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Will Star Wars:ROS bomb?

oagboghi2

Member
Or they'll just stop posting because they have nothing.
yeah, not like there is anything else going on today that is more important than defending Kathleen Kennedy's shitty films.

And for the record, Kathleen Kennedy has been demoted. How do we know? Becuase her original slate of anthology films have been completely wiped. The Rian Johnson movie she was pushing is gone. The Princess Leia prequel gone. And now they are pivoting to television. A direction KK deliberately ignored for 5 years.

I'm sorry but I trust Disney's moves way more than Manabyte "my friend works for them" sources 😂 and your sycophantic love for Kathleen Kennedy
 

sol_bad

Member
yeah, not like there is anything else going on today that is more important than defending Kathleen Kennedy's shitty films.

And for the record, Kathleen Kennedy has been demoted. How do we know? Becuase her original slate of anthology films have been completely wiped. The Rian Johnson movie she was pushing is gone. The Princess Leia prequel gone. And now they are pivoting to television. A direction KK deliberately ignored for 5 years.

I'm sorry but I trust Disney's moves way more than Manabyte "my friend works for them" sources 😂 and your sycophantic love for Kathleen Kennedy

Thanks for once again backing up your claims with hard evidence.
 

Hissing Sid

Member
I'm sorry but I trust Disney's moves way more than Manabyte "my friend works for them" sources 😂 and your sycophantic love for Kathleen Kennedy

Hey! Manabyte totally knows people who work at Disney and they divulge all the companies Star Wars related news to him personally. He's not like those pesky, shouty YouTube peeps who will say and do anything for the clicks. No, he's totally 100% on the level because he says so. I for one have stopped listening to and reading any other internet authority except him on all things Disney Star Wars.

And as for Kathleen Kennedy! Why I'll have you know that she has a long history of ma...... Ah shit man, I ain't got nuffin for that soulless bean counter. Sorry.
 

Doom85

Member
Thanks for once again backing up your claims with hard evidence.

Especially since Rian Johnson's film trilogy is not gone, and in fact he'll also be directing a future episode of The Mandalorian. Now the Game of Thrones showrunners are out, but good riddance as I recently discovered how they treated and tried to manipulate Emilia Clarke on set. Until they improve their act, fuck those two, but props to Jason Momoa for having her back.
 

#Phonepunk#

Banned
And for the record, Kathleen Kennedy has been demoted. How do we know? Becuase her original slate of anthology films have been completely wiped. The Rian Johnson movie she was pushing is gone. The Princess Leia prequel gone. And now they are pivoting to television. A direction KK deliberately ignored for 5 years.
the Rian Johnson thing is funny cos every time he is asked he gives this flailing non-answer. he is "still in talks with Lucasfilm" which, yeah, if he was working on a whole new trilogy, I would hope he at least have the basic plot already done and start talking pre production. sounds like the new guy who got hired that the boss forgot about. him asking to direct an episode of a tv series sounds like he is trying to get the ball rolling on something, make him sound a little desperate. like LOL he's going to do a trilogy but he also wants to do an episode of a tv show? more like he is trying to keep his brand relevant, have people remember his name, the only thing he succeeded at with TLJ.
 
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Doom85

Member
They've made it clear they want to allow a bit more time before springing another trilogy out. So why would Johnson already be talking pre-production, 9 isn't even out yet.

Also, geezus, we're making a conspiracy on a guy connected to Lucasfilm directing an episode of a TV series connected to Lucasfilm? Is this really happening? Man, have you ever wondered why George RR Martin directed an episode in Season 1 of Game of Thrones? So bizarre, there must be a sinister reason behind it! I mean, it's not like there's a more obvious reason like, I dunno, the guy has some connection to the series!
 

ManaByte

Gold Member
yeah, not like there is anything else going on today that is more important than defending Kathleen Kennedy's shitty films.

And for the record, Kathleen Kennedy has been demoted. How do we know? Becuase her original slate of anthology films have been completely wiped. The Rian Johnson movie she was pushing is gone. The Princess Leia prequel gone. And now they are pivoting to television. A direction KK deliberately ignored for 5 years.

