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The Last Night: IGN Article [Quack Quack Slurp Slurp]

J

jimmythepage

Member
Alucrid said:
ok i don't expect everyone to know who he is



but after admitting you don't know who he is i fail to see how you can be qualified to say this. even without knowing him that tweet is enough bullshit that i fail to see why any decent person would like it on twitter. also, they've had months now? ain't said shit, ain't done shit.
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Went to check his audience between TW and YT, and unless I did not find the right content it's not like he has numbers that make him a so called "influencer", therefore I apologize if I still find this not as huge as for many others.
Still, he's definitely some kind of a social stain, and being associated with him doesn't help the whole apologetic behaviour Soret took.

Unless, he still maintains part of his beliefs and gave up on being active about it, so he shows it's support passively.
This kind of reminds me a bit of the Palmer scandal, yet that thing seemed to not hurt his image business side.

I'm kind of thorn about this.
 
M

MUnited83

For you.
jimmythepage said:
I think RAW FURY take on the matter should be read.



Frankly I find that the guy was simply naive towards certain topics, and almost parodically became the embodiment of a archetype people nowadays seek desperately to attach to something they don't understand (for some a women hater villain, for others a twisted brave visionary).
While the guy SEEMS none of them.
He definitely wrote some stuff that needed some more thinking and talking with people with different opinions than him.
And perhaps since years passed since his original statements (obviously deleted) he's been doing that, because I believe this is not an industry where they open "those" doors just because your game looks nice.
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again, let's see the kind of stuff the dude has been putting twitter likes on IN THIS MONTH OF THIS YEAR
altrightfuckwittjsen.png
 
V

Vimes

Member
ShironRedshift said:
In all seriousness, that's something that kinda terrifies me about this game, precisely because it's true. The game is beautiful-looking. And I'm sure lots of the GG crowd, and racists, sexists, etc, are paying pretty damn close attention to this game and how it's received and perceived and shit. Because unfortunately, there seems to be a terrifying message here, based on the reactions in discussions about this game: that while people recognize that what those people have to say is terrible and NORMALLY never even so much as give it the time of day, cover it in a beautiful coat of paint, and suddenly people are completely receptive to it, and bend over backwards to give them the benefit of the doubt, assume everything will be okay, and absolutely just have to try it and experience it for themselves.

And that's what terrifies me about this game: if it ends up being successful, no doubt the rest of the GG/4chan/KiA/etc brigade will just keep doing the same thing: make games about the most absolutely terrible stuff, with terrible, pure hateful messages and themes, but just make sure the games have beautiful, stunning artwork/ art direction and the like since apparently that's all it takes to get people's attention. Just the coat of paint. All else will be ignored, as long as it looks pretty.

That certainly ain't a path I want to walk down, with the GG crowd being emboldened by the success of the game and doing the same thing in the future to get their "message" out (since apparently it's that easy to get people's ears), so I can only hope that this game completely craters and the whole thing just falls on its face.

But based on stuff like the IGN piece this thread is about and shit, I'm just scared about how effective tactics like this may in fact be and that we probably will end up seeing more of this in the future, and not less. I hope I'm wrong, but seeing how eager people are to eat this game up simply because it's beautiful and bend over backwards to give the creators and particularly the writer the benefit of the doubt simply because of that fact and that they just have to try it regardless makes me fearful that I'm not, and that things are going to get a whole lot worse before they get better.
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You've kinda put my finger on some deep unease I feel around this thing. Very good post.
 
T

Tranqueris

Banned
I can't wait for E3 2018..

Major platform holder: "We're excited to present this brand new exclusive!"

People reacting to the trailer: "This looks amazing! Look at the graphics!"

Old tweet discovered by people looking up the developer: "This game is about the scientific fact that black and brown people are more likely to be criminals because of their genetics. #Phrenologyfacts #MAGA."

People reacting to the tweet: "What the fuck?"

Platform holder responding to the tweet: "We support diversity, yadda, yadda, we're still selling the game."

People coming out of the woodwork to defend the developer:

"Oh I'm sorry, why are you so afraid of different but valid ideas like racism?!"

