Support NeoGAF

[wesleyshark]

This is not to be confused with the air strike that killed at least 73 people the other day.

The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, a major source of information on the plight of noncombatants caught in Syria’s devastating civil war, said it put the death toll in the latest lethal Manbij incident at 28 civilians, including, once again, women and children.

“They were killed when the warplanes of the international coalition committed a massacre in the town of al-Ghandour in the northwestern countryside of Manbij city east of Aleppo province, where the warplanes targeted areas in the town of al-Ghandour, which is more than 23 kilometers away from Manbij city, and the death toll is expected to rise because there are some people in critical situation,” the Observatory said on its English-language website on Thursday.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jul/28/us-airstrike-more-civilian-casualties-manbij-syria

U.S. Central Command initiated an assessment following internal operational reporting that a strike today near Manbij, Syria may have resulted in civilian casualties. We can confirm the Coalition conducted airstrikes in the area in the last 24 hours.

http://www.centcom.mil/news/press-r...tatement-on-civilian-casualty-allegations-nea

Shoot down my drone if old.

 

[m_shortpants]

No accountability.

This is sad. And it won't make a blip on any kind of media outlet.

 

[wesleyshark]

Seems like they've either been operating on a string of bad intel, or they are just getting sloppy. Maybe both.

 

[Mesousa]

Seems like they've either been operating on a string of bad intel, or they are just getting sloppy. Maybe both.

There is only so much you can do, effectively, when you don't have boots on the ground.

The intelligence in this case is always worse than traditional action.

 

[wesleyshark]

There is only so much you can do, effectively, when you don't have boots on the ground.

The intelligence in this case is always worse than traditional action.

That's a good point.

 

[Orbis Tabula]

Fuck.

 

[Corronchilejano]

It's hard to say, but sometimes I believe that people from third world countries just aren't viewed as people by Americans at large.

 

[ClosingADoor]

There is only so much you can do, effectively, when you don't have boots on the ground.

The intelligence in this case is always worse than traditional action.

Boots on the ground won't prevent this. You don't march into a battlefield without air support.

Every civilian death is one too many, but I can't think if a way to get ISIS out that will not result in any innocent death. Better intel and precision should be a priority, but these things will always happen. Not that that is an excuse, but it will happen again and again while the war drags on.

US military officials have said they expect the battle for Manbij to drag on, as Isis has dug into a position both sides consider a critical buffer between US-backed forces and the Isis capital of Raqqa. Manbij has strategic value for another reason: it provides a pathway for Isis to exfiltrate fighters through Turkey to the outside world.

Seems like the city is very much a critical one to capture. As long as ISIS doesn't retreat and keeps hiding between civilians, these deaths are on them also.

 

[Lambtron]

It's hard to say, but sometimes I believe that people from third world countries just aren't viewed as people by Americans at large.

They aren't. It's fucked up.

 

[GTP_Daverytimes]

Seems like they've either been operating on a string of bad intel, or they are just getting sloppy. Maybe both.

Just a thought, if this was another country that did this the past few times, would there be this amount of level headed look on the issue? Your comment is exactly the same thing i think but i was wondering if people would look at it that way if another country did it, in particular Russia (since they have been operating in the same environment). We've gotten very good at demonizing others while rationalizing ourselves for the same exact actions, no one (or rather very few) will be accusing US of purposefully targeting civilians (which btw could indeed be the case). Anyways we are yet again in a situation were civilians are being murdered and then when the ranks of these Islamist grow everybody acts shocked, hey, maybe one day bombs will indeed solve it.

 

[Mesousa]

Boots on the ground won't prevent this. You don't march into a battlefield without air support.

Every civilian death is one too many, but I can't think if a way to get ISIS out that will not result in any innocent death. Better intel and precision should be a priority, but these things will always happen. Not that that is an excuse, but it will happen again and again while the war drags on.



