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[Orayn]

Thanks for the rundown! I really appreciate it. I was just looking over the TF2 website and found my way to the Steam Workshop! Awesome that you can make stuff for people to use in TF2! Is it totally free or do people make money off of their contributions?

If Valve really likes your item, it'll go in the Mann-Co store and you get a cut of the profits from all sales of that item. I don't recall the exact figure at the moment, but the makers of the first round of non-Valve items made tens of thousands of dollars.

Also, if you make a map that gets added through an official update, people can buy "stamps" in the store that also give money to the map maker(s), and can be attached to a special hat that will show particle effects when you're playing on a map you've supported.

 

[tkscz]

Ok, if you didn't get a giggle out of the pure truth in this.

OT, Honestly it's the best F2P with micro-transactions game out there. Let's compare it to Sega's Spiral Knights (which isn't a bad game either).

Spiral Knights has an energy gauge, it decreases each time you go into a level. When it hits zero (which is after playing about 5 short levels), you can no longer play a level. Now, the energy recharges, but that can take up to a day. Or, you can pay for the energy to refill. This is the bad way to do it. That energy is necessary to play the damn game, not to mention the best weapons, you have to pay real money for. This is how you not do a F2P game, as it isn't all that free to play.

TF2 on the other hand, you only have to pay if you want hats, weapons, or other optional items early. Otherwise you can get the items for free at random, or just craft them. Making the game TRULY F2P.

 

[CarbonatedFalcon]

I was just using extra characters as an example of possible "bonus" content that could be included if you paid for a retail package.

Hats would be fine too

 

[Easy_D]

Obviously it will be but F2P isn't neccesarily all that profitabe in comparison to retail though it can be. 12 times more revenue in comparison to what they were selling before isn't really all that much. As has been said before any person that wanted to buy the game would have bought it inside those 4 years, so basically it's 12 times vertically no revenue.

A better comparison for the revenues of the two models would be comparing the revenue for the first years of each model.

I thought they meant revenue of the store? Unless the store opened up at the same time it went F2P, can't really remember

 

[Arpeggio23]

That's nice. How many total maps does TF2 have now?

 

[UnluckyKate]

That's nice. How many total maps does TF2 have now?

6 at launch.

35 officials now, with 7 game modes.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

Thanks for the rundown! I really appreciate it. I was just looking over the TF2 website and found my way to the Steam Workshop! Awesome that you can make stuff for people to use in TF2! Is it totally free or do people make money off of their contributions?

Valve pays them percentage of what they sell it for. Maps are free but people can donate to the map makers (and they donate generously).

 

[Arpeggio23]

6 at launch.

35 officials now, with 7 game modes.

35 official maps? Seriously? The last time I played (probably 2 years ago), everyone was still playing the same maps from release.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

35 official maps? Seriously? The last time I played (probably 2 years ago), everyone was still playing the same maps from release.

Join GAF's TF2 group. We are awesome and play every day, and the server always gets full. We play all kinds of maps (with user votes of course). JOIN US!

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Valve pays them percentage of what they sell it for. Maps are free but people can donate to the map makers (and they donate generously).

Item makers get 25% of the money their item makes (and this is usually a lot actually, some making 5,000+ a month from popular items)
Valve buys the map for 3000-6000 dollars, depending on how many assets in the map were custom made.
There are 50 official maps

Here's another article with some more stats from GDC

 

[Zombie James]

It seems like a lot of western publishers are scared shitless of the free-to-play model (or at least very reluctant to try it), so I'm really glad Valve took a chance and found success with it.

 

[sega4ever]

please use that money and fix the crashing.

 

[Big Chungus]

please use that money and fix the crashing.

what crashing?

 

[Dylan]

TF2 still my favourite game.

I'm really sad at the performance hit the game has taken over the last 8 months or so. A lot of my favourite servers are suffering serious lag/stuttering much too often.


Also, I really wish the inventory limit would just disappear. Nothing worse than trying frantically to delete or discard some new pick-up when I have 8 seconds until respawn. Just let me play!

 

[Dreams-Visions]

GO VALVE GO!!!!!!!

 

[Blackface]

It's also the absolute best F2P game on the market. That probably does not hurt.