"The developer has a right to make their game and also I'm very angry that you're saying you won't buy it!"

"Typical Neogaf, ugh stop trying to censor everything, also I have no idea what the developer's past but I'm still gonna defend him for some reason."

"Something, something, I'm just asking questions."
 
M

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
Tranqueris said:
I can't wait for E3 2018..

Major platform holder: "We're excited to present this brand new exclusive!"

People reacting to the trailer: "This looks amazing! Look at the graphics!"

Old tweet discovered by people looking up the developer: "This game is about the scientific fact that black and brown people are more likely to be criminals because of their genetics. #Phrenologyfacts #MAGA."

People reacting to the tweet: "What the fuck?"

Platform holder responding to the tweet: "We support diversity, yadda, yadda, we're still selling the game."

People coming out of the woodwork to defend the developer:

"Oh I'm sorry, why are you so afraid of different but valid ideas like racism?!"

"The developer has a right to make their game and also I'm very angry that you're saying you won't buy it!"

"Typical Neogaf, ugh stop trying to censor everything, also I have no idea what the developer's past but I'm still gonna defend him for some reason."

"Something, something, I'm just asking questions."
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Damn.

Also: "It's just one of the devs, don't punish the rest of that (two-man) team for the creator having problematic views!" etc.
 
J

jimmythepage

Member
BernardoOne said:
again, let's see the kind of stuff the dude has been putting twitter likes on IN THIS MONTH OF THIS YEAR
altrightfuckwittjsen.png
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As I wrote earlier, I have no PhD in Psychology but it's kind of obvious he still keep some of his beliefs against the concept of "Women Rights Extremizations".

Reading that tweet I see a boring and attention seeking sentence.
You could switch the "husband" with "priest" and "woman" with "child" and you'll almost have the most popular accusation against the church people makes, and their technology enabled dysfunctional almost illiterate peers like and retweet.

Frankly it's hard for me to cope with the concept of being interest in the content from this people.
 
P

PolishQ

Member
Budi said:
That tweet does point out the problems geek culture has when it comes to treatment of women. I'd retweet it too!
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No, the tweet is claiming that rape is only a problem in "progressive spaces". It's mocking the signs, not bringing awareness to anything.
 
A

Alucrid

Banned
Budi said:
He also said it's not anymore. If you were believing him before, why not believe him now.
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because he also said he changed over the years from the gamergater he was back in 2014. except he was liking tweets by a notable gamergater in 2017. so i'll believe what he says before all the public scrutiny but he's going to have to do a lot more than just lip service to make me believe him after.
 
B

Budi

Member
Alucrid said:
because he also said he changed over the years from the gamergater he was back in 2014. except he was liking tweets by a notable gamergater in 2017. so i'll believe what he says before all the public scrutiny but he's going to have to do a lot more than just lip service to make me believe him after.
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Sure, I'm not saying he has changed his views. Just that the game's story can be heavily different than what it was supposed to be at some point. Especially because of all the outside pressure, even from Microsoft. He can still hold shitty views himself, but doesn't really mean that the game still has them.
 
A

arturo2666

Banned
Budi said:
He also said it's not anymore. If you were believing him before, why not believe him now.
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In response to that, I'll dig up my post from earlier:

arturo2666 said:
Is the "feminism wins and leads to dystopia" bit still in the game? I believe that was one of the things that was reported from 3 years ago or whatever.

My worry is that the game is going to come out, still have shitty bigoted viewpoints, but that specific surface element will not be present. At which point every fucker from these threads that's defended the game is going to come out of the woodwork and exclaim how we were all wrong and the game's actually totally fine.

God that thread is going to be a trainwreck if it happens.
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It's entirely possible that they scrubbed the core concept that he was talking about, but the chance that the game isn't going to have very problematic viewpoints is slim to none.
Cyberpunk as a genre is generally steeped in political themes by it's very nature, so if this dude is writing the story I have very little faith it won't be disgusting.
 
