Support NeoGAF

[plagiarize]

i know what you're saying by officially official, but since we've known for months that there was no optical out, this has been basically a given.

my speakers do a good job with Pro Logic 2... it's not quite dolby digital, but it's solid enough.

again i feel sorry for anyone expecting anything different.

still, it's not quite as big a deal to me as no 720p (which i have no problems dealing with, but is much more noticeable). switching from the 360 to the cube isn't jarring. i can hear the difference if i listen for it, but it's not right up in your face.

prime 2, re4 (incidentally cube version sounds a lot better than the PS2 one via optical, but then the ps2 wasn't DD5.1) and others sound great.

 

[Axord]

The Wii is best utilized by moving the controller around in the 5.1 sweet spot. So you can't tell me 5.1 couldn't have been brilliantly used in that environment.

I suppose any audio brilliance with the Wii will come from the speaker on the controller. And since that's a standard element, rather than an optional one like 5.1, developers can actually use that speaker for critical gameplay tasks.

Still, it's bound to be way more limited than a full speaker. Can't use it for music, might not even be able to switch between sound samples very fast.

 

[Stinkles]

Jesus, Stinkles, I was being sarcastic. :lol

Lols I know.

But I was being serious anyway.

 

[Filter]

Maybe you live in an extremely poor or uneducated area, but that is most certainly not how it is anywhere I've ever lived.

 

[Riddler]

Yea Wii is going for the average joe

 

[Gizmo_Monkey]

Was it just me or did everyone have a nightmare hooking up the GC to a surround sound receiver? at least in the UK anyway. Basically getting hold of a A/V lead for the GC that actually had a L/R audio input for a audio cable to go into from it to my sound system. There was like one ever made and it took me a while to actually find one well after i had bought my sound system...wonder what the Wii one is like? When it comes to HD and audio its like Nintendo make it uneccsarily difficult for the consumer to actually get these things....I'm sure you all know about the rare component cable for GC that you cant get now but you need for 480p, going for ridiuclous prices on ebay. Stupid Nintendo.

 

[Shogmaster]

Can we not talk anything technical about the Wii anymore? It's really depressing. Jeez.

 

[mrklaw]

the problem with DPLII is that you need a DPLII receiver. If you have a receiver with optical in, it will support DTS and DD. So you're covered for 360 and PS3. But not all receivers have DPLII. Mine doesn't, but I'm happy with it otherwise so I'm damned if I'm going to replace it just for nintendo games. But I'm pissed that I won't get surround sound from them.

 

[bycha]

**** that.

Go play Yakuza. It's a good game. Go to the streets. Listen. Most of the time you hear 5 sec clip on replay. 5 ****in second. Again and again. That's a 21 million dolla game.

Stop bitchin bout technology, bitch bout what developers make of it. Play RE4 on Cube.

 

[123rl]

Pro Logic 2 is ok, but I really wish they had used DD5.1. I've noticed that Pro Logic 2 quality varies a lot, because it's software-based. Some amps work very well with it, and some sound dreadful. Mine is somewhere in the middle. GC PL2 games sounded ok but tbh there is no difference between:

GC set to PL2 and receiver set to auto (which detects it's PL2, and switches automatically)
GC set to stereo sound, and receiver set to PL2

You need a PL2 receiver to use it, and it's entirely software-based. Nintendo could have left it at stereo sound, and it would sound exactly the same if you have a decent receiver

Was it just me or did everyone have a nightmare hooking up the GC to a surround sound receiver? at least in the UK anyway. Basically getting hold of a A/V lead for the GC that actually had a L/R audio input for a audio cable to go into from it to my sound system. There was like one ever made and it took me a while to actually find one well after i had bought my sound system...wonder what the Wii one is like? When it comes to HD and audio its like Nintendo make it uneccsarily difficult for the consumer to actually get these things....I'm sure you all know about the rare component cable for GC that you cant get now but you need for 480p, going for ridiuclous prices on ebay. Stupid Nintendo.

I had a tough time setting it up too. I'm an AV freak though so I improvised I bought a Game Gamecube RGB cable, because it RCA outputs alongside the scart block. So you could plug the scart (RGB as well...pretty decent output) in and then attach the stereo RCA leads to an amp. But I wanted to use the official RGB lead, because the quality was much better.

So I bought this:

http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/5342361.htm

It's a switchbox. What you need to do is plug the GC RGB lead into an input, and connect a scart lead from the output to your TV. The RCA sockets on this box have an output. So you plug two RCA leads from the audio output of this box, and into an input on your amp. Result - official RGB lead, with audio going to your amp via different leads.

