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Why did GAF have such militant sub-communities develop?

Renna Hazel

Member
If you really do not believe that there are both sides of extremes out there I can not help ypu. Example?


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So yes both sides. It is incredible how people can even think that there is no a good and evil side...

Oh and if you do not know who these people are. Google helps. They are pretty known in a feministc world
There are always extreme sides to every argument, the difference here is that people like this aren't making laws. These individuals are definitely stupid but they hardly have the same impact as legal discrimination.
 

shpankey

not an idiot
I have to say though, that extreme example quoted is quite disturbing. Is there any pushback/backlash for those people? That is just... man. The stuff about any white women with white baby's needing to abort makes me want to give up on humanity. :(

The heinous right stuff and the heinous left stuff, why do the rest of us in the world get caught in the middle of these two vocal minorities waging their insanity wars. Ugh. Excuse me while I go vomit for a bit.
 
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Dunki

Member
There are always extreme sides to every argument, the difference here is that people like this aren't making laws. These individuals are definitely stupid but they hardly have the same impact as legal discrimination.
these examples are not small numbers. Some of them are journalists and writer for the Vogue and teenvogue. Another one is a bigger name in the whole feminist movement and they all are verrified on twitter even after twitter has changed their standards and rules which sadly only the right wing group has to endure and not all shitty people. To see these tweets and just sayig these are a just a few on the "other" side is really downplaying this thing.

Again there is a good argument to be made and which has proven hrough history that every side has shitty people and extremists. Anoterh one would be Lindar Sarasour which wanted to circumsize another women for not agreeing with her views. Or the praising of Sharia etc. And this Person was the lead figure of Women's March 2018. So yeah....
 
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Renna Hazel

Member
these examples are not small numbers. Some of them are journalists and writer for the Vogue and teenvogue. Another one is a bigger name in the whole feminist movement and they all are verrified on twitter even after twitter has changed their standards and rules which sadly only the right wing group has to endure and not all shitty people. To see these tweets and just sayig these are a just a few on the "other" side is really downplaying this thing.

Again there is a good argument to be made and which has proven hrough history that every side has shitty people and extremists. Anoterh one would be Lindar Sarasour which wanted to circumsize another women for not agreeing with her views. Or the praising of Sharia etc. And this Person was the lead figure of Women's March 2018. So yeah....
As I said, these aren't lawmakers, which makes a big difference. I don't condone their behavior but there is a big difference when the US president or leaders in Congress represent one extreme and writers for teenvogue represent the other. Both sides are bad, but one needs to be taken far more seriously than the other due to the balance of power and influence they have.
 
Commies. Too much commies

See, this is just the right wing version of the use of descriptors as ad hominems like "nazi" or "white supremacist". If you think more about it, were they reaaaally communists? I'm pretty sure you'd come up with the answer "no", if one considered most members' policy ambitions.
Unless it was somehow ironic, in which I'd have to apologize for not getting it. That said I would view the authoritarian and revolutionary spirit (not action, but spirit) as a big part of both extremist growth in both the right and left wing communities. If that was your intention, then I could see that.

A big problem with the political environment nowadays, which another member described as "always assuming the worst in people", is that there's no place for nuance in position and the identitarian us-or-them paradigm places everyone on the other side as the extreme. That goes both way, and yes, both sides. I could write pages on the fallacious use of the snarky "both sides riiiiight" that some use as well, to avoid coming with a counter-argument.
In some cases people will simply disagree on a fundamental level, in terms of guiding principles. The question is how that can be tempered in civil society, in regards to clear disagreement. Generally my answer for that is that it's usually practically done by moderates being a bigger force. If a community either has a disproportionate power distribution or a lack of moderates, then it's easier for polarization to take effect. It's also kind of complicated, because suffrage and moderate reforms have tended to lead to temper extremism in a lot of countries. That's not to say it's an argumentation against a historically positioned "extremist" position on a normative basis. Just in regards to the dynamics in civil society. There is as I see it no "perfect position" to take, but I prefer the position that allows people to come together and discuss in civil society, over polarizing rhetoric.

