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[Superayate]

The real issue there is that Series S is basically a last gen console that can sometimes do ray tracing. So while Sony first party will eventually get to a point where they make nothing but next gen games, Microsoft first party will always have to develop with Series S in mind. NX Gamer did a review on the HFW gameplay where he pointed out areas that are likely being held back because of PS4 where a PS5 only game wouldn't have that constraint. So it's not all roses. It's just that Guerrilla did a damn good job despite developing for lesser hardware. Doesn't change that it would have been better if it were PS5 only.

I think that putting XSS at the same level than last gen console is a mistake. Yes, the GPU has on paper RAW power + Mem bandwidth around an PS4 pro, but that's forgetting how the others main parts are so much better => IO and CPU are a real big step. The problem for the XSS is that the current game are cross gen, so not developed to exploit its strength compared to last gen hardware. Remedy dev were clear about that, the more the game only be developed for the new console, the more it will be easy to exploit and work with the XSS, also to use its strength (it will be obviously the same for PS5 and XsX). Yes the memory part is reduced and will surely impact the game dev (as explain by ID devs) for these new consoles, but clearly, the XSS is not a last gen hardware.

 

[Chukhopops]

My chance? Someone is awfully full of themselves. The specs speak for themselves. I'm far from the only person who shares that opinion. Yeah the SSD and CPU are cool and all but that GPU? Ooof. A third the floating point performance of the Series X. Far fewer cores and a lower clock speed. Its RAM solution is also considerably weaker. 6 fewer gigs with a significantly lower bus and bandwidth. Sorry bud. You can slice it however you want. That box's overall performance makes it hardly any better than last gen. It's a weak variant that Microsoft's first party has to develop for every time.

I like how in the PS5 vs SX discussions teraflops don’t matter and it’s all about the faster IO and architecture, but when it comes to SS the flops are back from the dead and the RDNA vs GCN, SSD vs HDD etc no longer matter.

How does Cyberpunk run on SS vs last gen? How does Resident Evil 8 do? How does Biomutant? It should be the same right?

 

[Varteras]

I like how in the PS5 vs SX discussions teraflops don’t matter and it’s all about the faster IO and architecture, but when it comes to SS the flops are back from the dead and the RDNA vs GCN, SSD vs HDD etc no longer matter.

How does Cyberpunk run on SS vs last gen? How does Resident Evil 8 do? How does Biomutant? It should be the same right?

It's fascinating that you think I'm one of those people just because of what I have to say here. When it comes to the CPU and SSD if something taxes the Series X in those areas it'll be fine for Series S. However, any aspects of a game that tax the GPU and RAM of a Series X will present major hurdles for Series S. There's no two ways about it.

 

[Varteras]

I think that putting XSS at the same level than last gen console is a mistake. Yes, the GPU has on paper RAW power + Mem bandwidth around an PS4 pro, but that's forgetting how the others main parts are so much better => IO and CPU are a real big step. The problem for the XSS is that the current game are cross gen, so not developed to exploit its strength compared to last gen hardware. Remedy dev were clear about that, the more the game only be developed for the new console, the more it will be easy to exploit and work with the XSS, also to use its strength (it will be obviously the same for PS5 and XsX). Yes the memory part is reduced and will surely impact the game dev (as explain by ID devs) for these new consoles, but clearly, the XSS is not a last gen hardware.

Based on its specs, Series S would be a top-of-the-line last gen system. But when you compare it to Series X and PS5, it's not in the same league at all. I'd compromise and say it's half a gen behind in regards to its RAM and GPU. It's a solid little box but like I said in the post before this, anything that taxes the Series X in GPU and/or RAM is going to present a major challenge to someone developing for it.

 

[vaibhavpisal]

It's fascinating that you think I'm one of those people just because of what I have to say here. When it comes to the CPU and SSD if something taxes the Series X in those areas it'll be fine for Series S. However, any aspects of a game that tax the GPU and RAM of a Series X will present major hurdles for Series S. There's no two ways about it.