 

[Slurpy]

“The Wii™ console will break down the walls that separate gamers from everyone else” said Koji Kondo, Manager, Sound Group, Entertainment Analysis and Development Division, Nintendo Co., Ltd. “Sound is a key part of this equation and because Wii supports Dolby Pro Logic II surround sound technology, we think everyone can have a great audio experience.”

Talk about failing at your position. If I were him I wouldn't have brought attention to it. GC not having DD was one thing.. and people were upset about that 5 years ago. But now? Come on. Just ridiculous.

 

[Aaron]

**** that.

Go play Yakuza. It's a good game. Go to the streets. Listen. Most of the time you hear 5 sec clip on replay. 5 ****in second. Again and again. That's a 21 million dolla game.

Stop bitchin bout technology, bitch bout what developers make of it. Play RE4 on Cube.

Play the jungle level on Perfect Dark Zero. Bleh game I know, but you'll swear the insects are in the room with you. RE4 is powerful sound-wise, but once you've experienced 5.1 used properly, everything less than it seems unconvincing. I honestly dislike playing PS2 games now just because I know the sound quality is incapable of meeting my expectations. To find out the Wii is again going for the low end... it's limiting and kind of depressing.

 

[bycha]

Play the jungle level on Perfect Dark Zero. Bleh game I know, but you'll swear the insects are in the room with you. RE4 is powerful sound-wise, but once you've experienced 5.1 used properly, everything less than it seems unconvincing. I honestly dislike playing PS2 games now just because I know the sound quality is incapable of meeting my expectations. To find out the Wii is again going for the low end... it's limiting and kind of depressing.

Perfect Dark Zero -- unimpressive game, so no chance ) Again -- it's how you use it. The problem with dd is that you have 2 compression one over the other -- 1st compression of sound file and 2nd compression of DD-codec, which is mp3-like it terms of quality. I have a pc and it's much better than consoles sound-wise. It have discrete 6ch analog output and it's much better than DD.
Still, rarely i am impressed with sound on it.

 

[Dragona Akehi]

Anyone pitching damage control for Nintendo over this is simply sad. Any receiver that does DPLII already does DD5.1. The saddest thing of all is that an optical out is 50 cents (or less) and they have the nerve to price it at 250$ USD.

 

[Frankfurter]

the problem with DPLII is that you need a DPLII receiver. If you have a receiver with optical in, it will support DTS and DD. So you're covered for 360 and PS3. But not all receivers have DPLII. Mine doesn't, but I'm happy with it otherwise so I'm damned if I'm going to replace it just for nintendo games. But I'm pissed that I won't get surround sound from them.

Well, your receiver should atleast support DPLI, so that's better than nothing I guess.

 

[Here Be Dragons]

An analog signal has no bitrate. And, like I said, some people might be able to tell the difference, but most people can't. And, as long as most people use cheap, shitty surround systems, everything sounds like crap - doesn't matter if it's DPLII or DD.

HOLY SHIT! :lol :lol :lol

 

[SnakeXs]

Anyone pitching damage control for Nintendo over this is simply sad. Any receiver that does DPLII already does DD5.1. The saddest thing of all is that an optical out is 50 cents (or less) and they have the nerve to price it at 250$ USD.

Not to damage control at all (I already went off on Nintendo's ****ing hate of sound long ago), but Wii just may not have the juice to do in game 5.1. Xbox had a superomgspecial sound chip for that, no? That's something that Nintendo sure wouldn't do.

That said, as Stinkles touched on, real 5.1 with the Wii speaker and control is a ****ing match made in heaven and it's sickening that Nintendo thinks of sound so ****ing little. And, no, PLII is not great. It's good. Barely passable. It cowers in the face of true surround sound.

 

[Dragona Akehi]

Not to damage control at all (I already went off on Nintendo's ****ing hate of sound long ago), but Wii just may not have the juice to do in game 5.1. Xbox had a superomgspecial sound chip for that, no? That's something that Nintendo sure wouldn't do.

That said, as Stinkles touched on, real 5.1 with the Wii speaker and control is a ****ing match made in heaven and it's sickening that Nintendo thinks of sound so ****ing little. And, no, PLII is not great. It's good. Barely passable. It cowers in the face of true surround sound.

Even if they still went with (crappy) DPLII, it sounds quite a bit better if its piped through an optical out. And of course Wii probably doesn't have enough juice, but that's part of the problem in my opinion.