In regards to GAF, it's hard to pinpoint a specific thing, because you had people driven by different principles. Some cared more about results than the mean and vice versa. Some tried to have it both ways depending on what suited them and unabashed oozed hypocrisy. Since everything was done in a way that lead to an either-with-us-or-against us attitude, it was doomed to explode sooner or later. With the clear position held by certain community members in terms of their influence, their ambitions, all it needed was a little spark.
In hindsight the EviLore incident was really no big thing, with enough leeway to be a big nothing in its "assumed best" form or a small incident across large part of the spectrum. However, with the use of influence and in line with ambitions, it was easy to make it be all about the "assumed worst" form. Since EviLore was too slow in shutting down the forum in reaction, it lead to a big rebellion and a sense of "rats fleeing a sinking ship". He also made the mistake of trusting his moderators too much and focusing on wrong things in his message.

A good advice is to avoid an approach of aggression and instead attempt trying to get people to understand each others' point of view, even if you disagree with each other. Approach a subject as a discussion and not a debate, as the latter tends to be purely a rhetorical exercise. You can see this in some of the self-proclaimed "skeptic" community on YouTube where they're somehow obsessed about debates. A community shouldn't lock itself into viewing conformity as virtue or view your opponent as some simple noun. That just leads to us-or-them. That leads to militant behavior. When it affects your real life, like disowning people close to you because they don't conform to your standards, it also leads to crippling your security nets. And for general little pay-off. The Thanksgiving whining from both the left and right was to me a tragic sign of the state of the US, with people being hostile to each other and planning on disowning each other.
 

Dunki

Member
As I said, these aren't lawmakers, which makes a big difference. I don't condone their behavior but there is a big difference when the US president or leaders in Congress represent one extreme and writers for teenvogue represent the other. Both sides are bad, but one needs to be taken far more seriously than the other due to the balance of power and influence they have.
Oh I agree but that is not what the left is doing and def not on old gaf.. The left goes after everything they do not like. They doxx, they harras they establish death and rape threats they beatn people up just as much as the "right" but since they actually believe that they are on the "right side of history" which is a really terrible justification for all the shit they condem on the right. Thats why I argue with the both sides.

And let us be honest here. If the radcial left would be in charge some people would even establish concentration camps for people they do not agree with. And that is why we need to condem, every right or left nut.
 
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Renna Hazel

Member
Oh I agree but that is not what the left is doing and def not on old gaf.. The left goes after everything they do not like. They doxx, they harras they establish death and rape threats they beatn people up just as much as the "right" but since they actually believe that they are on the "right side of history" which is a really terrible justification for all the shit they condem on the right. Thats why I argue with the both sides.

And let us be honest here. If the radcial left would be in charge some people would even establish concentration camps for people they do not agree with. And that is why we need to condem, every right or left nut.
The radical left being in charge would be horrible, but they aren't in charge and there is a reason for that. Candidates like Obama and Clinton and not radical left candidates. There is no left political equivalent to Donald Trump or the Tea Party candidates.

I think you have to separate the 'left' from 'old GAF' or bloggers who have no political power. Look at the candidates nominated on each side and tell me that the radical left is anywhere near as prominent in the government as the radical right.
 

Sàmban

Banned
Oh I agree but that is not what the left is doing and def not on old gaf.. The left goes after everything they do not like. They doxx, they harras they establish death and rape threats they beatn people up just as much as the "right" but since they actually believe that they are on the "right side of history" which is a really terrible justification for all the shit they condem on the right. Thats why I argue with the both sides.

And let us be honest here. If the radcial left would be in charge some people would even establish concentration camps for people they do not agree with. And that is why we need to condem, every right or left nut.

Sure, I agree. Let's deal with and condemn all nuts. The left should condemn and deal with all nuts who doxx, harras, post shit on gaf/twitter/facebook or write in shitty magazines. The right should condemn and deal with all nuts who doxx, harras, post shit on gaf/twitter/facebook, write in shitty magazines, are members of congress, are president and/or part of the president's staff/cabinet.

Here's a HINT: there's a reason why the radical leftwing nuts do not hold power but the rightwing nuts do
 
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OrionFalls

Member
First off, whenever a moderator edits a post, their name is not automatically made visible. It's a choice some make to add their names for the sake of clarity. They are under no obligation to do so. Secondly, it is OUR job as part of the moderation team to ensure that all sides of a conversation can have their say as long as they follow the TOS. Even if we whole heartedly disagree with a poster's opinion/viewpoint, we still have to protect their right to express it on this board. Your initial post not only labels posts as transphobic (in an attempt to shut down any actual discourse) it also incorrectly indicates that "OldGAF" was a place where transphobic views were tolerated. This is not even remotely true. Regrettably, this was part of our problem. In the effort to cultivate a haven for many marginalized by society many voices were silenced simply for not being in chorus with the "hive mind".