I'm sorry but I trust Disney's moves way more than Manabyte "my friend works for them" sources 😂 and your sycophantic love for Kathleen Kennedy

Hey! Manabyte totally knows people who work at Disney and they divulge all the companies Star Wars related news to him personally. He's not like those pesky, shouty YouTube peeps who will say and do anything for the clicks. No, he's totally 100% on the level because he says so. I for one have stopped listening to and reading any other internet authority except him on all things Disney Star Wars.

And as for Kathleen Kennedy! Why I'll have you know that she has a long history of ma...... Ah shit man, I ain't got nuffin for that soulless bean counter. Sorry.


lFzsYQ0.png
 
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ManaByte

Gold Member
They've made it clear they want to allow a bit more time before springing another trilogy out. So why would Johnson already be talking pre-production, 9 isn't even out yet.

Also, geezus, we're making a conspiracy on a guy connected to Lucasfilm directing an episode of a TV series connected to Lucasfilm? Is this really happening? Man, have you ever wondered why George RR Martin directed an episode in Season 1 of Game of Thrones? So bizarre, there must be a sinister reason behind it! I mean, it's not like there's a more obvious reason like, I dunno, the guy has some connection to the series!

The next trilogy is officially set for December 16, 2022, December 20, 2024, and December 18, 2026. They're announcing the director for the 2022 movie in January. That's official information, but YouTubers who make up bullshit don't care about that as long as they can get views on their bullshit FlatEarther conspiracy theories.
 
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ZehDon

Gold Member
Is it going to bomb? Of course not, it's a mainline Star Wars film, and the hardcore are too hardcore not too turn up. You'll break-even with the numbers that crowd brings in alone. With that said, in terms of overall performance... I suspect we're about to see the lowest opening for a mainline entry in the franchise. And without absolutely glowing word of mouth from the hardcore - the kind that resurrects franchises - we're about to see the lowest theatrical run to boot.

Why do I think that? It's not often corporations let you smell their fear, but here - Disney reek of it. They're trying too hard to sell this as the end of Star Wars... but we've been here before. "The Saga is complete" was Revenge of Sith's line. You can only "end" a series so many times before it's not enough to pull in the fans. This tactic isn't new - after two lukewarm movies, The Hobbit tried similar marketing with The Battle of the Five Armies' tag line "The Defining Chapter", which resulted in maintaining but not growing box office returns, and ultimately, no one gave a shit about that entire series. For those predicting massive gains based on previous films, don't under-estimate the damage done by The Last Jedi, not in terms of the hardcore fans, but in terms of the average movie goer. Solo's dismal box office shows that if fans aren't interested in your film - even if it is a Star Wars movie - they're not turning up. After The Last Jedi, fans don't really have much to be interested in. And Disney fucking know it. For all the shit JJ Abrams gets, he knows the business better than most. He can play the game, and there's a reason Disney brought him back. In the most recent trailer for Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker, they've teased everything from killing C3PO - who literally turns to the camera and says goodbye while sad music plays - to the death of Lando and/or Leia, to - most telling of all - the return of god damn fucking Palpatine... who already died some thirty odd years ago. They're not teasing the death of Finn or Poe... because no one gives a shit. Their original trailers spent more time reminding fans of the previous films than it did showing the end to their Sequel Trilogy. That reeks desperation and damage control from a company and a man who knows how to sell nostalgia. Where is the story that should've been told across these three films, that should have generated organic interest in its own conclusion? Rian Johnson killed it with one of the worst sequels ever filmed. So, I think we've seen the evidence that Disney is worried. And if they're worried, it's because they've got numbers somewhere to make them worried (like Star Wars merchandising sales dropping year after year after year while virtually everything else is the same or growing).

So, will it bomb? No, Disney and Abrams are too smart to let it fail - their marketing is exactly the right ploy to sucker in enough people to make it a success. But will it meet franchise box office expectations? Nope. And might it redeem the trilogy? Not a fucking chance in any level of hell.
 

#Phonepunk#

Banned
the idea that the same guy who wrote a film where Superman died is also writing the last Star Wars is just too funny to me. i was a Superman fanboy as a kid, wore a Halloween costume to school, all that. but when Superman bit it in that movie, i felt absolutely nothing. cos it was so poorly done. now this same guy has the final episode of SW? LOL gonna sit this one out.

honestly the idea that anyone still employs Chris Terrio is mindboggling. the expectation that i'm supposed to watch him sloppily and poorly desecrate more childhood heroes of mine is baffling. they hired this guy? why does he keep getting hired? BvS made a lot of money, i guess that's all that matters.
 
