We can disagree over what word to use. Ripoff, homage, retread, rhyming poetry. Whatever it is, the creator admits that his design method was to go back and lift elements or the original.
I just don't think it makes sense to dismiss the word "ripoff" when it's just a matter of how kind you choose to be to JJ's admitted method.
As it happens I was also annoyed by how it was a disappointing remake. I think we've talked about this in the past. The Death Star battle did not have the impact of the original. I accept that maybe it's being used for a different purpose ("background action" I suppose, vs centrepiece of emotional conflict.) But it took me out of the movie to even have to make the comparison between two films and then be disappointed that some elements were not equal and were actually lesser than the impact of the original.
And on another note... I don't think anyone actually have likes the film because of the re-used elements. I think everyone engrossed with Finn and Rey would be equally so if they had their own original settings and plot beats.
Honestly, I think you just really like the movie and it's different enough for you. That's totally cool. Still, you shouldn't try and say that these two films aren't comparable in terms of story, plot, and tone. You keep making statements like this and people aren't going to believe you truly understand what those words mean in the context of film critique. Again, refer to the Camaro analogy. The script, which details the "plot" and solidifies the broad stroke that is the "story," is very nearly the same engine, or arrangement of components, from A New Hope. Now, it's masked with a modern paint job and housed in an updated shell. But it's virtually the same thing.
That's not exciting to a lot of people. It's not exciting to me. Sorry.
No, it's not. Arndt's drafts had Rey's home being destroyed, sending her off on a journey where she meets Luke earlier. He felt the problem was it took too much of the focus off Rey.
I was not a fan of how Luke was treated like this macguffin. And then at the end (in an ending which was very in-Star Wars), it was like "yup, ta da. It's Luke."
He should have been organically woven into the story rather than being this unearned trophy.
I can appreciate not taking the focus off Rey. But they reduced Luke to this "unlockable character" like when you beat a fighting game
Honestly, I think you just really like the movie and it's different enough for you. That's totally cool. Still, you shouldn't try and say that these two films aren't comparable in terms of story, plot, and tone. You keep making statements like this and people aren't going to believe you truly understand what those words mean in the context of film critique. Again, refer to the Camaro analogy. The script, which details the "plot" and solidifies the broad stroke that is the "story," is very nearly the same engine, or arrangement of components, from A New Hope. Now, it's masked with a modern paint job and housed in an updated shell. But it's virtually the same thing.
Yeah I don't see it that way. I can analyze the story without even making ANH comparisons and I keep saying stuff like how it's tonally different because they don't... feel tonally the same lol. But hell, it's a circular argument and we're not going to change each other's minds. I realize the similarities, I'm not even arguing that there's none, but I feel like the characters, pacing, visual style, conflicts, etc are completely different.
If TFA ended with a trench run with Rey flying an Xwing and using the Force to blow it up I'd probably be miffed.
Yeah I don't see it that way. I can analyze the story without even making ANH comparisons and I keep saying stuff like how it's tonally different because they don't... feel tonally the same lol. But hell, it's a circular argument and we're not going to change each other's minds. I realize the similarities, I'm not even arguing that there's none, but I feel like the characters, pacing, visual style, conflicts, etc are completely different.
If TFA ended with a trench run with Rey flying an Xwing and using the Force to blow it up I'd probably be miffed.
JJ Abrams is nothing more than a hack that drives everything he touches to the ground. He should really stay far away from the director's chair as much as possible. Hell, I'll even take Zack Snyder over him these days.
JJ Abrams is nothing more than a hack that drives everything he touches to the ground. He should really stay far away from the director's chair as much as possible. I'll even take Zack Snyder over him these days.
The idea of repeating the plot of a previous film in the same series is insane, and something people have only become accustomed to in the last 10 years. Not doing that is not exactly ground breaking.
TFA is also a ripoff of ROTJ, it starts with sand like Tatooine then has trees like Endor then ends with ANOTHER Death Star attack. This also means ROTJ is a ripoff of ANH because TFA is a ripoff of ANH and where it's exactly like ROTJ too it means all three movies are basically the same thing. TPM also has trees and sand and a Force gifted person blowing up a space station at the end so really only 3 of the 7 movies aren't ripoffs of ANH.
