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Warner Bros Reboots 'Buffy The Vampire Slayer' Without Joss Whedon

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A

anaron

Member
Tobor said:
I would also add that it's interesting from a psychological standpoint that so many people can accept a murdering monster guilty of killing countless people in a veiled metaphor for sex being redeemed, but have such an issue with a similar character being redeemed after attempted rape.
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Probably because the scenario in which Buffy is nearly raped is entirely implausible considering she's shown herself more than capable in kicking Spike's ass. Well that, and the writers actually trying to build a romance out of that 'relationship' following that event.





Hell no. Getting rid of Cordelia, the lead female (as much as I love Amy Acker, Fred isn't lead female material as much as they tried to make her) and replacing her with more fucking Spike was the biggest insult Whedon has ever commited.
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It makes me rage everytime someone lists season five as Angel's best and subsequently mentions how "Spike is so awesome."
 
B

BattleMonkey

Member
The Storyteller said:
Hell no. Getting rid of Cordelia, the lead female (as much as I love Amy Acker, Fred isn't lead female material as much as they tried to make her) and replacing her with more fucking Spike was the biggest insult Whedon has ever commited.
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Wasn't that not really his choice, she chose to leave the show from what I remember because of her pregnancy.
 
T

Tobor

Member
BattleMonkey said:
Wasn't that not really his choice, she chose to leave the show from what I remember because of her pregnancy.
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Her character had been butchered beyond belief by that point anyway. If we're talking about bad Buffy-verse seasons, Angel season 3-4 is hard to top.
 
D

dead souls

Member
BattleMonkey said:
Musical was nice, but still didn't fix the rest of the shitty season, or season 7.
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Too true.

Even when I used to be a huge Whedon fan I wouldn't defend either of those seasons, with the exception of a couple of decent episodes.

I've found that even the better seasons of Buffy/Angel don't really compare all that favorably to the kind of quality television that airs now. Whedon is extremely overrated.
 
R

Replicant

Member
The Storyteller said:
Hey man, at least he isn't as bad as the people defending Spike back when the episode first aired. That's when you know the writing is shit (and you have the most delusional fans in the world).



Hell no. Getting rid of Cordelia, the lead female (as much as I love Amy Acker, Fred isn't lead female material as much as they tried to make her) and replacing her with more fucking Spike was the biggest insult Whedon has ever commited.
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Spike's fangirls back in the day made me sick. Especialy those who said Buffy had it coming for rejecting that POS of character. WTF?!!!

And "NO THANKS" to adding him to Angel S5. Not only they got rid of Cordy to facilitate this, they also reduced Wesley's role that season.

To be honest, I'm still soured on both Buffy and Angel as series thanks to this shitty character.
 
A

anaron

Member
Tobor said:
Her character had been butchered beyond belief by that point anyway. If we're talking about bad Buffy-verse seasons, Angel season 3-4 is hard to top.
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Not in a million years but sure.
 
A

anaron

Member
Tobor said:
I'm being too hard on Season 3, there's plenty of good stuff in there. But thats where Cordy as a character ran off the tracks.
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No that's where Charisma's hair went to shit. :p

Season four -- barring Concord -- is mainly fantastic.
 
D

dejay

Banned
The Storyteller said:
Hey man, at least he isn't as bad as the people defending Spike back when the episode first aired. That's when you know the writing is shit (and you have the most delusional fans in the world).



Hell no. Getting rid of Cordelia, the lead female (as much as I love Amy Acker, Fred isn't lead female material as much as they tried to make her) and replacing her with more fucking Spike was the biggest insult Whedon has ever commited.
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Depends what you're watching the show for I guess - it definitely meant different things to different people. I liked Spike with Angel purely for the comedy relief - I never considered Spike a lead anything, just a side character with some quirks, like Xander in Buffy.

