Golden_Pigeon
Banned
I really think that stating one parental situation should be compulsory before commenting on that thread.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Physical punishment for kids? Does it work?
- Thread starter The Futurist
- Start date
'Just be fucking nice to each other' does not teach a child discipline, that's what's so difficult.
To teach and discipline a child means making them feel negative emotions, one way or the other. There is no way around those situations as a parent. You can inflict those emotions through a scolding, through non-violent punishment ('go to your room', 'you're grounded') or you can administer a physical punishment.
But 'just be nice' isn't going to keep children safe or raise any decent citizens.
Me and my brothers were physically punished 1yr old till teenage years. After that, we just would lose privileges.
edited: wife clarified for me...<sentence removed> apparently we didn't have to with our kids.
Yes it works, and no it doesn't. It's not always the exact same for everyone.
edited: wife clarified for me...<sentence removed> apparently we didn't have to with our kids.
Yes it works, and no it doesn't. It's not always the exact same for everyone.
ElectricBlanketFire
Member
Are childless child psychologists allowed to comment?
Parent's who hit their kids are straight up cunts. Some parents seem to forget that children are people, in that their experiences are the same as their own. Having young kids is stressful as fuck, but kids are blank slates who don't have the capacity to understand right and wrong in the same way we do.Using physical punishment imprints violence as a form of control and informs their understanding of the world. If your boss at work hit you, how would you react?
Are you against any disciplinary measures also ? It's also illegal to kidnap people and force them to be in your house, or to force them to go where you want them to go, or to force them to do karate or soccer instead of watching TV all day long, why parents should have this special right ? Well, because parents have a special relationship with their childs, they do have authority over them.[/QUOTE]
You're purposefully blurring the lines. As a parent and an adult, you have certain legally defined duties towards your child. The age of majority is different from being in total control of someone. What you're saying actually further plays into my argument, because by your definition of "complete authority", you could kill your kids for doing something wrong. But you can't. And there are reasons for that. Just the same reasons that, in my view, morally place physically hurting them at the same level as physically hurting someone else. I live in a country where that's reflected in law, and I think it's sad that that's now how it is all around the world.
There are laws that say that you need to ensure what's best for your child. That's why they don't have completely volition. You are in charge of making sure they go to school, you are in charge of making sure they eat, etc. But you cannot use any means necessary to ensure those things. You cannot put a shock collar around their necks, force a GPS tracker on them, then zap them if they are outside of school on a given day. You cannot hurt your child to achieve your duties. You're attempting to blur the lines, so let's make them clearer. The only reason why it is allowed in some countries is that it's not considered "hurting your child". That's the basis of what we're discussing. I think physically hurting your child hurts your child, and so does all research on the field.
Yeah, if you're a doctorate in child behavior, you really need to have a child before you can give anyone advice. Can you please state what this is supposed to achieve? Show that kids are so annoying sometimes that it's hard to cope without using violence? That if you haven't had a child, you don't understand how hard it is, and if you have a child, you get that they deserved to get smacked sometimes?
It's kind of insane. We protect kids in so many ways. Our society goes crazy over a toy that might be made with something harmful to an absolute tiny percentage. Choking hazards are a big deal. We regulate what things can be made of. We barely let kids out of our sight for fear something could go wrong. If there's even a chance, then that's terrible.
That's all well and good, but why is hitting them an exception to this? As I pointed out in a previous post, I'm sure some people ended up (outwardly) fine growing up around asbestos or with lead paint toys. Most children survived laxer safety standards in car seats or other devices. But people would give a pretty strange look if you knowingly gave your kid a lead paint toy or used something way out of current safety standards. If all available research says not to hit your kid because it has negative consequences why in the world would you do it?
Are people that afraid to admit they might be fucked up in some, even small, way? Are people that afraid to admit their parents may not have raised them the best they could? No one's going to go lock up your fucking dad right now for shit he did 30 years ago. Why do you need to pretend like it was perfect? We all want to do better than our parents. How about following all available expertise when you can?
That's all well and good, but why is hitting them an exception to this? As I pointed out in a previous post, I'm sure some people ended up (outwardly) fine growing up around asbestos or with lead paint toys. Most children survived laxer safety standards in car seats or other devices. But people would give a pretty strange look if you knowingly gave your kid a lead paint toy or used something way out of current safety standards. If all available research says not to hit your kid because it has negative consequences why in the world would you do it?
Are people that afraid to admit they might be fucked up in some, even small, way? Are people that afraid to admit their parents may not have raised them the best they could? No one's going to go lock up your fucking dad right now for shit he did 30 years ago. Why do you need to pretend like it was perfect? We all want to do better than our parents. How about following all available expertise when you can?