^ ROTJ did borrow too much from the original film, which is part of the reason it's not viewed as highly as ESB. Blowing up another Death Star was incredibly underwhelming, and people said as much at the time.
I am genuinely astounded that people actually think that they could've made a better film, or that the team who made the film should've done anything differently.
Like, I don't care for The Avengers at all. But the film I'd have made? Would not have been a film that'd make 1.5 billion. There's nothing wrong with thinking a film isn't the one you'd want, but to seriously believe they should have taken risks and experimented? It is actually delusional thinking.
The republic were idiots and never made any good decisions. The jedi fell because of contrived screen-writing. What a jedi is, and what a jedi does, did not match at all in the prequels.
Haven't watched the Clone Wars, not planning on it either.
I've heard it basically "fixes" the prequels, but I feel much more happy and genuinely excited as a Star Wars fan with my despecialized editions and EP7.
When you take Anakin's characterization from the prequels based on how he was written and performed, you might say that the Jedi Council were right to not want him to be trained as a jedi. And I was not sold on the idea that the Jedi were out of touch. Stupid maybe, but not out of touch in a way that set the wheels in motion for their demise.
I think the Jedi needed to be a more antagonistic foil for Anakin to work off of. And if that meant making the members into villains of sort, then so be it.
I remember an interesting discussion I had with a pal a few years back about how Jedi Council should have fallen. To make his point, he alluded to the Roman Catholic Church and the sex abuse scandals from the 1990's. He wasn't trying to compare Jedi to pedophile priests, but he made the point that he felt that the Catholic Hierarchy valued influence and power over justice for the victims of sex abuse, and because of that faith in this institution ultimately suffered, with many catholics questioning their devotion to the church, and those with impeccable records being unfairly dragged through the mud.
By the same token, he also made a point that there are catholics who don't subscribe to the Holy See's doctrine and are more progressive minded on many issues. And he compared Luke Skywalker to these more progressive catholics, that because he had come from a less affluent background, and that he would be more inclined to discarding the traditions of the old Jedi Council, such as their edict of banning relationships and such, I still don't understand why the Jedi (in Lucas' mind) would frown upon a Jedi being in a relationship. I know historically why Catholic priests could not marry, so perhaps Lucas was drawing from that source. But did he actually feel that Jedi shouldn't be in relationships? Was the fact that he was in a secret relationship a justifiable reason to turn him into the villain, or was Lucas making an indictment on the Jedi Council, because he didn't do a good job in making an argument for either in my opinion.
Edit: Can somebody explain where the idea that the Plinkett reviews suddenly made the prequels bad? I can't fathom that it took those reviews to suddenly jar everyone on the internet into reality.
When you take Anakin's characterization from the prequels based on how he was written and performed, you might say that the Jedi Council were right to not want him to be trained as a jedi. And I was not sold on the idea that the Jedi were out of touch. Stupid maybe, but not out of touch in a way that set the wheels in motion for their demise.
I think the Jedi needed to be a more antagonistic foil for Anakin to work off of. And if that meant making the members into villains of sort, then so be it.
I remember an interesting discussion I had with a pal a few years back about how Jedi Council should have fallen. To make his point, he alluded to the Roman Catholic Church and the sex abuse scandals from the 1990's. He wasn't trying to compare Jedi to pedophile priests, but he made the point that he felt that the Catholic Hierarchy valued influence and power over justice for the victims of sex abuse, and because of that faith in this institution ultimately suffered, with many catholics questioning their devotion to the church, and those with impeccable records being unfairly dragged through the mud.
By the same token, he also made a point that there are catholics who don't subscribe to the Holy See's doctrine and are more progressive minded on many issues. And he compared Luke Skywalker to these more progressive catholics, that because he had come from a less affluent background, and that he would be more inclined to discarding the traditions of the old Jedi Council, such as their edict of banning relationships and such, I still don't understand why the Jedi (in Lucas' mind) would frown upon a Jedi being in a relationship. I know historically why Catholic priests could not marry, so perhaps Lucas was drawing from that source. But did he actually feel that Jedi shouldn't be in relationships? Was the fact that he was in a secret relationship a justifiable reason to turn him into the villain, or was Lucas making an indictment on the Jedi Council, because he didn't do a good job in making an argument for either in my opinion.
