Support NeoGAF

[poppabk]

I'm lost.

At what point does "trans women using women's bathrooms" and "trans men using men's bathrooms" make the bathrooms genderless?

I think the question is - is it OK to question someone's presence in a 'gendered' location based on a perception that they are not the appropriate gender?

 

[A Link to the Past]

I think the question is - is it OK to question someone's presence in a 'gendered' location based on a perception that they are not the appropriate gender?

Basically, no. There is no evidence that allowing trans people to access the appropriate restrooms or changing area has resulted in any increased risk of rape, sexual assault, or harassment by cis men posing as trans women.

 

[LaserBuddha]

Unisex/gender bathrooms would be a reasonable compromise IMO for a decade or so until people chill. Would suck for transgender females who are uncomfortable around men, but that should at least bridge the empathy gap from both sides.

Why compromise?

Its up to society to accept people's gender identities. Its not up to trans people to steer wide of cis-gendered people until there are no crazy assholes complaining about them.

What would happen if we had kept segregation until "people chill"? People still aren't chill. I realize this gym issue is not nearly on the level of racial segregation, but how is accommodating small-minded people until they come around going to suddenly work this time? And how is a creating a third category of locker room going to do anything but make trans even less normalized than it is now?

 

[cosmicblizzard]

I REALLY hesistate to use the word easy.

Some aspect of it are. However I can get a functioning vagina through surgery and while that is great, there are still so many downsides that most TransMen can't get that area done so even physically its not 100%.

Plus there are always variation on how Hormones interact with the body, but some TransMen will find it smoother to go from pre Hormone to post.

As for the Bathroom I don't think they should be forced or expected to do anything. There is such a thing as Stealth for trans, and that is where you don't show it and I will use me as an example.

As you can see in my picture I am a woman (ugly looks aside lol) and I live every day like that and present like that and have huge bill because of my chest.

I could be the exact same mentally though and could have choosen to stay looking like a man, be a body builder, short hair, facial hair and use male facilities.

The Man in your scenario could very well choose the second route simply out of fear and not even from physical violence. I lost my entire parental side of my family when I came out and in this day an age an out TransMan or Woman is likely going to not be able to just stealth at time.

Of course saying "easy" may undermine the hardships associated with transitioning. I'm mostly ignorant on the FTM transition and lifestyle, so I apologize if I said anything offensive.

All very interesting information. Thank you.

 

[Beth Cyra]

Of course saying "easy" may undermine the hardships associated with transitioning. I'm mostly ignorant on the FTM transition and lifestyle, so I apologize if I said anything offensive.

All very interesting information. Thank you.

Not at all Cosmic.

If anything you're more then welcome to ask any question you like, it was me who didn't want to be offensive to any Trans Man or Woman who feel differently then I do.

 

[LaserBuddha]

What you're describing is so cartoonishly unrealistic that I wouldn't be surprised if your perception of reality is from TV.

More like National Lampoon college movies.

 

[Wiktor]

Why compromise?

Its up to society to accept people's gender identities. Its not up to trans people to steer wide of cis-gendered people until there are no crazy assholes complaining about them.

What would happen if we had kept segregation until "people chill"? People still aren't chill. I realize this gym issue is not nearly on the level of racial segregation, but how is accommodating small-minded people until they come around going to suddenly work this time? And how is a creating a third category of locker room going to do anything but make trans even less normalized than it is now?

The point of segregated lockerrooms isn't to keep people to limit them to people who feel like specific gender. It's simply to keep naked women from close to people with penises when they don't want to.
When people fibnally accept other people's gender indentities it will also there;s no more reason to keep segregated lockerrooms. At most you should just do closed stalls for those who want privacy from anyone, regardless of their gender. If all that's left is that third kind of lockerrooms then it won't be segregation anymore.

 

[esms]

Amazingly enough, saying bigoted things like "what if men pose as women to peep???" and "penis = man, vagina = woman, deal with it" are often called bigots.

I hope the irony of this statement is not lost on you.

 

[A Link to the Past]

The point of segregated lockerrooms isn't to keep people to limit them to people who feel like specific gender. It's simply to keep naked women from close to people with penises when they don't want to.
When people fibnally accept other people's gender indentities it will also there;s no more reason to keep segregated lockerrooms. At most you should just do closed stalls for those who want privacy from anyone, regardless of their gender. If all that's left is that third kind of lockerrooms then it won't be segregation anymore.