1/3 performance for 1/4 the resolution.

Seems alright to me. Why does it need more tf for 1080p target resolution?

 

[Varteras]

1/3 performance for 1/4 the resolution.

Seems alright to me. Why does it need more tf for 1080p target resolution?

Well for one 1080 isn't 25% of 4K. A 4K resolution is 3840 × 2160, which is double 1920 x 1080.

 

[Leo9]

Well for one 1080 isn't 25% of 4K. A 4K resolution is 3840 × 2160, which is double 1920 x 1080.

 

[DaGwaphics]

Edit: Didn't see @ L Leo9 's post there. My bad.

 

[Oddvintagechap]

Thats why deathloop graphics be looking like a wii U game.

But damn Xbox getting a strand game?

 

[Varteras]

4k is 4x 1920p resolution, just sayin.

Sooo genuinely curious here... wouldn't 4x a 1920 x 1080 resolution be 7,680 x 4,320?

 

[DaGwaphics]

Well for one 1080 isn't 25% of 4K. A 4K resolution is 3840 × 2160, which is double 1920 x 1080.

It's double on both axis, thus 4x the pixels.

1080p = 2,073,600 pixels per frame.
4k = 8,294,400 pixels per frame.

2,073,600 x4 = 8,294,400

1440p vs. 720 is the same, with 1440p being a quad of 720p.

 

[Allandor]

Well for one 1080 isn't 25% of 4K. A 4K resolution is 3840 × 2160, which is double 1920 x 1080.

1920 x1080 x 2 != 3840 x 2160
(1920 x 2) x (1080 x 2) == 1920 x 1080 x 4 = 3840 x 2160 = 8294400

(just used the brackets to highlight the error)

 

[Varteras]

1920 x1080 x 2 != 3840 x 2160
(1920 x 2) x (1080 x 2) == 1920 x 1080 x 4 = 3840 x 2160 = 8294400

(just used the brackets to highlight the error)

Well fuck me. I guess I learned something.

 

[Chukhopops]

It's fascinating that you think I'm one of those people just because of what I have to say here. When it comes to the CPU and SSD if something taxes the Series X in those areas it'll be fine for Series S. However, any aspects of a game that tax the GPU and RAM of a Series X will present major hurdles for Series S. There's no two ways about it.

Well you said verbatim that it was a « last gen console that sometimes does ray tracing », which is wrong and dumb. Now you make a much more measured point so I guess it’s an improvement. The truth is, even right now during the cross gen phase where games are still designed primarily for last gen architectures, the SS blows last gen out.

Maybe in the future there will be scenarios where devs will have to reduce draw distance, use more aggressive LoD, reduce détail etc to accommodate the SS GPU or RAM limitations. But the people who chose it will not care (if they even notice it) since they went for a budget option from the start. I don’t think there will be a scenario where it’s impossible to make a game work on SS.

 

[Varteras]

1/3 performance for 1/4 the resolution.

Seems alright to me. Why does it need more tf for 1080p target resolution?

Getting back to this, and since I have now been informed of how wrong I was on how resolution scales, the issue isn't about what Series S will run. What Series S has is fine for the resolution it's aiming for. The issue comes from how developers are affected by it for Series X. NX Gamer pointed out the constraints that HFW has thanks to being built for PS4. One way or the other, Microsoft developers have to develop their games with a much weaker GPU and RAM solution in mind. NX pointed out areas where HFW would have been better if it were purely a PS5 title. This is something Microsoft's developers will have to deal with and try to get around the whole generation. If I'm wrong, fantastic. But we already have examples right now of how cross-gen affects these games. PS4 is clearly much weaker than PS5. So how will Series S not do the same to Series X?