I think emo Conner and his relationship with Cordelia put me off Cordelia and the show to a large extent. When Conner was written out of history the show got better. The absence of Charisma didn't affect me that much - besides wasn't one of the reasons she left was because she got pregnant?

My favourite characters were Wesley, especially in the last two and a half seasons, and Lilah. Alexis' two death scenes with Amy broke my heart a little.
 
T

TheOMan

Tagged as I see fit
OuterWorldVoice said:
Relax guys! Check out the new writer's pedigree!

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1578005/

nen4y.jpg
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But there's nothing...


Oh...oh, I see what you did there.
 
V

Vamphuntr

Member
dejay said:
I think emo Conner and his relationship with Cordelia put me off Cordelia and the show to a large extent. When Conner was written out of history the show got better. The absence of Charisma didn't affect me that much - besides wasn't one of the reasons she left was because she got pregnant?

My favourite characters were Wesley, especially in the last two and a half seasons, and Lilah. Alexis' two death scenes with Amy broke my heart a little.
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So true about the Connor/Cordelia stuff. I know she was controlled by the mystical goddess of doom or whatever but god these scenes were awful too watch. You also had every supporting characters saying "this is so wrong, she is practically like a mother to him". The worse were those scenes in their warehouse like apartment. My eyes bleed every single time I watch the dvds. Also hated that wannabe biker chick that was fully devoted to Holtz.
 
D

dejay

Banned
Tobor said:
At least we all agree on Connor. :lol
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I actually disliked baby Connor the most - Angel going gaga over him and the rest of the cast getting clucky. Made me want to throw up. At least Wesley had the right idea - take him away!
 
R

Replicant

Member
Ugh, Connor. He's the reason I can't get into Mad Men, no matter what people say about that show. Him and James Marster. I try to avoid any project that has them in it. Except if their character die horribly in it. HAHAHAHAHA.
 
B

butter_stick

Banned
I watched every episode of Buffy and Angel, but looking back on the show now it's mostly complete trash. It won't take much to match Whedon's standards beyond getting a cast of females I'd want to masturbate to when I was 13.
 
T

The Storyteller

Member
BattleMonkey said:
Wasn't that not really his choice, she chose to leave the show from what I remember because of her pregnancy.
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No, she was pregnant during season 4 hence the giving birth to herself plotline :)lol Loved that season to bits but that part still gets me.) She was fired, because Whedon didn't know what to do with her character (she didnt have any "special skill" that could apply to working in Wolfram and Hart). Really could've been a great chance to redeem Cordy's character, in fact it would've been a great opportunity for Cordelia to wake up and be pissed that the gang took a job at Wolfram and Hart in the first place, and have a potential plotline where she was trying to get to the bottom of what the firm was trying to accomplish. Instead we got all the characters conveniently forgetting she exists. It would've also been a great opportunity for the writers to use her condition as the main catalyst for Team Angel joining Wolfram and Hart in the first place. And also the first couple of episodes couldve dealt with them trying to save her (instead we got fucking Spike). I mean, they went fucking apeshit when Fred died (in one of the worst episodes of the show) but Cordy in a coma got one throwaway line in the premiere. Still makes me fucking RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE to this day.

anaron said:
Not in a million years but sure.
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Indeed. Season 3 and 4 were by far the best of Angel. Season 3 had a lot of shitty episodes, but as a season it was really well contructed and utilised cast fantastically (barring Fred's constant damsel in distress mode). Season 4 was just excellent, epic storytelling that was impressively developed and built up over the seasons.
 
T

TheVampire

Banned
Vamphuntr said:
4- Full of shitty filler episode (There is an episode with a magic invisible ray gun thing, an episode on Fast Food, an episode where they get stuck in Buffy's house)
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That episode was funny!
 