Edit: Can somebody explain where the idea that the Plinkett reviews suddenly made the prequels bad? I can't fathom that it took those reviews to suddenly jar everyone on the internet into reality.
I think it's because they gave validity to disliking the prequels as movies, whereas before it was just "sand and Jar Jar".
I used to think the prequels were okay, even if I as a 9-year old felt that TPM was confusing as hell. Then I watched the Plinkett-reviews and I just realized how good Star Wars can be, and how the prequels are just flawed as movies and stories.
To me, all the talk of the jedi being obtuse and so on, is just wish-thinking. I never got that when watching the movies, I just got the feeling that it was stupid and horribly contrived. The conflict of the jedi, republic and the separtists never came off as natural. I just sat there watching the movies and feeling confused, unsure of what they were trying to convey.
Retroactively you can say that they are deep, but from the way George lucas handles movies and topics, this just feels like wish-thinking.
They'll make a shit ton of money either way, true, but actual quality is important for lasting appeal (=more money). Avatar made a ton of money, but nobody cares about it because it was a forgettable film.
They played safe on purpose. They knew what they were doing
People still think this is a legitimate criticism of a "poorly-constructed" film when it was a crucial decision that they deliberately made in order to recreate and redefine the feeling of Star Wars for a new era.
People acting like the new Star Wars creators are incompetent because "hurrr they just made New Hope again" are ridiculous and don't deserve to have their notions indulged.
I think it's because they gave validity to disliking the prequels as movies, whereas before it was just "sand and Jar Jar".
I used to think the prequels were okay, even if I as a 9-year old felt that TPM was confusing as hell. Then I watched the Plinkett-reviews and I just realized how good Star Wars can be, and how the prequels are just flawed as movies and stories.
To me, all the talk of the jedi being obtuse and so on, is just wish-thinking. I never got that when watching the movies, I just got the feeling that it was stupid and horribly contrived. The conflict of the jedi, republic and the separtists never came off as natural. I just sat there watching the movies and feeling confused, unsure of what they were trying to convey.
Retroactively you can say that they are deep, but from the way George lucas handles movies and topics, this just feels like wish-thinking.
Like someone on the board said earlier, The Clone Wars animated series gives context to the blanks you're describing. That being said, it doesn't alleviate the problems in the prequel films themselves, and this coming from someone who actually enjoys Clone Wars. There's no redeeming the prequels short of an actual remake. And if the Lucasfilm story group explicitly tries to implement prequel era elements into future films -- the sequel trilogy in particular -- they'll do so at the risk of alienating all the good will they've garnered from Force Awakens.
I'm Kathleen Kennedy, and I'm asking myself what good that does in expanding the brand. I just can't see the upside of incorperating Hayden Christensen into episode VIII, even if some within the fandom thinks that it would be paying proper tribute to Vader's character. It would be so obnoxious, akin to the cut and paste job Lucas did at the end of Return of the Jedi.
Really, the best solution would be to separate their film canon spanning episode IV-VII from their prequel era canon. That would include episode I-III and their animated shows. At least until enough time passes. It may actually take years before anyone can begin to implement the prequels into future films as expositional backstory.
the bridge has already been built, but formula will remain the same overall: super safe and entertaining since it makes sense from a £££ perspective. I just hope for some Luke jedi action
Like someone on the board said earlier, The Clone Wars animated series gives context to the blanks you're describing. That being said, it doesn't alleviate the problems in the prequel films themselves, and this coming from someone who actually enjoys Clone Wars. There's no redeeming the prequels short of an actual remake. And if the Lucasfilm story group explicitly tries to implement prequel era elements into future films -- the sequel trilogy in particular -- they'll do so at the risk of alienating all the good will they've garnered from Force Awakens.
I'm Kathleen Kennedy, and I'm asking myself what good that does in expanding the brand. I just can't see the upside of incorperating Hayden Christensen into episode VIII, even if some within the fandom thinks that it would be paying proper tribute to Vader's character. It would be so obnoxious, akin to the cut and paste job Lucas did at the end of Return of the Jedi.
