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[Yoshiya]

Its entirely possible for a 360 like Processor being used in devkits right now. Trinity wont be hitting the market until like First half 2012.

Why would they send out PPC devkits for x86 hardware? That makes no sense.

 

[Beth Cyra]

As it stands it's just much easier to believe this thing will be around Xbox 360 power level.

Honestly I can't imagine Nintendo will have a chip in it that won't even debute until next year, that would be some incredibly tech, I just don't see Nintendo going for it.

Would be happy to be wrong though.

 

[m3k]

hay guys i would like a pm too

...

also

i dont see nintendo doubling the power of the 360, we'll be lucky if it is actually slightly more powerful than a 360 and even then trust nintendo to have something which gimps the system just a little below some of the abilities of the 360 or ps3

 

[antonz]

Why would you send out PPC devkits for x86 hardware? That makes no sense.

I was more referring to a Tri Core etc then a specific model of chip. I really don't put much stock in the French discussion right now because outside of the controller stuff everything else is admittedly speculation.


As far back as 2009 actually it was reported Nintendo was talking with AMD about using their Fusion APU technology for 2011/2012

 

[EatChildren]

I was more referring to a Tri Core etc then a specific model of chip. I really don't put much stock in the French discussion right now because outside of the controller stuff everything else is admittedly speculation.

I thought they said that while they were speculating on the GPU and RAM, they were adamant that the CPU was a PowerPC?

TruePrime makes another good point; Trinity wont launch until next year, which would put the Wii 2 as housing absolutely cutting edge technology.

It just seems a bit too far fetched. This, to me, all screams "expensive cutting edge technology", and I really cannot see Nintendo doing that.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

I thought they said that while they were speculating on the GPU and RAM, they were adamant that the CPU was a PowerPC?

TruePrime makes another good point; Trinity wont launch until next year, which would put the Wii 2 as housing absolutely cutting edge technology.

It just seems a bit too far fetched. This, to me, all screams "expensive cutting edge technology", and I really cannot see Nintendo doing that.

Cutting edge yes, but it's not necessarily "expensive", it's an integrated chipset presumably to save on power and silicone, and is not necessarily costly. I also question the implicit assumption of your post that Nintendo isn't willing to use cutting edge technology when they think it is appropriate. Certianly they don't use cutting edge tech for the sake of it, but if they see an advantage to be had by using it (especially if this new tech allows them to make the low cost low draw machine they probably want to make) I'm sure they will.

 

[antonz]

I thought they said that while they were speculating on the GPU and RAM, they were adamant that the CPU was a PowerPC?

TruePrime makes another good point; Trinity wont launch until next year, which would put the Wii 2 as housing absolutely cutting edge technology.

It just seems a bit too far fetched. This, to me, all screams "expensive cutting edge technology", and I really cannot see Nintendo doing that.

While it will be new technology trinity itself is only going to be a middle of the road chip intended to replace the Llano line. Its not intended for high end computers etc. Komodo fills that role with its 8 Cores standard.

 

[Mr_Brit]

Trinity is far from cutting edge, the Bulldozer cores its using are coming out around June this year so by Early 2012 will have been out for 6+months. Just because its scheduled for 2012 doesn't mean its cutting edge as AMD may simply have delayed it for marketing, competition, manufacturing or yield reasons. Cutting edge would be using Ivy Bridge or whatever comes after Bulldozer.

Edit: It is as Antonz above me said, AMD have just released Llano so won't want to be competing with themselves, I'm sure if they had to they could release trinity this June alongside Bulldozer.

 

[EatChildren]

Interesting. Thanks for the thoughts guys.

 

[Mr. Pointy]

I thought they said that while they were speculating on the GPU and RAM, they were adamant that the CPU was a PowerPC?

TruePrime makes another good point; Trinity wont launch until next year, which would put the Wii 2 as housing absolutely cutting edge technology.

