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[NemesisPrime]

Off the record. Leadbetter has his sources for DF, he claims all the specs are up to date and have been verified. bkilliian is another that has given a silent nod. Not to mention there are hundreds of developers who have these documents and kits and none has said the VGAleaks are erroneous.

These are not the specs you are looking for.

 

[KidBeta]

If it's true that Durango developers(for launch games) are being forced to write to a strict DX API then what does it matter what the end hardware is as long as it's as or more powerful than the hardware their coding on?

Because hardware design is a long and tedious process ? so as I've said in the past, they can make as many changes as they want, if they do not want to launch this year.

 

[Galacticos]

I must have been living under a rock lately. Did Microsoft reveal their console ? Or do you work at Microsoft? I mean since we are comparing a revealed console with no reveals at all?

Why the attitude? Durango is pretty much revealed by now.
Last minute changes are off the table (except RAM) so it is what it is.

 

[AgentP]

When thuway says that many developers still use the alpha kits and dice doesn't know where did you get those 100 from? And Dice isn't a small one.

You are confounding things, the developer kits and documents are out there in the hands of just about all, whether alpha or beta. The specs in the docs don't have to match the specs of the dev kits. The documents are part of the XDK and can typically be DLed from the MS developer website. Dice certainly knows the same specs that in the docs, they just don't know the final numbers, I doubt MS does at this point. They have to balance the various clockspeeds and TDPs to get something that is realistic and won't give reliability problems.

 

[Klocker]

I'm sure they did use the PC based dev kits. But my point is that Sony seem to have a dev kit out there that has the actual SoC that is going in PS4 rather than a PC that has Intel Xeon chips like the Durango Alpha kit. (not sure what's changed in the Beta kit)

Microsoft did a similar thing with the 360, so I guess it is par for the course for them. I just would have thought it better to have final/near final HW out there in dev hands for as long as possible before release.

I had not heard final silicon was in PS4 kits yet, still under impression it is simulated hardware.


Also regarding MS dev kits ERP on B3D opined...

Probably not a poker game, probably just a reflection of the state of the silicon.
MS has traditionally been rather late providing real devkits, and they may not be doing large runs of early silicon for devkits rather keeping the distribution limited and resolving any bugs before distributing more broadly.
Typically publishers/devs pay for every revision of a devkit separately, so that could also be part of the issue.
If devkits aren't around in quantity in the June/July timeframe I'd worry about a 2013 launch, practically they would have to start QA for disks not long after that.

 

[tinfoilhatman]

Because hardware design is a long and tedious process ? so as I've said in the past, they can make as many changes as they want, if they do not want to launch this year.

This assumes that MS hasn't had multiple designs from the get go......which we know for a fact they've had.

Unlikely yes but not out of the realm of possibility

 

[Master_JO]

Why the attitude? Durango is pretty much revealed by now.
Last minute changes are off the table (except RAM) so it is what it is.

Sorry bro, no attitude at all. I was just making a point. And no, its not revealed yet till MS says so, Hell they can just cancel the whole project and berry the Xbox if they want.

 

[Perkel]

I think the main reason the 7970 was used is because the kits went out in Jan 2012 and the 7970 was literally the first GCN card released, in early Jan 2012. They could have downclocked them or disabled features via drivers, but they needed GCN GPUs to introduce the architecture to devs.

Well that is true. For Beta kits they will probably put some other slower GCN card. Also people need to realize that PC devkits need stronger hardware to emulate more efficient architecture.

 

[AgentP]

And not a single dev interviewed said they knew about the extra ram in the PS4. Not even Sony's own internals. The specs are final when Microsoft and Sony say they are. No matter how much people wish they were something else.

I was speaking about the specs in the documents. Sure if you want to believe they dumped their plan at the end of a multi-year process and redesigned the system, sure. There are very few things they can change this late in the game. For Sony it wasn't hard, they probably switched to 4Gbit GDDR5 chips instead of 2Gbit chips, no redesign or major change to the MB.

Well that is true. For Beta kits they will probably put some other slower GCN card. Also people need to realize that PC devkits need stronger hardware to emulate more efficient architecture.

I expect beta kits to be the near final APU with eSRAM.

 

[nib95]

And not a single dev interviewed said they knew about the extra ram in the PS4. Not even Sony's own internals. The specs are final when Microsoft and Sony say they are. No matter how much people wish they were something else.

I personally don't believe they are final, and think Microsoft will surprise on reveal. They have more leeway to as well, since dev kits already have better hardware in them than the console is purported to release with.