D

dejay

Banned
The Storyteller said:
No, she was pregnant during season 4 hence the giving birth to herself plotline :)lol Loved that season to bits but that part still gets me.) She was fired, because Whedon didn't know what to do with her character (she didnt have any "special skill" that could apply to working in Wolfram and Hart). Really could've been a great chance to redeem Cordy's character, in fact it would've been a great opportunity for Cordelia to wake up and be pissed that the gang took a job at Wolfram and Hart in the first place, and have a potential plotline where she was trying to get to the bottom of what the firm was trying to accomplish. Instead we got all the characters conveniently forgetting she exists. It would've also been a great opportunity for the writers to use her condition as the main catalyst for Team Angel joining Wolfram and Hart in the first place. And also the first couple of episodes couldve dealt with them trying to save her (instead we got fucking Spike). I mean, they went fucking apeshit when Fred died (in one of the worst episodes of the show) but Cordy in a coma got one throwaway line in the premiere. Still makes me fucking RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE to this day.
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Hole in the Earth was one of my favourite episodes but you're right, they didn't seem to do much to save Cordelia. The show has always been full of inconsistencies in the character's reactions to particular crisis when it came to following the plot lines. Lets's spend a billion dollars on making Spike corporeal, but Cordelia's in a coma? Oh, we'll leave her in the hands of Wolfram and Hart doctors.
 
T

Tobor

Member
The Storyteller said:
No, she was pregnant during season 4 hence the giving birth to herself plotline :)lol Loved that season to bits but that part still gets me.) She was fired, because Whedon didn't know what to do with her character (she didnt have any "special skill" that could apply to working in Wolfram and Hart). Really could've been a great chance to redeem Cordy's character, in fact it would've been a great opportunity for Cordelia to wake up and be pissed that the gang took a job at Wolfram and Hart in the first place, and have a potential plotline where she was trying to get to the bottom of what the firm was trying to accomplish. Instead we got all the characters conveniently forgetting she exists. It would've also been a great opportunity for the writers to use her condition as the main catalyst for Team Angel joining Wolfram and Hart in the first place. And also the first couple of episodes couldve dealt with them trying to save her (instead we got fucking Spike). I mean, they went fucking apeshit when Fred died (in one of the worst episodes of the show) but Cordy in a coma got one throwaway line in the premiere. Still makes me fucking RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE to this day.



Indeed. Season 3 and 4 were by far the best of Angel. Season 3 had a lot of shitty episodes, but as a season it was really well contructed and utilised cast fantastically (barring Fred's constant damsel in distress mode). Season 4 was just excellent, epic storytelling that was impressively developed and built up over the seasons.
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Source? I've never heard she was fired, but that she decided to leave.
 
T

The Storyteller

Member
Tobor said:
Source? I've never heard she was fired, but that she decided to leave.
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I cannot find the original source (links are likely dead) but here's an interview with Joss Whedon about it, that I found on another forum.
TV Guide Online: Why was Charisma's name removed from next season's cast list?

Joss Whedon: Mainly because we felt like we had taken that story — just like Buffy for seven years — about as far as it could go. The Angel/Cordelia [love story] had gone pretty much as far as we wanted to take it. Their romance was definitely not a popular move on our part, and I think with most fans. It just seemed like it was time because we were revamping the show, and then paring it down... it just seemed like a good time for certain people to move on. Not completely, obviously. I'm hoping that we'll get Charisma to do some episodes as Cordelia sometime during the year. She's a new mother, so, like Sarah [Michelle Gellar], I'm waiting to hear what her schedule is like. But it just seemed creatively like... I once said that I finally got to tell the story of Buffy that I tried to tell in the movie, and I did it with Cordelia. Which was the story of someone who was completely ditzy and self-involved becoming kind of heroic. But the way the series was different from the movie was that I didn't know where you go from there. So, I felt like we spent seven years playing that very arc, and it had played. Like Buffy itself, it's time to look at something new.

TVGO: Isn't that a disservice to fans who invested all those years in the character and her redemption? It seems an odd thing to do to the show's leading lady.