 

[wsippel]

Anyone pitching damage control for Nintendo over this is simply sad. Any receiver that does DPLII already does DD5.1. The saddest thing of all is that an optical out is 50 cents (or less) and they have the nerve to price it at 250$ USD.

They'd also need a different audio DSP. Nintendo actually uses a real, dedicated DSP for audio, with hardware mixing, dedicated memory, built-in effects (designed for DPLII) and stuff. Not a big deal in theory, there are quite a few DSPs with DD5.1 support, but the difference would be more than $0.50.

 

[Dragona Akehi]

They'd also need a different audio DSP. Nintendo actually uses a real, dedicated DSP for audio, with hardware mixing, dedicated memory, built-in effects (designed for DPLII) and stuff. Not a big deal in theory, there are quite a few DSPs with DD5.1 support, but the difference would be more than $0.50.

See my post above. Even if they stayed with crappy DPLII it would sound much better with optical. You might hear sound artifacts, due to crappy sound mixers, but that's better than distortion or interference.

 

[MidgarBlowedUp]

Pro Logic II can sound really good if it is encoded properly and decoded with a good decoder. That's the thing people forget to mention; Yes, PLII and PLI can take a normal stereo signal and fake(fart) a 5.1 sound, but encoded PLII actually sounds a lot closer to DD5.1. There is nothing wrong with PLII, and the decoders/encoders just getting better and better. It still isn't DD5.1 or DTS, but it's close enough for the averag joe, and/or nintard. I think PLII sounds fine, but I'm using a Pioneer VSX-1016TX PLIIx THX-2 reciever matched up with a nice new Velodyne 7.1 speaker system. You could fart in mono and it would sound pretty good through my setup. And that's the thing about Pro Logic, you really need a good decoder for it to sound great. Sort of like farts, with the right ass they can do massive damage.

 

[alr1ght]

has it been said what exactly was changed from the GC hardware to the Wii, other than shrinking it? It seems they added no features at all to the hardware. Not having an optical out on any type of video hardware in 2006 is just baffling.

 

[Dragona Akehi]

has it been said what exactly was changed from the GC hardware to the Wii, other than shrinking it? It seems they added no features at all to the hardware. Not having an optical out on any type of video hardware in 2006 is just baffling.

Well, if you think about it, Nintendo's entire Wii strategy is pretty baffling in itself.

 

[S. L.]

PLII sounds ok, but if you compare it directly to dd, dd sounds much clearer and spatial (correct word?)

oh and PLI is horrible joke ;P

 

[Jing_Ke]

Anyone pitching damage control for Nintendo over this is simply sad. Any receiver that does DPLII already does DD5.1. The saddest thing of all is that an optical out is 50 cents (or less) and they have the nerve to price it at 250$ USD.

Not my problem, bitches

 

[wsippel]

has it been said what exactly was changed from the GC hardware to the Wii, other than shrinking it? It seems they added no features at all to the hardware. Not having an optical out on any type of video hardware in 2006 is just baffling.

If I read the fmod changelogs correctly, the audio DSP for example is very similar, but not identical (additional effect slots it seems). The CPU seems to have a twice as large die, so it's almost certainly not a shrinked, overclocked Gekko. And Nintendo increased the RAM, Wii uses 88MB to 104MB high-speed RAM (depending on who you ask) versus 24MB high-speed and 16MB slow RAM. The GPU is still a complete mystery.

 

[Bluemercury]

Anyone pitching damage control for Nintendo over this is simply sad. Any receiver that does DPLII already does DD5.1. The saddest thing of all is that an optical out is 50 cents (or less) and they have the nerve to price it at 250$ USD.

So let me see, you cant distinguish next gen explosions for old gen one,s but you can clearly see or hear diferences between the various sound outputs???
hummmm

 

[S. L.]

eyes != ears ?

 

[Dragona Akehi]

So let me see, you cant distinguish next gen explosions for old gen one,s but you can clearly see or hear diferences between the various sound outputs???
hummmm

Actually yes, I'm incredibly picky about my sound. Very much an audiophile. Ironic, isn't it?

Spoiler

(They do say that other senses get heightened when one is blind...)

 

[Leatherface]

I believe this spin belongs in the "DS trails PSP" thread ;b

lol so true.


Wtf nintendo?!

 

[Jing_Ke]

Actually yes, I'm incredibly picky about my sound. Very much an audiophile. Ironic, isn't it?

Well that can't be true

 

[Dragona Akehi]

Well that can't be true

Hush, you.

 

[Chao]

Actually yes, I'm incredibly picky about my sound. Very much an audiophile. Ironic, isn't it?

Spoiler

(They do say that other senses get heightened when one is blind...)