Seems like the city is very much a critical one to capture. As long as ISIS doesn't retreat and keeps hiding between civilians, these deaths are on them also.

Better intel would come if we have large groups on the ground sending continuous information via a pipeline process that occurs in traditional war though. A few guys and their(Rebels) word for it obviously isn't enough, and shouldn't be enough when there are lives on the line. The civilians killed here don't get a second opportunity for us to "make it right"

 

[Crisco]

Do you people realize that the remaining ISIS defenders are basically surrounding themselves with civilian human shields, and executing any who try to escape? It's easy to blame the US, who is doing more than any western nation to fight these people. Prepare for a lot more of this when the operation to liberate Mosul begins, it's practically unavoidable.

 

[spekkeh]

Just a thought, if this was another country that did this the past few times, would there be this amount of level headed look on the issue?

No there would be no outlook on it. Russia has been cluster bombing markets recently and subsequently lie about using them
(https://www.hrw.org/news/2016/07/28/russia/syria-widespread-new-cluster-munition-use) (note this is an actual credible source). Their death toll seems to exceed the US-led coalition: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-in-syria-killed-2000-civilians-in-six-months
But bleh, no one cares anymore.

 

[wesleyshark]

Do you people realize that the remaining ISIS defenders are basically surrounding themselves with civilian human shields, and executing any who try to escape? It's easy to blame the US, who is doing more than any western nation to fight these people. Prepare for a lot more of this when the operation to liberate Mosul begins, it's practically unavoidable.

I do, yes. And while it sucks to see, the context provides the larger, more horrible reality of what has yet to come. To eradicate ISIS, there's no way that these types of unfortunate splays of collateral damage won't happen.

ISIS will use whatever and whomever they can as shields.

It's just all shit. War is hell.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Better intel would come if we have large groups on the ground sending continuous information via a pipeline process that occurs in traditional war though. A few guys and their(Rebels) word for it obviously isn't enough, and shouldn't be enough when there are lives on the line. The civilians killed here don't get a second opportunity for us to "make it right"

There are US special forces on the ground with those rebel groups. I'm hoping those are the ones sending most intel these strikes are based off instead of just relying on outside forces basically. But we won't know that.

I don't think just sending in a traditional army will suddenly stop civilian death. Maybe it will even increase it, since you are going to take less chances to miss a possible ISIS stronghold when it's your own guys walking in later.

This is very sad. And pointless because it does not end the war on terror, it just adds more fuel.
RIP to the victims.

The alternative at the moment is letting ISIS keep the area or have the Russians bomb it. There is no good alternative at the moment. At least none I can think of that will limit civilian death and suffering.

 

[m_dorian]

This is very sad. And pointless because it does not end the war on terror, it just adds more fuel.
RIP to the victims.

 

[Nathan_Drake]

Very sad but always has been and always will be a reality during military operations.

With Turkey's military now in disarray I can only see this increasing. The US and NATO depends on them to help with ISIS, control the border, and provide intel.

 

[Kenshin001]

I was just watching a BBC report and apparently people in Manbij were saying they were better off under IS. I know the SDF are pushing hard and just rescued a thousand people but if civilians are getting killed and the people prefer IS maybe they should just let IS have it.

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

There is only so much you can do, effectively, when you don't have boots on the ground.

The intelligence in this case is always worse than traditional action.

More boots on the ground would multiply civilian casualties tenfold. These airstrikes are in support of local forces fighting entrenched ISIS positions. They save lives overall.


Such is the price of war.

 

[Usobuko]

It's hard to say, but sometimes I believe that people from third world countries just aren't viewed as people by Americans at large.

Yeah, life forms amounting to animals at best.

 

[wesleyshark]

I was just watching a BBC report and apparently people in Manbij were saying they were better off under IS. I know the SDF are pushing hard and just rescued a thousand people but if civilians are getting killed and the people prefer IS maybe they should just let IS have it.

Allowing ISIS anything is never going to happen.