League of Legends is as good, and significantly more popular.

 

[Archie]

League of Legends is as good, and significantly more popular.

LoL's model is trash compared to TF2. Releasing 6300 IP heroes every other week and only earning ~100 IP a game means you have to either grind alot or spend lots of money to keep up to date.

 

[RumblingRosco]

what crashing?

I wouldn't ever quite if I didn't get a .exe error to boot me off every night! It's like a built in control module to help those of us that fail at self-regulation.

 

[Hazaro]

League of Legends is as good, and significantly more popular.

But is it fun?

Spoiler

No

 

[Ikuu]

League of Legends is as good, and significantly more popular.

LoL model is based around making as much money as possible, and has major implications on the game.

 

[Yeef]

The weird thing is even though they are making way more money now on TF2 they seem to be much slower at releasing major updates then they were in the first few years of the game, and less and less of the content in the major updates are made by Valve. From what I understand Valve doesn't tell employees what games to work on, they can work on whatever they want. Maybe most Valve employees are tired of working on TF2?

if I recall correctly there's only like 5~10 people that are actually on the TF2 team. That's part of the reason they rely on community content so much.

As to the topic, how much revenue was TF2 really pulling in pre f2play LOL? The revenue could have went from $100 to $1200 for all we know.

We know that because, for example, last month they put out a virtual engagement ring that sold for $100 a pop and notified everyone playing the game when one was bought. They were selling like one every half hour or so the night it was released. Even now, they're still selling a bunch.

What's worse about these is that with the exception of 4 weapons, everything else that is token only isn't even sold in the store.

So there's no real monetization to hiding the Spy's Hidden Blade or Scout's sword behind this weird luck barrier.

Well, there's no direct monetization, but having players use up resources removes them from the economy. It slows the rate (ever so slightly) of resource production. Fewer resources means more sales.

 

[rezuth]

TF2 still my favourite game.

I'm really sad at the performance hit the game has taken over the last 8 months or so. A lot of my favourite servers are suffering serious lag/stuttering much too often.


Also, I really wish the inventory limit would just disappear. Nothing worse than trying frantically to delete or discard some new pick-up when I have 8 seconds until respawn. Just let me play!

Just buy a backpack expander?

 

[NervousXtian]

Well, they were basically giving TF2 away for quite sometime before going to F2P.. so it only makes sense they make more now that it's F2P.

They couldn't be making all that much off people buying it for pocket change.

 

[MutFox]

LoL model is based around making as much money as possible, and has major implications on the game.

What major implications?

 

[Stahsky]

What major implications?

The addition of new heroes so often keeps the game unbalanced, and locking heroes unless you play a lot or pay a lot.

Also the rune system is trash

 

[Deadstar]

I love the way the TF2 system works. I like the fact that I can find all items for free if I play long enough. I've purchased a few items from the store. I wouldn't buy anything if I knew I couldn't get things for free while playing. The ability to find the items in game makes me more willing to pay because I feel like I'm getting a better value. If I had to pay for every weapon and hat I would not put a cent into the store because it's too overwhelming.

Other developers need to take note of this approach to F2P. I think the new Tribes game is doing something similar to this. You can purchase new classes or you can get them for free if you play long enough and earn the credits to unlock them. The customer who doesn't pay a dime is still good for the game because he's filling up servers and keeping the community alive. Then of course there will be other people who will pay for everything and not want to waste 50 hours to unlock it all. It's an interesting model.

 

[MutFox]

The addition of new heroes so often keeps the game unbalanced, and locking heroes unless you play a lot or pay a lot.

Also the rune system is trash

I'm guessing you're a DOTA2 fan.

I haven't payed a dime myself, have several heroes and most runes.
Don't even play that often, but have had the game for 2 years.
Only things that cost actual money are skins, which don't imbalance gameplay.
Though I have gotten free skins due to Riot giving out free RP every so often.

They also have 10 free random Champions every week,
so after several weeks, you'd have the chance of playing all the heroes.

As for Runes+Masteries it means that even if 2 people play the same character,
That character can be played totally different, it's awesome.

I'd say it's up there as one of the best free games ever.
It's huge fanbase probably agrees.

