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Opinion Analysis Hardware Without any details, I Feel 'Lockhart' Will (In Some Way) Hold Back The More Ambitious Next-Generation Games...

LED Guy?

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***HUGE DISCLAIMER***

Please read my WHOLE COMMENT BEFORE MAKING ANY INCONCLUSIVE OR ANY DRIVE-BY COMMENT AND PLEASE GUYS, STOP ACTING TOXIC!

Now that we all got that out of the way, I just watched Rand Al Thor 19's video he uploaded some hours ago and he (as well as Jez Corden, Brad Sams) knows all about the Xbox Lockhart or what will be called as Xbox Series S and supposedly it will be announced in May 2020, so it will be soon and we will hear about this cheaper console.

I feel that this console will dampen down or hamper some of the things that some developers might want to do (I'M TALKING ABOUT THE MORE AMBITIOUS GAMES), I'm sorry, but lower clocked CPU and "way lower RAM amount" (As Jason Schreier said) and way lower GPU power will hamper some of the developers' visions, now we've heard that developers DO NOT want the Xbox Lockhart because it will dumb down some of their visions and this is what Jason Schreier told two times already.

I do not think that "just lower the resolution and it will work" will work or scale linearly, what if a game is designed to run at 1800p or 1620p on Xbox Series X, what will the Series S run at? 720p? 560p???

What about Ray Tracing? etc etc.....

Just the fact that some developers will have to keep it in their minds will make some sacrifices to games, maybe there'll be games that are targeting lower resolutions than 4K on XSX, they'll lower the graphics of the base game itself, not the resolution, because they'll have to target the console, that's what I'm afraid of.

That is why I am not on the Lockhart train and I hope it dies.

This is Rand's video about it by the way:
What are your guys' opinions? Discuss below! 😀

Forgot to add Bo_Hazem Bo_Hazem I wanna see your opinions, man!
 
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LED Guy?

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If you look at games released on pc then you would be wrong. So i think this would be the same.
You would be right BUT if you really think about it, it ain't like that a 100%, just the fact that some developers will have to keep it in their minds will make some sacrifices to games, maybe there'll be games that are targeting lower resolutions than 4K on XSX, they'll lower the graphics of the base game itself, not the resolution, because they'll have to target the console, that's what I'm afraid of.
 
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quickwhips

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You would be right if you really think about it, it ain't like that a 100%, just the fact that some developers will have to keep it in their minds will make some sacrifices to games, maybe there'll be games that are targeting lower resolutions than 4K on XSX, they'll lower the graphics of the base game itself, not the resolution, because they'll have to target the console, that's what I'm afraid of.
I still think series s was canceled but It wouldnt bother me either was as i would buy this for my sons room with a 1080p tv he already has.
 

OSC

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aren't xbox first parties also going to run on xbox one for the first two years? at least these titles are likely to be held back by xbox one.

Horizon couldn't implement flight on ps4 because the hdd was too slow. It is likely similarly some gameplay mechanics making use of the ssd might not be implementable on xbox first party games.
 

Grinchy

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It's hard to say without really knowing the specs, but it seems really obvious that having to cater to weaker hardware first will hold back the stronger hardware in some way.

People are only pretending to believe in the "games scale down easily" nonsense because Microsoft is pretending all next-gen games will be playable on the current-gen xbox. In reality, they are a year behind and are just upscaling current gen games for the XSX until they can get their real XSX software finished. You have to believe in scaling down magic if you are only buying a new Xbox.
 
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Bo_Hazem

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Salalah, Oman
It's hard to speculate, if you want to make it a 1080p gaming console that can provide next gen aspects, then expect at least $350 with no loss/barely any profit. Now let's say that Sony has to cut $50 from the rumored BOM ($450) and sell it at $399, is XSX going to sell at $399 and eat up $70-120 of the rumored BOM ($470-520)? If so, how can you justify the XSS at $350? Are you gonna eat another $50 there? What is your projected production plan you provided AMD with? You have a large APU that shares nothing with the small APU, then they are 2 unique SKU's.

With PS4 and PS4 Pro situation, it makes lots of sense as it's a chiplet of 2x PS4 computes and other attached elements:



You can notice the width in PS4 Pro, and here is PS4 Slim



A PS5 Pro down the line in 2024 would make lots of sense in the same butterfly technique, although you deactivate more CU's than usual (8 CU's here out of 80 CU's = 72 CU's) you still use a much cheaper solution with better, cheaper yields overall.

That's how I understood it, tech people around here should provide more precise answers for this matter. Overall, I think XSS is way too dangerous for Xbox division, Sony could come up with a wild launch price that will put them in a lot of trouble.

EDIT: Making 2 SKU's should raise the BOM of XSX much higher than it is, closer to $600.
 
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LED Guy?