 

[Varteras]

Well you said verbatim that it was a « last gen console that sometimes does ray tracing », which is wrong and dumb. Now you make a much more measured point so I guess it’s an improvement. The truth is, even right now during the cross gen phase where games are still designed primarily for last gen architectures, the SS blows last gen out.

Maybe in the future there will be scenarios where devs will have to reduce draw distance, use more aggressive LoD, reduce détail etc to accommodate the SS GPU or RAM limitations. But the people who chose it will not care (if they even notice it) since they went for a budget option from the start. I don’t think there will be a scenario where it’s impossible to make a game work on SS.

Oh it's not Series S and the people who buy it that I'm focusing on here. Series S will be fine. It's in seeing how HFW has already shown how a game developed for PS4 led to constraints even in a PS5 version. Constraints that probably wouldn't have existed if it were purely a PS5 title. How is the RAM and GPU going to affect the Series X versions of games?

 

[Indyblue]

Console Wars sure have ramped back up this gen

 

[Woopah]

In terms of games announced Microsoft looks to have a ptetty good ineup. Its just that we don't know what the gameplay looks like or when they are coming. Let's hope E3 resolves this.

 

[Hezekiah]

What do you think would happen to him if Microsoft flat out bought Sony? lmao

Why do people constantly repeat this stupid statement like it's a possibility..?

 

[Allandor]

Getting back to this, and since I have now been informed of how wrong I was on how resolution scales, the issue isn't about what Series S will run. What Series S has is fine for the resolution it's aiming for. The issue comes from how developers are affected by it for Series X. NX Gamer pointed out the constraints that HFW has thanks to being built for PS4. One way or the other, Microsoft developers have to develop their games with a much weaker GPU and RAM solution in mind. NX pointed out areas where HFW would have been better if it were purely a PS5 title. This is something Microsoft's developers will have to deal with and try to get around the whole generation. If I'm wrong, fantastic. But we already have examples right now of how cross-gen affects these games. PS4 is clearly much weaker than PS5. So how will Series S not do the same to Series X?

That is a valid point.
But on the other hand, look at it as consoles were PCs. The one PC has a GPU with 4GB of memory, while the other has a GPU with 8GB of memory. Both can run the same games but the visuals are different. Works for years now on PCs. And as all the other hardware is more or less 1:1 the same scaling this down should work just fine.
Also we shouldn't forget that "we don't need that much memory as buffer because we have fast SSDs now" thing. SSDs can (if used) free up most of the memory that is nowadays used as buffer. So if the make a rough calculation of 2x worth of memory (compared to last gen for next-gen games) than the same applies to the series s and the memory constraints are much better now. And if IO bandwidth would be really a big thing, the Series S has the highest IO compared to it's GPU performance. So if it just uses lower quality assets, the bandwidth is much wider than even the PS5s bandwidth (at lower quality of course).

Yes, for developers memory might get a optimization-problem but if they do it "correctly" this shouldn't be much of an issue. At least when we are only talking about next-gen games that fully utilize the SSD, HW decompression, etc.

 

[Xavier2337]

every E3 MS got the most hype before the show and they always deliver a mediocre show lol

 

[Varteras]

That is a valid point.
But on the other hand, look at it as consoles were PCs. The one PC has a GPU with 4GB of memory, while the other has a GPU with 8GB of memory. Both can run the same games but the visuals are different. Works for years now on PCs. And as all the other hardware is more or less 1:1 the same scaling this down should work just fine.
Also we shouldn't forget that "we don't need that much memory as buffer because we have fast SSDs now" thing. SSDs can (if used) free up most of the memory that is nowadays used as buffer. So if the make a rough calculation of 2x worth of memory (compared to last gen for next-gen games) than the same applies to the series s and the memory constraints are much better now. And if IO bandwidth would be really a big thing, the Series S has the highest IO compared to it's GPU performance. So if it just uses lower quality assets, the bandwidth is much wider than even the PS5s bandwidth (at lower quality of course).

