Support NeoGAF

[legend166]

I think the reactions of everyone was pretty normal and I don't think it would have been different if it was say, Manchester by the Sea instead of Moonlight. The sympathy isn't with the white movie over the black movie, it's with the movie that thought it had won and then got told it didn't. It must have been pretty embarrassing for those dudes to have their award taken away mid acceptance speech. It definitely sucks that the winner didn't get their moment in the sun as they should have, but at the end of the day, they won the actual award so on a sympathy level there's only so far you can go.

I mean, I get the way this looks and how perfectly it fits into the modern racial situation in the US, but in this case I genuinely don't believe it would have been different if it were a primarily white film.

 

[wildfire]

Kimmel was caught short, made a lame joke offering the La La Land folks some consolation on what was obviously pretty disappointing and embarrassing for them. There's nothing remotely racist about it. That's fucking ridiculous reaching.

Well based on Korey's post above yours Kimmel had more time to process the situations and still continued to only engage the LLL team.


Explain why Kimmel had empathy only for the La La Land team and not for both?

 

[MisterAnderson]

I think the reactions of everyone was pretty normal and I don't think it would have been different if it was say, Manchester by the Sea instead of Moonlight. The sympathy isn't with the white movie over the black movie, it's with the movie that thought it had won and then got told it didn't. It must have been pretty embarrassing for those dudes to have their award taken away mid acceptance speech. It definitely sucks that the winner didn't get their moment in the sun as they should have, but at the end of the day, they won the actual award so on a sympathy level there's only so far you can go.

I mean, I get the way this looks and how perfectly it fits into the modern racial situation in the US, but in this case I genuinely don't believe it would have been different if it were a primarily white film.

This.

 

[Selddon]

So Moonlight was robbed of its 'moment' rather than La La Land who genuinely thought they won the award before it was given to moonlight. Ok.

 

[Kinyou]

Well based on Korey's post above yours Kimmel had more time to process the situations and still continued to only engage the LLL team.


Explain why Kimmel had empathy only for the La La Land team and not for both?

Maybe because he still didn't actually process the situation? Maybe he was waiting for directions. The shows director might have wanted to do a reset to announce moonlight's win properly but that opportunity faded the more the actors etc. took over control.

 

[old manatee]

The problem is that Kimmel didnt acknowledge the Moonlight people even once. He spent the whole time joking/talking to the LLL people and Beatty.

Watch the clip again. The bald producer and Beatty had to cut him off twice because they wanted to give Moonlight their time to talk.

This doesn't mean that Kimmel is racist, but it might be an example of institutionalized racism in action.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Well based on Korey's post above yours Kimmel had more time to process the situations and still continued to only engage the LLL team.


Explain why Kimmel had empathy only for the La La Land team and not for both?

Korey is some joker on the internet who has no idea what it is like to be in the position Kimmel was in. Anybody can claim that something is easily fixable when they get to rewatch it four days later and pick apart whats going on.

Him engaging with the LLL people doesn't mean he had any idea of what to do in the situation he was in. Very few, if any people, would.

 

[The Albatross]

Well based on Korey's post above yours Kimmel had more time to process the situations and still continued to only engage the LLL team.


Explain why Kimmel had empathy only for the La La Land team and not for both?

Because thinking that you've won an award to then be told you didn't win obviously deserves more empathy than thinking that you lost an award and then being told you've won.

Losing an award is no big deal, but being told you won, and then finding out that you actually lost is, obviously, much much worse.

You have to have an ax to grind to think that being a loser and being a winner deserve equal empathy. Obviously people are more sympathetic to losers.

Or, Kimmel is just a subconscious racist.

 

[ISWThunder]

Obviously it sucks how it happened, but in the end, the mayhem will likely have a far more positive impact on how many more people see and/or remember Moonlight.

It's a movie that very few people saw in the theaters and many people had never even heard of. Winning Best Picture alone raises the movie's profile immensely, but there are plenty of Best Picture winners that are quickly forgotten. Nobody will ever forget this moment and it is now forever a part of the public consciousness, even for people (like me) that have little interest in the Oscars.