 

[Htown]

35 official maps? Seriously? The last time I played (probably 2 years ago), everyone was still playing the same maps from release.

Arguably the most popular TF2 game mode (payload) didn't even exist at launch. They never stop adding things.

 

[Archie]

I'm guessing you're a DOTA2 fan.

I haven't payed a dime myself, have several heroes and most runes.
Don't even play that often, but have had the game for 2 years.
Only things that cost actual money are skins, which don't imbalance gameplay.

You are correct that the only thing that can be bought via real money transactions are skins, but in the past year Riot has released every champion at the two highest price points of 6300 and 4800 (and the past 12 champs have all been released at 6300). So you have to play alot or spend money to keep up to date with the latest content.

As for Runes+Masteries it means that even if 2 people play the same character,
That character can be played totally different, it's awesome.

Runes mean that I must either decide between spending my IP between a new character, or giving my character an advantage in game.

Also changing the way a champ plays is stretching it. My AP mage isn't going to suddenly become a tank because I bought a bunch of armor runes.

Masteries are pointless fluff and most people follow cookie cutter builds because they are typically the best.

 

[Nelo Ice]

Glad to see it's worked out well for Valve. TF2s F2P model is the only one I've seen that works for the most part since it doesn't lock u out of any essential content.

 

[Skeyser]

But is it fun?

Spoiler

No

LoL has over 12 million active users, I guess all those people don't know what fun is.

 

[Sigismundo]

Also changing the way a champ plays is stretching it. My AP mage isn't going to suddenly become a tank because I bought a bunch of armor runes.

I'm not really fond of him but Viktor can be built in quite a few ways.

I'm not really fond of the LoL F2P system either.

 

[Ikuu]

What major implications?

For a start they need to release new champions on a regular basis, look at the champions they've released and they general use a generic skillset with some minor changes. They need to stop releasing champions and take a good look at the ones they have and what needs to be fixed/changed.

 

[Slavik81]

Here's a question I think is interesting: Could TF2 have become this without starting its life as a retail product?

 

[Archie]

Here's a question I think is interesting: Could TF2 have become this without starting its life as a retail product?

If TF2 had launched in 2007 with all of the additional content available today, then yes.

 

[Slavik81]

If TF2 had launched in 2007 with all of the additional content available today, then yes.

While there is that angle, I meant more in the context of TF2 as a guide for the development of future products. Obviously, they couldn't have released with years worth of community and developer-built content available on day 1. But could they have survived as a F2P game if they hadn't? Could they have thrived like they did here? Or would they have floundered like Battlefield Heroes?

 

[dave is ok]

Hopefully LoL will stop with the 'new champ every 2 weeks' eventually.

That being said, you can't really pay to have an advantage in that game. Runes are IP only and it's not like cheap champions are worse than expensive ones.

 

[Damon Bennet]

Join GAF's TF2 group. We are awesome and play every day, and the server always gets full. We play all kinds of maps (with user votes of course). JOIN US!

how do I find it. I always use the "search match" option, so I would appreciate a detailled explanaition.

 

[Card Boy]

LoL's business model is garbage i still don't understand why people even defend it. We get it you love the game, but stop being blind. It costs acouple hundred dollars to unlock all the Champs, and years of playtime to do it for free. Do things like Tribes: Ascend where it costs $50 to unlock every weapon from the get go.

Even HoN was selling all its Heroes for $10 awhile back.

 

[dave is ok]

LoL's business model is garbage i still don't understand why people even defend it. We get it you love the game, but stop being blind. It costs acouple hundred dollars to unlock all the Champs, and years of playtime to do it for free. Do things like Tribes: Ascend where it costs $50 to unlock every weapon from the get go.

Even HoN was selling all its Heroes for $10 awhile back.

You can get 40-something champions for like 30 bucks through the bundles. You don't need every champion in a game like LoL. Many fill the exact same role just slightly differently. The 10 free ones a week let you try out new ones and decide what to spend your points on, I don't see a problem with it.

 

[dimb]

LoL's model is trash compared to TF2.