I mean, Dragona is like that TEH SENTINEL guy.

I have liek teh supersenses bitches!

Do you remember that series?

Oh never mind...

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Not even PL2x? I wonder if that's more up to the programers than the hardware..

I have to imagine so. The alternative would seem to be hardware that detects an attempt at PL2x and blocks it. :lol I have to imagine that considering the minority that would actually be using a PL2-capable system, PL2x-capable 7.1 systems are even more rare. So the developer must ask himself whether it's worth bothering to try and support it when there are already perfectly good PL2 tools left from GameCube.

I'm totally not an audio guy, so enlighten me: If you can get surround sound this way, why does it matter if it's not "true" surround? What's the major difference between this and any other way of doing it?

It's... less good. In the past I've made a so-so comparison to anamorphic widescreen. In that case, a 16:9 image is output as a 4:3 image, which the television can then stretch back to a 16:9 image. It's widescreen, but certainly not as good as actually being able to use more pixels for width. Similarly, ProLogic II stretches out 5 channels from 2, which can be decent, but can't possibly be as good as actually just having the 5 channels separate to begin with.

I recently got a ProLogic II receiver, an upgrade from a receiver so cheapy it only supported original ProLogic, but without even the official logo. I haven't used it in a great many games, but with the Rogue Leader sound test I can clearly hear the Tie hitting the various speakers, so it's doing something right. As I said, though, my previous setup was so shitty that I'm not exactly accustomed to what truly decent surround sound can really do.

So does this mean if you have a 5.1 system, and you play on a Wii, there will be a few unused speakers or something?

More it depends on whether your 5.1 system supports ProLogic II, but I imagine it's been pretty common for the last 5 years or so.

Just to think that the 5 year old XBox has DD 5.1 and the Wii doesn't. Stop being cheap Nintendo and just add it already. You skimped on the graphics big time, at least go all out with the sound.

*quick discussion between Nintendo engineers Ricardo and Keizo*
Ricardo: Let's make the new system not a very big graphics leap. This will make things cheap and easy.
Keizo: Sounds good.
Ricardo: AND allow us to max out the sound capabilities!
Keizo: Brilliant!

Was it just me or did everyone have a nightmare hooking up the GC to a surround sound receiver? at least in the UK anyway. Basically getting hold of a A/V lead for the GC that actually had a L/R audio input for a audio cable to go into from it to my sound system. There was like one ever made and it took me a while to actually find one well after i had bought my sound system...wonder what the Wii one is like?

You had troubles getting standard left/right audio cables hooked into a sound system? I don't think I understand fully what you're saying.

Pro Logic 2 is ok, but I really wish they had used DD5.1. I've noticed that Pro Logic 2 quality varies a lot, because it's software-based. Some amps work very well with it, and some sound dreadful. Mine is somewhere in the middle. GC PL2 games sounded ok but tbh there is no difference between:

GC set to PL2 and receiver set to auto (which detects it's PL2, and switches automatically)
GC set to stereo sound, and receiver set to PL2

*shrug*
I haven't noticed that, really. Some games, like Rogue Leader, didn't list a separate surround sound mode; Stereo was just ProLogic II by default. The other game I've really tested out with my new setup is Super Mario Sunshine, and I can tell the difference there between the Stereo and Surround choices.

 

[Scrow]

of all the decisions Nintendo has made in regards to the Wii this is the most disappointing for me.

 

[666]

It's because they've got Phil Spector on their board now. BACK TO MONO!!!

 

[radioheadrule83]

of all the decisions Nintendo has made in regards to the Wii this is the most disappointing for me.

Same here.

I've always been willing to do without HD on a Nintendo console. I think if any company can still pull off such a system with a slew of great and desirable games its Nintendo. Its more affordable for it, I like what I'm seeing (GUI, Wifi/VC/etc, games), the controller looks sweet... I feel like I'm getting a perfectly good deal, and only hope I enjoy it as much as I have my DS.

But this is just kind of... ass. My £30 DVD player does DTS and DD, my £180 Wii won't. So the two mistakes I think are just pointlessly stupid from Nintendo so far? No DVD playback even though the media is some subset of DVD tech, no surround sound.

 

[Mithos Yggdrasill]

has it been said what exactly was changed from the GC hardware to the Wii, other than shrinking it? It seems they added no features at all to the hardware. Not having an optical out on any type of video hardware in 2006 is just baffling.