 

[wildfire]

Maybe because he still didn't actually process the situation? Maybe he was waiting for directions. The shows director might have wanted to do a reset to announce moonlight's win properly but that opportunity faded the more actors etc. took over control.

No he had already processed it and said you guys should still take the trophy and continued tojoke with them and only them aftwerwards.

That's institutional racism at play.

This is what happens when people screw up normally.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DKDaSd-4nY

I take full responsibility I announced the wrong name.

My mistake don't take it out on the ladies.

There are very few reasons someone is so thoughtless they would only consider the feelings of one side in this situation and not the other.


All of you guys are doing your best to avoid asking yourself the question why Kimmel didn't consider the feelings of both nominees.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

No he had already processed it and said you guys should still take the trophy and continued tojoke with them and only them aftwerwards.

That's institutional racism at play.

This is what happens when people screw up normally.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DKDaSd-4nY

There are very few reasons someone is so thoughtless they would only consider the feelings of one side in this situation and not the other.


All of you guys are doing your best to avoid asking yourself the question why Kimmel didn't consider the feelings of both nominees.

But Kimmel wasn't the in the Harvey role in this situation, and Beatty did exactly what Harvey did and explained his error and called the rightful winners up.

 

[Kinyou]

No he had already processed it and said you guys should still take the trophy and continued tojoke with them and only them aftwerwards.

That's institutional racism at play.

This is what happens when people screw up normally.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DKDaSd-4nY

So steve Harvey doesnt even console the one who just lost? That seems a lot more shitty to me actually.
I mean I'm not so sure why you're so adamant that both parties require the same empathy if one just lost something while the other one won something

 

[The Albatross]

All of you guys are doing your best to avoid asking yourself the question why Kimmel didn't consider the feelings of both nominees.

Quite the opposite. Having no feelings for Kimmel, I'd be happy to consider that he's racist. You've decided that he's racist and are looking for reasons to believe he's racist, and won't consider any other reasons for his behavior.

Reasons for Kimmel (supposedly) sympathizing more with La La Land than with Moonlight:

1. It's normal to sympathize more with losers than winners, especially with people who lose in such embarrassing situations
2. Winners deserve some sympathy, but not as much as losers
3. Winning in that way sucks, I think everybody would rather there wasn't this confusion/fuck up. But losing in that the way La La Land lost is much worse.
4. Kimmel is a comedian and probably not great at sympathizing with people in general
5. Kimmel is in an unprecedented moment for an award show and somebody totally fucked up at the worst spot ever, and he did his best
6. Kimmel probably isn't that great of an MC and isn't skilled enough to handle such a massive fuck up at the moment
7. Kimmel is a racist

So, I'm willing to consider all of them. You, seemingly, are only willing to consider one.

 

[wildfire]

So steve Harvey doesnt even console the one who just lost?

I even provided quotes so you didn't have to watch the video. He was protecting the egos of both parties from the reaction of the crowd that splintered between booing and cheering. He wasn't actively consoling either of them in that clip.

 

[LosDaddie]

This article is mr. Fantastic level of reaching

Lol this is why gen z hate us. We just accused them of racism, homophobia, bigotry all because some guy got distracted by Emma stone and gave the presenters the wrong envelope.

They weren't robbed of anything. They got their fucking award right on the stage. Why do people care so much about the optics. Stop bitching and look at what happened. They corrected their mistake and admitted they Fucked up.

Yes it wasn't perfect but nothing in life is perfect. Shit happens. Stop moaning about what's fair and move the Fuck on.

Essentially my take on the situation. It was an awkward mistake.

 

[The Salt Life]

I don't. You do. We can agree to have our own perspectives.




Yeah right. This is not the common reaction at all. The common reaction is "whoops our bad but you guys are also awesome."

If you were on stage you probably wouldn't know what to say either. It's easy to sit back and think about it after the fact, this was a unprecedented moment in Oscar history that would have thrown the most skilled MC off their game.

 

[Kinyou]

I even provided quotes so you didn't have to watch the video. He was protecting the egos of both parties from the reaction of the crowd that splintered between booing and cheering. He wasn't actively consoling either of them in that clip.

Well exactly, thats not a big show of empathy to me.