Accommodating people who are unwilling or unable to understand gender stuff hurts trans people and makes it take longer to reach equality. Forcing people out of their comfort zone is always necessary for progress. We didn't wait for people to be okay with black people or gay people.

I hope the irony of this statement is not lost on you.

What are you talking about? I called people who are worried about something that doesn't happen and has no evidence that it will ever happen bigots, and I called people who feel that their contrary views to gender experts' are equally valid bigots. Are you implying that I'm a bigot for doing either?

 

[MisterGrey3000]

And yet people do it.

You certainly seem to have a lot more faith that all people will be good and honest than I do.

AFAICT that poster doesn't seem to have faith that this isn't a thing..people like you who are suggesting that this might be a problem worth looking into are working on no substantial evidence and the faith that a good chunk of straight men/boys are idiot perverts.

A crossdressing peeping tom has probably already happened in some capacity, but it must not be that big of a problem seeing as we already live in a world where gender non-conforming (at least in terms of their gender expressions/behavior) straight men/boys use women's restrooms/changing rooms as safe spaces to relieve themselves, do their makeup, fix their hair, or try on clothing all the time; if cis guys waiting to pretend to be trans women was a thing, they would have already learned about how they can take advantage of a modern society that already has some understanding of the fact that non-cisnormative people exist and they'll get in trouble for discriminating against them.
As it stands, there is no good evidence that the kind of cis straight guys who would pretend to be trans women just for the sake of staring at titties are nothing more than an incredibly rare or possibly non-existent occurrence that should have no effect on the rights of a completely separate group of people like trans women/girls.

 

[bms2993]

Man if I said anything on here I'd get wiped out. Not even going there.

 

[LaserBuddha]

The point of segregated lockerrooms isn't to keep people to limit them to people who feel like specific gender. It's simply to keep naked women from close to people with penises when they don't want to.
When people fibnally accept other people's gender indentities it will also there;s no more reason to keep segregated lockerrooms. At most you should just do closed stalls for those who want privacy from anyone, regardless of their gender. If all that's left is that third kind of lockerrooms then it won't be segregation anymore.

What about women who don't want lesbians in the locker room? If their demands are unreasonable, why are these other demands reasonable?

And again I ask, how has waiting around for prejudices to naturally die ever worked? People don't get comfortable with trans in the locker room except by encountering trans in the locker room.

Making a third locker room for trans people means not accepting them as their self-identified gender. Not accepting trans people as their self-identified gender (and not that gender with an asterisk, but that actual gender) is completely anathema to accepting them in general. It is not a reasonable solution.

Putting private stalls in locker rooms for anyone who wants them is an acceptable solution. That would be welcome for a lot of people even if transgendered people didnt exist.

 

[Aeana]

Man if I said anything on here I'd get wiped out. Not even going there.

Then why did you even post this?

 

[bms2993]

Then why did you even post this?

That's a good question. It adds nothing of interest to the conversation. Just going to back away now

Edit: Honestly I'm just afraid of being wrong. If I say even one thing by law of nature somebody will disagree.

 

[LaserBuddha]

Man if I said anything on here I'd get wiped out. Not even going there.

You're trying to say something right now without saying something. Have the guts to say what you feel instead of just stating how unfair we would hypothetically be to you.

No one gets banned for outdated perceptions without being a persistent and obstinate dick about them.

EDIT: beaten like the dick of an undercover fratboy infiltrating the girl's locker room.

 

[Wiktor]

Accommodating people who are unwilling or unable to understand gender stuff hurts trans people and makes it take longer to reach equality. Forcing people out of their comfort zone is always necessary for progress. We didn't wait for people to be okay with black people or gay people.

Feelingg uncomforable in shared lockerroom with private stalls isn't normal. No matter if you're trans or not. If we are to expect non-trans women to become ok with trans women with penises then it isn't crazy to expect trans people to show the same level of acceptance to regular people from opposite gender.

One of the main reasons why this issue keeps popping up so much more often in USA is because americans have very unhealthy attitude to nudity and human bodies, and that should change sooner or later.

 

[esms]

What are you talking about? I called people who are worried about something that doesn't happen and has no evidence that it will ever happen bigots, and I called people who feel that their contrary views to gender experts' are equally valid bigots. Are you implying that I'm a bigot for doing either?

No, the peeping in locker rooms I'm with you on.

I just think flippantly throwing around bigot to anyone who may define the gender of someone by their primary sexual characteristics is probably doing more damage to your cause than helping it.