In short, please stick to the topic. Post your opinions, reinforce your side with facts, not labels, and leave posting thread warnings to moderators.
So why did it take just under a week after the comment was posted for something to be done? And, if it was wrong, why did I have moderators quote me in agreement AND like the post?
 

EviLore

Expansive Ellipses
Staff Member
So why did it take just under a week after the comment was posted for something to be done? And, if it was wrong, why did I have moderators quote me in agreement AND like the post?

Quotes and likes are not official endorsements of the content of your message by the moderation team or the site administration. Allow me to demonstrate. ;b
 

OrionFalls

Member
Quotes and likes are not official endorsements of the content of your message by the moderation team or the site administration. Allow me to demonstrate. ;b
I’m just saying, if it’s against the rules, shouldn’t the moderator who agreed with me warn me instead, and edit the post? For what it’s worth, I don’t see how I was breaching any rules. I was just politely reminding everyone to not turn this into a transphobic thread.
 
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EviLore

Expansive Ellipses
Staff Member
I’m just saying, if it’s against the rules, shouldn’t the moderator who agreed with me warn me instead, and edit the post? For what it’s worth, I don’t see how I was breaching any rules. I was just politely reminding everyone to turn this into a transphobic thread.

Conversations are fluid, and so threads are fluid. Mods aren't omnipresent, either. You haven't received an official warning or a ban or anything, right? A mod just opened a dialogue with you, clarified some issues and expressed some concerns, and tried to steer the thread toward a productive direction. You're not being punished or silenced and this isn't some kind of dog whistle. It's all good. Thanks. :)
 

Dunki

Member
The radical left being in charge would be horrible, but they aren't in charge and there is a reason for that. Candidates like Obama and Clinton and not radical left candidates. There is no left political equivalent to Donald Trump or the Tea Party candidates.

I think you have to separate the 'left' from 'old GAF' or bloggers who have no political power. Look at the candidates nominated on each side and tell me that the radical left is anywhere near as prominent in the government as the radical right.
In Terms of politics I neither like Trump or Clinton. Trump is acting like a stupid child and not like some Nazi some people here "want" him to be. Trump is neiter smart nor has he a plan. IMO he is not dangerous since it will be over in 3 years. The oney people really need to keep an eye on is someone like Erdogan who is litterally the new Hitler. AS for Clinton. At leat I know what IU have to deal with Trump. Clinton to me was always some unpredictable Snake: I´f I could have voted I would have voted for Sanders which seems like one of the few reasonable people in American Politics right now.

As for other carzy ones in Poitics: There are for example people who want to be senator like the nutcase Brianna Wu as an example. So yes theys are also in Politics.
 

Dienekes

Moderator battling in the shade.
Are these the Neophytes?
Neophytes are just (any) new members that have just been approved and are not at the Neo Member level yet, therefore all of their posts are reviewed and approved first.
 

EviLore

Expansive Ellipses
Staff Member
That's a significant change for NeoGAF - I'm really surprised. Aren't you guys concerned about what it may open up?

Moderation tools are infinitely more robust and convenient on this platform, and I was always planning on retiring the isp/academic/work email requirement when we migrated regardless. Dumb system for 2018; just all we could really do on vb3. We'll be building out the registration and user promotion systems from here with sensible solutions that encourage positive contributions as things continue to pick back up, but not toward elitist/exclusionary ends.
 

Renna Hazel

Member
In Terms of politics I neither like Trump or Clinton. Trump is acting like a stupid child and not like some Nazi some people here "want" him to be. Trump is neiter smart nor has he a plan. IMO he is not dangerous since it will be over in 3 years. The oney people really need to keep an eye on is someone like Erdogan who is litterally the new Hitler. AS for Clinton. At leat I know what IU have to deal with Trump. Clinton to me was always some unpredictable Snake: I´f I could have voted I would have voted for Sanders which seems like one of the few reasonable people in American Politics right now.

As for other carzy ones in Poitics: There are for example people who want to be senator like the nutcase Brianna Wu as an example. So yes theys are also in Politics.
Brianna Wu is not a Senator. Plenty of crazy people want to be in Congress.

