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[BocoDragon]

I am tired of people acting like Ep 7 being what it was is a bad choice.

They did the right thing. The idea Ep 7 should've been experimental is an utterly delusional concept by people who should never be allowed anywhere near a writing pad, let alone a camera.

It's "utterly delusional" that a movie should have its own vision rather than copying another?

I'm fine with people liking TFA, but it's led to people willfully dismissing the very obvious fact, which is admitted by the creators, that it was conceived of as a retread.

It's very natural to react to that direction as being cynical and disappointing.

 

[AgentChris]

I wonder if they will do a major twist. Especially involving Snoke.

 

[jackal27]

Man, it never ceases to amaze me how many people still defend the prequels over The Force Awakens. I know it shouldn't, but I t boggles my mind. The Force Awakens is not a perfect film, but... Man. A retread of one of your favorite movies ever is more offensive to you than something as convoluted and bland as the prequels?

No wonder they played it safe.

 

[Saucycarpdog]

I wonder if they will do a major twist. Especially involving Snoke.

The identity of Rey's parents will probably be the major twist.

 

[BlueDogAnchorite]

The identity of Rey's parents will probably be the major twist.

Yeah that's what I'm wondering too. I think she might not be a Skywalker.

 

[Killer Queen]

The identity of Rey's parents will probably be the major twist.

Real Episode 8 leaks. Major spoilers:

Spoiler

Rey's parent is revealed to be a sith Lord that was introduced back in the prequels

Spoiler

Jar-Jar Binx

 

[BlueDogAnchorite]

Real Episode 8 leaks. Major spoilers:

Spoiler

Rey's parent is revealed to be a sith Lord that was introduced back in the prequels

Spoiler

Jar-Jar Binx

Would be down for this

 

[Nairume]

I wonder if they will do a major twist. Especially involving Snoke.

I'm still 100% on board with the idea of the big twist with Snoke is that

Spoiler

he's Ezra from Rebels

That is something I would say is an actual risk.

 

[Fudgepuppy]

I agree with you on that your opinion is your opinion.

For me, the Prequels really expanded the universe. It showed how the Republic was, and how it fell. It gave lot of info on the Jedi. If anything they fit perfectly with the OT. I really liked the politics. I found it interesting that the Jedi were the cause of their own downfall instead of their downfall being caused by just an outside force.

Wanted to ask, have you ever watched The Clone Wars show? You should watch it if you want, but it's just a recommendation. It's actually my favorite Star Wars, and I feel that the show does lot of things better than all 7 movies. (Hope this not off topic since we are talking about The Force Awakens)

The republic were idiots and never made any good decisions. The jedi fell because of contrived screen-writing. What a jedi is, and what a jedi does, did not match at all in the prequels.

Haven't watched the Clone Wars, not planning on it either.

I've heard it basically "fixes" the prequels, but I feel much more happy and genuinely excited as a Star Wars fan with my despecialized editions and EP7.

 

[Harmen]

They planted several seeds to go in interesting new directions and I hope they take them. I expect them to do so, actually.

 

[WadiumArcadium]

I'm still 100% on board with the idea of the big twist with Snoke is that

Spoiler

he's Ezra from Rebels

That is something I would say is an actual risk.

That's about as likely as Jar Jar's long long sister Job Job turning up.

 

[Escape Goat]

You mean they already took a risk?

 

[Nairume]

I've heard it basically "fixes" the prequels, but I feel much more happy and genuinely excited as a Star Wars fan with my despecialized editions and EP7.

As somebody who does like and appreciate the Clone Wars (both the shorts and the CG series), I can't agree with the idea that it fixes the prequels. It does wonders with taking bad source materials and making good stuff out of them, but it doesn't really fix most of the problems that are inherent to the prequels themselves.

 

[BlueDogAnchorite]

The republic were idiots and never made any good decisions. The jedi fell because of contrived screen-writing. What a jedi is, and what a jedi does, did not match at all in the prequels.

Haven't watched the Clone Wars, not planning on it either.

I've heard it basically "fixes" the prequels, but I feel much more happy and genuinely excited as a Star Wars fan with my despecialized editions and EP7.

