
Here's what a plane looks like in 10km:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjbnWPIMqnA
You don't even notice a plane that high unless you're looking for it. If it all, normal ass people would have looked up only after something hit the plane.
I just hope the Dutch can find the guy speaking (since they currently remove the wreckage) and interview him.
EricTheCleric
Member
Apparently they speak of rockets there:
Which to me points to an Surface to air missile. And how would one see an air to air rocket fired in 10km anyway?
Here's what a plane looks like in 10km:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjbnWPIMqnA
You don't even notice a plane that high unless you're looking for it. If it all, normal ass people would have looked up only after something hit the plane.
I just hope the Dutch can find the guy speaking (since they currently remove the wreckage) and interview him.
where I grew up planes flying to USA goes directly over our house. You can see the almost the whole body of the conditions are good, main wings but not tail wings. I doubt it would be possible to see an air-to-air at that height though a ground to air rocket of BUK size would be easier to spot due to sound and size. Maybe you can spot a air-to-air from the exhaust smoke but I do not think the trail is big enough to be noticed.
MisterFalcon
Member
On the video you can see there were clouds overhead so you could not see any planes at 10km from the ground anyway.
Phantast2k
Member
Good point!
Yeah, I also saw quite a lot of planes, but next to airports and you can never tell if it's exactly 10km or close to it.
You can def. see a surface to air missile more clearly, for the reasons you stated and simply because it leaves a trail from the ground up. Too bad the quality is lacking so that a trail is impossible to make out.
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