Yes, for developers memory might get a optimization-problem but if they do it "correctly" this shouldn't be much of an issue. At least when we are only talking about next-gen games that fully utilize the SSD, HW decompression, etc.

For sure the SSDs will definitely help with memory constraints. Being able to load and unload that quickly means less wait time for the RAM holding spots for the information. That GPU though. I mean it's fine for now but that cannot be something so easily overcome as this generation goes on. I mean one way or the other it's gonna have to hold back Series X from what it could really do in some way. Unless you literally build two separate games. Honestly, am I wrong here?

 

[hlm666]

Getting back to this, and since I have now been informed of how wrong I was on how resolution scales, the issue isn't about what Series S will run. What Series S has is fine for the resolution it's aiming for. The issue comes from how developers are affected by it for Series X. NX Gamer pointed out the constraints that HFW has thanks to being built for PS4. One way or the other, Microsoft developers have to develop their games with a much weaker GPU and RAM solution in mind. NX pointed out areas where HFW would have been better if it were purely a PS5 title. This is something Microsoft's developers will have to deal with and try to get around the whole generation. If I'm wrong, fantastic. But we already have examples right now of how cross-gen affects these games. PS4 is clearly much weaker than PS5. So how will Series S not do the same to Series X?

The gpu's are a match architecture wise, they both support all the same things (unlike the gpu in the ps4 to ps5 or xbox last gen to current gen) So scaling the resolution down will get the job done, your better off thinking of the series s and series x as the base and pro models being launched together.

 

[Allandor]

For sure the SSDs will definitely help with memory constraints. Being able to load and unload that quickly means less wait time for the RAM holding spots for the information. That GPU though. I mean it's fine for now but that cannot be something so easily overcome as this generation goes on. I mean one way or the other it's gonna have to hold back Series X from what it could really do in some way. Unless you literally build two separate games. Honestly, am I wrong here?

short answer, yes, you're wrong
longer answer:
Gameplay never really evolved since PS2. Yes the open world games are bigger (well .. and still one of the games with the biggest open world is skyrim), they look better, have better controls ... just more QoL (quality of life) improvements, but they are not really different games. Most of the memory before was more or less a texture buffer. But you still need much memory for many different things and for each frame. The good news, most of those scale with resolution. If the X won't hit 4k the Series S must not go below 1080p because it still has some overhead (1/3 performance for 1/4 the pixels). but if the X goes down much lower, the S will just go below 1080p (completely different audience for this console, resolution is just not important)

 

[Varteras]

Guys stop laughing at me! I already admitted I was wrong.

 

[Ev1L AuRoN]

1/3 performance for 1/4 the resolution.

Seems alright to me. Why does it need more tf for 1080p target resolution?

I think the real hurdle would be the 10gb RAM, the rest is more than enough to run the games with some sacrifices. If directML became a thing the Series S would be in the position to output 1440p like quality as Microsoft promises us.

 

[Hezekiah]

Did people really dislike the newer Wolfenstein games? I never played Youngblood or the VR one but the two main games were imho fucking great.

Yeah New Order and New Collusus were great. The woke follow-up was apparently rubbish. I don't believe there'll be another one coming for at least a year though.

 

[Bernd Lauert]

The real issue there is that Series S is basically a last gen console that can sometimes do ray tracing.

Complete nonsense. It has all the necessary next gen features.

 

[Slayer-33]

I have a feeling that they'll deliver way more than what's just listed by the OP.

If it happens it'll be a hell of an E3 for MS, of course they need to deliver gameplay as well.

 

[Varteras]

Complete nonsense. It has all the necessary next gen features.

I already went over this with others. I have since been corrected on my view of Series S and how it might affect Series X.

 

[Arun1910]

Well for one 1080 isn't 25% of 4K. A 4K resolution is 3840 × 2160, which is double 1920 x 1080.