That's good. The republic in The Force Awakens were idiots, the action in The Force Awakens was boring, I wasn't on the edge of my seat. Just lot of stuff that didn't make sense in The Force Awakens.

I just did a recommendation for you, no need to bite my head off. Like how I have no need to watch the Plinkett reviews. It's your own choice.

But hey keep on ignoring the Prequels, stuff from that time period is going to show up eventually in the new movies. Also, I loved the way he wrote the Jedi, and explained the politics. I mean it was much better than the little explanation that was given in The Force Awakens. Which was a terrible movie due to the script itself.

I'm done

 

[WadiumArcadium]

That's good. The republic in The Force Awakens were idiots, the action in The Force Awakens was boring, I wasn't on the edge of my seat. Just lot of stuff that didn't make sense in The Force Awakens.

I just did a recommendation for you, no need to bite my head off. Like how I have no need to watch the Plinkett reviews. It's your own choice.

But hey keep on ignoring the Prequels, stuff from that time period is going to show up eventually in the new movies. Also, I loved they way he wrote the Jedi, and explained the politics. I mean it was much better than the little explanation that was given in The Force Awakens. Which was a terrible movie due to the script itself.

I'm done

I know you didn't get on with the film but I'd suggest reading Star Wars Bloodline. It does a great job of fleshing out the New Republic and the origin of the First Order. Rian Johnson had some story input as well.

 

[partyphone]

lol

the jedi were a bunch of inept idiots in the prequels

 

[BlueDogAnchorite]

I know you didn't get on with the film but I'd suggest reading Star Wars Bloodline. It does a great job of fleshing out the New Republic and the origin of the First Order. Rian Johnson had some story input as well.

Thanks man. I'll say this. I really love the new comics and books that are part of the timeline. I've been reading it slowly, and I'm really liking the politics so far.

 

[shingi70]

Uhh, I'm specifically saying that I've never met anyone before who liked the prequels after watching the reviews, which means that I'm not exactly denying you of your opinions.

And yes, movies are subjective. I love Neon Demon, everyone else I know hates it.

Difference is that Neon Demon accomplished what it was trying. The prequels didn't succeed at expanding the universe or bridging the stories. At the end of the day, I ignore the prequels because they don't align with the OT, because they aren't exciting movies, and because they feel obtuse and horribly unsupervised.

.


The prequels did expand do the universe. The OT focuses primaily on the galaxy during a rebellions and outside of Cloud City the locals are either rough and tumble in the middle of nowhere, or have military value.

The PT let us see the fall of the Jedi, the reason why the clone wars happened, expanded upon why Anikan betrayed the order, and a lot more. It's cartoon counterpart introduced even more.

 

[partyphone]

except the prequels did all of those things extremely poorly. the clone wars are dumb, started for completely stupid and avoidable reasons and have stakes because it's all clones and robots no one cares about.

anakins fall makes no sense and is unearned. he would betray everyone because he had a bad dream about padme? it's contrived and stupid.

the clone wars line from ANH was just a cool sounding throw away line used to establish that jedi were warriors. and the line about anakin falling to the dark side doesn't actually happen in the prequels. he just shows up at the dark side because lucas is a shitty writer.

 

[shingi70]

The republic were idiots and never made any good decisions. The jedi fell because of contrived screen-writing. What a jedi is, and what a jedi does, did not match at all in the prequels.

Haven't watched the Clone Wars, not planning on it either.

I've heard it basically "fixes" the prequels, but I feel much more happy and genuinely excited as a Star Wars fan with my despecialized editions and EP7.

You weren't paying attention to the films then, the Jedi fell because they had become arrogant and dogmatic by the time the prequels had begun. It's also stated in Phantom Meance that their connection to the force had become greatly diminished for a variety of reasons. Also they practice detachment and burying your emotions which gels with the OT. There is a reason why Yoda and Obi-Wan kept Vader's identity a secret for Luke and we're ready for Luke to let his friends die on cloud city.