Really, the best solution would be to separate their film canon spanning episode IV-VII from their prequel era canon. That would include episode I-III and their animated shows. At least until enough time passes. It may actually take years before anyone can begin to implement the prequels into future films as expositional backstory.
People say that but you have many people like me who were 8 and grew up with the prequels and likes them despite their flaws. Then you have a slightly younger group right below us who came into with Revenge and mostly the clone Wars cartoon.
I mean outside of the men children of the 70s the prequels aren't deemed all that bad from the generation that actual matters he 18-35 demographic. Old foggies who were around for the OT in theatres are already grabbed by nostalgia and having kids who are the right age for Star Wars.
So have prequel elements in the newer films wouldn't be all that bad, expect the prequels honestly outside of some crazy plot twist just aren't relevant to the universe as the the events of the prequels were going on 80 years or so removed.
the bridge has already been built, but formula will remain the same overall: super safe and entertaining since it makes sense from a £££ perspective. I just hope for some Luke jedi action
TFA is also a ripoff of ROTJ, it starts with sand like Tatooine then has trees like Endor then ends with ANOTHER Death Star attack. This also means ROTJ is a ripoff of ANH because TFA is a ripoff of ANH and where it's exactly like ROTJ too it means all three movies are basically the same thing. TPM also has trees and sand and a Force gifted person blowing up a space station at the end so really only 3 of the 7 movies aren't ripoffs of ANH.
You do know that RotJ borrowing stuff from ANH was why it was generally regarded as far weaker than the first two, right? Nowadays the first trilogy is praised by pretty much everyone, but when RotJ came out critics were not nice to it.
Yeah, I think if implemented well the prequels could've been great, and there's tons of good stuff from that era, see either of the Clone Wars TV series, or Republic Commando. The problem was in storyboarding and direction.
lol, TFA revived star wars in a way that shattered expectations. I sincerely don't care if it didn't take risks, as long as you can set the path to a new story on that universe, and with the IP.
And i don't know but,
killing han
+ female lead/jedi, seems to me like a really huge risk.
Sure, you don't care if it didn't take risks, but others do. I'm generally fine they didn't, as even though the similarities to ANH bug me, I understand why they did what they did. If episodes 8&9 are also simmiler, I'll be very dissipointed.
As for
Han's death
, it was a precondition for playing the character.
He actually wanted to be taken out in Empire, but that wasn't done.
The leads were actually going to be a lot more generic, but JJ pushed very hard for better female/minority representation, which I give him huge props on.
I don't think Episode 8 will be too much like previous movies, as I have a lot of trust in Johnson. But I won't know till it comes out.
They played safe on purpose. They knew what they were doing
People still think this is a legitimate criticism of a "poorly-constructed" film when it was a crucial decision that they deliberately made in order to recreate and redefine the feeling of Star Wars for a new era.
People acting like the new Star Wars creators are incompetent because "hurrr they just made New Hope again" are ridiculous and don't deserve to have their notions indulged.
That's a silly viewpoint. Just because people diasagree with you (or even with the consensus) doesn't mean their opinions can be ignored.
And I don't think many people are saying the creators are incompetent, or the movie is bad. To say that is to misrepresent their positions. All they are saying is they wish TFA took more risks and liberties plot wise, rather than creating a very simmilar story with a few twists and differences.
I understand why they did it: they needed to regain fans trust, and show them they are going in the direction that people beleive they should. But if they continue to do this for episodes 8 & 9, I'll be severely dissapointed.
There's so much about the Star Wars Universe that is amazing to explore and I really don't wanting to go down the same paths they have been. And if the fans only want the same shit over and over again (which I really doubt they do), fuck em. The Empire Strikes Back wasn't seen as the best Star Wars movie by repeating the same stuff over again. It was seen as great by going in a new and wonderful direction.
People say that but you have many people like me who were 8 and grew up with the prequels and likes them despite their flaws. Then you have a slightly younger group right below us who came into with Revenge and mostly the clone Wars cartoon.
I mean outside of the men children of the 70s the prequels aren't deemed all that bad from the generation that actual matters he 18-35 demographic. Old foggies who were around for the OT in theatres are already grabbed by nostalgia and having kids who are the right age for Star Wars.