That's all.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Feelingg uncomforable in shared lockerroom with private stalls isn't normal. No matter if you're trans or not. If we are to expect normal women to become ok with trans women with penises then it isn't crazy to expect trans people to show the same level of acceptance to regular people from opposite gender.

One of the main reasons why this issue keeps popping up so much more often in USA is because americans have very unhealthy attitude to nudity and human bodies, and that should change sooner or later.

"Normal women"

Done.

No, the peeping in locker rooms I'm with you on.

I just think flippantly throwing around bigot to anyone who may define the gender of someone by their primary sexual characteristics is probably doing more damage to your cause than helping it.

That's all.

TBF, most people being called bigots in this thread aren't people who deserve to be heard out. People who are effectively saying "think of the children" are making bigoted statements.

 

[Beth Cyra]

That's a good question. It adds nothing of interest to the conversation. Just going to back away now

Edit: Honestly I'm just afraid of being wrong. If I say even one thing by law of nature somebody will disagree.

As a Trans person I don't think there is ever anything asking a question if you want a legitimate answer from either side.

So please ask away and I'd be happy to respond as openly as possible.

 

[Wiktor]

What about women who don't want lesbians in the locker room? If their demands are unreasonable, why are these other demands reasonable?

Oh sure. But what I mean is that if those are unreasonable why is women or men (trans or not) demanding to keep other gender from their locker rooms reasonable? All of them are unreasonable imo.

 

[LaserBuddha]

Feelingg uncomforable in shared lockerroom with private stalls isn't normal. No matter if you're trans or not. If we are to expect normal women to become ok with trans women with penises then it isn't crazy to expect trans people to show the same level of acceptance to regular people from opposite gender.

One of the main reasons why this issue keeps popping up so much more often in USA is because americans have very unhealthy attitude to nudity and human bodies, and that should change sooner or later.

The equivalent to women accepting trans women in the locker room is for trans women to accept women in the locker room, which they clearly. Morally and logically, these are the equivalent concessions here.

You seem to be saying that the equivalent of women accepting trans women in the locker room is for trans women to accept the prejudice against themselves for being there.

A person has a right to be accepted. A person doesn't have a right to have their prejudices accepted. Its pretty simple really.

 

[SuperEpicGuy]

it's not that simple, this is about gender not sex.

But the changerooms are sorted by sex, aren't they? What's to prevent me right now from going into the a female college varsity's changerooms and pretending that I feel female?

No offense, but you seem very ignorant about the subject. Please, educate yourself a little.

Do you think these guys should be in the women's side? They have a vagina.



Secondly, did you read the OP? It says there are private stalls, and it says the transgender woman "blocked" the woman in question. So it's very likely that she was dressed.

Yes I do, vagina = female. I don't care if a womanly looking dude came into the male change room, I have other things to care about.

Alright, so if the girl looked like one of the girls you show above, I'd understand the confusion but it should have been quickly solved once they found out that she doesn't have a penis.

Yeah, I was going to reply to SuperEpicGuy by quoting the same post. In his world then everybody will be happy, and everyone's genitals will match while in the same room.

I'm completely ok with them going into women's changerooms and vice versa.

It's really amazing how people whose understanding of gender is "my mommy told me when I was six", and then they decide that this makes them experts on the level of people who study gender as their career path. Isn't it funny how ignoring science as far as climate change and vaccinations go makes you ignorant, but when people ignore science on gender, it's "just their opinion, gotta respect it!"

Solid ad hominem. I understand acceptance since it's the new thing in 21st century, but simply saying that you feel like a woman doesn't make you one. Simple.

I'm not claiming to be an expert, but it doesn't take a degree to know what classifies as male and what's as female, biologically at least.

Spoiler

In case anyone forgets, this is just my opinion.

 

[LaserBuddha]

But the changerooms are sorted by sex, aren't they? What's to prevent me right now from going into the a female college varsity's changerooms and pretending that I feel female?


Yes I do, vagina = female. I don't care if a womanly looking dude came into the male change room, I have other things to care about.

Alright, so if the girl looked like one of the girls you show above, I'd understand the confusion but it should have been quickly solved once they found out that she doesn't have a penis.


I'm completely ok with them going into women's changerooms and vice versa.


Solid ad hominem. I understand acceptance since it's the new thing in 21st century, but simply saying that you feel like a woman doesn't make you one. Simple.

I'm not claiming to be an expert, but it doesn't take a degree to know what classifies as male and what's as female, biologically at least.

[SPLOILER]In case anyone forgets, this is just my opinion.[/SPOILER]

Opinions are like assholes, but the uninformed ones stink worse.