 

[CD'S BAR]

You weren't paying attention to the films then, the Jedi fell because they had become arrogant and dogmatic by the time the prequels had begun. It's also stated in Phantom Meance that their connection to the force had become greatly diminished for a variety of reasons. Also they practice detachment and burying your emotions which gels with the OT. There is a reason why Yoda and Obi-Wan kept Vader's identity a secret for Luke and we're ready for Luke to let his friends die on cloud city.

The movie just tells you these things though, and doesn't really show it. Like what's an example from the movies where the Jedi being dogmatic led to their downfall? If anything their failure to follow their traditions started the whole fall e.g. training anakin despite being too old.

 

[Escape Goat]

You weren't paying attention to the films then, the Jedi fell because they had become arrogant and dogmatic by the time the prequels had begun. It's also stated in Phantom Meance that their connection to the force had become greatly diminished for a variety of reasons. Also they practice detachment and burying your emotions which gels with the OT. There is a reason why Yoda and Obi-Wan kept Vader's identity a secret for Luke and we're ready for Luke to let his friends die on cloud city.

They kept his father a secret because they knew Luke had to kill Vader. And having him distracted with that would freak him out even more and make it even more difficult than things already were.

"And sacrifice Han and Leia?"

"If you value what they fight for, yes."

Luke sacrificing himself for selfish reasons when the galaxy was at stake was something Han and Leia would agree was wrong. And Luke would have died if Vader wasn't emotionally conflicted.

 

[TheSecondSpitter]

The idea behind that concept art was that he would flow between the dark side and the light. It was one of the early ideas they were throwing about.

Vader can warn Kylo Ren to avoid sand, it's coarse and it gets everywhere.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

In ROTJ Lando was basically the real Han Solo.

 

[shingi70]

They kept his father a secret because they knew Luke had to kill Vader. And having him distracted with that would freak him out even more and make it even more difficult than things already were.

"And sacrifice Han and Leia?"

"If you value what they fight for, yes."

Luke sacrificing himself for selfish reasons when the galaxy was at stake was something Han and Leia would agree was wrong. And Luke would have died if Vader wasn't emotionally conflicted.

But the point was Luke acting on his emotions are what ultimately saved the day.

 

[Servbot24]

With Rian Johnson at the helm, you'll hope.

I'm hoping the episode is about Luke and Rey trying to get a fly out of their Tie-Fighter.

 

[yanipheonu]

I honestly have no problem with TFA. Given the last non-prequel Star Wars movie was decades ago, that the newest one was a retread.

It was actually nice to see the "no matter how much you fight the darkness, some asshole is always going to pop up and start shit again" History Repeats Itself story. Y'all know this happens in real life right?

TFA was a good time to play it safe. Re-establish the Star Wars status quo after the prequels. Now the sequel is where you can really start taking risks.

 

[kunonabi]

The movie just tells you these things though, and doesn't really show it. Like what's an example from the movies where the Jedi being dogmatic led to their downfall? If anything their failure to follow their traditions started the whole fall e.g. training anakin despite being too old.

The Jedi telling Anakin to just ignore his attachments and his fears that something were happening to his mother and Padme went a long way in Anakin's turn to the darkside. They pulled the same crap in Empire with Luke and the Jedi were wrong both times.

It was more their selfish way of picking and choosing when to break their rules that brought them down.

Yoda and Obi Wan were also wrong that Luke had to kill Vader. Luke ends up becoming a better class of Jedi exactly because he doesn't make the same mistakes that they did.

 

[TomJoadsGhost]

But the point was Luke acting on his emotions are what ultimately saved the day.

yeah, but then han and leia had a naughty babby, just like yoda warned.

its like Chekov's gun, even though Chekov is a star trek guy.

 

[Jawmuncher]

I hope. As decent as EP7 was, really did feel like more of a retread

 

[CD'S BAR]

The Jedi telling Anakin to just ignore his attachments and his fears that something were happening to his mother and Padme went a long way in Anakin's turn to the darkside. They pulled the same crap in Empire with Luke and the Jedi were wrong both times.

It was more their selfish way of picking and choosing when to break their rules that brought them down.

Yoda and Obi Wan were also wrong that Luke had to kill Vader. Luke ends up becoming a better class of Jedi exactly because he doesn't make the same mistakes that they did.

