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Xbox LIVE Indie Games - The July 2011 Thread

besiktas1

Member
toythatkills said:
That model is available on WP7 but I dunno how revenue compares to XBLIG.

Steam's the real way to go. I've a feeling that CStW has probably outsold the XBLIG version by some distance already.

but then if they go to steam, then the service dies :(

This blog is a really interesting read
http://www.occasionalgamer.com/

basically the man has found his niche inwp7 free games, and is making a good living from it... Compare wp7 devises to number of 360's install base, I can't think of a reason why it won't work.
 
toythatkills said:
That model is available on WP7 but I dunno how revenue compares to XBLIG.

Steam's the real way to go. I've a feeling that CStW has probably outsold the XBLIG version by some distance already.

Steams not really an option for most I'd imagine. Last mention in the Sequence thread said they never heard back from Valve, for example. But at this point it's probably a far better way to go than even XBLA (or PSN) exclusive for a small devloper with a high quality game.

Steam offers much more exposure to customers willing to buy digital games than on the consoles and Valve are masters at selling games long after they've launched, what with all their sale events.

besiktas1 said:
basically the man has found his niche inwp7 free games, and is making a good living from it... Compare wp7 devises to number of 360's install base, I can't think of a reason why it won't work.

Yeah it'd definitely work. But maybe MS is worried it would work too well and it'd damage XBLA sales? Or maybe they just forgot Indies existed and will never add any feature to it ever again?
 
Yeah I realise Steam's not an option for most, it just seems that if you're an Indie developer, as long as you release your game on anything at all that Microsoft has nothing to do with, you've got a much better chance of success.
 
Kafel said:
Did anyone try Production Panic ?

240 points for a puzzle-game seems a bit crazy. I've watched a video and I didn't understand a thing.
Yep, I like it. Things on conveyor belts move automatically and you have to direct them to the right exits by flicking switches kinda like how you'd redirect train tracks, or by using pieces of conveyor belt to complete the track. I don't know that I'd call it a puzzle game, but it's good. Then there's a bit more complexity in that you sometimes have to direct stuff through gates before sending it to the exits to change its colour or otherwise process it.

Aliens vs. Aliens confused the heck out of me. When I finally realised that it was a turn-based strategy game, I managed to kill an enemy and the game just beeped at me for the next five minutes while I walked around a map that seemed to have literally nothing on it trying to follow an arrow that pointed at nothing. Whenever I turned to face the arrow, it started pointing somewhere else. No idea at all what it was trying to get me to do.
 

OnPoint

Member
Gaspode_T said:
I watched the trailer, looks like they put a lot of love into it...I like that it has boss fights which gives motivation to complete it. I never got through Astroman because I kind of lost interest and didn't receive much reward besides checkpoint posts (maybe there are boss fights in Astroman and I didn't play long enough??)

Here is the Grand Theft Froot DBP trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bj_0eKXcpFc

Here is Astroman just so people know what I'm talking about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZlD6J5LQaY Astroman has great graphics, but controls are a little bit heavy and it's pretty challenging game so like I said I would have liked to see some sort of reward for hard work of completing sections (I guess you get powerups but maybe not enough epicness) Blocks that Matter does a good job of rewarding you with cut scenes etc

There are only two boss fights in Astroman. And one doesn't even take place in the game's standard sidescrolling setup.
I thought it was a great game, but it definitely could have used more in that regard.
 

Gaspode_T

Member
Grand Theft Froot: Bought!

For those thinking "What the heck is froot", it's basically the main item you are searching for and seems to be tied into the story.

Basic summary:

+ You can feel the love the put into the game
+ Nice cyberpunk-ish music with a bass feel
+ You level up your character and buy items from a shop <- this is huge for me! Great design
+ You unlock a database of things you encountered <- also brilliant compared to most of the other platformers
- The way enemies rush you is kind of more like bulls charging at you, which might annoy some
- I think it's not obvious that you have to 'run' the levels later to complete all pickups
- The way the popups overlay can be hard to read the text, but I think they implemented it in the best way they could without stopping the gameflow

I think it's well worth $1, just searching for coins in the grass and buying stuff will be fun.
 