 

[Socivol]

I agree with this article I read another one about how the producer of La La Land that took the card was a hero...and I just was completely baffled. He's a hero for pointing out a mistake and giving back an award he didn't actually win? I don't think that's heroic that's just doing what you're supposed to do. Kimmel was probably flustered which I can understand but not once did he congratulate the actual winners or say anything to comfort or support them. That's what this article is talking about. There is another article I saw yesterday that had Barry Jenkins and a producer of Moonlight on the cover and it's like "Why?" This should be a moment for the producers of Moonlight to have all of the spotlight on them not to share it with a group of people that didn't actually win.

 

[wildfire]

It's great to know racism is still a quantum particle. We can acknowledge its existence but when we look at it it becomes very hard to see.

As i stated earlier the article doesn't provide a compelling reason why the general reaction to the mistake is a sign of racism and I could list the exact same reasons you guys are using to defend Kimmel.

People would normally act this way regardless of race. There is nothing in ther reactions to argue otherwise.



The issue with Kimmel is that we have a very clear case of preferential treatment when two parties have both been wronged by accident. We see it, not simply with mannerisms which can be interpreted in many ways; but in actual words which narrows room for interpretation.

None of you can explain Kimmel's clear preferences.

 

[Ultima_5]

honestly the fuck up probably got more people to learn about the movie

 

[Kinyou]

The issue with Kimmel is that we have a very clear case of preferential treatment when two parties have both been wronged by accident. We see it, not simply with mannerisms which can be interpreted in many ways; but in actual words which narrows room for interpretation.

None of you can explain Kimmel's clear preferences.

It has been explained over and over. One party is clearly in a lot more need of consolation than the other.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

It's great to know racism is still a quantum particle. We can acknowledge its existence but when we look at it it becomes very hard to see.

As i stated earlier the article doesn't provide a compelling reason why the general reaction to the mistake is a sign of racism and I could list the exact same reasons you guys are using to defend Kimmel.

People would normally act this way regardless of race. There is nothing in ther reactions to argue otherwise.



The issue with Kimmel is that we have a very clear case of preferential treatment when two parties have both been wronged by accident. We see it, not simply with mannerisms which can be interpreted in many ways; but in actual words which narrows room for interpretation.

None of you can explain Kimmel's clear preferences.

Albatross just listed about two or three reasons, along with multiple other reasons of why he would have acted the way he did.

People are explaining why Kimmel would have empathized with the people from LLL more, you're just ignoring it so you can repeat the same thing over and over while saying that no one else is explaining why he acted the way he acted.

If anyone is doing a poor job at showing reasoning for their argument here, it's you. There are plenty of reasonable explanations for him acting the way he did, but all you're doing is sticking your fingers in your ears and repeating what you think.

 

[shintoki]

All of you guys are doing your best to avoid asking yourself the question why Kimmel didn't consider the feelings of both nominees.

You mean, the mistake where Steve Harvey held his hand over the winner and read the wrong name.

Vs

Betty being given the wrong card completely.

Where one is completely his own fault, versus one that started backstage without a single person on the stage involved. Where those two are the only ones who knew the correct winner.

You're basically comparing Kimmel for having nothing to do with the result, reading, or anything versus Harvey who actually read... you know, the wrong fucking thing on the right card.

 

[wildfire]

If you were on stage you probably wouldn't know what to say either. It's easy to sit back and think about it after the fact, this was a unprecedented moment in Oscar history that would have thrown the most skilled MC off their game.

I nor you need to be on a world stage. We all go through life where mistakes are made in front of an audience and yes I do and others I have seen caught in similar situations apologize to both or all (when more than 2) parties.

It's not hard.

 

[DerZuhälter]

Explain why Kimmel had empathy only for the La La Land team and not for both?

Because the LLL team was turned from winners into losers.

The article is reaching.
And this is the quintessence of it all.

Much like Jimmy Kimmel, however, Americans are socially conditioned to feel the most empathy for what folks are losing rather than for what folks are rightfully, finally winning.

Is this bad? Were we monsters for feeling bad for Miss Columbia, and not feeling more empathy for Miss Phillipines who rightfully won? No of course, not. Sure she deservedly won, but you still have to feel bad for the other gal that was on top, only for mere seconds, before realizing she was the victim of a mixup.

