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US gun debate: Obama unveils gun control proposals

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That actually sounds a little like what Dan Carlin proposed in his latest show. http://www.dancarlin.com/disp.php/csarchive/Show-244---Gunning-for-Violence/guns-firearms-gun%20control

Imagine people getting something like 36 years in prison just for illegally carrying a firearm. I'm sure that would have an effect on someone.

Ugh, even worse I actually misread the sentence. It's just saying to maximize efforts to prevent gun violence, and maximize efforts to prosecute, not maximize penalties.

So it's more about just actually having the cops do their jobs more often?
 
Why, precisely, do you care about 10 round clips? You can still keep your damned guns. You can still go shoot them. You can still defend yourself, etc. There's just a slight inconvenience on a high number of bullets. Oh noes.

Why do you care about a 4% limit on alcohol? You can still keep your damn drinks. You can still party. You can still get drunk, ect. There's a slight inconvenience on how much you have to drink. Oh noes.

Thanks for not replying to my other post though.
 
Do you know how many stories that exist of insane people who invade homes and have the audacity to stab CHILDREN? These people give absolutely no fucks.

I understand. But I would have absolutely preferred it if Loughner or Lanza had a knife though.

7 rounds? I'm not happy with that. I'll be okay with 10

Okay. I definitely think that's something that could be openly discussed and compromised. I was just wondering if gun-owners, in general, feel that lower-round magazines diminish ones capacity to go on a killing spree. Alphanoid doesn't seem to think so, but I would disagree. As was said before, reloading in a high-stress situation is fairly difficult.

And, really, at this point in our nations history, I really couldn't give a fuck about somebody feeling inconvenienced at the range.
 
But in this very thread people are talking about how having to reload makes apparently no difference.

So what is it?

Two different scenarios.

A person on a shooting spree, especially in a 'gun free zone,' is on the offensive, most likely unopposed, and can take the 2 seconds to reload when necessary. If you watch the available surveillance videos from some mass shootings such as Columbine, you'll see the shooter(s) just casually walking around at times looking for their next victim. They're prepared, they've thought it out, the extra ammo is readily at-hand. So, while there may be an instance when someone might attempt to 'jump' a shooter during a reload, most of the time the 10 (or 7 now in NY) mag limit isn't going to stop them or slow them down (not that they'd be following the law anyway).

On the other hand, a person who has resorted to a firearm for self-defense is (obviously) on the defensive, shittin' bricks, often disoriented from just being woken up, etc. They probably didn't have time to grab an extra magazine, and they're probably pulling the trigger for dear life. The fewer interruptions in their attempt to defend themselves, the more likely they'll survive.

A gun is a tool. All the things that make it a better tool in the hands of person whose use is justified make it worse when in the hands of a criminal. That's the Catch 22. Problem is, when a law gets passed to try to limit the potential for damage, the criminals don't comply. They're stubborn like that.


.
 
Why do you care about a 4% limit on alcohol? You can still keep your damn drinks. You can still party. You can still get drunk, ect. There's a slight inconvenience on how much you have to drink. Oh noes.

Thanks for not replying to my other post though.

Thanks for replying to my post. Why exactly do you think a 10 round limit equates to 4% limit on alcohol by volume? I would think that 4% limit on everything is a bit much, since a lot of drinks are for mixing, and thus you'd need a higher limit on that. If you want a limit on beers and wine coolers and things like that at 4%, then I might think that's a bit low, but I wouldn't have a problem with having a limit in general. We can quibble on the exact number.

So my question is, do you think 10 rounds is too low, or are you opposed to it altogether?
 