 

[Dad_Of_Chicken]

You really have no idea and any sense of how long brand new studios take to kick into full gear. Please stop posting, you have nothing of value to say and will will not be taken seriously by anyone.

Are you ok? Can you please explain your sudden hostility? Or are you just policing the forum for funsies?

Judging from you recent post history, I don't think you have the moral high ground to judge the value of posts on a forum about video games.

 

[Dad_Of_Chicken]

So what were they doing for 3 years? Picking furniture?

Setting up a studio goes way beyond just developing a game. You have all your development pipeline, infrastructure, workflow, documentation, internal/external communication, hierarchy to set up, staff to hire, train, etc.

 

[Varteras]

I was already corrected on this. I was mistaken. Forgive me.

 

[MOTM]

I seriously dont understand this kojima cult, I never enjoyed his games that much

Depends how old you are. Did you grow up with the PS1/PS2 and Metal Gear Solid? Growing up MGS1&2 were probably some of the most incredible experiences.

 

[Elder Legend]

Are you ok? Can you please explain your sudden hostility? Or are you just policing the forum for funsies?

Judging from you recent post history, I don't think you have to moral high ground to just the value of posts on a forum about video games.

Stop taking stuff out of context my dear chicken. I am pointing out your stupid illogical statements when you have no clue how the industry works. That's not hostility lol. If you think that's hostility please go to resetera where everyone gets butthurt over words.

“You will continue to suffer if you have an emotional reaction to everything that is said to you. True power is sitting back and observing things with magic. True power is restraint. If words control you that means everyone else can control you."

-Warren Buffet

 

[NullZ3r0]

This?
"Playing the game" doesn't mean playing some vertical polished slice. It could literally be anything like prototypes in grayboxed areas or testing out the character controller and seeing some of the direction they're going. This was early Feb 2020 prior to the reveal in December 2020. If it was so far along wouldn't they have shown more then...? If not, then why not this E3..? Doesn't seem like it will be, so it's obviously taken time to spin up and get things in full swing.

This was over a year ago. By now they may have a scripted demo ready to go.

 

[Dad_Of_Chicken]

Stop taking stuff out of context my dear chicken. I am pointing out your stupid illogical statements when you have no clue how the industry works. That's not hostility lol. If you think that's hostility please go to resetera where everyone gets butthurt over words.

“You will continue to suffer if you have an emotional reaction to everything that is said to you. True power is sitting back and observing things with magic. True power is restraint. If words control you that means everyone else can control you."

-Warren Buffet

I almost got caught. You're good.

 

[NullZ3r0]

Pretty underwhelming if true. Of the top three there; Halo Infinite is not going to magically look great, Starfield we've known about for a while and Wolfenstein 3 will be multiplatform.

That leaves a couple games there that are years and years away.

Come on. Now you're just spouting out your blowhole.

 

[Clear]

E3 2021 is the one E3 where XBOX cannot afford to disappoint or make mistakes.

Nah, the pitch is still going to be "GamePass is the best value deal in gaming."

That's really it. Whatever software they have coming up is just fodder to improve their value proposition.

 

[DeaDPo0L84]

Wolfenstein 2014 started out great, sequel was decent but had issues, Young Blood was absolutely dumb and a waste of time. They'd have to really go back to their roots to get me even remotely excited for another entry.

 

[Andodalf]

It's fascinating that you think I'm one of those people just because of what I have to say here. When it comes to the CPU and SSD if something taxes the Series X in those areas it'll be fine for Series S. However, any aspects of a game that tax the GPU and RAM of a Series X will present major hurdles for Series S. There's no two ways about it.

Thankfully those things scale beautifully with resolution! And if people are okay with PS5 games running at internal 1080, then XSS even going to 720 isn't the end of the world.

 

[hououinkyouma00]

Well for one 1080 isn't 25% of 4K. A 4K resolution is 3840 × 2160, which is double 1920 x 1080.

lol wut?