It just seems a bit too far fetched. This, to me, all screams "expensive cutting edge technology", and I really cannot see Nintendo doing that.

Trinity is going to be part of AMD's budget/mainstream CPU line though. It's basically 1 or 2 Bulldozer modules and a mid-tier graphics core. It'll be cheap as fuck.

 

[Mr_Brit]

Trinity is going to be part of AMD's budget/mainstream CPU line though. It's basically 1 or 2 Bulldozer modules and a mid-tier graphics core. It'll be cheap as fuck.

I'm sure they can scale the number of cores and SP up or down depending on what Nintendo want.

 

[ZiggyRoXx]

Trinity is far from cutting edge, the Bulldozer cores its using are coming out around June this year so by Early 2012 will have been out for 6+months. Just because its scheduled for 2012 doesn't mean its cutting edge

But your forgetting Nintendo's business plan.....dress up mature (cheap) tech in a shiny new case with some gimmicky USP and sell with huge profit margin.

The 3DS is the latest example of it....

It's dull, boring and conservative, but that's Nintendo for you, the days of looking to Nintendo to push forward console tech are long gone.

 

[antonz]

I'm sure they can scale the number of cores and SP up or down depending on what Nintendo want.

Yeah right now AMD is reporting Trinity will be a 2-4 Core Chip+GPU. The GPU reports conflict people have said it will be 5000 series but Wikipedia reports it will be a midrange 6000 series.

But your forgetting Nintendo's business plan.....dress up mature (cheap) tech in a shiny new case with some gimmicky USP and sell with huge profit margin.

The 3DS is the latest example of it....

It's dull, boring and conservative, but that's Nintendo for you, the days of looking to Nintendo to push forward console tech are long gone.

The 3DS is about the most powerful hardware you could fit possible in the form factor they are using and still have more than 5 minutes of battery life. Hell the NGP fairs just as bad having only identical battery life to the 3DS yet the battery in the NGP is probably the size of the 3DS as a whole.

Handheld technology will always be hampered by the power source technology. Nintendo could have obviously made a NGP size device and upped the specs but thats not the design decisions Nintendo set out on. The NGP will require man purses to be carried around practically.

 

[Eteric Rice]

Summary:
AMD is working on a CPU that will be used for a Console launching late 2012.

Likely candidate is the AMD Chip Codenamed Trinity.

Trinity is a 2-4 Core Chip based on the new Bulldozer Core technology that also has a GPU which is most likely around the 5770 in performance built in.

As of right now only 1 Game console is scheduled for a reported Fall 2012 Launch so unless something drastic changes the information would seemingly lead to the fact it has to be the Wii 2

And what kind of technology would we be talking, here? How much of a performance boost from what we have now?

I'm concerned about dev costs. For me, graphics have reached a point where it's kind of hard to make a shitty looking game. Will this raise costs much?

 

[MadOdorMachine]

I was more referring to a Tri Core etc then a specific model of chip. I really don't put much stock in the French discussion right now because outside of the controller stuff everything else is admittedly speculation.


As far back as 2009 actually it was reported Nintendo was talking with AMD about using their Fusion APU technology for 2011/2012

Link? I refuse to believe this is going to be a huge leap in power over the PS3/360 beiing that IGN are the ones who said that and they've been all over the place with rumors. The French site that leaked the NGP specs are the ones saying it's a 3 core PPC cpu.

I thought they said that while they were speculating on the GPU and RAM, they were adamant that the CPU was a PowerPC?

TruePrime makes another good point; Trinity wont launch until next year, which would put the Wii 2 as housing absolutely cutting edge technology.

It just seems a bit too far fetched. This, to me, all screams "expensive cutting edge technology", and I really cannot see Nintendo doing that.

I agree with you that it hasn't been Nintendo's style to go cutting edge for awhile, but they have in the past and they were the first on the market with the glasses-less screen for 3DS. It isn't out of the realm of possibility, but I think it's unlikely.