While I agree that the above is a rather stupid formulation of this specific limit, tThe problem with this argument is that infinite escalation is the only end point when taken to its logical conclusion. You're arguing that because he's got a 10 round magazine that you should get a 10 round magazine too? What if he gets a 30 round magazine? What about a rocket launcher, ICBM's, a gatling gun, a nuclear warhead? What about aggressive biological agents? What about a tank? Should every man woman and child be fully equipped to handle whatever weapon might possibly fall into the hands of criminals? Eventually there's so much destructive force at play that the potential risks of misuse necessitate a line to be drawn somewhere. What most people argue is that in the case of self-defense there comes a point where the amount of firepower becomes superfluous to reasonably stopping an attacker without allowing a significant increase in the probability of such attacks happening more easily within legal bounds. Illegal shit happens, and mostly unexpectedly, which is why I think that 2nd amendment rights are important in that situation. But there have to be limits somewhere, and most would argue that those limits aren't harsh enough yet given recent events.

I have not made an argument for continued escalation. I have made an argument against one sided de-escalation and arbitrary legislation being placed and enforced on those that do not commit crimes or endanger others.

I am not worried about someone breaking into my house or accosting me on the street with a rocket launcher. I am worried about being in another situation where I am defenseless and in present mortal danger, and on this third occasion end up less lucky than I was in the first two.

It must be a terrible life to live so afraid of something that's so statistically small.


Please return to this thread after you have had the experience of being trapped in an inescapable place lying face-down on the concrete floor and thinking through the expected last moments of your short life, and deciding that you will never be in such a defenseless situation again.
 
I have a question:

Everyone is freaking out over the clip thing. Saying it won't do any good anyway because people can reload like it's nothing and everyone can do it in seconds.

And then going on to say that it's a complete and total inconvenience for law abiding gun owners, and it will make their lives harder.

So....I don't get it.
 
Diehard pls

Utah just beat the heat don't go out like last time

yeah i should stop.. this is really pointless anyway.
Thanks for replying to my post. Why exactly do you think a 10 round limit equates to 4% limit on alcohol by volume? I would think that 4% limit on everything is a bit much, since a lot of drinks are for mixing, and thus you'd need a higher limit on that. If you want a limit on beers and wine coolers and things like that at 4%, then I might think that's a bit low, but I wouldn't have a problem with having a limit in general. We can quibble on the exact number.

So my question is, do you think 10 rounds is too low, or are you opposed to it altogether?


Yes, we can quibble on those numbers. So can the individual states , and they can apply the number that they think is appropriate.

Are you seeing my point?
 
Now the police did upgrade to semi-auto pistols because they used to have revolvers and weren't issued speedloaders. That directly led to them being outgunned in shootouts.

However those were shootouts.
 
I'm not sure but I would think he was just doing the simple math on the figures he derived from the 31,672 statistic.

I can't find that "31,672 incidents" figure anywhere. I do see report in 2010 that gets referenced a lot that speaks to 31,672 firearm deaths though.

I have a question:

Everyone is freaking out over the clip thing. Saying it won't do any good anyway because people can reload like it's nothing and everyone can do it in seconds.

And then going on to say that it's a complete and total inconvenience for law abiding gun owners, and it will make their lives harder.

So....I don't get it.
Noticed that too heh?
 
Clearly. I went with the first one I found, on Wikipedia. Sorry for not triple-checking!
I wasn't implying anything about you. I was mostly poking fun of myself. I didn't realize there were conflicting stories either. I always heard it was a gun jam.
Anyway, one other point to make about magazine changes... The guy in Virginia Tech went through 17 magazines and nobody had a chance to tackle him. It can be done within a second or two if you practice. I don't think the magazine round limits will have any consequence on gun violence and it won't pass.
 
I actually addressed that, but of course it gets overlooked. How are those comparable? Can you please explain to me what rights have been violated when someone owns a standard magazine? Versus someone raping/murdering another? I'm having trouble following how those situations are comparable.

Further, you continue to paint broad brushes. Sure there are people that indeed are like the above. Refuse to address any issues, ignore other shit laws, etc. But not everyone is like that. Shockingly, it is possible to be for certain gun legislation and also oppose things like the Patriot act, SOPA, war on drugs, racism, etc. I certainly do not support those things yet I am pro-gun.

Passing more shit legislation just for the sake of it because it can be construed as "going in the right direction" is no good. That's exactly how things like Patriot gets passed. Knee-jerk legislation to placate upset people regardless if the damn thing is even sensible in the first place! As said in other threads by me..... fanservice.