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It's hard to say without really knowing the specs, but it seems really obvious that having to cater to weaker hardware first will hold back the stronger hardware in some way.

People are only pretending to believe in the "games scale down easily" nonsense because Microsoft is pretending all next-gen games will be playable on the current-gen xbox. In reality, they are a year behind and are just upscaling current gen games for the XSX until they can get their real XSX software finished. You have to believe in scaling down magic if you are only buying a new Xbox.
YES! THANK YOU!! For writing this awesome comment, I agree a 100%!
 

Hawke502

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aren't xbox first parties also going to run on xbox one for the first two years? at least these titles are likely to be held back by xbox one.

Horizon couldn't implement flight on ps4 because the hdd was too slow. It is likely similarly some gameplay mechanics making use of the ssd might not be implementable on xbox first party games.
this is a misconception, at the time of the interview matt said the xbox one would still be supported two years from now, he said that one year before the launch of the series X.
 

OSC

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LED Guy?

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Ya I remember how the 360 version of Rise of the tomb raider really held back the other versions. I mean it was obvious guys. ;)
Yup it really was, especially when you compared it to games that release a little before it and a little after it, games like Uncharted 4, The Order 1886 and Batman Arkham Knight made it feel like a last-generation game compared to it.
 
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bumleforce

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Yup it really was, especially when you compared it to games that release a little before it and a little after it, games like Uncharted 4, The Order 1886 and Batman Arkham Knight made it feel like a last-generation game compared to it.

Ya thats a damn lie,Rise was better than both uncharted 4 and the order $18.86 Batman I ant say I sadly haven't played it..
 

Uzupedro

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I have to disagree, Rise is a beautiful game of course, but overall I think UC4 stands out, you could argue that in some areas Rise is better, but as I said, overall UC4 is superior
Ya thats a damn lie,Rise was better than both uncharted 4 and the order $18.86 Batman I ant say I sadly haven't played it..
 

LED Guy?

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Ya thats a damn lie,Rise was better than both uncharted 4 and the order $18.86 Batman I ant say I sadly haven't played it..
Yo you gotta be kidding yourself at this point, Rise of the Tomb Raider looked great but nowhere near Batman or The Order 1886 or Uncharted 4 or Horizon Zero Dawn, Sony exclusives have the best advancements from the gameplay and graphics standpoints, just accept it, deal with it.

Rise of the TR is held back and it really shows...
 

Sosokrates

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Considering the new advancements in dlss technology i think Lockhart will be fine.
Especially if they can get it around 5tflops.
If they can get it to 5tflop, it will be about 1/2 the PS5's performance, so Lockhart will be like how the PS4 was to the pro.

Even if late in the gen ps5 games are 1440p Lockhart will be able to do 1080p or even 720p and dlss could increase that to a decent 1440p.
 
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Ten_Fold

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I feel the specs will probably be higher than what's rumored, might legit be 9tflops, no disc drive, an will probably be $100 less than the Series X. Just depends if they will hold the console back or launch in November.
 

Neo_game

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Absolutely. This is not good and sort of makes Xbox most powerful argument silly at the same time. We are going to get games developed for weaker console and basically they are going to use the extra power of other consoles for resolution. May be RT and few other settings will be different but multiplat games will get compromised.
 

Tamy

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Oh, OP, do you feel so? Poor OP, don't be so concerned.

Crysis Remastered is being released on Nintendo Switch.
If anything, Switch will held back anything until the coming years. So, no OP, you are simply wrong.

Also, We do not even know if the Series S will be even released, who knows? Why don't we wait until it's released or at least announced before making such threads? I have the feeling that

Xbox One already will do that...
No, the Switch will do it, or the PS4 as well.


that's an article from january of this year, saying series x won't see exclusives for the next two years. edit: that means all launch titles and all titles in 2021.
No, this is wrong. And you are spreading FUD. He is only talking about XBOX STUDIOS GAMES.

All Third Party devs are free to develop XBOX SERIES X only games DAY ONE.

He only talked about XBOX Studios, that THEIR games will on XBOX ONE too for the FIRST YEAR of the Series X. So, can you please stop spreading FUD?

OP is just trying to change the narrative of Xbox, so that xbox is not the most powerful console anymore, but instead the weakest and will even held back everything, which is beyond ridiculous. I think it's even worse than this thread: https://www.neogaf.com/threads/it-seems-to-me-that-sony-cerny-chose-higher-quality-accessories-console-design-over-a-higher-teraflops-count-a-risky-move.1536590/
 

OSC

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Oh, OP, do you feel so? Poor OP, don't be so concerned.

Crysis Remastered is being released on Nintendo Switch.
If anything, Switch will held back anything until the coming years. So, no OP, you are simply wrong.

