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[thequestion]

It was all part of the plan. WWE did a good job garnering buzz from the finish, but It was all scripted to the letter.

I really thought Undertaker was going to come out and set up a rematch with Brock at mania. Missed opportunity.

 

[Cagey]

If you're wondering if something in wrestling was a work or a shoot, even if it was a shoot, the very fact you're speculating and discussing and thinking about the event means you were worked.

 

[dream]

The ending was a clusterfuck. Nobody knew what to do. Blood in and of itself is no reason to end a match, and Randy's injury, while ugly as hell, was quite clearly in need of treatment. There are medical guidelines that doctors must obey in sports, and I can guarantee you that when somebody has that big of a gash, they simply will not be okayed to continue i.e. WRESTLE. Brock certainly could jump on him a couple of times and flail at his arms, but Randy standing up and doing moves was out of the question at that point. This is the point where I think that shit happened on the fly. Watch the tape - the referee never calls for the bell. That was likely radioed from the back, either from Vince or Trips, who were in the ears of every official in and around that ring. Seriously - that ring was damn near the bastard child of a deer in the headlights and a headless chicken for several minutes until the bell was called for.

Now Shane coming out and getting F5ed was likely the plan from the get-go, but even that was questionable. It's just as believable that Vince said/yelled "DAMN IT, WE HAVE NO ENDING NOW! Shane - go eat an F5" when faced with the chaos and lack of a satisfactory closing that his second biggest show of the year had devolved into.

I'm not saying Randy wasn't supposed to bleed and I'm not saying that Shane wasn't supposed to be F5ed, but I am saying that what actually ended up happening wasn't HOW it was supposed to happen.

I think it was exactly what was supposed to happen. We're a month out from watching Brock win a shoot fight against the #8 ranked HW in the world. You can't have him look like just another fake wrestler because he's not just another fake wrestler, nobody believes he's just another fake wrestler, and he shouldn't have to do fake wrestler stuff like hook the leg for the pin or get rolled up in a schoolboy.

strobogo of legitshook.com, one of the best wrestling writers on the Internet, wrote this in his coverage of Summerslam, and I think he absolutely nails it:

God damn did Brock need this match. After a boring as shit WM match, a good feud with Taker that ultimately went nowhere, being saddled with Seth last year, and coming straight off a UFC win, he returns to WWE to reassert his dominance and regain the aura he had after he destroyed John Cena in 2014. This was absolute destruction, and ONLY Brock can have this match. That's part of what makes him so valuable. Half the guys on the roster can have a Finn Balor or Dean Ambrose match. Only Brock Lesnar can have a Brock Lesnar match. He's a unique force of nature and it is wonderful. People complaining about how he doesn't do enough moves are missing the point. Brock Lesnar is a violent savage. His matches are violent and savage. It's wonderful. It works even better after training the audience for years that this type of thing doesn't happen anymore. This put him back at the top of the super boss god-tier character after coming off like a normal guy for the better part of the last 2 years.

Look at the way wrestlinggaf, who proclaims itself to be "smart" or "inside" fans is reacting to the match. That's because they know Brock is something different from an Adrian Neville or an Antonio Cesaro.

 

[The Albatross]

So was the finish a work or what?

 

[wild wild rice]

Half the crowd got so worked, booing the shit out of Lesnar. Hell, I was shaking my head in disgust.

 

[Lan Dong Mik]

It was a work. We would have heard otherwise by now. I did have legit doubts though as it was happening and after the match as well. It was a work though.

 

[cordy]

I'm still cracking up at that Ambrose gif. People are so pissed at it but you can tell Ambrose was fucking around that match. He was even joking around in that post-match interview.

I just love when wrestlers let it all hangout and have fun.

Poor Ziggler though. Dude's got nothin lol.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Lesnar of all people would be the last guy to go into business for himself. He works stiff as fuck but he is there to do what he is told and collect his paycheck. He doesn't give a fuck.

 

[Uno Venova]

If you're wondering if something in wrestling was a work or a shoot, even if it was a shoot, the very fact you're speculating and discussing and thinking about the event means you were worked.

True.

I'm still cracking up at that Ambrose gif. People are so pissed at it but you can tell Ambrose was fucking around that match. He was even joking around in that post-match interview.

I just love when wrestlers let it all hangout and have fun.

Poor Ziggler though. Dude's got nothin lol.