D

Deleted member 80556

Unconfirmed Member
Okay, so this has been quite a shit show. I will excuse myself firstly since I'm gonna use a lot of curse language because I can't believe some of these fucking arguments are still being used today.

the_darkness said:
Bullshit. Closing your eyes and ears to contrary opinions is not the way forward.
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This shit ain't no "contrary opinion". A contrary opinion doesn't fucking make out certain groups of humans be less human than others. A contrary opinion doesn't fucking say feminism, a movement that has advocated for equal rights despite hundreds of women being killed throughout history (some even burned alive), when it has completed its goals destroys society.

You are literally asking us to tolerate an "opinion" that has no tolerance towards others. No, tolerance isn't indifference towards others' "opinions". Tolerance isn't "truth is relative!".

Tolerance needs three things:

1. Sane arguments. (He does not have them)
2. No harm done to others (his views imprinted in this game can change views negatively which can lead to harm to certain groups of humans)
3. Reciprocity (not present in his views either)

So, tell me again why do I need to tolerate someone who is clearly intolerant to inclusive views? Why can't I tell him to fuck right off? Tolerance for intolerance is what brought us here. There's a reason why "so much for the tolerant left" is a fucking joke.

KonradLaw said:
But isn't it just a game? I mean, it's creator might have tweeted some dubious stuff before, but so what? Did he actually assault somebody? Dox somebody? At worst he's an asshole and there's at least one asshole involved in most of all entertainment products being made. And this isn't Polanski, Chris Brown or that Naughty Dog situations. It's just shitty views and it's hard to get this worked up around this kind of stuff for me.
I mean, it's fine to not buy the game if you don't like the author's opinions, but acting like people not caring about that is some sort of immoral act is weird.
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It isn't weird. You are what you consume. Another futuristic media, Blade Runner, helped me shape a lot of views on life and has, in a way, guided me towards a certain branch in medicine. That was something positive. Now imagine negative media causing negative impact.

Media matters, this is why people do #OscarsSoWhite, this is why people celebrate like it's 4th of July when a minority gets an important role that treats them humanely in media. Just because you can't tell how a piece of media affected you doesn't mean it didn't.

datbapple said:
If you spent 31 years on this earth and you haven't done either of those things or thought dumb ass thoughts you are a more righteous human being then me my g.
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I've done things that I regret, but I've improved from them because I had the insight to understand they were bad things. This man and at least one of his fellow developers, despite his "apology", have continued to agreed to the same toxic ideology that considers certain people subhuman. I'm gonna call that shit out.

CannonFodder52 said:
I'm kinda worried that they're trying to show some kind of future hedonism/degeneracy.
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You can bet that the MC will be a anti-hero at best and a heinous villain at worst.

Bumblebeetuna said:
He's an egalitarian, so I'm very interested in his take on this. And reading interviews about the game and his idea for it, doesn't seem like there's anything that would ruin the narrative. People just lose their shit when they see #gamergate, which he's said multiple times he regrets using.
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He's egalitarian in name only. His views fucking say that women should know their place. Lord forbid that they smoke and drink.

He's literally pulling a "I'm not racist, but..." and a "I'm not a racist, I got black friends!" defense for his shitty views and you didn't even bother to think critically about what he said, but rather took what he said at face value. Yeah, a guy who would regret using an unpopular hate group hashtag wouldn't want to lose money, right?

WhiskeyKnight said:
I did no such thing. I was not making any kind of direct comparisons. The point I was making was about how art can be great even when the artist is an asshole. Out of the examples I mentioned, having a distasteful political opinion is pretty tame!
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This. Shit. Isn't. A. Political. Opinion. Not one that should be viable if you think that "all humans are equal". This guy is spouting hate views that shouldn't be tolerated for reasons I've already exposed.

Stiler said:
From the vice article:

"And I was thinking maybe in this future we came up with artificial wombs. Where you are free from having to carry your kid. And so then you know, cool, you can continue to do what you want. You can work, you can continue to drink or smoke if you want. That's it! I don't think it's bad or good in any way. The only thing I'm trying to say is I'm trying to imagine what could happen if I push that into the future."