I think it'll end up higher than TLJ but below TFA.

They're really pushing the "END OF THE SAGA" angle, which will get butts in seats.

If the movie actually ends up being a fun romp, and people want to go back to see it multiple times times like TFA, then maybe it could do some crazy things.. but I still think the environment for TFA can't be replicated.
 

cryptoadam

Banned
So rumor is that the Falcon is blown up along with Chewie/Lando/R2/C3PO

If that happens then this movie is toast. This will be on killing John Conner levels for the fans.
 
So rumor is that the Falcon is blown up along with Chewie/Lando/R2/C3PO

If that happens then this movie is toast. This will be on killing John Conner levels for the fans.

I can only think of a couple ways this would even remotely be do-able without ruining the movie as a whole.
 

cryptoadam

Banned
I can only think of a couple ways this would even remotely be do-able without ruining the movie as a whole.

rumor is its done in one shot.

I just cant imagine fans being happy about this. Especially the first thing mentioned. Thats one of the most iconic things about Star Wars. I think its bigger than killing Luke LOL.
 
The Mandalorian may have happened under KK watch, but she has no creative influence over the show. On the other hand, you can see her greasy, stinky feminist footprints all over TFA, TLJ, Solo, Rogue One, and RoS. So NO, KK should not get any credit for The Mandalorian, that'a all Jon

RISE OF SKYWALKER WILL BOMB......mark this post
 
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sol_bad

Member
I just heard that Ewoks are returning. This gives me more confidence that many fans will hate the movie.

Well the original trilogy had a diminishing box office as the films released, people really didn't seem to like Ewoks back in the day. If it happens with the current trilogy it won't be the first time it's happened.
 

drganon

Member
So rumor is that the Falcon is blown up along with Chewie/Lando/R2/C3PO

If that happens then this movie is toast. This will be on killing John Conner levels for the fans.
I know Lucasfilm is dumb, but they cant be that dumb.
 
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Nymphae

Banned
So rumor is that the Falcon is blown up along with Chewie/Lando/R2/C3PO

If that happens then this movie is toast. This will be on killing John Conner levels for the fans.

That would be epic, I hope they do it. Keep twisting the knife. Wasn't there some story about Disney wanting these old characters out once and for all because Lucas still earns off of legacy characters or some shit?
 

Doom85

Member
Wasn't there some story about Disney wanting these old characters out once and for all because Lucas still earns off of legacy characters or some shit?

Which instantly seems fishy given that Han's death on 7 was most likely Harrison Ford's call. He's made it very clear he never liked the character of Han and preferred working on Indiana Jones and Blade Runner. He wanted Han to die in 6 but Lucas vetoed him due to how it would affect toy sales. I don't think it was ever confirmed if he requested Han to die in 7, but given he already wanted the character dead and publicly stated his dislike of the character, it's not hard to imagine Harrison only agreeing to come back to 7 if it would be his last one.
 

Nymphae

Banned

Do you have any sources that can either show how the rumour is incorrect or confirm it?

I'm seeing talk that he still earns for the use of characters he created as per Writer's Guild rules, which makes sense to me but I can't find anything concrete.
 

Nymphae

Banned

In October 2012 George Lucas sold Lucasfilm for $4.05 billion. When he sold Lucasfilm he also sold his rights to directly make money off new Star Wars projects (and Indiana Jones projects, etc.). He would be entitled to some royalties under Writer's Guild rules for creating the original characters.
 
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ManaByte

Gold Member
Do you have any sources that can either show how the rumour is incorrect or confirm it?

I'm seeing talk that he still earns for the use of characters he created as per Writer's Guild rules, which makes sense to me but I can't find anything concrete.

TROS Spoiler:

Han is in the movie.
 
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ManaByte

Gold Member
So my post above about the Writers Guild rules is incorrect?

He might get some pennies here and there, but the YouTube BS about him getting 25% of Star Wars is BS.

Lucas created Obi-Wan, but they're making a new Obi-Wan series. So that stuff about them killing off the characters because of him isn't true. And that spoiler above also shows they'll still use the legacy characters.
 
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Doom85

Member
Do you have any sources that can either show how the rumour is incorrect or confirm it?