How were the Jedi wrong, though? If Anakin had listened to Yoda and detached himself from his mother and Padme then he wouldn't have gone dark. Anakin's failure to be dogmatic was the problem.

 

[Skellig Gra]

Don't get your hopes up. Clearly the formula in episode 7 worked for Disney from a box office earnings standpoint

 

[DiipuSurotu]

Don't get your hopes up. Clearly the formula in episode 7 worked for Disney from a box office earnings standpoint

It won't work twice though. Everyone knows that.

 

[Lifejumper]

Everything points to Rians SW being different and new. Watch people go "this isnt sw" when the first trailer hits.

 

[kunonabi]

How were the Jedi wrong, though? If Anakin had listened to Yoda and detached himself from his mother and Padme then he wouldn't have gone dark. Anakin's failure to be dogmatic was the problem.

Detachment isn't necessarily the answer especially in Anakin's case who was too old for that to have been a reasonable thing to ask of him. Anakin wanted to be a Jedi so he could help people and the Jedi were constantly telling him not to bother. Love can also be strength and Luke was proof of that.

The Jedi were dealing with the Chosen One and they kept trying to treat him like any other Jedi despite everything that was going on.

 

[Moonkid]

Not getting my hopes up at all, in fact I'm preparing myself for a neutered film in the end. Would love to be proven wrong.

 

[brandonh83]

Man, it never ceases to amaze me how many people still defend the prequels over The Force Awakens. I know it shouldn't, but I t boggles my mind. The Force Awakens is not a perfect film, but... Man. A retread of one of your favorite movies ever is more offensive to you than something as convoluted and bland as the prequels?

No wonder they played it safe.

I'm not sure what some SW fans would do if they actually liked a new SW movie. Like it'd be confusing.

How were the Jedi wrong, though? If Anakin had listened to Yoda and detached himself from his mother and Padme then he wouldn't have gone dark. Anakin's failure to be dogmatic was the problem.

Yeah, basic human nature, instinct, and emotions are simple to ignore if you just listen to the little green dude.

 

[Einchy]

I dunno and I don't really care.

TFA was my favorite movie of last year and one of my all around favorites movies ever. If they do another risk free movie and it's still as good as TFA, I won't mind at all.

 

[Thug Waffle]

"What was important for me was introducing brand new characters using relationships that were embracing the history that we know to tell a story that is new — to go backwards to go forwards."

lmao. well, the way i see it now, nobody sugarcoats a total ripoff like JJ Abrams.

 

[CharminUltra]

Hope so, but I'm not holding my breath. Why put the extra effort while you can just push the green button on the photocopier and make bank like you did last time? The mindless masses will just eat it up.

 

[BocoDragon]

lmao. well, the way i see it now, nobody sugarcoats a total ripoff like JJ Abrams.

This is the guy who had just done the exact same thing with Into Darkness. His cohort of screenwriters includes Kurtzman and Orci... I don't think much of him as a visionary storyteller. He's a competant workman.

 

[Sibersk Esto]

No one really knows what taking risks looks like.

 

[WadiumArcadium]

Hope so, but I'm not holding my breath. Why put the extra effort while you can just push the green button on the photocopier and make bank like you did last time? The mindless masses will just eat it up.

Well, isn't that nice and condescending.

 

[brandonh83]

lmao. well, the way i see it now, nobody sugarcoats a total ripoff like JJ Abrams.

TFA isn't even really like ANH. The story, tone, characters and conflicts are completely different. It has certain similarities and callbacks, but calling it a ripoff or copy is wholly ignorant. Going oh, it has a Death Star like weapon so it's a ripoff! is blatantly stupid, and while it does have more similarities, the way the actual plot plays out is very different and things that are similar play out differently.

Like there's a brief trench run like scene, but it's about 40 seconds long and not the focus of the climax, which is a lightsaber duel in a snowy forest. I don't recall ANH ending like that.

Similarities? Yes. Ripoff? People need to give that shit a rest already.

Side note: Into Darkness is also absolutely fucking nothing like Wrath of Khan.

 

[Thug Waffle]

It's "utterly delusional" that a movie should have its own vision rather than copying another?

I'm fine with people liking TFA, but it's led to people willfully dismissing the very obvious fact, which is admitted by the creators, that it was conceived of as a retread.