Gaspode_T

Member
Bought Avatar Ninja 2 this morning as well, it's a clear improvement on the first and a good showing from Milkstone, they seem to be getting better and more consistent with each release.

It's a basic runner like Kung Fu Fight except in Avatar Ninja you have to keep pressing A button at a constant pace, which makes things a little hectic later on when you have to throw shurikens (Y) and duck (B) in quick succession.

The online leaderboard seems to work pretty well but was causing the game to stutter the first time it started to load and show a bunch of names flying by as you beat their scores. After the second or third time playing it seems to be better because you no longer are demolishing a bunch of people who apparently can't figure out how to play a simple runner game.

Then you use coins you collect during your run to buy little power ups which must be why I did pretty well (got to Level 3 where it's raining outside) and still was like #600 worldwide daily ranking, pretty cool that 600 people are playing a XBLIG game in a single day! 2000-something worldwide ranking too.

It's a simple game, but the graphics and sound are nice and I can imagine inviting some non-gamers to try it out in a pinch for something to play.
 

qupe1975

Neo Member
Gaspode_T said:
Grand Theft Froot: Bought!

For those thinking "What the heck is froot", it's basically the main item you are searching for and seems to be tied into the story.

Basic summary:

+ You can feel the love the put into the game
+ Nice cyberpunk-ish music with a bass feel
+ You level up your character and buy items from a shop <- this is huge for me! Great design
+ You unlock a database of things you encountered <- also brilliant compared to most of the other platformers
- The way enemies rush you is kind of more like bulls charging at you, which might annoy some
- I think it's not obvious that you have to 'run' the levels later to complete all pickups
- The way the popups overlay can be hard to read the text, but I think they implemented it in the best way they could without stopping the gameflow

I think it's well worth $1, just searching for coins in the grass and buying stuff will be fun.

Would you say the trial doesn't showcase enough of the good stuff though?


TTK - Is Production Panic in a similar vein to Carcophony, which I like, then?
 
qupe1975 said:
TTK - Is Production Panic in a similar vein to Carcophony, which I like, then?
Yeah I guess it is in a way, though I enjoyed it more than Carcophony which for some reason I always found to be a bit "much." PP has short, small levels and so if stuff goes wrong you can just go back and fix your mistakes.
 

Kafel

Banned
I've just grabbed a code for QuickDraw and I don't know when I'll be able to try this :

webboxart.jpg


screen4.jpg


The charac design is cute at least.
 

Gaspode_T

Member
qupe1975 said:
Would you say the trial doesn't showcase enough of the good stuff though?


TTK - Is Production Panic in a similar vein to Carcophony, which I like, then?
Well, I am reading the devs saying they couldn't figure out how to put the hard stuff early enough to appear in trial mode, def seems like a long game but I would keep expectations that they customized the heck out of the platformer starter kit and focused on adding lots of content...
 
Kafel said:
I've just grabbed a code for QuickDraw and I don't know when I'll be able to try this :

The charac design is cute at least.
I quite like this, but the trial is a bit long. If it had stopped after three or four shots I might have been tempted into a purchase but it goes on for some time (with a lot of waiting for "draw" to appear) and so I think I played all I needed to.

I was awesome at the counting one. A clock ticks down from ten seconds and disappears when there's seven left, you have to fire when the ten seconds are up. I fired on 10.01 seconds. Oh yeah. Other rounds include firing when "draw" appears, firing when a can hits the floor, pressing the correct button prompt to fire, all as basic quickest-reaction-wins levels.
 

Kafel

Banned
toythatkills said:
I quite like this, but the trial is a bit long. If it had stopped after three or four shots I might have been tempted into a purchase but it goes on for some time (with a lot of waiting for "draw" to appear) and so I think I played all I needed to.

I was awesome at the counting one. A clock ticks down from ten seconds and disappears when there's seven left, you have to fire when the ten seconds are up. I fired on 10.01 seconds. Oh yeah. Other rounds include firing when "draw" appears, firing when a can hits the floor, pressing the correct button prompt to fire, all as basic quickest-reaction-wins levels.