Trump has literally endorsed and hired Neo Nazis. Negating the things he's doing to make him seem more like a clown than a threat is a bad idea. You wont find man democratic equivalents that are actually in Congress.
 
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Beard of the Forest

The No. 1 cause of forest fires is trees.
I see that many people are interested in how things have changed and are changing on Neogaf. Even though I can understand being curious about what's going on behind the scenes, it's not overly relevant to this thread. Please feel free to ask any questions you have about the site here: neogaf 2.0 error and feedback thread
 

Breakage

Member
Moderation tools are infinitely more robust and convenient on this platform, and I was always planning on retiring the isp/academic/work email requirement when we migrated regardless. Dumb system for 2018; just all we could really do on vb3. We'll be building out the registration and user promotion systems from here with sensible solutions that encourage positive contributions as things continue to pick back up, but not toward elitist/exclusionary ends.
Oh right, I see. I just presumed opening it up to free email addresses was a temporary thing to draw new users. I think the original non-disposable email requirement made users value their NeoGAF account far more than they would under a universal email system. And I suppose I liked the fact that it wasn't easy to get an account on here. But if you're saying the mod tools are better then perhaps it is unnecessary to keep the non-disposable email requirement in 2018.

But anyway, I like the new NeoGAF. It looks really good, and it is a far more pleasant place to be these days. I hope things keep improving.
 
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Just look up Steve Bannon, who has since been fired but is very much a white supremacist leader.

I looked him up, but there's nothing connecting him directly to a neo nazi organization nor to "white supremacy". Are you just using the terms as ad hominems? Bannon from what I've read seems to be traditionalist and nationalist, as well as anti-muslim. Other than that it seems to go into dubious territory. Which makes your post seem disingenuous, especially as it's plural. If you meant something else, then you should be clearer in how you're using words to communicate, or if you can help me find some direct connection to make "Trump endorse and hiring neo nazis" seem like less hyperbole.
 

Renna Hazel

Member
I looked him up, but there's nothing connecting him directly to a neo nazi organization nor to "white supremacy". Are you just using the terms as ad hominems? Bannon from what I've read seems to be traditionalist and nationalist, as well as anti-muslim. Other than that it seems to go into dubious territory. Which makes your post seem disingenuous, especially as it's plural. If you meant something else, then you should be clearer in how you're using words to communicate, or if you can help me find some direct connection to make "Trump endorse and hiring neo nazis" seem like less hyperbole.
I meant what I said, The alt-right is largely composed of white nationalists and Neo Nazis. Anyone who takes on that definition is embracing those things. If you disagree with that sentiment then there is no point in debating this any further as we have a different definition of what a Neo Nazi is.
 

shpankey

not an idiot
I meant what I said, The alt-right is largely composed of white nationalists and Neo Nazis. Anyone who takes on that definition is embracing those things. If you disagree with that sentiment then there is no point in debating this any further as we have a different definition of what a Neo Nazi is.
This response is ridiculous. He is genuinely asking you to prove your claim you are stating as a fact with a source and your response is to double down and cop-out with you won't debate it because you have a different definition?

Seriously man.
 
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Renna Hazel

Member
This response is ridiculous. He is genuinely asking you to prove your claim you are stating as a fact with a source and your response is to double down and cop-out with you won't debate it because you have a different definition?

Seriously man.
No, I doubled down on my response to him, which he did not accept. My answer to his question was Steve Bannon, he did not accept that answer so there is no need to go any further. He and I disagree. Explain how this is copping out?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alt-right

This is how most define the Alt-right. If you do not agree with this then I have no reason to debate with you, as we wont come to an agreement.

I guess I thought this was obvious but I'll go ahead and point it out, Steve Bannon is the co-found of Breitbart News, which he described as the platform for the alt-right. They've given a voice to white nationalists and Neo-Nazi organizations in the past. This isn't really a secret and most republican media does not acknowledge Breitbart as credible due to the false reporting and negative associations. This is the person Trump decided to hire. Not every white nationalist has to declare themselves as such. Actions speak louder than words.
 
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shpankey

not an idiot
I guess I thought this was obvious but I'll go ahead and point it out, Steve Bannon is the co-found of Breitbart News, which he described as the platform for the alt-right. They've given a voice to white nationalists and Neo-Nazi organizations in the past. This isn't really a secret and most republican media does not acknowledge Breitbart as credible due to the false reporting and negative associations. This is the person Trump decided to hire. Not every white nationalist has to declare themselves as such. Actions speak louder than words.
Thanks for clarifying Renna.
 