Please read this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinction

It doesnt take a degree to understand these topics, but it takes a whole lot more than knowing absolutely fucking nothing, which is what you know.

Dont drop your account on a sword when your other option is to learn something and better yourself.

 

[bms2993]

I used to be a bigot about anyone who wasn't straight but now I am friends with someone who is Transgender and one who is gay. There my beat friends so honestly how could I dislike who they are? But I honestly have no idea about the bathroom situation other than if they identify as male or female just let them in either one.

If I offended somebody somehow. I apologize. I didn't mean it in any way.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Solid ad hominem. I understand acceptance since it's the new thing in 21st century, but simply saying that you feel like a woman doesn't make you one. Simple.

I'm not claiming to be an expert, but it doesn't take a degree to know what classifies as male and what's as female, biologically at least.

[SPLOILER]In case anyone forgets, this is just my opinion.[/SPOILER]

Oh, so you feel that gender - a non-biological thing - is determined by biology? That's very interesting! Please tell me more """""""""""scientific facts.""""""""""" What do you think about homosexuality? Isn't it weird how the penis is designed for a vagina, but some guys like other guys, and some girls like other girls? Are they faking, since that goes against biology too?

Oh, and thanks for clarifying that your bigotry is an opinion.

 

[bms2993]

I feel like I'm walking on a land mine field watching mines go off around me.

 

[Wiktor]

"Normal women"

Done.
.

So that's offensive term, eh? I'm sorry then. I just used is as a disctinction between those two groups which were in conflict in OP's story.
What's non offending term anyway? I wondered if I should have written just women, but I felt like this implied trans women somehow weren't ones. I don't live in country with english language as the main one, plus it's one where trans issues rarely appear in public discussions, so subtelities like that are sometimes regretfully lost on me.

 

[Beth Cyra]

I used to be a bigot about anyone who wasn't straight but now I am friends with someone who is Transgender and one who is gay. There my beat friends so honestly how could I dislike who they are? But I honestly have no idea about the bathroom situation other than if they identify as male or female just let them in either one.

If I offended somebody somehow. I apologize. I didn't mean it in any way.

Nah, no need to apologize.

It's an interesting scenario and I think the trans community should and would grant that concession.

If a woman saw what some claim then apprehension is completely valid, it only becomes wrong in my mind after explination and trying to reach our for understanding is met with nastyness and unacceptance.

 

[Kimawolf]

"Normal women"

Done.



TBF, most people being called bigots in this thread aren't people who deserve to be heard out. People who are effectively saying "think of the children" are making bigoted statements.

And that's your problem, and the problem with many people. you're attacking the people instead of the idea. When you attack people whatever viewpoint you're trying to achieve is lost because no one responds well to being attacked. you think someone is a bigot, fine, tear down why their argument is wrong, but just saying "oh you're a bigot for thinking this" does nothing but create unneeded drama and arguments.

 

[A Link to the Past]

So that's offensive term, eh? I'm sorry then. I just used is as a disctinction between those two groups which were in conflict in OP's story.
What's non offending term anyway? I wondered if I should have written just women, but I felt like this implied trans women somehow weren't ones. I don't live in country with english language as the main one, plus it's one where trans issues rarely appear in public discussions, so subtelities like that are sometimes regretfully lost on me.

Cis/cisgender is the appropriate term.

And that's your problem, and the problem with many people. you're attacking the people instead of the idea. When you attack people whatever viewpoint you're trying to achieve is lost because no one responds well to being attacked. you think someone is a bigot, fine, tear down why their argument is wrong, but just saying "oh you're a bigot for thinking this" does nothing but create unneeded drama and arguments.

In discussions like this, there is no level of politeness that will make people like SuperEpicGuy change.

 

[bms2993]

So that's offensive term, eh? I'm sorry then. I just used is as a disctinction between those two groups which were in conflict in OP's story.
What's non offending term anyway? I wondered if I should have written just women, but I felt like this implied trans women somehow weren't ones. I don't live in country with english language as the main one, plus one where trans issues rarely appear in public discussions, so subtelities like that are sometimes regretfully lost on me.

I feel like every word I ever type in this thread is offensive. Tread very carefully.

 

[esms]

TBF, most people being called bigots in this thread aren't people who deserve to be heard out. People who are effectively saying "think of the children" are making bigoted statements.

bigoted |ˈbigətid| - adjective

having or revealing an obstinate belief in the superiority of one's own opinions and a prejudiced intolerance of the opinions of others

Just saying, man.