 

[Mr_Brit]

And what kind of technology would we be talking, here? How much of a performance boost from what we have now?

I'm concerned about dev costs. For me, graphics have reached a point where it's kind of hard to make a shitty looking game. Will this raise costs much?

Games shouldn't cost any more than they do now, base assets are created at much higher quality than you get in game so devs can easily scale their assets up or down depending on platform. Combine that with the fact that Nintendo will probably make 1080p 'mandatory'(in the sense that 720p is the defacto resolution for the 360/PS3) which means that devs don't need to work as hard on graphics as such a high resolution will limit what they can do compared to working at 720p so you shouldn't see any production cost increases.

 

[antonz]

Link? I refuse to believe this is going to be a huge leap in power over the PS3/360 beiing that IGN are the ones who said that and they've been all over the place with rumors. The French site that leaked the NGP specs are the ones saying it's a 3 core PPC cpu.


I agree with you that it hasn't been Nintendo's style to go cutting edge for awhile, but they have in the past and they were the first on the market with the glasses-less screen for 3DS. It isn't out of the realm of possibility, but I think it's unlikely.

The French site that leaked the NGP specs didn't dick around and guess on parts for the NGP. They bullet pointed every single feature and spec including model numbers of parts etc.

Thats the problem now because they got access to the devkits of the NGP anything they say is accepted as truth. Hell they say we have no clue what ram the Wii 2 has. Suddenly half the internet is reporting French site says X is confirmed.

At this point the French sites speculation doesn't even add up to their speculated power. The R700 line shits all over the 360/PS3.

 

[ZiggyRoXx]

The 3DS is about the most powerful hardware you could fit possible in the form factor they are using and still have more than 5 minutes of battery life. Hell the NGP fairs just as bad having only identical battery life to the 3DS yet the battery in the NGP is probably the size of the 3DS as a whole.

Handheld technology will always be hampered by the power source technology. Nintendo could have obviously made a NGP size device and upped the specs but thats not the design decisions Nintendo set out on. The NGP will require man purses to be carried around practically.

Yes, valid points, but my point was, would Nintendo ever be persuaded to launch something as cutting edge as the NGP?.

It's just not their way anymore...the tech inside the 3ds is based on a near 5yr old , end of life, mobile GPU that never had much success in the market it was built for, so no doubt they picked up the license to use it in the 3ds for peanuts.

A solid, profitable business plan from launch day, is Nintendo's way now, unlike MS and Sony who are willing to absorb losses for a few years after launch.

 

[[Nintex]]

I don't think Nintendo will go with Trinity or Bulldozer. Not because those chips are 'cutting edge' but because I doubt that they'll bet their entire console launch on the availability of a single part. The GameCube hardware was finished in 2000 or so and they changed some clockspeeds etc. up untill the 2001 launch but the overall chip design was finished a year earlier. If AMD runs into production problems with the Trinity/Bulldozer(low yields for example) and that is very likely to happen with those new chips than Nintendo can't launch their console. If they want to ship enough units for a holiday 2012 launch production would have to be well underway during the summer or perhaps even spring. So to me it seems impossible that Nintendo will pick a chip design that isn't ready for use untill the end of 2012 given AMD's history with delays. it already takes months to move from a finished AMD/Nvidia GPU to the first shipment of a graphics card which are often called 'paper launches' for a reason.

A custom AMD part using the Fusion tech is certainly possible(that's pretty much what the Xbox 360 Slim is) and it would solve plenty of problems regarding heat and power efficiency.

 

[MadOdorMachine]

The French site that leaked the NGP specs didn't dick around and guess on parts for the NGP. They bullet pointed every single feature and spec including model numbers of parts etc.

Thats the problem now because they got access to the devkits of the NGP anything they say is accepted as truth. Hell they say we have no clue what ram the Wii 2 has. Suddenly half the internet is reporting French site says X is confirmed.