It's very natural to react to that direction as being cynical and disappointing.

Wasn't Michael Arndt's script going in a different direction? Focusing more on the OT characters and precluding a beat-for-beat copy/paste of ANH's plot?

Then JJ/Kasdan took a crack at it, came back with a lame outline that played it so safe the Disney & LucasFilm execs almost came on the spot.

Is that Arndt script available online anywhere?

 

[Thug Waffle]

This is the guy who had just done the exact same thing with Into Darkness. His cohort of screenwriters includes Kurtzman and Orci... I don't think much of him as a visionary storyteller. He's a competant workman.

Agreed. Nevertheless, I thought he would have learned from Into Darkness.

TFA isn't even really like ANH. The story, tone, characters and conflicts are completely different. It has certain similarities and callbacks, but calling it a ripoff or copy is wholly ignorant. Going oh, it has a Death Star like weapon so it's a ripoff! is blatantly stupid, and while it does have more similarities, the way the actual plot plays out is very different and things that are similar play out differently.

Like there's a brief trench run like scene, but it's about 40 seconds long and not the focus of the climax, which is a lightsaber duel in a snowy forest. I don't recall ANH ending like that.

Similarities? Yes. Ripoff? People need to give that shit a rest already.

Side note: Into Darkness is also absolutely fucking nothing like Wrath of Khan.

It is a ripoff. Outline both films and compare. TFA isn't a poor execution of a rip-off - I'm not saying that. It's a good film, but it'll never be great. We've felt all the same feelings before in the almost the exact same order. That's not impressive, nor gripping. They took the engine of a 1977 Camaro and stuffed it in the body of a 2015.

 

[brandonh83]

I've seen both. I know how both play out. Apart from certain things they're very different movies both story wise and tonally.

 

[BocoDragon]

TFA isn't even really like ANH. The story, tone, characters and conflicts are completely different. It has certain similarities and callbacks, but calling it a ripoff or copy is wholly ignorant. Going oh, it has a Death Star like weapon so it's a ripoff! is blatantly stupid, and while it does have more similarities, the way the actual plot plays out is very different and things that are similar play out differently.

Like there's a brief trench run like scene, but it's about 40 seconds long and not the focus of the climax, which is a lightsaber duel in a snowy forest. I don't recall ANH ending like that.

Similarities? Yes. Ripoff? People need to give that shit a rest already.

Side note: Into Darkness is also absolutely fucking nothing like Wrath of Khan.

"Go backward to go forward" -JJ

We can disagree over what word to use. Ripoff, homage, retread, rhyming poetry. Whatever it is, the creator admits that his design method was to go back and lift elements or the original.

I just don't think it makes sense to dismiss the word "ripoff" when it's just a matter of how kind you choose to be to JJ's admitted method.

As it happens I was also annoyed by how it was a disappointing remake. I think we've talked about this in the past. The Death Star battle did not have the impact of the original. I accept that maybe it's being used for a different purpose ("background action" I suppose, vs centrepiece of emotional conflict.) But it took me out of the movie to even have to make the comparison between two films and then be disappointed that some elements were not equal and were actually lesser than the impact of the original.

And on another note... I don't think anyone actually have likes the film because of the re-used elements. I think everyone engrossed with Finn and Rey would be equally so if they had their own original settings and plot beats.

 

[WadiumArcadium]

Wasn't Michael Arndt's script going in a different direction? Focusing more on the OT characters and precluding a beat-for-beat copy/paste of ANH's plot?

Then JJ/Kasdan took a crack at it, came back with a lame outline that played it so safe the Disney & LucasFilm execs almost came on the spot.

Is that Arndt script available online anywhere?

No, it's not. Arndt's drafts had Rey's home being destroyed, sending her off on a journey where she meets Luke earlier. He felt the problem was it took too much of the focus off Rey.

 

[brandonh83]

There's a difference between what people seem to think JJ is saying versus what JJ is actually saying. He's not admitting it's a retread or those 15 other labels because it isn't. He's saying it has certain beats and similarities and yet that doesn't make it a retread. Very different things happen in the movie, specifically.