But once we add the two magic words...

Much like Jimmy Kimmel, however, Americans are socially conditioned to feel the most empathy for what white folks are losing rather than for what black folks are rightfully, finally winning.

Trying to dress this mishap up as inherent or institutional racism is fucked up. Even if you consider that sentence true in a broader political view, in terms of a competition, a sport event or an award show, this rings ugly and false.

 

[wildfire]

You mean, the mistake where Steve Harvey held his hand over the winner and read the wrong name.

Vs

Betty being given the wrong card completely.

Where one is completely his own fault, versus one that started backstage without a single person on the stage involved.

It doesn't matter in this case whose fault it is in how it is started. All that matters after the mistake is made is how someone handles it. Kimmel had the abnormal reaction and I'm inclined to see it as a sign of racism at play here but not with Beatty or anyone else there because Kimmel actually made his thoughts vocal immediately and significantly after the mistake was clarified.

Kimmel made his own bed and you guys can't stand looking at it.

 

[ISWThunder]

Albatross just listed about two or three reasons, along with multiple other reasons of why he would have acted the way he did.

People are explaining why Kimmel would have empathized with the people from LLL more, you're just ignoring it so you can repeat the same thing over and over while saying that no one else is explaining why he acted the way he acted.

On Bill Simmons podcast, Kimmel lays it out from his perspective. He wasn't supposed to return to the stage and he had no earpiece in to hear from the control room. He initially assumed that it was Beatty's fault because he couldn't read the teleprompter during rehearsals causing Beatty and Dunaway to schedule a second rehearsal. He said everyone, including the people from Moonlight, were reluctant to give a speech and Denzel Washington basically yelled from the crowd to get them to step to the podium.

It was a giant mess and everyone was confused. Blaming it on racism is just lazy. There's plenty of real racism in the world and in Hollywood. There is zero evidence that this is an example of it.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

It doesn't matter in this case whose fault it is in how it is started. All that matters after the mistake is made is how someone handles it. Kimmel had the abnormal reaction and I'm inclined to see it as a sign of racism at play here but not with Beatty or anyone else there because Kimmel actually made his thoughts vocal immediately and significantly after the mistake was clarified.

Kimmel made his own bed and you guys can't stand looking at it.

No, the problem isn't that we can't stand looking at it. The problem is that you're looking at it with blinders on.

 

[ISWThunder]

It doesn't matter in this case whose fault it is in how it is started. All that matters after the mistake is made is how someone handles it. Kimmel had the abnormal reaction and I'm inclined to see it as a sign of racism at play here but not with Beatty or anyone else there because Kimmel actually made his thoughts vocal immediately and significantly after the mistake was clarified.

Kimmel made his own bed and you guys can't stand looking at it.

I think very few people consider his response "abnormal." What is the normal reaction to an unprecedented situation? This is now the biggest moment in Oscars history and it's a giant, live mess. Assuming that there is a normal reaction to this scenario is ludicrous.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

Well based on Korey's post above yours Kimmel had more time to process the situations and still continued to only engage the LLL team.


Explain why Kimmel had empathy only for the La La Land team and not for both?

Because they won? What was he going to say "Sorry for not knowing you had won 5 minutes earlier". They still got to get up on stage, they still got the full time for their acceptance speeches. The only difference was that they didn't have their name read initially from the envelope, and I'm sure the feeling of winning far far eclipses that initial disappointment

 

[Veelk]

Because the LLL team was turned from winners into losers.

The article is reaching.
And this is the quintessence of it all.

Is this bad? Were we monsters for feeling bad for Miss Columbia, and not feeling more empathy for Miss Phillipines who rightfully won? No of course, not. Sure she deservedly won, but you still have to feel bad for the other gal that was on top, only for mere seconds, before realizing she was the victim of a mixup.

But once we add the two magic words...

Trying to dress this mishap up as inherent or institutional racism is fucked up. Even if you consider that sentence true in a broader political view, in terms of a competition, a sport event or an award show, this rings ugly and false.

To answer your question, no your not monsters, but you are doing a bad thing.