 

[sangreal]

Isn't the "Syrian Observatory for Human Rights" one guy in the UK?

 

[Abounder]

It's a shame Jimmy Carter got such a raw deal, these air strikes are little more than crimes against humanity

Isn't the "Syrian Observatory for Human Rights" one guy in the UK?

That one guy seems to be on point considering the US Central Command's assessment.

 

[ClosingADoor]

It's a shame Jimmy Carter got such a raw deal, these air strikes are little more than crimes against humanity

The alternative at the moment is having ISIS have it, an organisation that executes any civilian they want. Or have it bombed by worse countries. How exactly do you propose to replace air strikes in this war (or any modern war for that matter)?

 

[KillGore]

It's hard to say, but sometimes I believe that people from third world countries just aren't viewed as people by Americans at large.

I think that applies in general to all first world countries, not just america.

Edit: That includes most, if not all latin american countries too.European countries too. Most people won't even care. Compare that to the Paris attacks.

 

[Abounder]

The alternative at the moment is having ISIS have it, an organisation that executes any civilian they want. Or have it bombed by worse countries. How exactly do you propose to replace air strikes in this war (or any modern war for that matter)?

Take in refugees and provide logistical support to proxies, but honestly not a fan of the latter as well (JFK vs Cuba). No one's going to stop Russia/Co., let them fight for the next Saudi Arabia

 

[linsivvi]

WTF? Again?

It's hard to say, but sometimes I believe that people from third world countries just aren't viewed as people by Americans at large.

This is why:

I don't get how something like drone strikes or the CIA are priorities when thinking about presidential campaigns. To me they are third or fourth tier issues just because they do not effect me on a daily basis or nearly at all. The moral problems they bring up can be all tangled up and get seriously messy, yet there are other considerably more pressing issues that I think about before I can even be in a place comfortable enough to think about issues you have brought up.

Here here. If Hilary improves things at home I could honestly not care less if she's a warhawk abroad.

Like it or not a democratically elected government is a reflection of its people.

 

[Kinyou]

So what kind of consequences can be expected from this? I get that the overall war against Isis is nessecary, but it's the lack of accountability that always feels so messed up.

 

[WeAreStarStuff]

I look forward to this being plastered across the media here in the US so that everyone is aware.

 

[Avtomat]

No accountability.

This is sad. And it won't make a blip on any kind of media outlet.

Considering its the guardian reporting it .......

 

[JeTmAn81]

Do we make any kind of restitution to the families of the dead?

 

[NEO0MJ]

Terrible news, but that's war or something.

 

[Silent Chief]

I was just watching a BBC report and apparently people in Manbij were saying they were better off under IS. I know the SDF are pushing hard and just rescued a thousand people but if civilians are getting killed and the people prefer IS maybe they should just let IS have it.

Does better off under ISIS include the anti-ISIS bombings? If not they need to revisit the equation. Otherwise it's like the 1941 Germans who thought they were better off under Hitler.

 

[victreeb3l]

Sad and fucked up.

 

[TheRealTalker]

I was just watching a BBC report and apparently people in Manbij were saying they were better off under IS. I know the SDF are pushing hard and just rescued a thousand people but if civilians are getting killed and the people prefer IS maybe they should just let IS have it.

you know these civilians would be killed, tortured and raped under SDF aka foreign militias

it is like picking different poisons

 

[Brinbe]

Incredibly saddening. No doubt ISIL will use this to advance their gains. There should accountability and consequences to these actions. It is not acceptable.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Take in refugees and provide logistical support to proxies, but honestly not a fan of the latter as well (JFK vs Cuba). No one's going to stop Russia/Co., let them fight for the next Saudi Arabia

So let others do the dirty work and look the other way? I don't see that as any better solution. Certainly not since we - Western nations - are already involved now.

Taking in refugees until the country is empty is also not that good of a solution.

 

[RumblingRosco]

Do we make any kind of restitution to the families of the dead?