Goldeneye, Its not a broad brush. As its the NRA's stance, which controls the gun laws and gun research in the country. You'll always have trouble with it, as I'll have trouble trying to understand how still having access to lethal weapons(In a world that we add additional weapons to the banned list) Is in any shape or form anywhere near a violation of specific rights as worded in the second amendment.

I say those things to note the precedent to gun owners, that in fact laws aren't all 100% effective, yet are passed, and its the way things are done in this country. Its the reality of the USA. You want to talk bureaucracy, not doing the right thing, great. But thats not the way things work, and its not up to who the laws have an effect on, that decides whether or not its a law or not.

I have a question:

Everyone is freaking out over the clip thing. Saying it won't do any good anyway because people can reload like it's nothing and everyone can do it in seconds.

And then going on to say that it's a complete and total inconvenience for law abiding gun owners, and it will make their lives harder.

So....I don't get it.

Bra-fucking-vo.

They don't want any changes to anything Gun related period. Its as clear as day.
 
I have a question:

Everyone is freaking out over the clip thing. Saying it won't do any good anyway because people can reload like it's nothing and everyone can do it in seconds.

And then going on to say that it's a complete and total inconvenience for law abiding gun owners, and it will make their lives harder.

So....I don't get it.

Different people arguing different things. I personally would not be inconvenienced in the slightest. Any sport shooting I do usually limits shots from single magazines and requires active reloading (IDPA events). I just think it's silly legislation that would be difficult to enforce and would affect law abiding gun owners without saving any lives.
 
A gun is a tool. All the things that make it a better tool in the hands of person whose use is justified make it worse when in the hands of a criminal. That's the Catch 22. Problem is, when a law gets passed to try to limit the potential for damage, the criminals don't comply. They're stubborn like that.

Christ, no they're not. This idea that every criminal will do everything in their power to circumvent any regulation at all is asinine. Yes, some planned crimes will circumvent some regulations and get things on the black market. But a lot of crimes are done in the moment, as crimes of passion. They're done when a human gets to their lowest point, hits a depressive spot or just plain goes off. They grab what's available to them and do what they do.
 
As Hannity put it on his show yesterday, "this woman in her attic needed to fire 5 times; what if she had needed to fire 5 more?"

Perhaps people should have to take a certain amount of training before being allowed to own a gun?
I know someone here at work who just bought his elderly mother a handgun for protection (not sure why, she lives in a very uppity gated condo community and nothing has every happened but he is a huge gun guy).
Has she ever fired a gun? Nope. But he says she will have no issues if needed.
This does not make me feel warm and fuzzy.
If you need more than 5 shots I do not really know what to say.
 
His Ruger .22 had a 50-round magazine, silly person.

Right, and after he fired those 50 shots, he decided to reload, and was tackled. Thus, we can infer that, when shooters have to reload they might, on occasion, be stopped before they can shoot more people. Then, if we think about what might cause a shooter to have to reload, one obvious event would be running out of ammunition in the magazine. Therefore, if one wants to increase the likelihood that a shooter might be at some point be stopped before he ends his spree voluntarily, one might infer that limiting the amount of ammunition in a magazine would accomplish that. Of course, it's certainly no guarantee that in every, or even most, instances it would be effective, but when we're talking about public policy, we consider the possible aggregate effect and try not to fall prey to the nirvana fallacy. Is there something that I'm missing?
 
Christ, no they're not. This idea that every criminal will do everything in their power to circumvent any regulation at all is asinine. Yes, some planned crimes will circumvent some regulations and get things on the black market. But a lot of crimes are done in the moment, as crimes of passion. They're done when a human gets to their lowest point, hits a depressive spot or just plain goes off. They grab what's available to them and do what they do.

If we're talking about mass-shootings, (which is the supposed reason we're in this debate now) this is generally not the case. Many, if not most, seem to be quite well-planned.
 
You know that it's a lot harder to shoot someone than they make it seem like on TV and the movies, right?