I'm seeing talk that he still earns for the use of characters he created as per Writer's Guild rules, which makes sense to me but I can't find anything concrete.

Even if he does earn a portion, it was stated that Disney already made a profit from the sale before 7 even came out on merch, Rebels, etc. alone. I have trouble imagining they would feel the need to do this. Besides, why bother? I HIGHLY doubt Lando will make an appearance in anything in the verse's timeline after 9, to a lesser extent same with Chewie, R2, And C-3PO. Killing them would accomplish nothing.

Also, why would they start an Obi-Wan TV series of all things, or do a Solo film, or have a shit ton of OT characters in Rogue One, etc. if this was the case? There's too many holes in this rumor (the "killing off all the originals" part, not the royalties part).

Edit: sorry, didn't see Mana had already clarified things
 
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Man, I really hope they have found a way to make this a proper send off for the "Saga".

I feel like this could have been done.. but TLJ just did nothing with its huge run-time to setup this next movie. I am still naively hopeful that RotS will somehow make TLJ better in retrospect.
 

Nymphae

Banned
R2, And C-3PO. Killing them would accomplish nothing.

Well they barely use these guys anymore as is, shameful omission. R2 was one of my favourite robots in all of media, and to just leave him in a hanger bay for 2 movies is outrageously ridiculous I think. I've stated before I think those droids were the very key to linking these two generations of trilogies - they can appear on screen exactly as they did back then, and most fans have a lot of love for both of them. They should have had more prominent roles.
 
Well they barely use these guys anymore as is, shameful omission. R2 was one of my favourite robots in all of media, and to just leave him in a hanger bay for 2 movies is outrageously ridiculous I think. I've stated before I think those droids were the very key to linking these two generations of trilogies - they can appear on screen exactly as they did back then, and most fans have a lot of love for both of them. They should have had more prominent roles.

Really the whole misuse of the OT cast is a shame. I suppose of anything, the Falcon got the best treatment. But you're right, the Droids don't age.. there is no real reason they couldn't have been more involved. Someone just got too high on their own BB-8 farts I think.
 

Doom85

Member
I actually felt their inclusion in the prequels was ridiculous. Okay, Obi-Wan lying to Luke about Anakin is one thing, but why lie about his connection to R2* ("I don't seem to remember owning a droid")? Wouldn't have given anything away about the truth regarding Anakin. Either that, or Obi-Wan suffers from a very selective case of Alzheimer's. As for C-3PO, Anakin already had a unreasonable skill set at the age of fucking nine, really didn't need to add building a complex droid to the list. Not to mention the worst jokes in Star Wars to me are those lame puns he makes in Episode 2. I guess George Lucas saw Batman and Robin and was like, "lame puns that take like seconds to think up and even a child would roll their eyes at? Why, my movie totally needs that!"

Same thing with Yoda running into Chewie. I'm willing to ignore convenient meet-ups when the plot needs it, but the plot does not require Yoda to meet Chewie. So it just comes off as fanservice pandering. I'm fine with logical inclusions (like Tarkin and Vader naturally fit in Rogue One) but the prequels should have kept it to Anakin, Obi-Wan, Palpatine, and Yoda in terms of OT character appearances.

*some say Obi-Wan simply considered R2 a friend and not "property", but there's nothing in the movies to suggest they were that close or that Obi-Wan thought of droids that way. So it's really just Lucas forgot Obi-Wan said that in 4 (since he also forgot Leia said she remembered her mother a bit in 6)
 

Nymphae

Banned
I actually felt their inclusion in the prequels was ridiculous.

Hard to blame them for using existing fan favourite characters that people already had attachments to, in a prequel, where they would have existed. Far more excusable than simply not using them like, at all, in your new trilogy that links OT to a new generation.
 
*some say Obi-Wan simply considered R2 a friend and not "property", but there's nothing in the movies to suggest they were that close or that Obi-Wan thought of droids that way. So it's really just Lucas forgot Obi-Wan said that in 4 (since he also forgot Leia said she remembered her mother a bit in 6)

I have no clue how the droid naming system would even work properly in the Star Wars universe.. you're telling my NO ONE else is going to name their droid R2-D2? Like a gamertag it was taken once and then never used again? After thousands of years would we have a FaintColt388301 type of Droid name situation going on?

Assuming Droid identification names are re-used.. it'd be damn hard to tell them apart since most of them look very similar.
 