I doubt Microsoft will want the sort of performance gulf that has been rumoured, and feel that they'll up the ante somewhat to close that gap, whilst still remaining affordable(ish).

 

[artist]

If you're going to believe one rumor, why would you dismiss another? Especially when he's been the source for many of the rumors that people claim are correct. The only time some people dismiss SuperDAE is when he says the rumors about always having to be connected to the Internet just to play games and the no-used games thing are bullshit. That's when people claim his info is "biased".

You missed the part where he said that Durango's specs are changed significantly. He also said VGLeaks' info was old and they said it was from this year (2013). So one of them is definitely lying.

Couple that with Kotaku's piece where Jason clearly mentioned that SuperDae's bias was obvious and most of it was due to his dialogue with MS and Epic.

 

[Master_JO]

And not a single dev interviewed said they knew about the extra ram in the PS4. Not even Sony's own internals. The specs are final when Microsoft and Sony say they are. No matter how much people wish they were something else.



If you're going to believe one rumor, why would you dismiss another? Especially when he's been the source for many of the rumors that people claim are correct. The only time some people dismiss SuperDAE is when he says the rumors about always having to be connected to the Internet just to play games and the no-used games thing are bullshit. That's when people claim his info is "biased".

I read all the rumors to paint a close picture but doesn't believe in any of them like most people do. Nothing until MS reveals so I won't look like dumass with comments I've made

 

[MightyHedgehog]

This assumes that MS hasn't had multiple designs from the get go......which we know for a fact they've had.

Unlikely yes but not out of the realm of possibility

I think it's more than likely and that there's a reason for a lack of more concrete details due to MS' lockdown on leaks. I just hope that the Yukon paper overview, with its explicit inclusion of the PPC Xenon chipset for BC, is a part of the final 'Box. Certainly, with plans like that in place so long ago, and MS owning that piece and working with AMD to integrate it for compatibility with the new graphics and memory subsystem parts, they could leverage it as a powerful co-processor when not engaged in BC use.

 

[Crimson_Gold]

These are not the specs you are looking for.

Hmm.

Clap once if better. Clap 3 times if it is worse. Say nothing if it is about the same as we know now.

 

[tfur]

So 7970 is the new copious special sauce?

It seems like MS would have to start ordering components in the few 2 months to produce something for the holiday season.

Not to mention the rumor about the "heads are going to roll" quote, if it does not ship by September.

 

[Baconsammy]

Missed the part where you said that Durango's specs are changed significantly. He also said VGLeaks' info was old and they said it was from this year (2013). So one of them is definitely lying.

Couple that with Kotaku's piece where Jason clearly mentioned that SuperDae's bias was obvious and most of it was due to his dialogue with MS and Epic.

Kotaku wants it both ways, which is why they're such a shit site. On one hand they're using him as their main source of info that they want to drive readership with, and on the other hand they want to dismiss him because maybe they're hearing something different elsewhere. So at the end of the day they can say, "Hey we weren't wrong." The other shitty thing is they're not pushing him on the stuff they think he's lying about (or that we think he's lying/biased about). He gave you all that info, why not push him on the used-game/always online stuff? Someone that tried to sell a dev unit on Ebay is suddenly going to find Jesus and not answer your question? One thing's for certain, he's biased towards Microsoft, but to what degree is that bias clouding the info he provides?

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

I had not heard final silicon was in PS4 kits yet, still under impression it is simulated hardware.


Also regarding MS dev kits ERP on B3D opined...

I'm just going by the so far reliable VGleaks PS4 devkit roadmap and seeing this picture:

The look of this devkit makes me believe it is a custom unit that doesn't contain off the shelf PC parts. I could be wrong of course...

 

[artist]

Kotaku wants it both ways, which is why they're such a shit site. On one hand they're using him as their main source of info that they want to drive readership with, and on the other hand they want to dismiss him because maybe they're hearing something different elsewhere. So at the end of the day they can say, "Hey we weren't wrong." The other shitty thing is they're not pushing him on the stuff they think he's lying about (or that we think he's lying/biased about). He gave you all that info, why not push him on the used-game/always online stuff? Someone that tried to sell a dev unit on Ebay is suddenly going to find Jesus and not answer your question? One thing's for certain, he's biased towards Microsoft, but to what degree is that bias clouding the info he provides?