 

[LaserBuddha]

Just saying, man.

INTOLERANCE OF BIGOTRY IS BIGOTRY OMG MIND BLOWN

 

[A Link to the Past]

Just saying, man.

So the true bigots are people who don't want to hear bigots...

k lol

 

[esms]

INTOLERANCE OF BIGOTRY IS BIGOTRY OMG MIND BLOWN

Why do I even bother?

So the true bigots are people who don't want to hear bigots...

k lol

You are attacking the people with the opinions, and not the opinions themselves. If you had read this entire thread you would know I think gender is fluid. I share your opinion, but I don't share your argumentation style.

 

[Wiktor]

The equivalent to women accepting trans women in the locker room is for trans women to accept women in the locker room, which they clearly. Morally and logically, these are the equivalent concessions here.

You seem to be saying that the equivalent of women accepting trans women in the locker room is for trans women to accept the prejudice against themselves for being there.

A person has a right to be accepted. A person doesn't have a right to have their prejudices accepted. Its pretty simple really.

Keeping locker rooms separated by gender is a form of prejudice in itself and from that prejudice all the subsequent ones involving trans people stem from in this case.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Why do I even bother?



You are attacking the people with the opinions, and not the opinions themselves. If you had read this entire thread you would know I think gender is fluid. I share your opinion, but I don't share your argumentation style.

"I think black people are inherently less intelligent than white people"

"You're racist"

"How dare u, attack the opinion, not the person!"

Agreeing with me doesn't change the fact that you're tone policing. Transphobia is transphobia, racism is racism. I'm not going to tiptoe around what I really think - if you're saying bigoted shit, you're being a bigot.

 

[SuperEpicGuy]

Opinions are like assholes, but the uninformed ones stink worse.

Please read this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinction

It doesnt take a degree to understand these topics, but it takes a whole lot more than knowing absolutely fucking nothing, which is what you know.

Dont drop your account on a sword when your other option is to learn something and better yourself.

Alright, so gender includes gender identity. I didn't know that.
This is generally described as one's private sense of being a man or a woman.
I guess then, going by that, no one should have any issues with me walking into a woman's change rooms. They can't send me to jail or lay charges on me, right? I can just say I feel like a woman.

Oh, so you feel that gender - a non-biological thing - is determined by biology? That's very interesting! Please tell me more """""""""""scientific facts.""""""""""" What do you think about homosexuality? Isn't it weird how the penis is designed for a vagina, but some guys like other guys, and some girls like other girls? Are they faking, since that goes against biology too?

Oh, and thanks for clarifying that your bigotry is an opinion.

? It does go against what evolution designed it to be, but that's because the part of the brain responsible for attraction to specific sexes is switched up in homo people compared to hetero people. Seeing as sexes differ by only 1 chromosome, I can see this easily happening. Not really the person's fault.

 

[esms]

"I think black people are inherently less intelligent than white people"

"You're racist"

"How dare u, attack the opinion, not the person!"

I wish you the best with the rest of the thread, brotha.

 

[A Link to the Past]

? It does go against what evolution designed it to be, but that's because the part of the brain responsible for attraction to specific sexes is switched up in homo people compared to hetero people. Seeing as sexes differ by only 1 chromosome, I can see this easily happening. Not really the person's fault.

So to clarify. Even though experts on gender disagree with you, you think that you are still correct?

 

[LaserBuddha]

Keeping locker rooms separated by gender is a form of prejudice in itself and from that prejudice all the subsequent ones involving trans people stem from in this case.

I think "sexual tension" or or whatever you want to call it is a common and universal enough issue for people that I don't think it's an equivalent issue, and having people with entirely different sexual identities in that environment together is a different topic than banning people from facilities meant for their very own gender.

 

[Weiss]

Alright, so gender includes gender identity. I didn't know that.
This is generally described as one's private sense of being a man or a woman.
I guess then, going by that, no one should have any issues with me walking into a woman's change rooms. They can't send me to jail or lay charges on me, right?

Do you earnestly identify that way or are you just being an asshole? Kind of important.

Why do people always bring up these ridiculous hypotheticals to justify their awful, bigoted views in these threads? Swear to Christ I've seen people defend racist outbursts in the workplace because "if you fire him he won't be able to provide for his family!"

 

[Necromanti]

? It does go against what evolution designed it to be, but that's because the part of the brain responsible for attraction to specific sexes is switched up in homo people compared to hetero people. Seeing as sexes differ by only 1 chromosome, I can see this easily happening. Not really the person's fault.