Well, it could be a way to sell more "hounted" Gamecubes with a Wiimote incorporated.
So, if Wii will sell 40 millions as analysts say, we must not say that "Wii sold 40 millions and Gamecube only 21 millions", but we must say that Gamecube sold 61 millions: it is the same Hardware !!! :lol

 

[PantherLotus]

Gameplay > sound

Graphics + Sound + Art + Control + Fun = Gameplay?

 

[Azelover]

Well, it could be a way to sell more "hounted" Gamecubes with a Wiimote incorporated.
So, if Wii will sell 40 millions as analysts say, we must not say that "Wii sold 40 millions and Gamecube only 21 millions", but we must say that Gamecube sold 61 millions: it is the same Hardware !!! :lol

lol, it's a different console, the hardware is an improvement aswell. As far as this discussion goes I'm pretty sure it won't bother me, although it would have been nice to have a more powerful system all around I can see where they want the focus to be. In America the Wii will have a good launch and then afterwards Reggie and co. will have a pretty hard time with it like they did with DS perhaps even more so, while Europe and Japan will get it more easily.

I feel like Wii isn't for the American mindset, it isn't designed around it, it isn't named for it and it isn't meant for it, it's gonna be a hard sell for NOA through and through. Doesn't mean it's not gonna get great games, particularly if it takes off in Europe and Japan, but it's gonna take the best games to push it in the US. If Nintendo gets the software in place I think worldwide the Wii could sell far more than 40 million, but in America it's just gonna do the Gamecube numbers at best, which isn't all that bad at this point. I really think this technical debate on the Wii is kinda pointless, the Wii is meant to be more practical than technical, what is so bad about non-surround sound in practical terms would be the right way to discuss this I think.

 

[bycha]

Same here.

I've always been willing to do without HD on a Nintendo console. I think if any company can still pull off such a system with a slew of great and desirable games its Nintendo. Its more affordable for it, I like what I'm seeing (GUI, Wifi/VC/etc, games), the controller looks sweet... I feel like I'm getting a perfectly good deal, and only hope I enjoy it as much as I have my DS.

But this is just kind of... ass. My £30 DVD player does DTS and DD, my £180 Wii won't. So the two mistakes I think are just pointlessly stupid from Nintendo so far? No DVD playback even though the media is some subset of DVD tech, no surround sound.

Ye £30 DVD needs to just pass the signal. Ye £180 Wii will have to get sounds, mix them and then code it into DD all in real time. That's the difference right there.


It would be nice to know how many ppl actually play with surround.

 

[plagiarize]

here's a genuine question.

where do the patents stand on this?

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Ye £30 DVD needs to just pass the signal. Ye £180 Wii will have to get sounds, mix them and then code it into DD all in real time. That's the difference right there.

Right. Not that it's not a clear sign of Wii's technical inferiority to the other consoles, but a cheapo DVD player could also present photorealistic imagery that would make the PS3 cry.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Toslink output may be 50 cents but dedicated DD 5.1 encoding is probably (literally) a few bucks at this point. Why didn't they just drop in the DD 5.1 encoding chip from Xbox 1? Because doing it the same way as Gamecube was free and automatically backwards compatible, that's why.

 

[MidgarBlowedUp]

Spoiler

(They do say that other senses get heightened when one is blind...)

Spoiler

You must be wild one in bed

 

[MidgarBlowedUp]

Similarly, ProLogic II stretches out 5 channels from 2

Not exactly correct.
Encoded Pro Logic 2 sound doesn't work that way. From what I understand, the source material is using phase cancellation and phase shifting that the decoder is able to recognize and then readjusts the phase to extract the 4.1 sound, then it gets upmixed to 5.1. Working with phase is totally different from compressing an audio signal.

If encoded and decoded properly, or well, PLII has good channel seperation and can sound very good.

 

[Red Eyed Soul]

Lol, someone please explain to a non-techie guy like me exactly wtf all of this means.

DPLII = you hear sparks hitting the floor in unison all around you.
DD 5.1 = you hear individual sparks hitting the floor at different times all around you.

 

[StevieP]

DPLII = you hear sparks hitting the floor in unison all around you.
DD 5.1 = you hear individual sparks hitting the floor at different times all around you.

Read the post above yours. Or get Rogue leader and listen for yourself.

 

[Red Eyed Soul]

Read the post above yours. Or get Rogue leader and listen for yourself.

Actually that was just sarcasm....and i already beat it 3 times....dont feel like getting it again...

 

[QuickKick89]

"Well, if you think about it, Nintendo's entire Wii strategy is pretty baffling in itself. "

Amen. A smaller GameCube with a remote control and a GC port at launch for $50 more. I happen to remember another company that did stuff like this. They were called Sega.