I've tried it and it's ok. As stated on the dev's website, it's only shareware-ish.

Could make a fun drinking game.
 
TFE does look amazing. Very pretty title, and seems to have a lot of deep gameplay elements.

I appreciate different titles such as this coming to XBLIG because it shows what XNA has to offer, as well as some of the diversity that the developers are capable of. Sure, the game probably isn't geared towards everyone, but it appears to be top notch from what I've seen.

Doom and Destiny, a JRPG is oustanding from what I've played. Can't elaborate on it much as it is in playtest, other than it is one of the more enjoyable JRPG's I've played in quite some time and filled with charm.
 

OnPoint

Member
Well if nobody is going to post the list

- T.E.C. 3001
- Speedrunner HD
- Raventhorne
- Take Arms
- Train Frontier Express
- Cute Things Dying Violently
- Doom and Destiny
- Battle High: San Bruno

Volchaos could still get in through fan voting.
 

OnPoint

Member
PepsimanVsJoe said:
If anything this gives more of an incentive for XBLIG devs to put work in and deliver quality products.

Does it? Zeboyd's games are some of the most highly touted games on the entire XBLIG service. If they can't succeed with their level of polish, what gives someone the confidence anything they put out and may pour their soul into will fare any better?
 

wwm0nkey

Member
PepsimanVsJoe said:
If anything this gives more of an incentive for XBLIG devs to put work in and deliver quality products.
Yeah so it can sell like shit!

Seriously though no matter the qullity there are 2 problems

1. People dont want to play something that doesnt give them gamescore anymore
2. There is so much shit on the Indie games channel that almost all indie games get a bad name.

I said it in the other thread but here is what needs to happen

Divide XBLIG into 2 sections, Indie games and Community games

Indie games have to be quality checked and meet a cretin standard, can be more than 150MB, access to achievements and ect.

Community Games, basically the shovel ware crap we get now and it stays the same and gets no special privileges.

I know it destroys the point of "indie" games but if people want their stuff to sell well there really is no other way sadly.
 
OnPoint said:
Does it? Zeboyd's games are some of the most highly touted games on the entire XBLIG service. If they can't succeed with their level of polish, what gives someone the confidence anything they put out and may pour their soul into will fare any better?
They did alright, I wouldn't call them unsuccessful necessarily, but now they've got a chance to actually meet their potential, which was never gonna happen on XBLIGs.

It'll be interesting to see how Tobe does, I can't imagine that's gonna be as runaway a success as CStW, which probably also has a massive advantage in being one of very, very few JRPGs on Steam. Steam isn't a guarantee of success, basically, you have to have the right product for it just like Z0MB1ES!!!1 and FortressCraft are the right products for XBLIGs.

Segregating the section further is not a solution.
 

OnPoint

Member
toythatkills said:
They did alright, I wouldn't call them unsuccessful necessarily, but now they've got a chance to actually meet their potential, which was never gonna happen on XBLIGs.

It'll be interesting to see how Tobe does, I can't imagine that's gonna be as runaway a success as CStW, which probably also has a massive advantage in being one of very, very few JRPGs on Steam. Steam isn't a guarantee of success, basically, you have to have the right product for it just like Z0MB1ES!!!1 and FortressCraft are the right products for XBLIGs.

Segregating the section further is not a solution.

I suppose calling them 'unsuccessful' would be a bit harsh within the confines of the XBLIG platform, but speaking comparatively, that they made more money in a week than they did over the course of two games in an entire year? It's pathetic, and XBLIG could be doing so much more if Microsoft would just wake up and give the service so much as a spit-shine.
 
Getting noticed is perhaps the hardest part.

I'm more interested in the story behind Tobe getting a Steam release to be honest. That game stumbled quite a bit at first and thanks to the way the XBLIG service is organized it may as well have dropped off the face of the earth.
 
OnPoint said:
I suppose calling them 'unsuccessful' would be a bit harsh within the confines of the XBLIG platform, but speaking comparatively, that they made more money in a week than they did over the course of two games in an entire year? It's pathetic, and XBLIG could be doing so much more if Microsoft would just wake up and give the service so much as a spit-shine.
Yeah, all the money Valve are making from these games is money Microsoft could have been making.
 