Kinda sucks that he seems to be getting the blame for such a horrible match. I was really hoping for a Dolph resurgence on SD. I guess we'll see how they handle this on Tuesday.

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

So was the finish a work or what?

Worked shoot angle to make it appear it wasn't simply a botch or blade job but rather Brock potatoing Randy and in the process getting his gimmick over with the marks and smarks as that of a monster heel willing to break kayfabe and make the babyface wear the crimson mask the hard way by working in stiff spots in a squash match.

You mark.

 

[The Albatross]

I don't mean did Lesnar go off script or anything like that, but just, did Orton use a blood pack there (and hence the ending was booked that way) or was he gushing blood unintentionally?

 

[Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!]

Worked shoot angle to make it appear it wasn't simply a botch or blade job but rather Brock potatoing Randy and in the process getting his gimmick over with the marks and smarks as that of a monster heel willing to break kayfabe and make the babyface wear the crimson mask the hard way by working in stiff spots in a squash match.

You mark.

-hh

 

[wild wild rice]

Worked shoot angle to make it appear it wasn't simply a botch or blade job but rather Brock potatoing Randy and in the process getting his gimmick over with the marks and smarks as that of a monster heel willing to break kayfabe and make the babyface wear the crimson mask the hard way by working in stiff spots in a squash match.

You mark.

Reading this post felt like getting sandbagged.

 

[cordy]

Kinda sucks that he seems to be getting the blame for such a horrible match. I was really hoping for a Dolph resurgence on SD. I guess we'll see how they handle this on Tuesday.

Yeah the bookers get the blame for this match. All the other Ziggler/Ambrose matches have been great because they went back and forth. Ambrose was excited for this match too. He was really bigging Ziggler up in all their interviews. I'm going to guess they were told "ok, here's how the match is gonna go" which bummed Ambrose out and decided to say "screw it I'll have fun".

I mean even in their WWE Championship/#1 Contender matches they put on a great match. Here was just a straight domination from Ambrose's side. That's not their fault by any means.

 

[BewareTheBatsie]

Ambrose vs Ziggler was on both men. It was disappointing because they had the hottest feud going in. Didn't help that what could have been a cool spot got ruined because Ambrose didn't jump back on the barricade the moment he got kicked.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

True.


Kinda sucks that he seems to be getting the blame for such a horrible match. I was really hoping for a Dolph resurgence on SD. I guess we'll see how they handle this on Tuesday.

What other wrestlers get a pass when they are in a shitty match though? If that were Roman or Cena would people be like "Oh it's the booker's fault"? Dean is "the guy", that kind of criticism comes with the territory. Dean's nickname should just be "Not Roman" because not being Roman is the best thing that ever happened to him and has shielded him from so much criticism for what has been a fairly shitty string of matches, and has convinced people to mask any of his flaws.

 

[dream]

I don't blame "Nasty" Nick Nemeth for anything. He did stellar work leading up to the match. He just got sandbagged by a shitty wrestler, and a company that truly doesn't believe in him when it counts.

 

[sora87]

I don't mean did Lesnar go off script or anything like that, but just, did Orton use a blood pack there (and hence the ending was booked that way) or was he gushing blood unintentionally?

It was a legit cut, I personally think Brock went a bit harder than he was supposed to

 

[Anth0ny]

If you're wondering if something in wrestling was a work or a shoot, even if it was a shoot, the very fact you're speculating and discussing and thinking about the event means you were worked.

are you calling me a jabroni mark with no life that don't know it a work when you work a work and work yourself into a shoot?

 

[Lan Dong Mik]

page 109 turning into markcity

 

[Cagey]

are you calling me a jabroni mark with no life that don't know it a work when you work a work and work yourself into a shoot?

We're all marks, brother.

It's that truth that frees us to laugh and have fun while being sports entertained.

 

[Chamber]

I don't blame "Nasty" Nick Nemeth for anything. He did stellar work leading up to the match. He just got sandbagged by a shitty wrestler, and a company that truly doesn't believe in him when it counts.

Quit trying to get indie cred by referring to wrestlers as their real name or previous gimmicks!

 

[MC Safety]

This thread reminds me that a lot of professional wrestlers hate it when fans use/abuse the carny lingo.

I know Ric Flair and Cody Rhodes have spoken out about it.

 

[Toki767]

This thread reminds me that a lot of professional wrestlers hate it when fans use/abuse the carny lingo.

I know Ric Flair and Cody Rhodes have spoken out about it.