It's 2x both horizontally and vertically...which is 4x.

Edit: I should have scrolled more lol you've been corrected enough. Sorry mate.

 

[Corndog]

Oh it's not Series S and the people who buy it that I'm focusing on here. Series S will be fine. It's in seeing how HFW has already shown how a game developed for PS4 led to constraints even in a PS5 version. Constraints that probably wouldn't have existed if it were purely a PS5 title. How is the RAM and GPU going to affect the Series X versions of games?

Your comparing original PS4 to series s? Come on.

 

[Varteras]

Your comparing original PS4 to series s? Come on.

I was looking at the possible constraints because of some of the specs of Series S that are much lower than Series X. How that might affect development over time. Short term I knew would be fine since the GPU is at very least on par with the refresh hardware from last gen. Though with some advantages. Thinking more long term. Like halfway through the gen. Though I've already discussed this with a couple others in the thread and decided to take a more positive outlook on it.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Guerilla Games was always known for technical prowess and just visuals in general. They did it with Killzone 2, 3, Shadowfall and then Horizon.
Let's be real though... you know God of War Ragnarok and whatever Naughty Dog makes will just top everything else on the Sony platforms and beat Horizom Forbidden West.

As for Starfield, yeah I am not expecting much either in visuals department. Bethesda never really made or cared that much for graphics. The only good looking games Bethesda has last gen is DOOM Eternal and Wolfenstein 2 but those 2 were not made by Bethesda, just published so that's why.

On the Xbox side, I am expecting Fable to just be one of those drop dead gorgeous looking games. Fable was always a looker imo. It will be very interesting too see what they'll do with the ForzaTech on that game. This was confirmed that that's what they are using for Fable in case you weren't aware.

Forza Horizon 5 and 8 will also be very good looking games.

However, I still think Gran Turismo beats Forza Motorsport when it comes to car realism and accuracy.

No doubt Fable will be stunning, but if the rumors are true we won't be seeing it this E3 unfortunately. I'm sure Forza will look great too but racing games just don't have the same level of excitement for me personally.

I guess what I'm getting at is that I don't expect any of MS big titles this year to really compete graphically, but that's not necessarily a bad thing as long as the games look fantastic to play.

I think E3 2022 is when MS will show off the stunners - Fable 2, Hellblade, etc.

 

[SafeOrAlone]

I'm just imagining if this is true, and Sony comes out batting with Spider-Man 2 + God of War, and Nintendo busts out a dizzying Breath of the Wild 2 and Metroid.

This could be one of the greats.

Lot of 'If's of course. Has anyone backed up these Xbox rumors yet?

 

[MScarpa]

Oh, I dont know.. maybe:

- Stalker
- Forza (non Horizon)
- Hellblade 2
- Perfect Dark
- Everwild (that game that seems to not be anything, still)
- State of Decay 3

There's loads of stuff they announced last year that, according to this rumor, are going missing and we won't hear a thing.

Hellblade 2 and Everwild seem to have been in development for ages, so there's no excuse with those. They should have something to show by now.

So you'd rather see that lineup then the supposed leaked 1?Or you want all those listed including the leaked?

 

[Nickolaidas]

Why do people constantly repeat this stupid statement like it's a possibility..?

Because some people are incapable of getting the joke due to their fanboyism.

 

[Elder Legend]

No doubt Fable will be stunning, but if the rumors are true we won't be seeing it this E3 unfortunately. I'm sure Forza will look great too but racing games just don't have the same level of excitement for me personally.

I guess what I'm getting at is that I don't expect any of MS big titles this year to really compete graphically, but that's not necessarily a bad thing as long as the games look fantastic to play.

I think E3 2022 is when MS will show off the stunners - Fable 2, Hellblade, etc.

Agreed with all the above. E3 2022 will be a banger for MS.

I am not much a fan of racing either but the classic NFS and Forza Horizon games have special place in my heart. Not into race sims at all.