OnPoint

Member
I'm sure it's a drop in the bucket for both companies, but it's another avenue to bring more quality games (well, if the recent XBLIG output is an indication maybe not haha) and therefore more people to your system.

I just don't see why working to promote and improve the service in some meaningful way would be a bad thing.
 

SmallCaveGames

Neo Member
Steam it's the way to go obiously, but it's not like you just hop on there. Don't forget too though that Zeboyd's games got quite a bit of exposure from being on XBLIG, regardless of whether you consider them a financial success on that platform. You could argue that helped it's chances (and success levels) on Steam. He had a fan base waiting to pull the trigger, which is awesome. And like ttk metioned, it filled a perfect niche on there.

XBLIG is a solid stepping stone to bigger/better things (XBLA and Steam), and maybe that's what it will remain as. The low barrier to entry is both a blessing and a curse.

Not sure if you guys reddit, but the top 8 link was posted.
 
Thanks for the reddit bump :)

You're right though - Steam is definitely the way to go. No doubt about that. I'll play on my PC over my consoles any day of the week. The problem however, is that Steam is extremely difficult to get on.

XBLIG still has its perks. As a developer beginning to learn the ropes, build a resume, or collaborate with others, it is perhaps the greatest place to start. If you plan on making a living there, you're barking up the wrong tree.

Steam seems to work out better for those who are already a bit established or have proven themselves. To each their own, I say.

Besides, we've got a bit of good press at the moment, and a few high profile interviews and podcasts scheduled this week, so after we do a few of them hopefully it'll help to spread the good word.
 

Kafel

Banned
The guy said from the beginning he'd release his games on Steam. Way to lose sales on XBLIG and get them later on Steam.
 

slash000

Zeboyd Games
Dividing XBLIG into 2 tiers might just cause people only to ever check the "higher" tier, I'm not sure. In any case, it is unlikely that Microsoft would ever further divide the already tiny market that XBLIG is right now. As far as MS is concerned, the high tier is XBLA.

They did alright, I wouldn't call them unsuccessful necessarily, but now they've got a chance to actually meet their potential, which was never gonna happen on XBLIGs.

I agree; we did very well on XBLIG. But it wasn't enough to continue on as a business. If our plans for the PC platform didn't pan out, it would have been a struggle to continue.

The PC platform has very much exceeded our expectations.

I'm sure it's a drop in the bucket for both companies, but it's another avenue to bring more quality games (well, if the recent XBLIG output is an indication maybe not haha) and therefore more people to your system.

I just don't see why working to promote and improve the service in some meaningful way would be a bad thing.

At the very least, Valve has good reason to host good games on its service and expand its reputation for having a platform with breadth and depth of quality - great indie games to great AAA high budget games. I also just love it when something like Terrarria can hold onto the Top Selling spot (by revenue) for so incredibly long, beat out many of the multi-million dollar budget AAA titles in terms of revenue.




Steam it's the way to go obiously, but it's not like you just hop on there. Don't forget too though that Zeboyd's games got quite a bit of exposure from being on XBLIG, regardless of whether you consider them a financial success on that platform. You could argue that helped it's chances (and success levels) on Steam. He had a fan base waiting to pull the trigger, which is awesome. And like ttk metioned, it filled a perfect niche on there.

XBLIG is a solid stepping stone to bigger/better things (XBLA and Steam), and maybe that's what it will remain as. The low barrier to entry is both a blessing and a curse.

Don't forget that there are other great places to deliver your games on PC as well, such as GamersGate. They are incredibly receptive and helpful and responsive to developers, even indie teams.

I will say though that XBLIG has been a huge part of our success on Steam. We were able to test out our game designs and concepts relatively inexpensively and quickly, and we were able to begin a small but growing fan base. For that I am extremely grateful, both to MS for the opportunity to start out on xblig, and for everyone who went and gave Xblig a chance despite its reputation over all.