Empathy isn't sympathy. It's not just about feeling bad for a person, it's about feeling with a person. You are supposed to be equally empathetic with the La La's crew's feelings of loss as you are with the Moonlight crew's feelings of hope and joy.

Even if we take the racial component out of the situation, you are left with the actual winners of the award being ignored and uncongratulated on their accomplishment, which is the entire point of an award's ceremony, not just handing out chunks of metal. It's pretty shitty even on it's own.

But when you do notice that the racial component is in there, we have a pretty typical explanation for why they are not getting recognized, because this happens all the time

 

[Zen_Arcade]

To answer your question, no your not monsters, but you are doing a bad thing.

Empathy isn't sympathy. It's not just about feeling bad for a person, it's about feeling with a person. You are supposed to be equally empathetic with the La La's crew's feelings of loss as you are with the Moonlight crew's feelings of hope and joy.

Even if we take the racial component out of the situation, you are left with the actual winners of the award being ignored and uncongratulated on their accomplishment, which is the entire point of an award's ceremony, not just handing out chunks of metal. It's pretty shitty even on it's own.

But when you do notice that the racial component is in there, we have a pretty typical explanation for why they are not getting recognized.

Except this didn't happen. It just got unfortunately delayed.

 

[Veelk]

Except this didn't happen. It just got unfortunately delayed.

We're talking about Jimmy Kimmel and his actions in particular though, correct?

If the Moonlight Crew got literally no recognition whatsoever, there would be less debate about it I think.

 

[wildfire]

Because the LLL team was turned from winners into losers.

The article is reaching.

By trying to call the reaction of everyone else there racist.



Kimmel is the exception.

Trying to dress this mishap up as inherent or institutional racism is fucked up. Even if you consider that sentence true in a broader political view, in terms of a competition, a sport event or an award show, this rings ugly and false.

Only if you don't take the time to wonder why Kimmel gave preferential treatment to LLL team and couldn't give the Moonlight team any recognition.

Because they won? What was he going to say "Sorry for not knowing you had won 5 minutes earlier".

He said in no uncertain terms LLL should keep the trophy.



Even if taken as a joke he gave no recognition to the Moonlight crew for also being put in awkward situation. You're right that Moonlight were the winners so the mistake would sting less. That still doesn't handwave Kimmel's effort to only support LLL long after that callous joke or statement was made.







Anyway I've discussed this for a full page. We'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[ISWThunder]

We're talking about Jimmy Kimmel and his actions in particular though, correct?

But he wasn't even on the stage at first. How can you possibly blame him for Moonlight not getting congratulated properly? He said that he didnt even know if his mic was on and that when he tried to use the stage mic, it began to descend into the stage.

 

[old manatee]

To answer your question, no your not monsters, but you are doing a bad thing.

Empathy isn't sympathy. It's not just about feeling bad for a person, it's about feeling with a person. You are supposed to be equally empathetic with the La La's crew's feelings of loss as you are with the Moonlight crew's feelings of hope and joy.

Even if we take the racial component out of the situation, you are left with the actual winners of the award being ignored and uncongratulated on their accomplishment, which is the entire point of an award's ceremony, not just handing out chunks of metal. It's pretty shitty even on it's own.

But when you do notice that the racial component is in there, we have a pretty typical explanation for why they are not getting recognized, because this happens all the time

Because the envelopes got mixed up and it took a few minutes to sort things out because there was a stage full of confused people milling around and saying conflicting things into microphones.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

We're talking about Jimmy Kimmel and his actions in particular though, correct?

Jimmy Kimmel wasn't even supposed to be on the stage. Had everything gone smoothly, he wouldn't have said anything to people from Moonlight for winning anyway because he would have been out in the audience during their speech.

The only reason he had any role in the situation at all is because it was a massive fuck up no one knew what to do for.

 

[Ishan]

Micro aggression by jimmy kimmel yeah no . Don't agree at all . Was assuaging a uncomfortable situation ... That's all nothing to do with race IMO


And yeah no it's unfortunate it happened to moonlight but isn't to do much with race IMO ...

 

[MikeHaggar]

Holy shit. Is the conversation now about whether Jimmy Kimmel is racist or showed a racially-motivated preference to the whites? C'mon, already....