Whedon: That's a fluctuating concept, the leading lady thing. And it is a little odd. Some choices are ultimately kind of controversial about who stays and who goes and who we focus on. But obviously, we had to have her out of a bunch of episodes toward the end of the year because she was having a baby... so what we had [leading] up to it wasn't a dynamic I wanted to play out that much. The fact is, this is not the end — unless Charisma herself says, "You know what? I don't feel like doing any recurring episodes." But when you have an increasingly large ensemble week-by-week, and you come in in your [fifth] year kind of having to revamp the show and trim the budget and also think creatively, "How am I going to service all of these people?," sometimes the people who have been around the longest, you've done the most with them.

TVGO: Some are speculating that she was a casualty of James Marsters's cross over as Spike next season. Like, there wasn't enough money in the budget to pay for them both, so she got the boot.

Whedon: That's a hell of a thing to lay on James. It was a creative decision that we made before Spike came over to the show, and like I said, I don't intend to leave Cordelia in a coma for the rest of the Buffyverse. But the creative decision to have the character step down happened long before negotiations with James [started]. It should not be laid at his feet.

TVGO: Were things left on good terms with Charisma?

Yeah, but that's also stuff between us and not stuff that I would talk about in an interview.
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Aka fired. Aka Spike is a more important character than Coredlia ever was. Aka fuck you fans, I hate you. :lol
 
W

WanderingWind

Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
anaron said:
To get the best idea about the whole situation is to watch this video of Charisma addressing the whole issue at DragonCon.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_igTbXKPck

She's pretty honest about how things went down and Whedon was essentially pissed at her for getting pregnant. Yep.
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You will never convince me (and I am a Whedon fan) that his baffling, continued support of Eliza Dushku wasn't due to some sexual attraction on his part. Also, the dude continues to claim that he loves writing strong women, but just can't help making them rape victims, mindwiped sex slaves, easily manipulated dummies, prostitutes, etc.
 
M

madara

Member
butter_stick said:
I watched every episode of Buffy and Angel, but looking back on the show now it's mostly complete trash. It won't take much to match Whedon's standards beyond getting a cast of females I'd want to masturbate to when I was 13.
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facepalm. Typical internet, everything gets ragged on if you give it enough time. Clearly ya missed the boat and just how much chemistry the original cast had to say that. The show was just as much about friendship, real life trying to eat at those bonds then monsters and vampires. No way a remake is going understand that let alone match that. But if its boobs your looking for by all means I am sure that will be covered.
 
Z

Zenith

Banned
Vamphuntr said:
-Ordered a Buffy robot to fuck with
-Tried to rape Buffy
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Seasons 6 and 7 do not exist. They even parodied how shit everything was in the ep Buffy hallucinates she's in a mental hospital.
 
T

Tobor

Member
anaron said:
To get the best idea about the whole situation is to watch this video of Charisma addressing the whole issue at DragonCon.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_igTbXKPck

She's pretty honest about how things went down and Whedon was essentially pissed at her for getting pregnant. Yep.
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Interesting video. From the interview posted above and that video, it still seems like they made the right choice. The pregnancy definitely limited their options in season 4, which led to evil pregnant Cordy, which was a mistake. Then they revamped the show in a way that her character no longer fit. Like Charisma said though, that final episode in season 5 was really good.

I hope later someone asked Julie Benz a question. :lol
 
A

anaron

Member
Tobor said:
Interesting video. From the interview posted above and that video, it still seems like they made the right choice. The pregnancy definitely limited their options in season 4, which led to evil pregnant Cordy, which was a mistake. Then they revamped the show in a way that her character no longer fit. Like Charisma said though, that final episode in season 5 was really good.

I hope later someone asked Julie Benz a question. :lol
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Which betrayed seven years of a character's worth and buildup. She's easily my favourite character over both shows and to see her character basically thrown aside for fucking Spike is a joke. Season five is only moderately enjoyable has the viewer completely disregard what came before it.
 