Anyway, this experience has really increased my respect for Valve and for GamersGate. They're incredibly well run companies with extremely responsive staff that work with you to help you, your team, and your game succeed.




as a side note Zeboyd Games is two people not just one ;P
 
The thing that I really like about Steam is the willingness to pick some of the little gems out of the indies to feature them with the big boys on sales and promotions. I'm sure that there are plenty of deserving Steam indies that don't get much attention, but I like how the line between the big name releases and little projects like CStW is really blurred. I know that Microsoft has promoted a few indie games to XBLA status, but those are pretty few and far between. I'd love it if they would just recognize a few of the top titles on the indies service and just promote them a little bit, but that just doesn't seem to be their plan.

BTW was the port of CStW an easy port to PC? I know that XNA supports PC versions, but I wasn't sure if they could use XNA for something that released on Steam. I though that it was pretty tied to the Xbox platform, but that PC versions could be done.
 

slash000

Zeboyd Games
TheFightingFish said:
The thing that I really like about Steam is the willingness to pick some of the little gems out of the indies to feature them with the big boys on sales and promotions. I'm sure that there are plenty of deserving Steam indies that don't get much attention, but I like how the line between the big name releases and little projects like CStW is really blurred.

I love this about them too. GamersGate is pretty good for Indie projects as well.

But basically I just love the fact that they are willing to take a chance on an Indie game and give it front page space like everything else. If the game is good, it helps their service.


BTW was the port of CStW an easy port to PC? I know that XNA supports PC versions, but I wasn't sure if they could use XNA for something that released on Steam. I though that it was pretty tied to the Xbox platform, but that PC versions could be done.

You might get varying opinions on this, but for our experience, the basic concept of getting our Xbox-focused XNA games to "work" as PC games was actually somewhat difficult. We never worked with these games on PC until we started several months ago, and it simply wouldn't run (kept crashing). After getting a lot of help and advice from other XNA devs, we finally got it running properly on the PC, but it was still a 1280x720 windowed game with just Xbox pad support and it didn't work with anything less than DX10 iirc, which is problematic for a lot of the market (especially those who wanted to play these games on netbooks - which is something they can now do). We had to rework it so that it operated in Reach mode (iirc was the name) so it could run on DirectX 9.0c hardware. It also gave us a lot of issues when we wanted to go full screen. Our current full screen option isn't as robust as we'd like so we will try getting our engine prepped to do custom resolutions for our future games. Additionally, we needed to get this game with more audio/visual options like different window/fullscreen modes and audio modes, as well as customizeable keyboard controls. We also would have liked to support other gamepads than the 360 pad, but we are already knee deep in developing our next game - there are free xbox pad mappers out there and keyboard pad mappers that allow any gamepad to be used. Anyway, we managed to get all this working, but there was a lot of issues regarding installation and steam/gamersgate deployment that took quite a while to work out. We also had issues with various PC configs crashing after startup or not running music.. we're still working on those.

Basically my point is, it's a bit of work porting to PC, though XNA certainly makes it easier. The challenge then becomes making your game more flexible for different hardware and input configurations. Then your challenge becomes addressing bugs on different platform configs.


At least with consoles you make your game, it works on 1 xbox, it works on all of them ;)
 
Looks like this thing may actually be catching on: Felicia Day from the Guild tweeted about the uprising today with a link to Kotaku's story on it. The fact that she has 1.8 million followers may help a bit too.
 
PepsimanVsJoe said:
If anything this gives more of an incentive for XBLIG devs to put work in and deliver quality products.
I'm starting to think that polish and quality have little to do with great sales on XBLIG.

People aren't looking for something that they would buy on XBLA. They want something quick, ugly and cheap.
 

SAB CA

Sketchbook Picasso
Still fan votes to get a pair of other titles in the Uprising, right? That's cool.

Progenitor, Katana Land, and Blossom Tales are 3 I wish were there (I remember it being mentioned that BT's wouldn't make it, due to delay, however). But overall, I think it's a pretty solid mix of titles! (Though I fail to understand why there are 2 "runner" games there, even if they are pretty different.)

Pretty happy to see San Bruno there, too. The amount they're fitting into their update is pretty impressive, and the re-creation of the background, in order to fit the new widescreen format, is a great example of growing the game according to player request. A great example of how indie devs can support their titles, even after release, and one of the most substantital updates to be presented in these Uprisings.