Well it's a good thing they don't read the internet.

 

[Mahonay]

This thread reminds me that a lot of professional wrestlers hate it when fans use/abuse the carny lingo.

I know Ric Flair and Cody Rhodes have spoken out about it.

Cody gets extremely butt hurt about it.

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

This thread reminds me that a lot of professional wrestlers hate it when fans use/abuse the carny lingo.

I know Ric Flair and Cody Rhodes have spoken out about it.

Is that a shoot?

 

[cordy]

Ziggler ain't going nowhere but Heel Town now. I had no faith he'd be able to beat Ambrose but more than anything it seems they've lost faith in him. Those bookers decided that he shouldn't even get a chance against 'Brose. Ambrose did to Ziggler the same thing Lesnar did to him. The cycle continues. Either way I can only assume that he'll go heel and face off against some babyface like Crews or something. Maybe he'll do a heel/heel against Miz I don't know. Either way he's been tossed.

But man these Styles/Ambrose matches are going to be dope. No better person to get that belt from Ambrose than Styles...but watch Cena win it back at the Rumble and then watch as we see Ambrose/Cena for WM next year.

Yall know it's coming.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

This thread reminds me that a lot of professional wrestlers hate it when fans use/abuse the carny lingo.

I know Ric Flair and Cody Rhodes have spoken out about it.

Ric Flair is jabroni mark potato with no receipts.

 

[KidGalactus]

Yeah if someone came to me with the finish of 'Brock shoot elbows you until you bleed' I'd be all nah fam

This is why you'll be trapped in the mid card until the day that you die.

 

[sora87]

wouldn't be surprised if he got at least minor concussed

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Yeah if someone came to me with the finish of 'Brock shoot elbows you until you bleed' I'd be all nah fam

That's because you aren't about that carnie life. Randy is third generation carnie.

 

[wild wild rice]

wouldn't be surprised if he got at least minor concussed

Couldn't tell if going limp was selling or he browned out for a sec there.

 

[cordy]

That's Randy Orton. A legend.

He's being mauled like he lost a playground fight and the other kid won't stop attacking him.

 

[JustinBB7]

Was it just me or was Orton sandbagging the suplexes? Most of them were pretty low it looked like. Maybe it was on purpose because of Ortons shoulder problems or something.

 

[Lan Dong Mik]

Was it just me or was Orton sandbagging the suplexes? Most of them were pretty low it looked like. Maybe it was on purpose because of Ortons shoulder problems or something.

they looked like absolute shit. at least the first 4 or 5 of them did. brock did get off one good looking one, but for the most part it was shit. couldn't tell if brock was weak or if orton was sandbagging. Orton is a big fucking guy though

 

[wild wild rice]

Was it just me or was Orton sandbagging the suplexes? Most of them were pretty low it looked like. Maybe it was on purpose because of Ortons shoulder problems or something.

Looked sandbagged to me, but now I don't want to be called a redditor conspiracy theorist.

 

[AHappyPanda]

Was it just me or was Orton sandbagging the suplexes? Most of them were pretty low it looked like. Maybe it was on purpose because of Ortons shoulder problems or something.

they looked like absolute shit. at least the first 4 or 5 of them did. brock did get off one good looking one, but for the most part it was shit. couldn't tell if brock was weak or if orton was sandbagging.

Brock was protecting Orton's shoulders. No sandbagging, no Brock being weak.

 

[Apdiddy]

So was the finish a work or what?

It's a work. So will be Brock Lesnar getting shot with a gun or stabbed in the ring.

 

[Mahonay]

Those german suplexes being low during that match is just a combination of Brock playing it safer with Orton, and the fact that Orton just doesn't really take a whole lot of german suplexes these days and probably isn't the best at bumping for them.

 

[Barrage]

Yeah the bookers get the blame for this match. All the other Ziggler/Ambrose matches have been great because they went back and forth. Ambrose was excited for this match too. He was really bigging Ziggler up in all their interviews. I'm going to guess they were told "ok, here's how the match is gonna go" which bummed Ambrose out and decided to say "screw it I'll have fun".

I mean even in their WWE Championship/#1 Contender matches they put on a great match. Here was just a straight domination from Ambrose's side. That's not their fault by any means.

First its Brock being lazy, now its the bookers. At some point you have to hold Ambrose accountable for shitting the bed.