We dont know what this "all" entails. And the reason like you said they're not publishing anything on used-games/always online is that the docs provided by SuperDae are not conclusive enough or they may be hearing different things from their other sources. I'm definitely not defending Kotaku, just laying out all kinds of possibilities. SuperDae had nothing to lose (his assumption until he got caught) and Kotaku has their reputation (whatever it is) to lose.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

I don't know why people assume that because a alpha dev kit has massively powerful card that there will be downgrades.

They probably picked the card that made the most sense at the time, theres nothing saying it doesnt have a custom bios giving it a closer performance to the final product.

Only one person claimed as much. thuway and he's increasingly looking more and more silly by not only standing by the claim but attempting to damage control his initial comments.

 

[SniperHunter]

Only one person claimed as much. thuway and he's increasingly looking more and more silly by not only standing by the claim but attempting to damage control his initial comments.

He has been right on for everything so far....

 

[Baconsammy]

We dont know what this "all" entails. And the reason like you said they're not publishing anything on used-games/always online is that the docs provided by SuperDae are not conclusive enough or they may be hearing different things from their other sources. I'm definitely not defending Kotaku, just laying out all kinds of possibilities. SuperDae had nothing to lose (his assumption until he got caught) and Kotaku has their reputation (whatever it is) to lose.

But still, he's adamant the rumors are wrong. Ask him why he's so sure.

Only one person claimed as much. thuway and he's increasingly looking more and more silly by not only standing by the claim but attempting to damage control his initial comments.

Not sure why you hang on Thuway's words so much. He's been wrong repeatedly and then claimed "Oh they must have changed it" after the fact, and then he teases more "inside" info in hopes that people will keep paying attention. Just filter out the sources that do this.

Hopefully we're getting close to an actual reveal so that these conversations can finally turn from what-ifs to definitives. Although it's entirely possible that if Microsoft thinks there's a wide gap in power they may not publish specs until it releases as Nintendo did. I doubt they could shut up developers though.

He has been right on for everything so far....

My sarcasm detector broke.

 

[artist]

He has been right on for everything so far....

Nope ..

 

[KageMaru]

Off the record. Leadbetter has his sources for DF, he claims all the specs are up to date and have been verified. bkilliian is another that has given a silent nod. Not to mention there are hundreds of developers who have these documents and kits and none has said the VGAleaks are erroneous.

I thought Leadbetter shouldn't be trusted due to his agenda of being a MS fanboy.

If it's true that Durango developers(for launch games) are being forced to write to a strict custom DX API then what does it matter what the end hardware is as long as it's as or more powerful than the hardware their coding on?

The power of the dev kits or final hardware isn't all that matters. If developers know what the target performance is, they will design their game for this target.

Not sure how strict the API is. People assume the 360's API is very limiting, restricting devs to code to the metal, when that's not really the case.

 

[Beer Monkey]

The look of this devkit makes me believe it is a custom unit that doesn't contain off the shelf PC parts. I could be wrong of course...

Because it doesn't use an off the shelf faceplate? Do PC-based console devkits usually use some standard Antec case or something?

 

[CrunchinJelly]

He has been right on for everything so far....

Yep.

 

[enzo_gt]

If you're going to believe one rumor, why would you dismiss another? Especially when he's been the source for many of the rumors that people claim are correct. The only time some people dismiss SuperDAE is when he says the rumors about always having to be connected to the Internet just to play games and the no-used games thing are bullshit. That's when people claim his info is "biased".

Yeah I'm not quite sure where the SuperDAE can't be trusted thing even came from, he's given us some of the most concrete and corroborated stuff yet. Repeatedly.

 

[tinfoilhatman]

I thought Leadbetter shouldn't be trusted due to his agenda of being a MS fanboy.



The power of the dev kits or final hardware isn't all that matters. If developers know what the target performance is, they will design their game for this target.

Not sure how strict the API is. People assume the 360's API is very limiting, restricting devs to code to the metal, when that's not really the case.

Understood but the rumors are\were that Microsoft is\was forcing developers to stick to the documented API's available for Durango which sounded like a stricter stance than it was with 360.

 

[itsgreen]

Yep.

To be fair, (nearly) all devs have indicated they didn't know Sony was going to do that.

 

[Xamdou]

Yep.

Lol, this thuway guy sure knows his stuff.

 

[KageMaru]

Understood but the rumors are\were that Microsoft is\was forcing developers to stick to the documented API's available for Durango which sounded like a stricter stance than it was with 360.

It may be, but that all depends on what's being forced through the API and what isn't.

I don't think it's going to make a huge difference in the end when the API is going to be tailored to the hardware.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

He has been right on for everything so far....