You know break ins and all out gun fights happen much less than it seems from TV and the movies, right?


If we're talking about mass-shootings, (which is the supposed reason we're in this debate now) this is generally not the case. Many, if not most, seem to be quite well-planned.

Depends on where you draw the line on a 'mass' shooting. There are quite a few shootings where they get 3, 4, 5, or 6 people and they were just crimes of passion. For example when an estranged husband gets mad at his wife that's leaving him and shoots up her place of work with the gun he already had. This happened in Wisconsin a little while back. Or a gun goes down the street shooting randomly. Or a guy goes into his place of work with a gun. You can't get caught up on a few instances where, yes, they may have circumvented regulations, when quite a lot of gun violence and violence in general happens more in the moment.
 
Could you please elaborate?

Just gonna throw in my two cents and I agree with the comment that there is a ton of intellectually dishonest shit in there. The gun ownership vs crime infographic they show is rather neat as they don't show the data sets for all the country. Only both the united states gun ownership rate and homicide rate is posted (and "intentional" homicide rate at that). Why don't they show the lowest intentional homicide rate and that ownership rate? Why don't they post what the negative correlation value actually is (I'd be surprised if it was higher than 0.8).

"Nations with strict gun control laws have substantially higher murder rates than those who do not in general." What is substantially? Canada has a lower rate than america with stricter gun control laws.

Oh man, this case study on the U.K. Their crime rate peaked in 1995 and has decreased year over year for the subsequent years. The claim about the 77% increase after the banning of handguns is false. It's actually an outright lie. In fact they sharply declined post 1997.

I don't know if I want to waste more time with this nonsense. My bullshit detector went off and I caught a bold faced lie. Do I really want to waste more of my time with this stupid bullshit?
 
Well there is that argument. People are really piss poor shots. Anyone in a mass shooting (because it's a mass shooting) can shoot multiple targets.

I wonder what the hit rate is of mass shooters. I bet they're better shots than the police... cause the police are terrible shots(as a whole).
 
I'm really liking the laser-vision focus by gun owners on mag size and AWB - it seems most of the points in the bill will pass since the house republicans and NRA will most likely be pressured by their constituents to remove AWB and mag size limit over everything else.
 
I have a question:

Everyone is freaking out over the clip thing. Saying it won't do any good anyway because people can reload like it's nothing and everyone can do it in seconds.

And then going on to say that it's a complete and total inconvenience for law abiding gun owners, and it will make their lives harder.

So....I don't get it.
Once you get it, you too can have your cake and eat it too!

But let them keep talking - since there's apparently no tactical downside to reducing clip size, they'll paint themselves into a corner soon enough.
 
I have a question:

Everyone is freaking out over the clip thing. Saying it won't do any good anyway because people can reload like it's nothing and everyone can do it in seconds.

And then going on to say that it's a complete and total inconvenience for law abiding gun owners, and it will make their lives harder.

So....I don't get it.

This has been adequately answered several times, but I'll try again.

This restriction only affects people that follow laws. IN a worst case scenario, where there is present threat to their or their family's lives, they will most likely be at a combat disadvantage having seven rounds in a magazine against an aggressor that has ten. This argument is elementary because it is highly likely that a person presenting a tangible and present threat to someone else's life likely has little enough regard for the legislative process that they have fully loaded their available ten round magazines.
 
What the fuck are you talking about? My entire original point is that applying a national arbitrary limit is stupid. I'm sorry if you couldn't see that.

I'm sorry I can't read your fucking mind. You did not say that. You said applying a limit at all would be ridiculous and basically implied that we don't already do that, and I pointed out that we do. If you want to quibble on minor details on that and die on the hill that these things are fine at the state level, be my fucking guest, but don't sit there and pretend like you made yourself clear with your original post. You didn't. You got called on it. Deal with it.


This restriction only affects people that follow laws. IN a worst case scenario, where there is present threat to their or their family's lives, they will most likely be at a combat disadvantage having seven rounds in a magazine against an aggressor that has ten. This argument is elementary because it is highly likely that a person presenting a tangible and present threat to someone else's life likely has little enough regard for the legislative process that they have fully loaded their available ten round magazines.