It reminds of when Zayn/Stardust sucked a dick at Roadblock. Youve never seen so much blame on agents in your life.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

Those suplexes were awesome. They looked like legit suplexes, instead of a wrestler jumping backwards while another guy hugs him.

Edit: Ambrose is a fucking shitty wrestler. There was a time when he was better, and maybe he'll get better again, but for right now, Ambrose is THE worst wrestler on the active roster by a pretty comfortable margin. His strikes look terrible, his selling is inconsistent at best, and he has no clue how to wrestle a match in such a way as to look like he's actually trying to win. Dolph isn't much better, but he at least has shown himself capable of greatness, like in that Survivor Series match a few years ago. I feel bad for Dolph for getting stuck with Ambrose in his one chance to prove himself, but he didn't look any better.

 

[MagicWithEarvin]

Brock was protecting Orton's shoulders. No sandbagging, no Brock being weak.

Brock continues to be one of the safest wrestlers to work with, unlike Rollins

Rollins needs to train with Brock to clean up some of his moves in and out of the ring.

 

[BFIB]

Was it just me or was Orton sandbagging the suplexes? Most of them were pretty low it looked like. Maybe it was on purpose because of Ortons shoulder problems or something.

I think it's both. Orton's first big match from a repaired shoulder going against someone that intends on suplexing constant on the shoulders. I think Orton was somewhat sandbagging, Lesnar getting pissed because his suplexes look like shit (even though they look more realistic without Orton jumping to assist), leading to the stiff elbows.

 

[Cagey]

Those suplexes were awesome. They looked like legit suplexes, instead of a wrestler jumping backwards while another guy hugs him.

Amen.

 

[Mahonay]

First its Brock being lazy, now its the bookers. At some point you have to hold Ambrose accountable for shitting the bed.

It reminds of when Zayn/Stardust sucked a dick at Roadblock. Youve never seen so much blame on agents in your life.

All Stardust matches were boring as fuck.

Almost all Ambrose matches are tepid and unimpressive. The only Ambrose match that has ever gotten me hype was his match against HHH at Roadblock.

I think it's both. Orton's first big match from a repaired shoulder going against someone that intends on suplexing constant on the shoulders. I think Orton was somewhat sandbagging, Lesnar getting pissed because his suplexes look like shit, leading to the stiff elbows.

Lol no.

 

[MC Safety]

Is that a shoot?

It's a work and that's a shoot.

Really, I don't know if Ric Flair and Cody Rhodes hate it when people use their lingo or if they're being facetious. But I read an interview with Ric Flair in which he chides if not outright berates the interviewer for using wrestling slang.

I've tried to find this interview again, but have had no luck.

 

[Lan Dong Mik]

Brock was protecting Orton's shoulders. No sandbagging, no Brock being weak.

makes sense. didn't realize Orton had an issue with his shoulder. Good guy Brock!

Shit almost forgot about this amazing Summerslam moment!

 

[AHappyPanda]

Brock continues to be one of the safest wrestlers to work with, unlike Rollins

Rollins needs to train with Brock to clean up some of his moves in and out of the ring.

The only injury that was Rollins' "fault" I think was Cena's nose. Sting took the turnbuckle bomb like any other person would and still got hurt, I don't think that's on Rollins.

I also don't think Balor's injury is on Rollins either...for whatever reason, if you look at the replay, Finn reaches his right arm/shoulder out and behind him to take the bump on the barricade, leading to the rumored/speculated injury. Normally, they would take the bump with both arms spread out like they would take a flat back bump. But maybe Finn thought he was not close enough to the barricade so he reached out? So maybe it was on Rollins' for releasing him too early? IDK.

It's unfortunate though. As good as the turnbuckle bomb looks, if Finn does indeed require surgery, Vince might just ban it, who knows.

makes sense. didn't realize Orton had an issue with his shoulder. Good guy Brock!

Almost every time Orton is out for an extended period of time, it's his shoulders. I forget what it is, but he has some sort of condition with his shoulders that allow them to be dislocated more easily than a normal person.

 

[espher]

The ending was a clusterfuck. Nobody knew what to do. Blood in and of itself is no reason to end a match, and Randy's injury, while ugly as hell, was quite clearly in need of treatment. There are medical guidelines that doctors must obey in sports, and I can guarantee you that when somebody has that big of a gash, they simply will not be okayed to continue i.e. WRESTLE. Brock certainly could jump on him a couple of times and flail at his arms, but Randy standing up and doing moves was out of the question at that point. This is the point where I think that shit happened on the fly. Watch the tape - the referee never calls for the bell. That was likely radioed from the back, either from Vince or Trips, who were in the ears of every official in and around that ring. Seriously - that ring was damn near the bastard child of a deer in the headlights and a headless chicken for several minutes until the bell was called for.