H

hamchan

Member
anaron said:
Which betrayed seven years of a character's worth and buildup. She's easily my favourite character over both shows and to see her character basically thrown aside for fucking Spike is a joke. Season five is only moderately enjoyable has the viewer completely disregard what came before it.
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I think season five is the best season of Angel.
 
T

Tobor

Member
anaron said:
Which betrayed seven years of a character's worth and buildup. She's easily my favourite character over both shows and to see her character basically thrown aside for fucking Spike is a joke. Season five is only moderately enjoyable has the viewer completely disregard what came before it.
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Season 4. That's where the character was ruined. By 5 the damage was done, and her one episode was ironically better than every episode she was in in Season 4.
 
H

hamchan

Member
Also yes Conner sucks. He was alright looking until he got the longer hair, then he started looking really ugly. Vincent Kartheiser should stick with the Pete Campbell look from now on.
 
A

anaron

Member
Tobor said:
Season 4. That's where the character was ruined. By 5 the damage was done, and her one episode was ironically better than every episode she was in in Season 4.
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How exactly was her character ruined? That wasn't even her! :lol I certainly didn't like the direction they took her in that season but it wasn't permanently disparaging to the character of Cordelia and "You're Welcome" just further proved it.
 
R

Replicant

Member
anaron said:
To get the best idea about the whole situation is to watch this video of Charisma addressing the whole issue at DragonCon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_igTbXKPck

She's pretty honest about how things went down and Whedon was essentially pissed at her for getting pregnant. Yep.
Click to expand...

*Cringe* That is horrible. Joss is an asshole.

And adding Spike plus Eve (and axing Cordelia, Lilah - basically the interesting female characters and reducing Wesley's role) obviously did Angel S5 good......NOT!
 
T

Tobor

Member
anaron said:
How exactly was her character ruined? That wasn't even her! :lol I certainly didn't like the direction they took her in that season but it wasn't permanently disparaging to the character of Cordelia and "You're Welcome" just further proved it.
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It didn't matter to me if it was her or not. Her behavior was so out of place and ridiculous that the entire season is hard to watch, even now that I know the twist. At least the last few episodes put her in a coma so I didn't have to listen to her and Connor prattle on anymore.

We'll have to disagree on there being more for her to do after "You're Welcome". They were clearly out of ideas after they fell in love in Season 3, which I hated.
 
D

dead souls

Member
WanderingWind said:
You will never convince me (and I am a Whedon fan) that his baffling, continued support of Eliza Dushku wasn't due to some sexual attraction on his part. Also, the dude continues to claim that he loves writing strong women, but just can't help making them rape victims, mindwiped sex slaves, easily manipulated dummies, prostitutes, etc.
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Indeed. You couldn't be more on the money about Whedon's "feminism". Every time Whedon says what a great actress Dushku is I cringe. She's so awful.

The most insulting thing about Dushku is that she seems not to work on her craft at all. Every time I see her in something it's the same shitty performance. On the other hand look at someone else from the Buffy-verse like David Boreanaz. He was terrible in the first season of Buffy, but by the end of Angel it was obvious that he had made an effort to improve, and he had. Maybe that's why he's been starring on a network show for six years and Dushku can't keep from getting canceled.
 
A

anaron

Member
dead souls said:
Indeed. You couldn't be more on the money about Whedon's "feminism". Every time Whedon says what a great actress Dushku is I cringe. She's so awful.

The most insulting thing about Dushku is that she seems not to work on her craft at all. Every time I see her in something it's the same shitty performance. On the other hand look at someone else from the Buffy-verse like David Boreanaz. He was terrible in the first season of Buffy, but by the end of Angel it was obvious that he had made an effort to improve, and he had. Maybe that's why he's been starring on a network show for six years and Dushku can't keep from getting canceled.
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I know it's standard to say "but she was great as Faith" and then be met with "that's the only role she can play" but I honestly think it IS her strongest performance amidst her generally typecast roles.
 