[citation needed]
 
My view on the clip thing is that it may be much easier to see a person with four clips hiden on them than it is to see a person with one bigger clip on them.
I may be way off, maybe it is that at least reloading no matter how quickly gives a small window for response.
 
Why don't they let more teachers have guns at schools? Utah is doing it? Since US had a bad year of mentally ill people snapping and killing others. They take it out on the rest of the nation?

Because giving untrained people firearms and asking them to protect crowds of tiny humans is a bad idea. They're teachers, not security specialists.

I have a question:

Everyone is freaking out over the clip thing. Saying it won't do any good anyway because people can reload like it's nothing and everyone can do it in seconds.

And then going on to say that it's a complete and total inconvenience for law abiding gun owners, and it will make their lives harder.

So....I don't get it.
I see where you're coming from here. To clarify, the inconcenience for me is mostly on the procurement side than it is on the usage side. If it's anything like the original AWB, I'm still going to be able to get one if I want one. I'm just going to pay more for it and look around a little longer. There's no one going back and redesigning guns to only be able to fit the 10 round magazines (unless you're Ruger under Bill Ruger or you're HK trying to get a new gun into the country).

I do stand by my statement that it is a step in the correct direction if they're concerned about function over about strict appearance. I'm honestly not sure what you could do, however, as long as you have detachable magazines. Now, if all magazines are internal or cylindrical, or all guns have to be single-shot, by law, then I'd say, yeah... you've slowed people the fuck down unless you have a superstar with a Lee Enfield.
 
I'm fine with universal background checks, though the whole "mental health issues = no gun ownership for you" thing is a bit scary. Couple that with the "there is no doctor-patient privilege in cases of threats of violence" and it's not hard to see that getting abused in a lot of cases.

Seems to me that anyone who covets ownership of assault rifles, military grade weapons or armour piercing bullets must also have some mental health issues of some sort to deal with.
 
I'm really liking the laser-vision focus by gun owners on mag size and AWB - it seems most of the points in the bill will pass since the house republicans and NRA will most likely be pressured by their constituents to remove AWB and mag size limit over everything else.

And I'm all for those other provisions. Those other provisions seem awesome.
 
Right, and after he fired those 50 shots, he decided to reload, and was tackled. Thus, we can infer that, when shooters have to reload they might, on occasion be stopped before they can shoot more people. Then, if we think about what might cause a shooter to have to reload, one obvious event would be running out of ammunition in the magazine. Therefore, if one wants to increase the likelihood that a shooter might be at some point stopped before he ends his spree voluntarily, one might infer that limiting the amount of ammunition in a magazine would accomplish that. Of course, it's certainly no guarantee that in every, or even most, instances it would be effective, but when we're talking about public policy, we consider the possible aggregate effect and try not to fall prey to the nirvana fallacy. Is there something that I'm missing?

He was particularly bad at being a mass-shooter. He used a .22, which is not known as a particularly effective round for killing humans, in this case, he shot 37 hits, yet only killed two people. He had much more-powerful 9mm Glock 19 pistol with him, but never pulled it out until he was tackled. His case is far from the typical mass-shooter story.

The things you are missing in using this case as a case study to dispute my points are that he was not doing the behavior I described, which you were trying to dispute; he was not a typical mass-shooter in terms of preperation, weapon selection, or preparedness; and again...the type of .22 weapon he used may very well not even be included in this proposed legislation, as it's not considered to be an effective "man killer" of a firearm. Even Clinton's ban didn't include high-capacity .22s with tubular feeds, and some of those can go as high as 20+ rounds, and can be reloaded much faster than an empty regular spring magazine. (You use a preloaded straw-like tube, and just dump them in using gravity.)

EDIT: .22 tubular feeds aren't banned in California either.
 