 

[Ishan]

Holy shit. Is the conversation now about whether Jimmy Kimmel is racist or showed a racially-motivated preference to the whites? C'mon, already....

I know right w t f is going on in thisthread

 

[CrimsonSquall]

Our society doesn't really give a shit about queer/black people, so its no surprise. That douche bag excuse of a host, Jimmy Kimmel, also made fun of the Muslim name of one of the actors from Moonlight who won for best supporting actor, and also made a homophobic joke about the one sex scene from Moonlight.

Thanks straight white people.

I'm missing something... this is a joke right? You are way too triggered to watch TV

 

[Blader]

Of all the things to complain about, I'm not sure why the lack of a full acceptance speech is robbing Moonlight of its moment. For one, Jenkins gave a pretty good speech earlier in the show when he won best adapted screenplay. But more than that, Moonlight is going to live in Oscars history precisely because of this whole fuck up. More people are going to know about and, maybe, seek out watching the movie, not because it won best picture but because of all the crazy shit that surrounded it winning best picture.

 

[Nokagi]

Of course you are going to feel somewhat worse for the people who thought they won over those who really did win. I mean think about it. Which would you rather happen to you? Being told you won and give a speech in front of millions of people only to be told a few minutes later that you actually lost or to sit in your chair thinking you lost only to hear you actually won? Given the choice I'd definitely rather have been the Moonlight crew. And I have no doubt that if Moonlight had been the mistake and La La Land actually won this article but would be talking about how it's important to remember how white Hollywood stole the award from Moonlight.

 

[Ishan]

Of all the things to complain about, I'm not sure why the lack of a full acceptance speech is robbing Moonlight of its moment. For one, Jenkins gave a pretty good speech earlier in the show when he won best adapted screenplay. But more than that, Moonlight is going to live in Oscars history precisely because of this whole fuck up. More people are going to know about and, maybe, seek out watching the movie, not because it won best picture but because of all the crazy shit that surrounded it winning best picture.

Ironically this . Moonlight would have been some random best picture to me . Now it's the one from the mixup and I'll remember the name much more and might actually watch it .

 

[MikeHaggar]

Of all the things to complain about, I'm not sure why the lack of a full acceptance speech is robbing Moonlight of its moment. For one, Jenkins gave a pretty good speech earlier in the show when he won best adapted screenplay. But more than that, Moonlight is going to live in Oscars history precisely because of this whole fuck up. More people are going to know about and, maybe, seek out watching the movie, not because it won best picture but because of all the crazy shit that surrounded it winning best picture.

I think it sucks that they got robbed of a "normal" award acceptance and it's unfortunate. I can see people being disappointed in that. Turning the whole fiasco into a racial situation seems a bit ridiculous to me unless it comes out that there was some type of conspiracy for all of this to happen.

edit: I also think the article is trash.

 

[Angelus Errare]

The variety cover is the most insulting thing IMO

 

[D4Danger]

The variety cover is the most insulting thing IMO

I assume you missed this

 

[ISWThunder]

The variety cover is the most insulting thing IMO

How's that? Did you even look into it or see what Barry Jenkins said about it?

 

[old manatee]

The variety cover is the most insulting thing IMO

For those just joining us in relitigating the Oscars:

 

[DerZuhälter]

To answer your question, no your not monsters, but you are doing a bad thing.

Empathy isn't sympathy. It's not just about feeling bad for a person, it's about feeling with a person. You are supposed to be equally empathetic with the La La's crew's feelings of loss as you are with the Moonlight crew's feelings of hope and joy.

While I acknowledge your argument I think the author of the article is trying to make a different case. Yes I feel sympathy for LLL because the way they lost is more brutal as usual. I feel though the article is trying to convey that me feeling sympathetic for LLL team, means I have no empathy at all for ML's crew. And not only that, it tries to picture it as racially motivated.

Only if you don't take the time to wonder why Kimmel gave preferential treatment to LLL team and couldn't give the Moonlight team any recognition.

Take Kimmel reactions as you want, I'm not defending him, I don't care about him. But I do care about the article trying to convey that the viewers compassion with the loser team is connected with their skincolor. If the roles were reversed my reaction would have still been the same (but to extremer effect, because I was rooting for Moonlight).