So have prequel elements in the newer films wouldn't be all that bad, expect the prequels honestly outside of some crazy plot twist just aren't relevant to the universe as the the events of the prequels were going on 80 years or so removed.
Agreed. I think the Prequel aren't the bad. And that Plinkett review? It doesn't give validity at all to the people who hate them. It over blows lot of the supposed issues that the movies have. Like it's fine to dislike the films, but the problem I have is when people use him as fact.
Yeah I don't see it that way. I can analyze the story without even making ANH comparisons and I keep saying stuff like how it's tonally different because they don't... feel tonally the same lol. But hell, it's a circular argument and we're not going to change each other's minds. I realize the similarities, I'm not even arguing that there's none, but I feel like the characters, pacing, visual style, conflicts, etc are completely different.
If TFA ended with a trench run with Rey flying an Xwing and using the Force to blow it up I'd probably be miffed.
I hope they don't kill him off in the next movie. When Han died, I thought that part was so forced. I wasn't crying and it was so obvious it was going to happen. If Rian does kill him off in Episode 8, I'm hoping for a proper set off for that character.
I hope nobody complaining about TFA's retread elements is a Stranger Things fan.
Pretty sure they won't kill Luke off, at least not in Ep8. They offed Han because Ford has wanted to kill off Han since 1981. It was probably his main condition for doing the film. Hamill will be open to multiple appearances as Luke, because he loves the character and the property.
I liked that show. I usually hate shows and movies that relies on nostalgia but I ended up giving it a chance and thought it was surprisingly good. Oh I know about Ford wanting Han to be killed off. But that part in the movie wasn't emotional for me at all. I thought it was obvious and I really wasn't impacted by his death.
Pretty sure they won't kill Luke off, at least not in Ep8. They offed Han because Ford has wanted to kill off Han since 1981. It was probably his main condition for doing the film. Hamill will be open to multiple appearances as Luke, because he loves the character and the property.
They should and I think they will. They did a great job with 7 to get the franchise back on track, reconnect with the original trilogy and set up a new story, now it't time to start unfolding it.
The republic were idiots and never made any good decisions. The jedi fell because of contrived screen-writing. What a jedi is, and what a jedi does, did not match at all in the prequels.
Haven't watched the Clone Wars, not planning on it either.
I've heard it basically "fixes" the prequels, but I feel much more happy and genuinely excited as a Star Wars fan with my despecialized editions and EP7.
This was supposedly intentional. The Jedi started to behave very differently in the face of war. This wasn't covered very well in the prequels but it was in TCW. As the war went on, the council and order began to make more questionable decisions that affected how people thought of them, both within the order itself and those outside of it which eventually led to their downfall.
You should consider watching it at some point. There is some genuinely good Star Wars material in there.
This was supposedly intentional. The Jedi started to behave very differently in the face of war. This wasn't covered very well in the prequels but it was in TCW. As the war went on, the council and order began to make more questionable decisions that affected how people thought of them, both within the order itself and those outside of it which eventually led to their downfall.
You should consider watching it at some point. There is some genuinely good Star Wars material in there.
I really liked Clone Wars, but I won't go far as to say that the show redeemed the prequels. A film should stand on its own merits and not rely on peripheral sources to elevate it. On any objective level, the prequels were horribly made films. If it didn't have the name Star Wars to it, the prequels would have been forgotten by now.
I wonder what the thought process was with Dave Filoni and his team when he was writing Clone Wars. Was he thinking: "We're going to singlehandedly redeem the prequels" or was it "Fuck it, the prequels were garbage. We know it. George probably knows it too but won't admit it. But let's go balls out and try to produce a quality show, even if the source material from which it's based on is crap."
This was supposedly intentional. The Jedi started to behave very differently in the face of war. This wasn't covered very well in the prequels but it was in TCW. As the war went on, the council and order began to make more questionable decisions that affected how people thought of them, both within the order itself and those outside of it which eventually led to their downfall.
You should consider watching it at some point. There is some genuinely good Star Wars material in there.
That's one of the main reasons why I love the Prequels so much. Especially The Clone Wars, since it's expands on lot of the ideas that Lucas came up with.