I'm sorry I can't read your fucking mind. You did not say that. You said applying a limit at all would be ridiculous and basically implied that we don't already do that, and I pointed out that we do. If you want to quibble on minor details on that and die on the hill that these things are fine at the state level, be my fucking guest, but don't sit there and pretend like you made yourself clear with your original post. You didn't. You got called on it. Deal with it.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46519522&postcount=371

See where i said "National" , right there in the first paragraph?
 
This restriction only affects people that follow laws. IN a worst case scenario, where there is present threat to their or their family's lives, they will most likely be at a combat disadvantage having seven rounds in a magazine against an aggressor that has ten. This argument is elementary because it is highly likely that a person presenting a tangible and present threat to someone else's life likely has little enough regard for the legislative process that they have fully loaded their available ten round magazines.

But wouldn't that mean that 10-round (or whatever) magazines would be illegal then - and therefore increasingly harder to come by? It seems all of these recent mass-shootings were with legally obtained guns, correct? So wouldn't these guns have had lower capacity if this law were in place?
 
Can someone clear this up for me? Reading the OP it says private sales of guns are exempt from background checks. Doesn't this mean that people can still buy from gunshows the same as before if this thing passes?
 
Why don't they let more teachers have guns at schools? Utah is doing it? Since US had a bad year of mentally ill people snapping and killing others. They take it out on the rest of the nation?

Because gun fights are a bad idea.
Also because what happens if a kid steals the gun somehow?
Or if the worst happens and a person with a gun comes in and shoots the teacher , look now they have two guns.
 
Because gun fights are a bad idea.
Also because what happens if a kid steals the gun somehow?
Or if the worst happens and a person with a gun comes in and shoots the teacher , look now they have two guns.

do they also wear a special shirt that says, "SWAT team, please don't shoot me even though i have a gun and am shooting at someone, thank you for reading this shirt"
 
Goldeneye, Its not a broad brush. As its the NRA's stance, which controls the gun laws and gun research in the country. You'll always have trouble with it, as I'll have trouble trying to understand how still having access to lethal weapons(In a world that we add additional weapons to the banned list) Is in any shape or form anywhere near a violation of specific rights as worded in the second amendment.

I say those things to note the precedent to gun owners, that in fact laws aren't all 100% effective, yet are passed, and its the way things are done in this country. Its the reality of the USA. You want to talk bureaucracy, not doing the right thing, great. But thats not the way things work, and its not up to who the laws have an effect on, that decides whether or not its a law or not.



Bra-fucking-vo.

They don't want any changes to anything Gun related period. Its as clear as day.

I am not a member of the NRA. They do not represent me. What is their membership versus the actual amount of gun owners? Sure they have the largest influence at this time - but that probably speaks to Washington's overall affinity to being corrupt and letting lobbyists run the show in general.

The issue isn't that they're ineffective, it is that they are misguided. That's my issue. Yes, let's make an AWB ban when they account for a minute percentage of actual crimes! Let's not focus on the core issues that may be causing people to act out in the first place! Sure you won't curb all crime no matter what you do, but at least make legislation that addresses core issues and not things because they look scary to some and are great for fanservice in wake of tragedy.

There certainly should be changes. But I guess I'm a gun-toting nut simply because I don't agree with the method.
 
Two different scenarios.

A person on a shooting spree, especially in a 'gun free zone,' is on the offensive, most likely unopposed, and can take the 2 seconds to reload when necessary. If you watch the available surveillance videos from some mass shootings such as Columbine, you'll see the shooter(s) just casually walking around at times looking for their next victim. They're prepared, they've thought it out, the extra ammo is readily at-hand. So, while there may be an instance when someone might attempt to 'jump' a shooter during a reload, most of the time the 10 (or 7 now in NY) mag limit isn't going to stop them or slow them down (not that they'd be following the law anyway).

On the other hand, a person who has resorted to a firearm for self-defense is (obviously) on the defensive, shittin' bricks, often disoriented from just being woken up, etc. They probably didn't have time to grab an extra magazine, and they're probably pulling the trigger for dear life. The fewer interruptions in their attempt to defend themselves, the more likely they'll survive.