Just_myles
Member
You're off base. You don't have much context. I understand that this is a sensitive subject for you. It is for me to which is why I am posting it here as I want to share ideas with other possible GAFFER parents.
Of course it's not.
I am only offering my take on the subject matter. Nowhere did I say you had to listen. I think you know that.
If you check my post history in this thread I said exactly that. Most parents don't speak to their kids like they're people. So bad behavior goes unchecked.
My point was that kids who behave badly and are unpunished continue with that bad behavior and it affects other children as well. I have personal experience with that. You can anecdote all you want. My story is reality.
No. My father was, nah. You are making assumptions about my life and you should stop. My father was something else.
It's really not and again you are making assumptions and you should stop. Usually all I need to do is explain what was wrong and I call it a day. But, yes if he does something egregiously bad that puts himself or hurts someone else I will spank his behind.
You know parenting is difficult. Again, there is no instruction manual on how to do it. If someone claims to have the answer it just means that they don't have kids.
Tragicomedy
Member
These are not the words of a futurist. Such a narrow, rigid, and antiquated view on scientific research.
"Show me the vials in the lab, guys!"
I was referring to the last line. Just because there are other ways to harm children outside of violence doesn't make physical punishment any better.
What? You quoted someone saying "Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't" saying "yeah, lol, I was spanked, and I'm not broken". I don't get how that's supposed to be against spanking? I just think "not being broken" is a pretty low standard to measure something by.
Messofanego
Banned
Nope.
Moose Biscuits
It would be extreamly painful...
There's studies out there that show that hitting kids does nothing to improve their behavioural outcomes.
That said, what do you do when a kid don't give a shit? If you take away their toys and ground them and they don't listen to you and go out anyway? You can't exactly restrain them, that's force just like hitting a kid is force.
This isn't me saying "force is the answer" I'm just wondering what the solution is for problem children. Drugs? Juvie? Putting them up for adoption? Lobotomy?
That said, what do you do when a kid don't give a shit? If you take away their toys and ground them and they don't listen to you and go out anyway? You can't exactly restrain them, that's force just like hitting a kid is force.
This isn't me saying "force is the answer" I'm just wondering what the solution is for problem children. Drugs? Juvie? Putting them up for adoption? Lobotomy?
There may not be an instruction manual, but there are tons and tons of research articles and psychologists that would tell you not to hit your kid.
If there was an instruction manual I'm pretty sure you would not use it.
Also, I'm not making any assumptions about you at all. I'm going exactly by what you've posted. You said your dad kicked your ass and now you're talking about how you hit your kid. I'm not assuming anything. You said that.
GoingToDelete
Member
No. There shouldn't even be a discussion about it. Just no.
Messofanego
Banned
Holding a child's hand isn't violent or abusive, like when grabbing your kid's hand to stop them running into traffic. It's not about banning physical contact, it's about stopping fill grown adults from striking children.
Moose Biscuits
It would be extreamly painful...
Like, frame them for it? That'd do the trick, probably.
N7 MRP Weasel
Banned
No, although some folks really think that by getting whooped as a kid meant bloodied and bruised, passing out and going into shock etc... The occasional spank whip with a belt and pinching or flicking and or twisting of the ear, that was it for alot of us.
N7 MRP Weasel
Banned
Everyone is different, but an RKO is universally accepted and has a 98% success rate
So bullying in the justification of punishment?
This.
Do you hit your partner when they do something you don't like? No? Your work colleagues? Still no? So what makes it ok to do it to a child? The logic behind hitting children is so backwards it hurts.
Let alone the fact that it is ineffective, as a society that is supposed to condemn violence, too many people still think that hitting their children is somehow ok.
No. If I have to resort to hitting my daughter, I have failed as a parent.
The "I was hit as a child and I'm fine" excuse is nonsense. We used to send children down the chimney and most of them lived, let's to that again too.
Just_myles
Member
You don't nearly have enough to go on. If you would like to discuss the merits of disciplining kids be it physical or verbal, i'm all eyes. I don't know you or your situation but, we had a huge issue with bullying and it has me questioning a lot of what modern parenting has become. If you want to talk about that, I am most certainly willing to discuss in this thread or PM. I need to vent.
ElectricBlanketFire
Member
Hitting a child with a belt is abuse.
Earthbound64
Banned
This.
Cognitive dissonance / confirmation bias / anecdotal evidence all over the place.
N7 MRP Weasel
Banned
Well yeah my mom did take my lunch money and my hat away and pass it back and forth with my dad while I squirmed in the middle. So yeah bullying I guess
cryptosporidium
Member
The wooden spoon threat was good enough for me.