At this point the French sites speculation doesn't even add up to their speculated power. The R700 line shits all over the 360/PS3.

Reminds me of people saying the NVidia Tegra would power the 3DS. Either way, just don't see Nintendo going this bleeding edge. I would love for them to, but it's a little hard to swallow.

 

[Mr_Brit]

I don't think Nintendo will go with Trinity or Bulldozer. Not because of that it's cutting edge but because I doubt that they'll bet their entire console launch on the availability of a single part. The GameCube hardware was finished in 2000 or so and they changed some clockspeeds etc. up untill the 2001 launch but the overall chip design was finished a year earlier. If AMD runs into production problems with the Trinity/Bulldozer(low yields for example) and that is very likely to happen with those new chips than Nintendo can't launch their console. If they want to ship enough units for a holiday 2012 launch production would have to be well underway during the summer or perhaps even spring. So to me it seems impossible that Nintendo will pick a chip design that isn't ready for use untill the end of 2012 given AMD's history with delays. it already takes months to move from a finished AMD/Nvidia GPU to the first shipment of a graphics card which are often called 'paper launches' for a reason.

meh, if they use 32nm like I think they will then they won't have any supply problems as by late 2012, 32nm will be widely available and have massive supply capability.

 

[Gahiggidy]

Why are we listening to IGN anyway? Didn't they totally fudge the 3DS specs?

I go with whatever source makes Nintendo look the best. That's my rule.

 

[[Nintex]]

meh, if they use 32nm like I think they will then they won't have any supply problems as by late 2012, 32nm will be widely available and have massive supply capability.

I doubt they'd go for either the Trinity or the Bulldozer. If I look at AMD's Fusion line-up I'd say a modified LIano is a much more likely candidate. 32nm too and they just shipped the laptop line the desktop versions will arrive in July.

 

[Scrow]

So in other words... four Gamecubes?

the gamecube standard should be how computer processing power is measured from now on.

"oh wow, the PS5 has a 14GC processor!"

 

[Mr. Pointy]

Llano (AMD K10.5 cores) would still shit on the current in-order PPC chips the 360/PS3, CELL is a bit different of course. It would also be easier to manufacture as well; say it's a 3-core CPU as an example, they could essentially manufacture them all as 4-cores and shut one down to increase yields. A Trinity APU would require 2 working Bulldozer modules out of the box.

It would need a boost in the GPU department though.

 

[Wazzim]

I doubt they'd go for either the Trinity or the Bulldozer. If I look at AMD's Fusion line-up I'd say a modified LIano is a much more likely candidate. 32nm too and they just shipped the laptop line the desktop versions will arrive in July.

Isn't the Fusion tech suited for desktop browsing instead of gaming?

 

[Mr_Brit]

Llano (AMD K10.5 cores) would still shit on the current in-order PPC chips the 360/PS3, CELL is a bit different of course. It would also be easier to manufacture as well; say it's a 3-core CPU as an example, they could essentially manufacture them all as 4-cores and shut one down to increase yields. A Trinity APU would require 2 working Bulldozer modules out of the box.

It would need a boost in the GPU department though.

Llano yields by 2012 should be nearly 100% it would be a mistake to shut a core off.

Isn't the Fusion tech suited for desktop browsing instead of gaming?

Fusion is best suited for laptops(Llano) and netbooks(Bobcat).

 

[Phonomezer]

If Nintendo are pricing themselves into the PS480 bracket, and launch a year early, their tech will be weaker sooner right?

Not necessarily, look at the Xbox 360.

If they don't launch this holiday, I suspect they will launch next Feb. And like the 3DS, they will use early adopters to iron out kinks in their online service before pushing hard holiday 2012, when, hopefully, the next Xbox and Playstation launch.

 

[Gahiggidy]

I'm betting that the cost of the cpu/gpu combo costs no more than $150. Probably closer to $100. What kind of performance can you get from that range by 2012? My reasoning is that I bet Nintendo is aiming for $299 launch price. They've never sold anything, that I know of, over $300 bucks.