Can we just stop invoking evolution with these topics? Because people rarely understand it well enough to have it be useful in arguments.

 

[John Kowalski]

guys keep calm we don't want anyone to feel offended or ostracized, remember eloquent bigotry is not bigotry

 

[cosmicblizzard]

Pre-op trans men should be able to use the women's changing room for safety reasons.

So the assumption of men being a danger should make it so only cis-men and post-op transmen should be comfortable walking into the men's room? That also seems to be the argument used against unisex rest/locker rooms in general.

I won't deny the statistics, but I'm not entirely sure how I feel about that. It feels like it could be laying the groundwork for a misandrist culture. Okay, that might be a bit of an exaggeration, but fear based on nothing but a possibility has unfortunately been the basis for many issues in the past directed at certain groups. Not to compare of course as the history is completely different, and I by no means subscribe to an MRA minsdet, but it still doesn't really sit right with me, at least a little bit.

 

[SuperEpicGuy]

So to clarify. Even though experts on gender disagree with you, you think that you are still correct?

I thought that I said that I understood that gender incorporates gender identity. Or are you talking about homosexuality? Because I was under the impression that sexuality is part genetics and part nurture since that makes the most sense.

Do you earnestly identify that way or are you just being an asshole? Kind of important.

Why do people always bring up these ridiculous hypotheticals to justify their awful, bigoted views in these threads? Swear to Christ I've seen people defend racist outbursts in the workplace because "if you fire him he won't be able to provide for his family!"

bigot - a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions.
I'm completely ok with people having different opinions, I'm just pointing out a flaw that I personally see in gender subjectivity. And just because my view isn't the same as yours, it doesn't make it awful.

Can we just stop invoking evolution with these topics? Because people rarely understand it well enough to have it be useful in arguments.

I took a couple of evolution courses so I grasp the concept fairly well. Well enough to pretty much explain most of the traits that humans possess and the evolutionary pressure for each of them.



Ok, I don't want this to blow up anymore, I will just shut up.

 

[Hollycat]

I used to be a bigot about anyone who wasn't cis because I was raised in a strictly religious household. Now I openly identify as a lesbian Transwoman. The difference is information.
Ignorance is fine if you make an attempt to understand. Flat bigotry is not. I'd rather deal with someone who is informed and still transphobic than someone who refuses to even attempt to learn.

The first step is asking questions.

Now @ the original topic of the thread: A gym is like a private club, if you don't like the rules, don't join. If transpeople in your locker room upsets you, find a gym that separates by genitals instead of gender.

I personally use the mens restrooms and locker rooms because (A) I live in Texas and I don't want to explain myself to people who don't really care what I have to say, and (B) I can't pass unless I put on makeup and do my hair, and that's annoying. I don't mind other transgender people using either restroom, I'm personally just too self conscious to do it.

 

[A Link to the Past]

So the assumption of men being a danger should make it so only cis-men and post-op transmen should be comfortable walking into the men's room? That also seems to be the argument used against unisex rest/locker rooms in general.

I won't deny the statistics, but I'm not entirely sure how I feel about that. It feels like it could be laying the groundwork for a misandrist culture. Okay, that might be a bit of an exaggeration, but fear based on nothing but a possibility has unfortunately been the basis for many issues in the past directed at certain groups. Not to compare of course as the history is completely different, and I by no means subscribe to an MRA minsdet, but it still doesn't really sit right with me.

Well, cis men are a danger. For both trans men and women, men are most often the ones who perpretrate violence against both. This is not to say that trans men should not be able to use male facilities, or that all cis men will become violent or harassing, but the risk is real enough that pre-op trans men should be able to go somewhere safe.

 

[Wowfunhappy]

Being a peeping tom can ruin your life. Being a peeping tom who claims to be trans in order to go into a women's bathroom is so high-risk and so high-effort that people have to go through the risk of peeping in general and THEN go through the risk of publicly identifying as trans. What you're describing is so cartoonishly unrealistic that I wouldn't be surprised if your perception of reality is from TV.

Bingo. This is the way I see it as well. If someone can show stats (or even maybe anecdotes) to show that this is a thing then I'll stand correct, but until then logic wins out.

 

[Sai-kun]

Alright, so gender includes gender identity. I didn't know that.
This is generally described as one's private sense of being a man or a woman.
I guess then, going by that, no one should have any issues with me walking into a woman's change rooms. They can't send me to jail or lay charges on me, right? I can just say I feel like a woman.

i mean yeah you could

but why would you?