G

ghstwrld

Member
I still can't believe Whedon and co never really deal with the revelation that Jasmine's been manipulating and orchestrating Team Angel's lives for years to enter their world. They just drop that shit on us, and keep on moving. :lol
 
B

butter_stick

Banned
madara said:
facepalm. Typical internet, everything gets ragged on if you give it enough time. Clearly ya missed the boat and just how much chemistry the original cast had to say that. The show was just as much about friendship, real life trying to eat at those bonds then monsters and vampires. No way a remake is going understand that let alone match that. But if its boobs your looking for by all means I am sure that will be covered.
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Like I said, I watched the show from the start, every week, for years. It's not like I watched all the episodes in a week one day and decided the show sucked.

Sorry, but Buffy just doesn't deserve the kind of praise a lot of otherwise sensible people give it. Joss Whedon was hardly some powerhouse of quality when he started on Buffy, the idea that NOBODY BUT JOSS can do something interesting with a franchise that isn't even his is typical internet, not me having an opinion on a show I watched religiously.
 
S

Spike6663

Member
What's the general concesus on Holtz then? He has been my fave big bad from Buffy/Angel for years but it seems Angel S3 isn't too popular here.
 
Z

Zenith

Banned
Spike6663 said:
What's the general concesus on Holtz then? He has been my fave big bad from Buffy/Angel for years but it seems Angel S3 isn't too popular here.
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Didn't like him. Maybe when he was slicing Wolfram soldiers down but the whole manipulation saga makes me yell "stop being so fucking dense" at his victims. He had his little minions listening in on Angel & Co's every word and they still didn't get that they were the good guys.
 
B

BattleMonkey

Member
Spike6663 said:
What's the general concesus on Holtz then? He has been my fave big bad from Buffy/Angel for years but it seems Angel S3 isn't too popular here.
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They dragged it out too much, he wasn't in it for the good, he was just out for revenge which got tired quick.
 
T

The Storyteller

Member
hamchan said:
Because he had to play a shitty character that nobody liked.
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People like Pete Campbell? I'll try and give the guy a pass because I'm going to assume he got a shitload of hate mail from pathetic Whedon fans, but he still comes across as a docuhe for not wanting to talk about his experience on Angel.

anaron said:
How exactly was her character ruined? That wasn't even her! :lol I certainly didn't like the direction they took her in that season but it wasn't permanently disparaging to the character of Cordelia and "You're Welcome" just further proved it.
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After a season without Cordelia I was looking forward to the characters having to deal with the fallout of season 4, trying to bring Cordy back, getting her back and exploring her issues.. I think season 5 betrayed so many things about the show I loved: serialised arcs, the dark and foreboding tone, and Cordelia, the heart of the show (I think Joss by this point believed that Fred was...:lol ). I honestly think it's bullshit that Joss or anyone on the staff could'nt think of a role for her in season 5, we had just spent a whole season without one of the most popular buffyverse characters and they thought it was a good idea to fire her? If they can have Harmony join the cast, and have a string of episodes with fucking Eve, then there is definitely room for your leading lady. She could've played the secretary role instead of Harmony and at the same time trying to find out why the fuck they were at Wolfram and Hart in the first place (I still dont buy that they'd join so easily).

However the season did have some standout episodes, like the finale, Origin, Smile Time and of course You're Welcome (sigh). So that definitely makes it better than the awful first season, but I'll probably bitch about season 5 more than any other.
 
T

Tabris

Member
WanderingWind said:
WhedonGAF has reached a consensus. With one voice, with one mind, we say -

FUCK. CONNOR.
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I disagree. Connor, while a dislikeable character, was the catalyst for the best scenes and seasons. I actually ended up caring about the character by the end too, it was an interesting transformation.

The second best scene of Angel is when Angel looks into the cabin at the end of season 4. So fucking heart breaking. The best scene is when Angel meets Wesley in the hospital after being unable to get Conner back in season 3.
 
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