They're like...the same thing. Except TF2 is a slot machine on top of being a time sink. And League of Legends is at least kind of balanced with the stuff it adds. TF2 prices are way crazier even, it's really just gross looking at the store.

 

[Card Boy]

I was so fed up with the LoL business model that i sold my account for just over $50, thats how much i hate it. I put $30 of that into Tribes, I have no regrets selling it. The 6300 IP champs where an insult coupled with the Rune grinding.

 

[Yeef]

how do I find it. I always use the "search match" option, so I would appreciate a detailled explanaition.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=439895

All the info you need is right at the top. Joining the steam group is the easiest way to know when a game gets going. Announcements/Events are posted pretty much daily at around 8 PM or so (Eastern time). From there the server fills up pretty quickly so if you don't join soon after you may have trouble getting a spot. The server IP will be in the event details, or you can just click server name in the topic ("NeoGAF Janky Ass Server 4.0 | Live Free or Jank Hard")

 

[Ikuu]

You can get 40-something champions for like 30 bucks through the bundles. You don't need every champion in a game like LoL. Many fill the exact same role just slightly differently. The 10 free ones a week let you try out new ones and decide what to spend your points on, I don't see a problem with it.

And there you go, Riot can't make champions that are all that different. That can't make a champion like Broodmother as you would have such a huge advantage if someone couldn't pick a champion that does well against you.

 

[Tenck]

They're like...the same thing. Except TF2 is a slot machine on top of being a time sink. And League of Legends is at least kind of balanced with the stuff it adds. TF2 prices are way crazier even, it's really just gross looking at the store.

How are they the same? Legit question here.

 

[smurfx]

my fav f2p game will always be rtcw enemy territory. :3

 

[Odrion]

35 official maps? Seriously? The last time I played (probably 2 years ago), everyone was still playing the same maps from release.

Like most FPS games, you'll only end up liking maybe two of them.

Also if people have difficulties with the drop and crafting system, just use http://www.tf2wh.com/. It's how the system should of actually worked.

LoL's business model is garbage i still don't understand why people even defend it. We get it you love the game, but stop being blind. It costs acouple hundred dollars to unlock all the Champs

The game isn't about owning every champ.

For a start they need to release new champions on a regular basis, look at the champions they've released and they general use a generic skillset with some minor changes. They need to stop releasing champions and take a good look at the ones they have and what needs to be fixed/changed.

They do, there's been numerous champion fixes/remakes.

How are they the same? Legit question here.

Weapons = Champions, Hats = Skins. Except Champions have more art design, animations, effects, lore, and voice work put into them (and their skins), and are only $7 max.

but yeah, TF2's model is much easier for someone to get everything without spending much cash.

 

[Archie]

but yeah, TF2's model is much easier for someone to get everything without spending much cash.

Exactly.

Spend $5 in TF2: Buy 2 keys, trade them in at TF2WH, get every weapon in the game and have enough credits left over for a hat.

Spend $5 in LoL: get half a Teemo skin.

 

[Odrion]

Exactly.

Spend $5 in TF2: Buy a backpack expander, trade that in at TF2WH, get every weapon in the game and have enough credits left over for a hat.

Spend $5 in LoL: get half a Teemo skin.

Oh yes, that lovely backpack expander. That is somewhat of a exploit of a system that is out of Valve's control, but what does it matter to the customers?

I don't think the value propositions for champions are that high either. There is a TON of work put into each one.

Also this whole conversation may be silly because if Dota 2 takes on a F2P system (it'd be dumb if it didn't!) it'll probably have a very similar structure and pricing system as League.

 

[Night_Trekker]

Time for a billion more F2P game models.

I'm all for it, as long as those experiences are anywhere close to as well-designed as TF2.

While there is that angle, I meant more in the context of TF2 as a guide for the development of future products. Obviously, they couldn't have released with years worth of community and developer-built content available on day 1. But could they have survived as a F2P game if they hadn't? Could they have thrived like they did here? Or would they have floundered like Battlefield Heroes?

That's a good question. I suspect it would have done well as a day-one F2P game. The base game is very well-balanced and fun, and the game is constantly evolving and being tweaked, which adds a lot of motivation to keep playing. But I don't think it would have been quite as successful as it has been in our reality, no.