Now Shane coming out and getting F5ed was likely the plan from the get-go, but even that was questionable. It's just as believable that Vince said/yelled "DAMN IT, WE HAVE NO ENDING NOW! Shane - go eat an F5" when faced with the chaos and lack of a satisfactory closing that his second biggest show of the year had devolved into.

I'm not saying Randy wasn't supposed to bleed and I'm not saying that Shane wasn't supposed to be F5ed, but I am saying that what actually ended up happening wasn't HOW it was supposed to happen.

This is basically my feel on it. Brock was meant to stiff him the whole way (I'll admit to wondering early on if there was a bit of shoot in the fight the way it opened up, just because it was stiff), and it's clear he was supposed to open him up... but once he gets opened up, that's where things went off the rails.

I can totally see a bit of an audible and/or fast-track on the ending. Brock kind of had that "oh hell" look when he realized how bad the bleeding was (akin to Charlotte after Sasha got rocked, or Rollins' posturing after Sting stumbled the first time) and seemed to start to stall/do the dramatic 'beatdown' non-strikes to buy time/story tell a bit. The timing for everything was weird and they ended early for a PPV (where WWE normally loves to go long for everything). Shane eating an F5 seems like a plausible end state but also seems like a 'we need to wrap this up somehow' move so it's tough to tell. The optics certainly complicate things, but I certainly don't think Brock was going into business for himself - I think the elbow/cut was harder/worse than expected and they had to speed things up.

Either way, if they intended to cut him open that badly ending it then and there, a) it's a hell of a work and b) it's kind of a crummy ending.

 

[cordy]

First its Brock being lazy, now its the bookers. At some point you have to hold Ambrose accountable for shitting the bed.

It reminds of when Zayn/Stardust sucked a dick at Roadblock. Youve never seen so much blame on agents in your life.

?

Yeah but that's the issue here. That point to hold Ambrose accountable isn't now simply because people dislike how he is in the ring. I'm not going to be all "Ambrose is the worst yada yada blah blah" like most of these people online. If the match is bad I'll look at why the match is bad rather than automatically looking at who's in the match, that's common sense. The Lesnar situation was what it was. How is that Ambrose's fault especially if he wanted to have more done to him compared to Lesnar? You also can't blame him for their time limit. I mean that's what it is. Like stated, what Lesnar did to Ambrose is exactly what he did to Harper and everybody else since Suplex City came out. If anyone's actually blaming Ambrose for the Lesnar match? They're just trying to find a reason to dislike Ambrose considering they dislike him and/or like Lesnar more. Do we blame Harper? New Day? Do we blame Orton? Nah, you know who's issue that was. He didn't even have to confirm the Lesnar comments, I mean that was rumored prior so it makes sense why to blame Lesnar. Getting mad at Ambrose on this point? I can't take that seriously.

And as for the Ziggler match last night...yeah I'll blame that one on the bookers because we've seen these guys have great matches on Raw and on SD. These guys have faced each other numerous times this past year and each time (rather than last night) it has been a pretty good match. I mean they fought for the IC belt on SD, fought in the WWE title tourney in November, #1 contender's tourney a few months ago on Raw, each time was a great match. Last night however? It wasn't. The problem is people either have either forgotten those matches or they're using their opinion on Ambrose and using that to gauge him overall, I can't do that because I've seen them do well so obviously something else is at play here which is why I say it's the bookers. The difference is in all of the other matches it was more like 50/50 but this one? It was 90/10 in Ambrose's favor. How's that his fault? So when I say it's the bookers in this situation I'm using that based on how their other matches have been because these guys know how to go in the ring against each other. It's all on Youtube.

That's what I'm saying by not putting the blame on him. If I've seen them have good matches before and all of a sudden this match is bad...but then I see that it's more 90/10 than 50/50 like previous matches, how am I putting the blame on Ambrose? Common sense tells me that it's a bad match because Ziggler isn't getting as much offense as he did in their previous matches and the storyline of the match in this case is a booker issue.

Lastly dawg, I'm not going to put the blame on Ambrose for that funny barricade spot. One bad spot isn't going to sour me on a match, that was HILARIOUS. It still kills me to see it.