For comparison, iSuppli did a detailed cost breakdown on the Xbox 360 when it launched and found the cpu/gpu combo to cost Microsoft $247:

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/multimedia/display/20051123214405.html

 

[EatChildren]

I'm betting that the cost of the cpu/gpu combo costs no more than $150. Probably closer to $100. What kind of performance can you get from that range by 2012? My reasoning is that I bet Nintendo is aiming for $299 launch price. They've never sold anything, that I know of, over $300 bucks.

For comparison, iSuppli did a detailed cost breakdown on the Xbox 360 when it launched and found the cpu/gpu combo to cost Microsoft $247:

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/multimedia/display/20051123214405.html

Yeah, people do need to factor in that whatever hardware Nintendo will go for, they will want to sell at a profit straight out of the gate, unlike Microsoft and Sony who were quite happy to sell at a loss in favour of beefier hardware.

 

[Mr_Brit]

Yeah, people do need to factor in that whatever hardware Nintendo will go for, they will want to sell at a profit straight out of the gate, unlike Microsoft and Sony who were quite happy to sell at a loss in favour of beefier hardware.

Something like trinity won't cost more than $100 by late 2012. In fact, all of the rumoured hardware wouldn't cost more than $150 by 2012 so no matter what Nintendo go for, they'll be profitable from launch.

 

[Donnie]

The only info in the PM is the original source. The actual relevent information, that the Wii 2 is likely using AMD's Fusion APU is in the OP and is what should be discussed.

Its a bit too vague for anyone who hasn't seen the specific info to discuss IMO, interesting though.

 

[brain_stew]

I find it odd that the speculated GPU is a dual powered energy hog. If anything wouldn't devs be using the 6 series AMD cards since they provide great/er performance with the a smaller energy usage profile?

The speculated GPU in the op is a single integrated CPU/GPU chip (or APU), its built from the ground up to maximise efficiencey.

As for how this matches up with the French rumour of PowerPC cores, well it could be the same same design from the internal GPU to cache structures, to memory controllers yet simply integrate PowerPC cores instead of x86 cores. Choosing which off the shelf CPU core to use in a design like this isn't the hard part, all the fine grained integration and on-chip communication is. AMD and IBM have already collaborated on a project just like this with the latest iteration of the Xbox 360's silicon, which has an AMD GPU and PowerPc cores integrated on the same die.

If its derived from Trinity then its either a 640sp or 800sp GPU which will absolutely decimate the 360 in graphics assuming its supplied with enough memory bandwidth.

 

[freddy]

So if I was a rep from AMD and wanted to know who the source was all I'd have to do was ask on here for a pm and the guy would be fired anyway?

 

[Log4Girlz]

The speculated GPU in the op is a single integrated CPU/GPU chip (or APU), its built from the ground up to maximise efficiencey.

As for how this matches up with the French rumour of PowerPC cores, well it could be the same same design from the internal GPU to cache structures, to memory controllers yet simply integrate PowerPC cores instead of x86 cores. Choosing which off the shelf CPU core to use in a design like this isn't the hard part, all the fine grained integration and on-chip communication is. AMD and IBM have already collaborated on a project just like this with the latest iteration of the Xbox 360's silicon, which has an AMD GPU and PowerPc cores integrated on the same die.

If its derived from Trinity then its either a 640sp or 800sp GPU which will absolutely decimate the 360 in graphics assuming its supplied with enough memory bandwidth.

How many did the 360 have, 48 right?

 

[brain_stew]

How many did the 360 have, 48 right?

Its 192 by AMD's current naming scheme but those are first generation unified shaders, they're not directly comparable (read: much worse) to AMD's 4th/5th generation unified shader tech.

 

[szaromir]

Its 192 by AMD's current naming scheme but those are first generation unified shaders, they're not directly comparable (read: much worse) to AMD's 4th/5th generation unified shader tech.