Reminds me of that corner gas episode where Emma Leeroy threatened the shit out of a little kid to get him to behave. Basically my mum.
Reminds me of that corner gas episode where Emma Leeroy threatened the shit out of a little kid to get him to behave. Basically my mum.
So you are being intentionally obtuse, got it
My point is that parents, having the ultimate responsibility over their kids, make any episode of slaping an abuse of power. Having power doesn't give them right to do anything they want with it, it gives them more responsibilities.
Your example is extreme and enters in the realm of self-defense/defending others from immediate danger, proportional use of violence would be ok.
After the immediate response, talks and serious consideration of seeking professional help, and explaining to the kid why you think that is the best for her, kids don't decide by themselves, but their opinions have to be considered.
Steeped in a Sea of Games
Member
Well, one interesting thing to look at is the fact that negative punishment isn't always bad in that it serves a biological purpose (yes, that's supported by science). Touch a hot stove, it hurts enough you might not do it again. That's hard baked into our psychology and even animals do it to their young to keep them in line. The problem is, do we need to use these methods in our society today? I think most would think not, but again, some people truly do think a certain respect of and fear for authority is a positive thing. Some actions in the real world can have extremely harsh and unrevokable consequences. You spit at the wrong person, they might put you down, etc. Some people would rather their children hate them than see them suffer at the hands of some like that. It's a really tricky situation and part of why this subject isn't so black and white.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
I believe that in general it doesn't work. But it doesn't matter, child abuse is never fucking OK.
Agreeing with someone that says sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't is not that same thing as advocating hitting your child.
I got spanked and turned out fine. That's all I said. I didn't say you or anyone else out there should spank your kid.
Muffin1611
Banned
Yes, thats why children in Sweden and Germany are the least disciplined in the world.
Are you serious with this
Receipts please.
Coriolanus
Banned
I am sure that many husbands think the exact same thing about their wives.
Like some have mentioned, the cultural frame of reference is completely different. South East asian extended families are huge, and we grew up with a lot of love and support from uncles and aunts, as well as got smacked when out of line. It works in those societies. There is practically zero urban isolation, and all the kids at least have a bachelors degree level education due to the familial support and pressure.
My youngest aunt is practically my second mom, my youngest uncle made sure every single one of my cousins graduated (yeah he even made sure to lock them up such that they studied before finals), he got them internships in as diverse companies such as Sony Ericsson to Unilever...and they are all entry level managers in one of the poorest countries of the world.
These things don't automatically happen.
Man my dad used to get beat with belts and drop cords and shit like a slave he said. That stuff I think is crazy. But the most I've ever gotten from my parents was a few hand pops on the butt and a talking to when I was younger, but usually a talk was enough. Got like 1 or 2 spankings in my entire life.
When my niece acts up I talk to her and tell her why she shouldn't do this and that, but if she keeps on after I've told her again I take her hand and pop it lightly and tell her "no" or "stop". Not enough to cause any pain, but it's a clear indication she's in trouble, or is doing something she shouldn't be. She's a good kid, but she doesn't listen sometimes lol and is pretty energetic.
You talk about getting slapped in the face and I think that's crazy. I'd go with a spanking if necessary I guess (havent had to) with a chat, but it seems like a lot of y'all have just been straight up beaten on, or just straight whooped? I think physical discipline should be less about inflicting pain and more about being able to clearly showing them they were wrong if the problem hasn't be solved by talking.
But I'm really just thinking about kids. I've known some bad teenagers lol.
When my niece acts up I talk to her and tell her why she shouldn't do this and that, but if she keeps on after I've told her again I take her hand and pop it lightly and tell her "no" or "stop". Not enough to cause any pain, but it's a clear indication she's in trouble, or is doing something she shouldn't be. She's a good kid, but she doesn't listen sometimes lol and is pretty energetic.
You talk about getting slapped in the face and I think that's crazy. I'd go with a spanking if necessary I guess (havent had to) with a chat, but it seems like a lot of y'all have just been straight up beaten on, or just straight whooped? I think physical discipline should be less about inflicting pain and more about being able to clearly showing them they were wrong if the problem hasn't be solved by talking.
But I'm really just thinking about kids. I've known some bad teenagers lol.
OG Shaka Zulu
Member
Lmao
tonysidaway
Member
In my direct personal experience, it does. That's what makes the constant drumbeat in favour of violence so frustrating. My two are both around 30 now. We didn't terrorise them or beat them. We did our best to show them how to live. It made us both into nicer people, as we learned to discuss the world with respect. How could we have learned that respect of we had resorted to hurting the very people it was our responsibility to protect?