I don't know for sure, but I doubt it.

 

[Abounder]

So let others do the dirty work and look the other way? I don't see that as any better solution. Certainly not since we - Western nations - are already involved now.

Taking in refugees until the country is empty is also not that good of a solution.

Let them fight for the next Saudi Arabia, meanwhile take in refugees. Killing civilians in the name of war isn't much of a 'solution' either, and is a strange word choice considering the fascist history. All the Western nations are doing is creating more instability.

 

[mnannola]

Can we get a #ForeignLivesMatter hashtag going? There has to be more accountability for just straight up bombing innocent civilians.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Let them fight for the next Saudi Arabia, meanwhile take in refugees. Killing civilians in the name of war isn't much of a 'solution' either, and is a strange word choice considering the fascist history. All the Western nations are doing is creating more instability.

You do know that those civilians are pretty much stuck there right? It's not us who are keeping them there, it is ISIS.

Your solution is to replace the Western coalition with either nothing or Assad/Russia. Let's not pretend we then have no blood on our hands if we pull back now and leave the area to them and ISIS.

 

[Abounder]

You do know that those civilians are pretty much stuck there right? It's not us who are keeping them there, it is ISIS.

Your solution is to replace the Western coalition with either nothing or Assad/Russia. Let's not pretend we then have no blood on our hands if we pull back now and leave the area to them and ISIS.

Let them make the next Saudi Arabia. Otherwise we'll just be bombing more civilians, and no one is going to stop Russia anyway.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Let them make the next Saudi Arabia. Otherwise we'll just be bombing more civilians, and no one is going to stop Russia anyway.

I don't know what the next Saudi Arabia is supposed to mean.

And while the coalition now is bombing civilians in error, which is terrible, you are happy to replace that by a party that bombs civilians in much worse numbers and takes little precautions to limit civilian casualties.

You are calling these current bombings a crime against humanity, but would gladly look the other way as long as others are the ones committing them?

 

[twobear]

i hope hilary benn is happy with himself

 

[Abounder]

I don't know what the next Saudi Arabia is supposed to mean.

And while the coalition now is bombing civilians in error, which is terrible, you are happy to replace that by a party that bombs civilians in much worse numbers and takes little precautions to limit civilian casualties.

You are calling these current bombings a crime against humanity, but would gladly look the other way as long as others are the ones committing them?

Saudi Arabia is ISIS that made it, and our allies.

Yes, setting the standard of not committing crimes against humanity is the high road to take for USA/Co. Bombing civilians is not a necessary evil, and there's no accountability

 

[ahoyhoy]

So what kind of consequences can be expected from this? I get that the overall war against Isis is nessecary, but it's the lack of accountability that always feels so messed up.

I have a feeling that if someone was fired everytime something like this happened eventually someone will be put in place that is incredibly risk-adverse and end up basically stopping our bombing campaign.

This may be a good or bad thing depending on your point of view and what's the best way to stop ISIS.

Of course there should be an investigation into this particular incident, but likely they'll determine that the Intel they got wasn't 100= accurate and accept the loses here as within the acceptable boundaries considering the ultimate objective.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Saudi Arabia is ISIS that made it, and our allies.

Yes, setting the standard of not committing crimes against humanity is the high road to take for USA/Co. Bombing civilians is not a necessary evil, and there's no accountability

Looking away while others commit atrocities is not the high road to take.

 

[Abounder]

Looking away while others commit atrocities is not the high road to take.

Then penalize them with sanctions and take in refugees. Killing civilians is never the answer.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Then penalize them with sanctions and take in refugees. Killing civilians is never the answer.

Or try to do as good a job as possible and limit civilian casualties as much as we can.

And again, taking in refugees is not the answer here. Those people there can't even leave probably.

 

[Alo0oy]

This is why:





Like it or not a democratically elected government is a reflection of its people.

Wow, those posts are disgusting, please tell me they're satire?