Renna Hazel

Member
Thanks for clarifying Renna.
Sure. I wasn't trying to be obtuse, I just assume the very first thing one finds when they look up Steve Bannon was that he was the co-founder of an alt-right news organization. So I just took it as him not accepting my answer but I hope that makes things more clear.

Anyone is still free to disagree with my assertion, but there would be no point in debating the intricacies of what makes one a white supremacist, especially if Steve Bannon doesn't qualify.
 

shpankey

not an idiot
Right, I totally get where you're coming from now. Truly, my apologies as I didn't bother to look it up myself when I should have before jumping in, so I was curious about the connection as well. That will learn me! :p
 
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I meant what I said, The alt-right is largely composed of white nationalists and Neo Nazis. Anyone who takes on that definition is embracing those things. If you disagree with that sentiment then there is no point in debating this any further as we have a different definition of what a Neo Nazi is.

So, to me it seems that you haven't really done an inquiry into it and it's more a generally accepted truth in your circles? Because you're arguing in circles here. Because "alt-right" is such a loose term that it's a bad identifier, there's probably a few years before the phenomenon can be explored with better grasp in academia (more so, to regard how different groups perceive the term in diachronic manner). In colloquial usage on the internet it seems to regard any right wing person you don't agree with from my experience. I would suggest you find something more substantial before you make a general statement such as "Trump endorse and hiring neo nazis". The only mention of alt-right is in regards to Breitbart's platform in an interview in june 2016. That's a pretty flimsy connection, more so in regards to Bannon later disowning it. If that's all your argumentation, then it's pretty weak and sensationalist.
 

Renna Hazel

Member
So, to me it seems that you haven't really done an inquiry into it and it's more a generally accepted truth in your circles? Because you're arguing in circles here. Because "alt-right" is such a loose term that it's a bad identifier, there's probably a few years before the phenomenon can be explored with better grasp in academia (more so, to regard how different groups perceive the term in diachronic manner). In colloquial usage on the internet it seems to regard any right wing person you don't agree with from my experience. I would suggest you find something more substantial before you make a general statement such as "Trump endorse and hiring neo nazis". The only mention of alt-right is in regards to Breitbart's platform in an interview in june 2016. That's a pretty flimsy connection, more so in regards to Bannon later disowning it. If that's all your argumentation, then it's pretty weak and sensationalist.
I'm not really sure what brings you to that conclusion, but I'm fully capable of thinking for myself.

As I said, if we can't ever agree on the definition of the alt-right, which is the platform that white nationalists themselves claim, then there isn't really much point in us arguing. Why do you think the leader of the KKK was thrilled with the appointments of Steve Bannon and Jeff Sessions? Are you truly unable to connect the very obvious dots here or does every racist person in the media need to be wearing a KKK hood for you to accept them for what they are?
 
I'm not really sure what brings you to that conclusion, but I'm fully capable of thinking for myself.

Then it's just my wrong impression, because you never cited a thing, which lead me to conclude that there was something that was an accepted truth.

As I said, if we can't ever agree on the definition of the alt-right, which is the platform that white nationalists themselves claim, then there isn't really much point in us arguing. Why do you think the leader of the KKK was thrilled with the appointments of Steve Bannon and Jeff Sessions? Are you truly unable to connect the very obvious dots here or does every racist person in the media need to be wearing a KKK hood for you to accept them for what they are?

Well, except I've done a google search through the term "alt-right" on the Trump subreddit during january 2016 to july 2016, and there's honestly no coherent view of what "alt-right" is. Which should much more mirror how unclear the term was felt within the right-wing camp at the time, which might've been attempt by the white supremacists to lure people to their cause by branding themselves differently, which is a pretty standard tactic for right-wing extremist groups. If the term was unclear for a large part of the right-wing movement at the time, then there's no functional definition of what constitutes the "alt-right" in terms of how its use was perceived. It seems there was a panic and a rebranding to the New Right in the subreddit at some point during the Fall 2016. So there's a danger of using the term too easily without other identifying factors. At least during some parts of the 2016s from my searches. This is actually an interesting subject and could make for a great thesis. For anyone within social sciences it can be an interesting avenue to explore, although there's a lot of methodological difficulties in regards to the use of internet boards depending on the approach.