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Sub_Level

wants to fuck an Asian grill.
I actually felt their inclusion in the prequels was ridiculous. Okay, Obi-Wan lying to Luke about Anakin is one thing, but why lie about his connection to R2* ("I don't seem to remember owning a droid")?

To be fair he didn't own R2. It was Anakin's droid and I assume he didn't pay much attention to it one way or the other. R2 droids were dime a dozen during that time period. It also makes sense for R2 to be an older model since Luke & his uncle look at it like its a hunk of junk.

C3PO on the other hand I agree with you. Literally created by Darth Vader as a kid? Lol naw get that shit out of here fam.
 

cryptoadam

Banned
175 million.

Lower than TFA and TLJ couldnt even crack 200 million.

Unless legs are super amazing this is closer to a billion than 1.5 billion.

Oh and apparently its bombing in china so no yuen to save Disney.

There is no way Disney is not disappointed if this thing just crosses a billie. Its the end of the Skywalker saga it shouldn't struggle to pass 1.2 billion.
 

BadBurger

Is 'That Pure Potato'

He still has billions of dollars mostly from sales of merchandise. Billions. Just think about how many hundreds of millions of dollars are in a single billion.

Also what was really cool, is Lucas gave everything Disney paid him to charity. Funding for education I think.
 

#Phonepunk#

Banned
really weird that Rotten Tomatoes audience score is still 86%. i checked it 4-5 times yesterday and it never changed. thousands of new reviews come in and it still sits exactly at that percentage. weird.
 

Croatoan

They/Them A-10 Warthog
They need to wait a few years and then reboot with Knights of the Old Republic. Just adapt the game's plot into the first movie complete with the revan twist in the third act. Also pay the Russo brothers whatever they want to do a trilogy and keep your executive's hands off.

Would be cool to have like 30 jedi and sith all fighting at once on screen in the second or third movie. The Russo's know how to nail spectacle.
 
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NeoGiffer

Member
They need to wait a few years and then reboot with Knights of the Old Republic. Just adapt the game's plot into the first movie complete with the revan twist in the third act. Also pay the Russo brothers whatever they want to do a trilogy and keep your executive's hands off.

Would be cool to have like 30 jedi and with all fighting at once on screen in the second or third movie. The Russo's know how to nail spectacle.

giphy.gif
 

cryptoadam

Banned
We know Hollywoke would never do this but the movie should of reversed the roles. Ben should of been the star and we should of followed his training under Luke. Rey should of been Darth Rey and she still could of been Palps granddaugher/daughter/clone etc....

Its not a WOMANZ hating thing, but the honest truth is SW main fan base is male. And men can fantasy power play through another men over a women. I highly doubt little boys across the world are saying they want to play with Rey action figures or dress up as Rey for Halloween, meanwhile in the 80's Luke Skywalker was the coolest shit.
 

eot

Banned
I dunno, Rey is fine I think, despite all the problems with the writing. I'd be up for another movie with her, whereas the rest of the cast (except Kylo) can jump in a sarlacc pit for all I care.
 
They need to wait a few years and then reboot with Knights of the Old Republic. Just adapt the game's plot into the first movie complete with the revan twist in the third act. Also pay the Russo brothers whatever they want to do a trilogy and keep your executive's hands off.

Would be cool to have like 30 jedi and sith all fighting at once on screen in the second or third movie. The Russo's know how to nail spectacle.
I'd rather they just canonize the games. Disney and Kennedy is going to ruin the film adaption.
 

cryptoadam

Banned
I dunno, Rey is fine I think, despite all the problems with the writing. I'd be up for another movie with her, whereas the rest of the cast (except Kylo) can jump in a sarlacc pit for all I care.

I don't think Rey is bad persay, and like you said she was "fine" (would of been better if she was a hot Asian with big boobs of course). But I think overall it was the wrong move since these movies are power fantasies for young boys and man babies.

Bottom line people go to movies for entertainment and escapism and to put themselves into the characters shoes. And boys will have an easier time doing that with male characters over female characters and vice versa. Its why Disney princess are a thing. Because little girls like to watch Frozen and imagine themselves as Elsa. Now lets make Frozen 3 and have Elsa be a big burly man I doubt many little girls will be dressing up as Tom and buying Disney Prince costumes and toys.