-------

Glad to hear of the success of CSTW, of course ^_^ I'm one of those who are very glad it came on on XBLIG; Much mroe likely to actually enjoy it fully on console, rather than computer. Until Microsoft steps up with XBLIG's some, I think Steam X XBL X Others is a good mix for the best of the best games.

I'm sure that CSTW also included BOD VII also helped out, as well. Insanely good value for the price.
 

Gaspode_T

Member
Someone should really make an uprising voting OT since junior member Dave Voyles probably can't do it himself :p

I was looking through the list again but the ones I most want to vote on probably wouldn't be ready by August (Vorpal 2, Blossom Tales, etc), I don't know but maybe those should be excluded from the Facebook poll? Or maybe they have a chance of getting in if the release dates are all pushed back a little? (I wouldn't mind 2 or 3 week delay if it means the games are all more polished)
 

SmallCaveGames

Neo Member
slash000 said:
Anyway, this experience has really increased my respect for Valve and for GamersGate. They're incredibly well run companies with extremely responsive staff that work with you to help you, your team, and your game succeed.

as a side note Zeboyd Games is two people not just one ;P

Word, lol. My bad for the "he" - should have been "they."

Really pumped you guys are making out well on there. It's also a success story that makes me (and other devs) stay driven to keep working hard on our games.
 

Gaspode_T

Member
Plague looks interesting, but I read the aiming controls aren't analogue, maybe they can fix that in a patch? Anyone try this? How does it compare to Grand Theft Froot?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hxUT7NB_5w

I'm going back to Avatar Ninja 2 here and there and it's taking forever to get the power ups, my rank is now 1,800 or something instead of 2,500. I think I like Kung Fu Fight a little better but Avatar Ninja is a little bit easier...the later part in Kung Fu Fight where sushi chef dude throws fish at you is just awesome though
 

j00ce

Neo Member
wwm0nkey said:
Yeah so it can sell like shit!

Seriously though no matter the qullity there are 2 problems

1. People dont want to play something that doesnt give them gamescore anymore
2. There is so much shit on the Indie games channel that almost all indie games get a bad name.

I said it in the other thread but here is what needs to happen

Divide XBLIG into 2 sections, Indie games and Community games

Indie games have to be quality checked and meet a cretin standard, can be more than 150MB, access to achievements and ect.

Community Games, basically the shovel ware crap we get now and it stays the same and gets no special privileges.

I know it destroys the point of "indie" games but if people want their stuff to sell well there really is no other way sadly.

But... what is quality? Who decides?

Fundamentally, when you start to divide the market in this way, you're starting to make a judgement call on the content of the game. And whatever safeguards you put in place, that means there's a good chance that individual titles will be censored due to personal preferences, not quality. And at that point, you're weakening one of the key pillars of indie development: the ability to develop themes and concepts which are unsuitable for the mass market.

In fact, this has already happened at least once, with the hoo-haw over the "zombie avatar massage deluxe 360" game, which was repeatedly held up in the XNA review process for minor technicalities, until the developer eventually agreed to rework and rename it[*].

Similarly, the ratings scandal triggered (or at least highlighted) by the Lacrosse fanbase showed that people are willing to arbitrarily change the ratings of *multiple* games, in order to promote a single title.

And that's not good for anyone.

[*] Admittedly, this isn't the best example in some ways, as this is exactly the sort of cheap and nasty shovelware I think most people would like to see pushed off the platform. But the point remains: holding it back was a form of censorship, and similar could well happen to other games, such as Baby Maker Extreme or Hypno Vol 1...
 

Gaspode_T

Member
Hey, I'm watching the trailer here and just curious about how it controls, is it actually left thumbstick for left ship and right thumbstick for right ship? Why do you have to press A sometimes, it is necessary or just gaining extra points?

My impression of watching the video is like it's a shooting game for drummers that can do multiple things at once with their limbs :)

I remember you saying somewhere that right side can be controlled with AI or something, so I'm a little confused. Either way looks like a creative game and as long as it has level variety (and nice box art ;) ) I'm prepared to drop points on it
 
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