That the KKK is thrilled with Steve Bannon and Jeff Sessions isn't necessarily a reflection of them, but either of the KKK's perception of who will front policies they like or . Also, no, I don't require a KKK hood, but I also require more than "KKK likes him, therefore neo nazi". Therefore "Trump hires neo nazis", with the implication that he somehow does so consciously, is generally a disingenuous statement. The same argumentation could be used if someone in the Obama administration hired some people later revealed to be pedophiles. Does that justify "Obama endorse and hiring pedophiles"? Of course not. Perhaps if he knew they were, but that requires more than just assumptions. More so, your use of "neo nazi" doesn't seem to cover any of the two mentioned. At least from the few searches I've done.
 

Dunki

Member
Sure. I wasn't trying to be obtuse, I just assume the very first thing one finds when they look up Steve Bannon was that he was the co-founder of an alt-right news organization. So I just took it as him not accepting my answer but I hope that makes things more clear.

Anyone is still free to disagree with my assertion, but there would be no point in debating the intricacies of what makes one a white supremacist, especially if Steve Bannon doesn't qualify.
First of all never try to argue with a wikkipedia article that is the first thing you learn in school.

Secondly even that description is basicall everyone who does not agree with the so called "progressive" side. So yes the term al-right is pretty meaningless. Also Living in Germany I think you have no idea what Nazis even are. Even more Trump will never be Anti semetic. Even more so since his family is jewish too or the fact that he just reccently supported the jewish people by moving the US embassy to Jerusalem. Trump is surely right but he is far from being a Nazi. But again these Definintions have become so meaningless. Words like Racist, sexist, Nazi, etc actually meant something until everyone who does not agree with others was being called that. The Thing I would call Trump is a Nationalist
 

Corrik

Member
The new forum is controlled by the same that used to control off topic views.
Here people who are civil are called disgusting and narrow minded. When actually they are just giving a different point of view
Then they get dog piled and baited until they slip up and get banned. Once they're banned, they then target the next person.
The new forum has already become a worse echo chamber than here ever was. The fact that still there is a lower user count,
The crazy count is in higher concentration and it really shows just how bat shit crazy they are as it's under a microscope.

Also MOD bias is ridiculous over there, they won't ban and warn people for baiting dog piling because they're apparently a "minority"
which as you may have seen in threads doesn't quite seem right, everyone is a person, and everyone should be treated equally.

My 2c
I just wanted to second that this is true. You have to almost be outright on board completely with a progressive platform that is supported in said other community or, like you said, you are jumped and eventually moderated/banned.

Someone I saw was discussing some politics in a very guarded posting pattern, the other users asked that person to be less guarded and discuss more the stances they had. (Said person being a moderate conservative who supports mostly conservative but some liberal political points). They stated their stances fully, including that they were pro-LGBT rights platforms, but that they had limits to what they felt that entailed, in as many words. (As in some people, in their mind, feel some who are championing those causes are going overboard in how they are doing it).

The person was immediately dogpiled as being trans and homophobic by the community and banned 20 days with no warning or anything for being "sexist and spouting anti-LGBT rhetoric".

Just figured I would vouch on your statement as being accurate to my knowledge.

I have no other opinion on the subject.
 

RafterXL

Member
Is it possible that here, you were in a bubble that got interrupted by diversity? Saying that people saw racism and sexism in everything leads me to believe that you were being exposed to how more people view the same things, and you didn't like it that much. Then the numbers grew leading into a complete takeover, finally pushing you out.

The "takeover" didn't happen organically like you make it out to be. People who were pushed out weren't done so by growing numbers but rather by an insidious group group of mods and members whose mission was to drive away "wrong think". The rules didn't apply equally, which has been well documented, which led to these groups running wild and keeping a large percentage of voices from being heard.

And it's happening again at ERA. The first few weeks were great, but the same group of people are pulling the same shit. Moderation isn't being applied equally, certain users are allowed to do and say anything while others are banned for the most benign of posts. You can already see the forming of of factions and mods making hit lists behind the scenes like this place once had.

The only bubble is the one these people created and have now run off to create again at yet another site.
 

BraveOne

Member
The "takeover" didn't happen organically like you make it out to be. People who were pushed out weren't done so by growing numbers but rather by an insidious group group of mods and members whose mission was to drive away "wrong think". The rules didn't apply equally, which has been well documented, which led to these groups running wild and keeping a large percentage of voices from being heard.