I am not blaming or saying Rey was the problem. And Lucas has been on this female kick for a while. I know he had it as his original idea and if I am not mistaken he even wanted an indy movie with indy's daughter in it. I just think the appeal of the movie would of reached its target audience better if Ben Solo was the main character and boys/man babies could identify with Ben's journey, while having to deal with being tempted by a sexy female. Its very biblical in nature. The OT dealt with males and their relationship to their fathers, and the ST could of been about Ben's relationship with an estranged Han, his father like figure in Luke, and the temptation and allure of eating the apple/dark side/sexy ass (with big boobs) lady.
 

Hinedorf

Banned
The more time I get away from the criticism conversations and just go back to remembering it's a movie about space wizards I end up feeling it gave me everything I really needed.

There's no way this movie will classify as a bomb. The reality is the movies may be the weakest content being produced but the Star Wars comics have been better/as good as the big Marvel titles for the last several years. The recent release of Jedi: Fallen Order is the best single player Star Wars release in over a decade. Mandalorian already feels better than the entire new trilogy.

Star Wars is in great shape with tons of fantastic secondary content, the reality is artists don't and haven't made movies for a long time, lawyers do. There's plenty of avenues for great new content if you want it.
 
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sol_bad

Member
We know Hollywoke would never do this but the movie should of reversed the roles. Ben should of been the star and we should of followed his training under Luke. Rey should of been Darth Rey and she still could of been Palps granddaugher/daughter/clone etc....

Nah, Ben is absolutely one of the best things about the newest trilogy.
It honestly is everything that the characterisation of Darth Vader should have been in hindsight. Anakin's transition to dark and back to light was way too easy. The OT has no scenes where Vader and Luke get to know each other, there is zero connection there, no relationship building at all and Vader just flips a switch and turns good again. No emotional connection, was there an emotional connection back in 1983? I wouldn't have a clue because I was 1 year old.
It was great seeing the struggle in Ben throughout the 3 films, it was real.
:)
 
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Hinedorf

Banned
Nah, Ben is absolutely one of the best things about the newest trilogy.
It honestly is everything that the characterisation of Darth Vader should have been in hindsight. Anakin's transition to dark and back to light was way too easy. The OT has no scenes where Vader and Luke get to know each other, there is zero connection there, no relationship building at all and Vader just flips a switch and turns good again. No emotional connection, was there an emotional connection back in 1983? I wouldn't have a clue because I was 1 year old.
It was great seeing the struggle in Ben throughout the 3 films, it was real.
:)

100% agree, he's the only character that had any range at all. 2 trilogies (1-6) were built on one character arc Anakin/Vader.

This trilogy however you want to see it was about Ben/Kylo, child prodigy felt betrayed by teacher, seduced/manipulated to do the bidding of evil, redeems himself, saves the savior. He's literally Darth Vader in 3 movies rather than 6.

Self Edit - He also acted like an emo pussy several times but if you can stop blaster fire midair I'll be damned to criticize anything you do.
 
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cryptoadam

Banned
Nah, Ben is absolutely one of the best things about the newest trilogy.
It honestly is everything that the characterisation of Darth Vader should have been in hindsight. Anakin's transition to dark and back to light was way too easy. The OT has no scenes where Vader and Luke get to know each other, there is zero connection there, no relationship building at all and Vader just flips a switch and turns good again. No emotional connection, was there an emotional connection back in 1983? I wouldn't have a clue because I was 1 year old.
It was great seeing the struggle in Ben throughout the 3 films, it was real.
:)

Thats why it would of been better to be his trilogy rather than Rey's. You could of still had that fight within him. TBH the whole flashback story of Luke training Ben and thinking he will be bad and almost killing him would of made a better 3 movies than what we got with Rey is super Jedi and grand daughter of Palps but pretends that Leia/Luke are her parents.

Ben was the best thing as the quasi villian, if he was the hero and main character then imagine how much better the entire 3 movies would of been. More Ben, less Rey. And make him someone the audience could root for during all 3 movies and not just the last hour of the 3rd one.

As far as Vader goes, ya there wasn't really an emotional connections per say, but thats because Lucas came up with the idea after the 1st movie. But the idea of turning Vader was something Luke wanted to do through out ROTJ and he kept talking about there still being good in his father etc... And you didn't need a big set up you could tell the conflict in Vader through the film making.
 
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