Also, We do not even know if the Series S will be even released, who knows? Why don't we wait until it's released or at least announced before making such threads? I have the feeling that



No, the Switch will do it, or the PS4 as well.



No, this is wrong. And you are spreading FUD. He is only talking about XBOX STUDIOS GAMES.

All Third Party devs are free to develop XBOX SERIES X only games DAY ONE.

He only talked about XBOX Studios, that THEIR games will on XBOX ONE too for the FIRST YEAR of the Series X. So, can you please stop spreading FUD?

OP is just trying to change the narrative of Xbox, so that xbox is not the most powerful console anymore, but instead the weakest and will even held back everything, which is beyond ridiculous. I think it's even worse than this thread: https://www.neogaf.com/threads/it-seems-to-me-that-sony-cerny-chose-higher-quality-accessories-console-design-over-a-higher-teraflops-count-a-risky-move.1536590/
Earlier in the thread I specified it was first party titles.
aren't xbox first parties also going to run on xbox one for the first two years? at least these titles are likely to be held back by xbox one.

Horizon couldn't implement flight on ps4 because the hdd was too slow. It is likely similarly some gameplay mechanics making use of the ssd might not be implementable on xbox first party games.
And I would like to see the actual quote. Because for first two years, means two different things depending on if it is for first two years from when he spoke(that wouldn't be first two years as articles are mentioning but instead next two years) or first two years of series x which would make his time of saying it irrelevant.

Either articles are misleading by saying first two years and should have said next two years or he actually said first two years of series x will be without first party exclusives.

edit:
"As our content comes out over the next year, two years, all of our games, sort of like PC, will play up and down that family of devices," Booty said. eurogamer
That seems to suggest both 2020 and 2021 will be without first party exclusives
 
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Tamy

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Earlier in the thread I specified it was first party titles.

And I would like to see the actual quote. Because for first two years, means two different things depending on if it is for first two years from when he spoke(that wouldn't be first two years as articles are mentioning but instead next two years) or first two years of series x which would make his time of saying it irrelevant.

Either articles are misleading by saying first two years and should have said next two years or he actually said first two years of series x will be without first party exclusives.

edit:


That seems to suggest both 2020 and 2021 will be without first party exclusives
Can you not read, or why is it so hard?

“As our content comes (OUR CONTENT = XBOX STUDIOS, does NOT include 3rd Party) out over the next year, two years (Nov 2019, next two years = Nov 2021), all of our games, sort of like PC, will play up and down that family of devices,” Booty explains. “We want to make sure that if someone invests in Xbox between now and [Series X] that they feel that they made a good investment and that we’re committed to them with content."

Why is this so hard to understand? And why is this even a bad thing? Imagine someone buys a PS4 PRO right NOW, then what? He won't be getting any support from sony anymore as soon as PS5 launches? Is this better? Is this costumer friendly?
 

Kagey K

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Until there is any sort of confirmation Lockheart even exists, it doesn’t hurt anything.

After seeing the “leaks” on the system specs, I wouldn’t believe another “insider” ever. Maybe Lockheart was early planning or an intentional leak to make people think they were doing more or less then they actually were.
 

OSC

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Can you not read, or why is it so hard?

“As our content comes (OUR CONTENT = XBOX STUDIOS, does NOT include 3rd Party) out over the next year, two years (Nov 2019, next two years = Nov 2021), all of our games, sort of like PC, will play up and down that family of devices,” Booty explains. “We want to make sure that if someone invests in Xbox between now and [Series X] that they feel that they made a good investment and that we’re committed to them with content."

Why is this so hard to understand? And why is this even a bad thing? Imagine someone buys a PS4 PRO right NOW, then what? He won't be getting any support from sony anymore as soon as PS5 launches? Is this better? Is this costumer friendly?
you can support the previous generation without making all games be available in the previous generation.
 

CatLady

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Can you not read, or why is it so hard?

“As our content comes (OUR CONTENT = XBOX STUDIOS, does NOT include 3rd Party) out over the next year, two years (Nov 2019, next two years = Nov 2021), all of our games, sort of like PC, will play up and down that family of devices,” Booty explains. “We want to make sure that if someone invests in Xbox between now and [Series X] that they feel that they made a good investment and that we’re committed to them with content."

Why is this so hard to understand? And why is this even a bad thing? Imagine someone buys a PS4 PRO right NOW, then what? He won't be getting any support from sony anymore as soon as PS5 launches? Is this better? Is this costumer friendly?
This has been pointed out and explained endlessly. It's not at all difficult to understand. There are just certain fans of a particular plastic box that continuously and willfully choose to ignore it so they can put forth a false narrative.
 

gamerforever

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I do find it a bit contradictory that Microsoft have the most powerful console, but want to get games released on lesser hardware. As it is their first party lineup is thin and they want developers wasting time on making games for the one x. Games may look much better on the series x by say, 2022, but by then the ps5 to xbox series x/c/whatever will be 10-1. Microsoft need exclusive show stoppers from day one to convince people to buy their new console. Unfortunately they have none. Halo has been average since the original, and forza, whilst great is just not gran turismo.
 