A gun is a tool. All the things that make it a better tool in the hands of person whose use is justified make it worse when in the hands of a criminal. That's the Catch 22. Problem is, when a law gets passed to try to limit the potential for damage, the criminals don't comply. They're stubborn like that.


.
Ok, those scenarios make sense. Though not all killing sprees are as meticulously planned as the columbine one. So I could still see it having an effect on rather "spontaneous" outbreaks.

Also, do I hear the argument, that criminals would get those type of weapons anyway, quite often. Yet, will you rarely find any criminals using full automatic weapons, since those are buried under lots of restrictions. Doesn't that prove that laws can actually keep criminals from getting certain weapons?
 
This restriction only affects people that follow laws. IN a worst case scenario, where there is present threat to their or their family's lives, they will most likely be at a combat disadvantage having seven rounds in a magazine against an aggressor that has ten. This argument is elementary because it is highly likely that a person presenting a tangible and present threat to someone else's life likely has little enough regard for the legislative process that they have fully loaded their available ten round magazines.
*squints* Not sure if serious.
 
He was particularly bad at being a mass-shooter. He used a .22, which is not known as a particularly effective round for killing humans, in this case, he shot 37 hits, yet only killed two people. He had much more-powerful 9mm Glock 19 pistol with him, but never pulled it out until he was tackled. His case is far from the typical mass-shooter story.

The things you are missing in using this case as a case study to dispute my points are that he was not doing the behavior I described, which you were trying to dispute; he was not a typical mass-shooter in terms of preperation, weapon selection, or preparedness; and again...the type of .22 weapon he used may very well not even be included in this proposed legislation, as it's not considered to be an effective "man killer" of a firearm.

This is not a "case study." I don't know what a "typical mass shooter" means as I haven't done an analysis of all "mass shootings" over the past 50 years. I doubt you have either.

The gun Kinkel had is not the point. I pointed out the Kinkel example to establish one proposition and only one proposition: that when a shooter has to reload that provides an opportunity, however small, for people to interrupt the spree that would not otherwise be presented. Is that correct or incorrect in your view?
 
But wouldn't that mean that 10-round (or whatever) magazines would be illegal then - and therefore increasingly harder to come by? It seems all of these recent mass-shootings were with legally obtained guns, correct? So wouldn't these guns have had lower capacity if this law were in place?


If that was the case, it would be sensible. If they were doing anything to reduce 10 round capacity magazines then a seven round limit might be an arguable point. There are already thousands of these magazines in circulation, both for legal owners and illegal owners. This law only stipulates that a ten round magazine is still legal, but you are not permitted to put more than seven cartridges in the magazine.

RDreamer - the citation for this post, as in my previous post, is in the little box to the left. Darias (myself) is who I am citing for the content in my post.
 
Can someone clear this up for me? Reading the OP it says private sales of guns are exempt from background checks. Doesn't this mean that people can still buy from gunshows the same as before if this thing passes?

Let me clarify the gunshow "loophole." Private sales of guns, essentially the used market outside of FFL dealers, operate like any other individual to individual used sale. The government doesn't know anything about it, just like if I sold my lawn mower to my neighbor. There is no carve out for gunshows. There are both private and FFL dealer sales at gunshows. The FFL dealer sales at gunshows will have a background check, the private sales do not.

Manufacturers and the distributors they work through are only allowed to sell to FFL dealers, and FFL dealers are required to do the check. So in essence all new gun sales go through a background check.

Now, calling it a "gunshow loophole" is really a PR term created by the pro-gun restriction lobby to convince the uninformed that there is a huge gaping hole that criminals can get guns through if they go to a gun show. It has nothing to do with the gun show, a criminal can get a gun if they can convince any private individual to sell to them the gun they own (or more likely they just steal it.)

Requiring private sales to do a background check to me is a legitimate proposal, and one that should be debated because there are cons to it as well. For example, people that are willing to sell to criminals would still be willing to sell to criminals. Stigmatizing gunshows is just PR.
 
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