This thread reminded me of an anime called Magical DoReMi where one episode was about a spoiled girl who never got any kind of punishment from her parent, On the whole episode you have the main characters talking about how one slap in the face was okay from time to time and that all of them have received at least one, and I could swear that they were telling this with an smile on their face
So, the girl was acting shitty during the whole episode until her parent finally hit her in the face, then she starts acting good.
Maybe I invented some details sine I only watched this episode once 13 years ago, but I remember that As a kid this episode really fucked me up, even though I understood what they tried to say, is still fucked up that the solution to parenting was an slap in the face
So, the girl was acting shitty during the whole episode until her parent finally hit her in the face, then she starts acting good.
Maybe I invented some details sine I only watched this episode once 13 years ago, but I remember that As a kid this episode really fucked me up, even though I understood what they tried to say, is still fucked up that the solution to parenting was an slap in the face
Completely wrong and proven wrong by study after study.
Using negative reinforcement and striking children activates stress, anxiety and fear responses in the brain and actually damages the connections between neurons, including the ones you really want to keep.
The negative reinforcement needs to be the last tool in your drawer, not the first and violence is never effective. You may get the "results" you want, but you can't see the physiological damage you cause.
It's hard, I know, I have felt like hitting a brick wall at times and my daughter is only 13 months, but constant, positive parenting is proven long term to have better results. At the end of the day, your children are a reflection of you. If you feel like violence is an answer to a problem, so will they.
Just because you can conjure up a convoluted proposition where someone ends up spitting at someone that ends up killing them, you're neglecting basically what being a person is, since you're putting it forth that unless you hit your child, your child will not understand that someone can hit them. The biological effect you're talking about is psychological, it's physiological. I don't get what you're saying is supported by science. We have the fight or flight response, we have flash bulb memories, we have all these various physiological processes that help us learn. Most of these are related to our endocrine system. If you touch a stove and it hurts, it's likely a flashbulb memory, helped by the endocrine response of adrenaline and cortisol. Most of the things related to these responses are helped by those two hormones. They are there to ensure that you don't forget things that are important to remember, be it positive or negative. The problem is that these responses have nothing to do with psychology. It is a completely distinct process that is in place when someone in a position of authority reacts in a way in response to your actions. That is not a direct consequence.
The problem is that the fear you talk about is a completely different manner from the other situations you're invoking. You can have a fear response IN response to being caught, if you then know you're gonna get punished, but it's a completely different process. It's a social process, and it's a much more complicated and more developed part of our brain, thus it's not at all the same.
tonysidaway
Member
That was fiction. Don't use a fucked up anime writer as a parenting coach.
my parents beat the absolute shit out of me when i was a kid. Bloody noses, welts, bruises etc. It got so bad that i confided in a teacher at school and opened up to them. They in turn reported it to the principal, but because my mom was a well known...and in turn well liked teacher in the district nothing came of it...
That aside, i have 3 kids under the age of 4, and as much as they test my patience every day, ive never once considered raising my hand to them. I couldnt envision them living the childhood i did. That being said, i owe my parents my thanks becuase my childhood made it easy for me to see what NOT to do.
That aside, i have 3 kids under the age of 4, and as much as they test my patience every day, ive never once considered raising my hand to them. I couldnt envision them living the childhood i did. That being said, i owe my parents my thanks becuase my childhood made it easy for me to see what NOT to do.
Not every spank is child abuse.
Not every time a child is out of line they should be spanked.
Even great kids that usually act fine and listen can act out and need to be taught.
As a parent you learn that many times your child will act fine with others and have a completely different behaviour when they are only around you.
Arm chair parenting is really easy when you are not in the moment and working on disciplining your kids.
Not every time a child is out of line they should be spanked.
Even great kids that usually act fine and listen can act out and need to be taught.
As a parent you learn that many times your child will act fine with others and have a completely different behaviour when they are only around you.
Arm chair parenting is really easy when you are not in the moment and working on disciplining your kids.
I agree.
There's a lot of variables in play such as how often, how severe, the bond between the parent and kid, how the kid is mentally, how the parents is mentally, idk too many for me to name. It varies though so that's my opinion on it.
Overall great debating on a subject. I like reading the responses. Some nice viewpoints.
UpDownLeftRight
Banned
I'll never fucking understand this logic. Where I'm from hitting your kids isn't just a should I or not matter, if you happen to hit your kid and the school picks up on it you're getting a fucking visit from social services as it should be.
I mean use your fucking head. If you fuck up repeatedly at work does the boss get to lay you out? No? Then stop attacking defenceless children.
I mean use your fucking head. If you fuck up repeatedly at work does the boss get to lay you out? No? Then stop attacking defenceless children.
Similar threads
- Locked