Magik85

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I do not think that "just lower the resolution and it will work" will work or scale linearly, what if a game is designed to run at 1800p or 1620p on Xbox Series X, what will the Series S run at? 720p? 560p???
Actually as DF tests showed, lowering resolution should do the job just fine.
4K series X game running at FHD on lockheart would have quite a headroom left.
So i guess it would be more like:
4K on X = dynamic 1440p on S
1800p on X = 1080p on S
1620?....arent we talking about ambitious games? ;-)
But jokes aside. Majority of games on ONE X targets 1800 or higher so i dont think the SERIES X is going to run game on lower resolution.
 
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Kagey K

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Actually as DF tests showed, lowering resolution should do the job just fine.
4K series X game running at FHD on lockheart would have quite a headroom left.
So i guess it would be more like:
4K on X = dynamic 1440p on S
1800p on X = 1080p on S
1620?....arent we talking about ambitious games? ;-)
But jokes aside. Majority of games on ONE X targets 1800 or higher so i dont think the SERIES X is going to run game on lower resolution.
With a good TV and VRR you aren’t going to see framerate skips and screen tearing anyways,

Thankfully MS was forward thinking by including HDMI 2.1 on the X.
 
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SenjutsuSage

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No, it will not. The same core CPU and GPU architecture will be present in both. The RAM being potentially a little less will also be a non-issue. They'll have a console that's easily a lot more powerful than the Xbox One X, only it will be targeting 1080p/1440p resolutions.

In fact, it will be able to do better than 1080p/1440p, but that's not the target. In other words, don't set your hairs on fire. This is a non issue. Nothing about next gen will be held back, and if you actually believe that, then wait till we all see the games. If it isn't an issue on PC, it damn sure will not be an issue on these new consoles. And I don't wanna hear about how the situation is different, because lockhart will have the same sSD and I/O setup as Series X. Same damn game, much lower resolutions, potentially slightly lower graphics settings.

Any game the Series X can handle, lockhart will be able to handle, just at lower resolutions because the features are all there.
 

scalman

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Its allways the weakest link that keeps all other parts performe worse then it could. Same here . More work for.devs and most devs wont care to make different builds for different consoles so we will have ports. Thats why exclusives allways shines.
 
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Panajev2001a

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No, it will not. The same core CPU and GPU architecture will be present in both. The RAM being potentially a little less will also be a non-issue. They'll have a console that's easily a lot more powerful than the Xbox One X, only it will be targeting 1080p/1440p resolutions.

In fact, it will be able to do better than 1080p/1440p, but that's not the target. In other words, don't set your hairs on fire. This is a non issue. Nothing about next gen will be held back, and if you actually believe that, then wait till we all see the games. If it isn't an issue on PC, it damn sure will not be an issue on these new consoles. And I don't wanna hear about how the situation is different, because lockhart will have the same sSD and I/O setup as Series X. Same damn game, much lower resolutions, potentially slightly lower graphics settings.

Any game the Series X can handle, lockhart will be able to handle, just at lower resolutions because the features are all there.
We will need to see the final games, but this does hinge on a few points that are not settled yet:
1.) PC games are not held back by low tier HW —> PC and mobile phones are generally where the flooring floating minimum common denominator and brute force IQ improvements pattern comes from (more and more games are developed targeting current consoles first and foremost... really you think that if you were making an exclusive Core i9 + 2080Ti + 32 GB RAM exclusive game for 3-4 years you would not hit a much higher target?!?)

2.) If the final performance target were really 4 TFLOPS RDNA2 (vs 12 TFLOPS) the argument made around GPGPU performance (which yes has its nuances as thicc_girls_are_teh_best thicc_girls_are_teh_best was discussing in another thread) that is not necessarily resolution dependent brings interesting points to the table (you may to drop resolution in primary and secondary buffers even further to free compute time unless you had enough free async compute time)

3.) The more configurations you support the more you need to add complexity to the codebase and spend time in QA which is time and resources taken away from R&D on the game itself. Nothing is free.
 
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BigLee74

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Holy fuck.

Yet another 'mock concern' thread by a renowned Sony fanboy, attempting to discuss stuff already discussed in countless other threads, and with a cheeky 'no driveby/toxic comments' specification (because OP knows exactly what nest he's trying to shake).

IMO, this kind of thread is toxic by itself.

If you must worry your precious little heart, worry more about the countless millions PS4 and Xbox ones out there. These 7 year old machines are much more likely to stifle new game development than this non-confirmed machine ever could.