He has? I somehow doubt it.

Let's say for argument sake he's been right some of the time, he's absolutely wrong with this claim, for all the reasons that have been listed numerous times.

Even if the alpha kit has a 7970, they are still developing towards targeted specifications. They aren't just developing games and utilizing the entire power of the 7970. It's a ridiculous claim and one that he should have just put his hands up and said he was wrong on instead of attempting to damage control and looking silly/losing all credibility in the process.

 

[SniperHunter]

Yep.

Sony got lucky....both we 4 gigs and 8 gigs he said that yesterday

 

[SniperHunter]

He has? I somehow doubt it.

Let's say for argument sake he's been right some of the time, he's absolutely wrong with this claim, for all the reasons that have been listed numerous times.

Even if the alpha kit has a 7970, they are still developing towards targeted specifications. They aren't just developing games and utilizing the entire power of the 7970. It's a ridiculous claim and one that he should have just put his hands up and said he was wrong on instead of attempting to damage control and looking silly/losing all credibility in the process.

Shit happens sony had sli 6600!? In early ps3 dev kits

 

[SpaceHobo]

There is no desperation for them to fail, we are simply trying to analyze the situation. And you can hardly call thuway "so called insider" (I presume you are referring to him) since he, along with Bruce Lee Roy, provided the most accurate info regarding next gen.

Granted Bruce Lee Roy seems to be informed, but Thuway ?

And then the E3 bait and switch rumor it is really holding me back to preorder the next xbox. Just to be save. Im not interested in a castrated pc service box. Because i have too many gadgets that can do that already.

A rumour started on here , by someone claiming to have info.

He has been right on for everything so far....

Has he though ?

Seems it goes :

* Throw around a bunch of rumours you read on the net around multiple threads
* Act like you were told them rather than just read them
* 1 or 2 things come true , some one refereed to you as an "insider"
* Things get talked about, name get used as prrof of something in a thread, people read it , assume X must know stuff and go on to reference X in other threads , contributing to his legend.
* X is now a certified insider and is used as proof in console war threads , until....
* Half the stuff they wrote turns out to be hyperbole/lies/damn lies and X disappears for a while before popping back up to continue being "in the know"

Thuway and others like him may or may not have had genuine info at points, or just been better at google than the average forum goer , but the celebrity they are afforded for essentially throwing **** at a wall until something sticks is laughable.

 

[BlackJace]

still taking things with a grain of salt

I was being sarcastic if you couldn't tell :/

 

[Artimities]

I hate reading in general... so forgive me if this is mentioned...

Is it confirmed that there will be no used games?

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Not sure why you hang on Thuway's words so much. He's been wrong repeatedly and then claimed "Oh they must have changed it" after the fact, and then he teases more "inside" info in hopes that people will keep paying attention. Just filter out the sources that do this.

Hopefully we're getting close to an actual reveal so that these conversations can finally turn from what-ifs to definitives. Although it's entirely possible that if Microsoft thinks there's a wide gap in power they may not publish specs until it releases as Nintendo did. I doubt they could shut up developers though.

It's not about hanging in his every word. He made an extraordinary claim as someone who was, at the time, as a semi-reputable source, I merely asked for clarification to his extraordinary claim so it wouldn't be brought up endlessly and be thrown around as fact.

Shit happens sony had sli 6600!? In early ps3 dev kits

Right and I'm sure Sony made sure to tell developers that they had a target spec in mind. Just as Microsoft would have done if the alpha kits do indeed have 7970's in them.

 

[Baconsammy]

I hate reading in general... so forgive me if this is mentioned...

Is it confirmed that there will be no used games?

There are currently no used games for the next Xbox yet. Will there be some after it's released? We shall see. A less dickish answer to your question is: No confirmation. Microsoft hasn't even acknowledged they have a new console yet.

 

[SniperHunter]

Right and I'm sure Sony made sure to tell developers that they had a target spec in mind. Just as Microsoft would have done if the alpha kits do indeed have 7970's in them.

Look at the drop in graphics in MGS4 TGS 2005 demo vs e3 2006 demo

 

[nib95]

Yep.

That's the only thing he's been wrong on. But hardly any of the devs knew that. He's been right on nearly everything else, including certain details he divulged to me but not the forum publicly, pertaining to DriveClub and a few other titbits.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Look at the drop in graphics in MGS4 TGS 2005 demo vs e3 2006 demo

All 2005 demos from Sony were fiddled/mocked up in some way. You can't simply single one out and in any way attempt to claim or suggest it backs up thuway's comments.