The bottom line is pure processing power - Xenos has 240GFLOPs, Radeon 5770 has 1360GFLOPs. 6 times as powerful and it's a cheap old GPU by now. Hardware manufacturers have no excuse not to beef up hardware significantly above 360/PS3 levels.

 

[Mr_Brit]

The bottom line is pure processing power - Xenos has 240GFLOPs, Radeon 5770 has 1360GFLOPs. 6 times as powerful and it's a cheap old GPU by now. Hardware manufacturers have no excuse not to beef up hardware significantly above 360/PS3 levels.

I really can't see Nintendo using something like a 4870/5770, although relative to other GPUs it's low power/heat, Nintendo will want something much cheaper/lower power/cooler so I think they'll use a 56XX instead of 57XX+ part which will be able to run better than 360 titles at 1080p.

 

[Dennis]

The bottom line is pure processing power - Xenos has 240GFLOPs, Radeon 5770 has 1360GFLOPs. 6 times as powerful and it's a cheap old GPU by now. Hardware manufacturers have no excuse not to beef up hardware significantly above 360/PS3 levels.

Its Nintendo

 

[szaromir]

I really can't see Nintendo using something like a 4870/5770, although relative to other GPUs it's low power/heat, Nintendo will want something much cheaper/lower power/cooler so I think they'll use a 56XX instead of 57XX+ part which will be able to run better than 360 titles at 1080p.

I don't think they'll use 2009 processors at all. I'm just saying about the orders of magnitude, what's currently possible (and expected to scale even further in future).

 

[Mr_Brit]

Does anyone have any ideas on what type/amount of RAM Nintendo will/should go for?

 

[Mr_Brit]

I don't think they'll use 2009 processors at all. I'm just saying about the orders of magnitude, what's currently possible (and expected to scale even further in future).

Whatever series of GPU(5000/6000/maybe even 7000) Nintendo will probably go for something that has equal power draw/heat to the 56XX line of GPUs.

 

[jonremedy]

A gigabyte or more of GDDR5 would be nice...

 

[szaromir]

Whatever series of GPU(5000/6000/maybe even 7000) Nintendo will probably go for something that has equal power draw/heat to the 56XX line of GPUs.

Yeah, but even 56xx is at 40nm(?), I think 28nm will be common manufacturing process in late 2012. IMO going below 1TFLOPs GPU would be laughing the customer in the face

 

[Mr_Brit]

Yeah, but even 56xx is at 40nm(?), I think 28nm will be common manufacturing process in late 2012. IMO going below 1TFLOPs GPU would be laughing the customer in the face

I don't think you've met Nintendo have you?

 

[DonMigs85]

For feasible 1080p with similar graphics quality to today's 720p games it would need at least an 8-10 Gigapixels/sec fillrate I think.

 

[szaromir]

I don't think you've met Nintendo have you?

I have. I just don't think they won't to repeat the situation where all the blockbusters are either completely missing from their platform (Assassin's Creed etc) or can't be played properly (COD, FIFA etc.), they have to make sure their hardware scales well with competition, even if there won't be parity at all.

 

[AceBandage]

So if I was a rep from AMD and wanted to know who the source was all I'd have to do was ask on here for a pm and the guy would be fired anyway?

There's really nothing in the PM that says anything we don't know. It's just a bit more detailed.

 

[Fafalada]

When sticking whatever speculated-hw inside a box, what do people actually expect in terms of form-factor/heat/noise from a Wii sucessor?
Something big-ass as 360 or PS3 or 2xDVD size box with little or no active cooling?

 

[AceBandage]

When sticking whatever speculated-hw inside a box, what do people actually expect in terms of form-factor/heat/noise from a Wii sucessor?
Something big-ass as 360 or PS3 or 2xDVD size box with little or no active cooling?

With any modern GPU, they would NEED some kind of larger cooling system. So it'll be bigger than the Wii, easily.