And it's happening again at ERA. The first few weeks were great, but the same group of people are pulling the same shit. Moderation isn't being applied equally, certain users are allowed to do and say anything while others are banned for the most benign of posts. You can already see the forming of of factions and mods making hit lists behind the scenes like this place once had.

The only bubble is the one these people created and have now run off to create again at yet another site.

Lets say this, i made a point in Era that no matter how right you are on a topic there will always be someone to oppose you because they will feel like you are taking something away from them. I used LGBTQ rights as an example , Conservatives oppose it for their own silly reasons but regardless they are the other side of the coin. Was perma banned. It really is a whole new bubble in its own where emotions out weigh logic.
 
these examples are not small numbers. Some of them are journalists and writer for the Vogue and teenvogue. Another one is a bigger name in the whole feminist movement and they all are verrified on twitter even after twitter has changed their standards and rules which sadly only the right wing group has to endure and not all shitty people. To see these tweets and just sayig these are a just a few on the "other" side is really downplaying this thing.

Again there is a good argument to be made and which has proven hrough history that every side has shitty people and extremists. Anoterh one would be Lindar Sarasour which wanted to circumsize another women for not agreeing with her views. Or the praising of Sharia etc. And this Person was the lead figure of Women's March 2018. So yeah....

Maaaaaaaan.

These are jokes. In the same way that there are jokes about killing people who walk too slowly on busy pavements, and killing people who repeatedly finish the last of the milk. Jokes about doing negative things to people aren't automatically bad. They become bad when they come from groups who actually make moves to hurt the groups involved, or who have actually made moves to hurt those people in the past. I can joke about punching a baby in the face, and people might find that funny, people would find that way less funny if I had punched a baby in the face before. That's why your "every side has shitty people and extremists" thing rings hollow to me, because only one side has actually actively hurt people. If the feminist joking that "all men should die" actually supported policies that killed men or had done so in the past, I wouldn't find it as funny.
 

Lupingosei

Banned
From what I’ve seen, Era is OldGAF 2.0.

It is even worse sometimes. But I don't care, because I am pretty happy those people left gaf. I was lurking since 2009 joined 2011 and they started to change the forum into a direction I suddenly had to fight for my opinion. It was not like before 2015/2016 the board was a hub for the alt-right or anything. People were shitposting more that is true but it was also funnier and more relaxed. You did not have to check everything three times, because somebody could use something you wrote as bait or try to frame you for something.
 

PtM

Banned
Then it's just my wrong impression, because you never cited a thing, which lead me to conclude that there was something that was an accepted truth.



Well, except I've done a google search through the term "alt-right" on the Trump subreddit during january 2016 to july 2016, and there's honestly no coherent view of what "alt-right" is. Which should much more mirror how unclear the term was felt within the right-wing camp at the time, which might've been attempt by the white supremacists to lure people to their cause by branding themselves differently, which is a pretty standard tactic for right-wing extremist groups. If the term was unclear for a large part of the right-wing movement at the time, then there's no functional definition of what constitutes the "alt-right" in terms of how its use was perceived. It seems there was a panic and a rebranding to the New Right in the subreddit at some point during the Fall 2016. So there's a danger of using the term too easily without other identifying factors. At least during some parts of the 2016s from my searches. This is actually an interesting subject and could make for a great thesis. For anyone within social sciences it can be an interesting avenue to explore, although there's a lot of methodological difficulties in regards to the use of internet boards depending on the approach.

That the KKK is thrilled with Steve Bannon and Jeff Sessions isn't necessarily a reflection of them, but either of the KKK's perception of who will front policies they like or . Also, no, I don't require a KKK hood, but I also require more than "KKK likes him, therefore neo nazi". Therefore "Trump hires neo nazis", with the implication that he somehow does so consciously, is generally a disingenuous statement. The same argumentation could be used if someone in the Obama administration hired some people later revealed to be pedophiles. Does that justify "Obama endorse and hiring pedophiles"? Of course not. Perhaps if he knew they were, but that requires more than just assumptions. More so, your use of "neo nazi" doesn't seem to cover any of the two mentioned. At least from the few searches I've done.
Aw, too bad it's all so nebulous... You're probably right, Trump just didn't know what he was doing. That makes all the difference.
From what I’ve seen, Era is OldGAF 2.0.
From what I've seen, they're not.
 