 

[AgentP]

So we have three posiibilities IMO:

1. The leaked specs are basically correct, MS is now fab'ing the APUs and near final kits are due soon.
2. The leaked docs are false, MS has been working on something higher end all along, hence the 7970 in the alpha.
3. The specs were real, they changed them and will release in 2014.

 

[SniperHunter]

All 2005 demos from Sony were fiddled/mocked up in some way. You can't simply single one out and in any way attempt to claim or suggest it backs up thuway's comments.

I said tgs 2005 not e3 2005...and I am talking about kojima productions, a studio that has never mislead or lied about real time graphics. Ps3 using a
Sli gpus is well docunented on net...I am on phone so I cant provide links atm

 

[AgentP]

I thought Leadbetter shouldn't be trusted due to his agenda of being a MS fanboy.

Don't be childish, you were being so good in this thread. Leadbetter has his bias, as we all do, he just makes the mistake of editorializing in tech face-off articles. His reputation and DF's reputation are at stake with the leaks, he is sure to multi-source his info. I trust anyone with something on the line over some anonymous forum poster any day of the week.

4 - The specs are real and the rumored manufacturing issues are true and it's coming out in 2014.

That would be bad for all gamers, we need competition and devs need more platforms to recoup costs.

 

[Baconsammy]

That's the only thing he's been wrong on. But hardly any of the devs knew that. He's been right on nearly everything else, including certain details he divulged to me but not the forum publicly, pertaining to DriveClub and a few other titbits.

Good go no. He was also on board the "Next Xbox is going to be more powerful than the PS4" train. Not saying he was lying or making shit up, but he was dead wrong, which is why I told the other guy not to invest too much hope in leakers being accurate.

So we have three posiibilities IMO:

4 - The specs are real and the rumored manufacturing issues are true and it's coming out in 2014.

Yeah but that was based on the dev kits going out in which Durango was significantly more powerful in every way. Iherre and BK confirmed that as well.

Like I said, I'm not saying the people who are wrong are lying or making it up. They're just being proven wrong by the fact that nothing is written in stone.

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

Good go no. He was also on board the "Next Xbox is going to be more powerful than the PS4" train. Not saying he was lying or making shit up, but he was dead wrong, which is why I told the other guy not to invest too much hope in leakers being accurate.

Yeah but that was based on the dev kits going out in which Durango was significantly more powerful in every way. Iherre and BK confirmed that as well.

Like I said, I'm not saying the people who are wrong are lying or making it up. They're just being proven wrong by the fact that nothing is written in stone.

Very true.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

I said tgs 2005 not e3 2005...and I am talking about kojima productions, a studio that has never mislead or lied about real time graphics. Ps3 using a
Sli gpus is well docunented on net...I am on phone so I cant provide links atm

Sorry, I misread your post.

The point still stands, the shift was from a technical demo to one that was actual gameplay. Microsoft rarely show technical demos and always make a point of showing off, no matter how poorly optimised the footage, actual gameplay footage.

The only way they could get away with showing a tech demo is if they aren't launching this year or only show off games that aren't in the launch window, which they can't do.

 

[nib95]

Good go no. He was also on board the "Next Xbox is going to be more powerful than the PS4" train. Not saying he was lying or making shit up, but he was dead wrong, which is why I told the other guy not to invest too much hope in leakers being accurate.

It WAS more powerful than the PS4 initially, based purely on the dev kit comparisons. This is not wrong, and a few other insiders also concurred. You have to realise that there was a huge ram deficit early on with the Orbis kits, this has been improved over time. Again, he was completely accurate at the time of posting.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

I said tgs 2005 not e3 2005...and I am talking about kojima productions, a studio that has never mislead or lied about real time graphics. Ps3 using a
Sli gpus is well docunented on net...I am on phone so I cant provide links atm

I remember it. I think I read here that Kojima wasn't too pleased with the final PS3 devkit performance.

The devkit used at TGS '05 was a 2.4Ghz Cell/GeForce 6800 Ultra SLI? Because Nvidia claimed RSX was 2X the power of the 6800 Ultra....

 

[thuway]

thuway is a liar.

You have to understand these things are fluid. Leadbetter, himself, before the conference, in a email we were having, was unaware of the 8 GB of RAM upgrade. An internal developer I have been talking to at SCEE was unaware. You can't blame me for being adamant on the point. GAF itself imploded with 8 GB GDDR5 -_-.