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These are jokes. In the same way that there are jokes about killing people who walk too slowly on busy pavements, and killing people who repeatedly finish the last of the milk. Jokes about doing negative things to people aren't automatically bad. They become bad when they come from groups who actually make moves to hurt the groups involved, or who have actually made moves to hurt those people in the past.
Yeah, they're just jokes!

"I think it's fine if innocent black men are shot in the street by cops as long as that means actual criminals are caught as well!" Funny joke, right? Hah! I'm actually crying over here, lol.

Like are you actually being serious right now? Even within your twisted logic, one could argue (some) feminists are hurting men. Here's an article covering such things.
I thought progressives would hold themselves to a higher standard, what with them wanting to achieve social equality and all that, but I guess that somehow doesn't prevent them from being shitty people, and that behavior is excused because they're at the right side. Where have I heard this kind of reasoning before...
 

Relativ9

Member
Aw, too bad it's all so nebulous... You're probably right, Trump just didn't know what he was doing. That makes all the difference.

Oh come on, he laid out a couple of detailed arguments for why guilty by association shouldn't be used in this case (or any for that matter, ever heard of McCarthyism?) and you reply with that?

Could you actually address his points please?
 

prag16

Banned
Then it's just my wrong impression, because you never cited a thing, which lead me to conclude that there was something that was an accepted truth.

The bolded... you've hit upon one of the biggest follies of the modern left. This doesn't necessarily apply to everybody, but this current discussion is a great example. They think ALL their opinions are accepted truths, and behave as such. Seen here with the idea that Trump endorsing and hiring actual neo-Nazis is self evident and needs no support. And then the flipside of that is earlier in the topic, assertions that Obama sometimes engaged in even subtle race baiting, being met with demands for a compendium of sourced references from "approved" outlets. (If National Review is going to be dismissed out of hand as an invalid source, the likes of CNN and MSNBC probably should be too.)
 
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Yeah, they're just jokes!

"I think it's fine if innocent black men are shot in the street by cops as long as that means actual criminals are caught as well!" Funny joke, right? Hah! I'm actually crying over here, lol.

Like are you actually being serious right now? Even within your twisted logic, one could argue (some) feminists are hurting men. Here's an article covering such things.
I thought progressives would hold themselves to a higher standard, what with them wanting to achieve social equality and all that, but I guess that somehow doesn't prevent them from being shitty people, and that behavior is excused because they're at the right side. Where have I heard this kind of reasoning before...

I'm not protecting shitty behaviour. I'm saying that a both sides argument is extremely reductive and completely ignores current social power structures and the history of inequality.

The black man-criminal joke/analogy doesn't really address my argument at all, in fact it basically does the opposite.

Even the article you linked isn't really about feminists hurting men, it's mostly about how an over criticism of men could hurt a feminist argument. I think it's difficult to show/prove that a group like feminists, that has never held any real power, has done any real harm here. This isn't a "right side" argument, it's a one side of things has been historically awful and to this day holds pretty much all power so it's okay to make jokes about them, argument.

This isn't me saying that these jokes can't be sometimes mean or shitty, I'm saying that it's crazy to use that as an example of a radical feminism that is evil and must be stopped at all costs.
 
The bolded... you've hit upon one of the biggest follies of the modern left. This doesn't necessarily apply to everybody, but this current discussion is a great example. They think ALL their opinions are accepted truths, and behave as such. Seen here with the idea that Trump endorsing and hiring actual neo-Nazis is self evident and needs no support. And then the flipside of that is earlier in the topic, assertions that Obama sometimes engaged in even subtle race baiting, being met with demands for a compendium of sourced references from "approved" outlets. (If National Review is going to be dismissed out of hand as an invalid source, the likes of CNN and MSNBC probably should be too.)

CNN can't be, but MSNBC can because of its generic association. There are better places to get information from. There is a decently sized list of places that you shouldn't get your news from.
 
it's a one side of things has been historically awful and to this day holds pretty much all power so it's okay to make jokes about them, argument.
If you want to achieve equality, you don't start talking about how shitty a particular group is, blaming all the world's problems on them. It doesn't matter if both sides are equally bad or not. At best you could argue "well, at least they haven't killed millions yet!" which is hardly a compliment. White supremacists are trash, and so are these morons joking about aborting white boys. Those comments are not okay, doesn't matter who says it or which group it targets. Get outta here with that trash.
 
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