This is something that's proposed in many sci-fi works, books, movies, etc. A future where there is no real "family" and society has moved past it.
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Please. People, read between the lines. His game is literally saying this shit is bad, IT'S A FREAKING DYSTOPIA.

Even the latest Blade Runner criticized views that have been proved to be negative to society. This guy drank the Kool-Aid and swears that women getting more rights leads to a negative outcome, under the guise that he's a fucking "egalitarian".
 
J

jimmythepage

Member
And about the "gold coating" fear about this game.
We live in a era that doesn't let that save a game, I mean take a look at all the popular IPs that bombed recently.
For example not even Lawbreakers was saved with all the circus they put up.

If the game ends with a writing that is clearly what people fear (and I HARDLY believe nor Microsoft and RAW FURY will allow that) then it's already dead.

Being an eye candy isn't enough nowadays.
 
W

whyman

Member
Will play this game as I am not a snowfalke. BUT f*ck him for being an idiot. Still if he makes a good product im fine with buying it.
 
D

Deleted member 80556

Unconfirmed Member
whyman said:
Will play this game as I am not a snowfalke. BUT f*ck him for being an idiot. Still if he makes a good product im fine with buying it.
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Snowflake, heh. Do tell us more what you really think of this game.

I think that the real snowflake here is the guy that apologized for his hate views while clearly keeping them in the views of all society. He's a freaking coward that at the first sign of opposition wasn't able to keep them, because he knows he has no ground to stand on, rationally. It's funny that there are more snowflakes in conservative groups than in liberal groups. I mean the current American President has the thinnest skin of all humanity.
 
R

RionaaM

Unconfirmed Member
jimmythepage said:
I think RAW FURY take on the matter should be read.
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This doesn't change anything for me, and I don't see why it should. The guy is a GG supporter, which is a total deal-breaker for me (another example: The Vanishing of Ethan Carter). Even if the publisher likes him, it means nothing more than that: the publisher likes him. I don't. Therefore I will never buy this game.

admiraltaftbar said:
Off topic but fuck Boogie. That dogwhistle "male feminists seem to get in a lot of trouble" is complete dog whistling bullcrap.
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Yep, Mr Boogie "Let's find the middle ground between decency and white supremacy" 2988 is a horible person whose intentions are crystal clear. He's not fooling anyone.
 
K

Keinning

Member
The people blaming microsoft for this know its just a console launch exclusive and it will still hit steam, mac and linux and probably PS4 later as well, right?

I'm not happy that they decided to give this a spotlight in E3 with other amazing and not-made-by-shitheads games, but to use this as ammo for console wars is disingenuous.
 
S

sonicmj1

Member
I watched the IGN video. The part about his influences is a little trite (saying "I'm making a game based on Hong Kong, Blade Runner, and Ghost in the Shell," is the cyberpunk equivalent of talking about your Dark Souls-meets-Symphony of the Night indie game), but it's a very cool look. You can really see how working in a 3D engine lets the game pull off some tricks that would be really hard to do with full-on traditional 2D pixel art. If it can deliver that presentation with the kind of choice-driven open-ended gameplay he promises in the Waypoint interview, it'll be a really interesting product.

Reading that interview, combined with his Twitter history, suggests that he's no more (or less) than someone too far down the internet anti-feminist rabbit hole. Not a harasser, but someone who buys most of the lazy myths. I don't agree with him (and if you're against harassment, you should stop following Ian Miles Cheong), but nothing I've seen is anything I'd blacklist him for.

If the setting of the game comes off the way his 2014 tweets describe it, it'll seem preachy or patronizing and it'll make the game less interesting. If he's serious about what he said in his 2017 interview (that he doesn't want to make a preachy game), then maybe it'll be okay. I think about what he said about living in a society dense with AR, and it'd be tough to imagine an attempt lazier than what Mirror's Edge Catalyst did with the same concept, for example. Being more immersed in that sort of society, but not able to engage with it, could be interesting.

I don't plan on preordering the game, so I'll wait and see how the final product plays out when the game launches ages from now. If the politics are as garbage as he originally promised, I'm sure I'll know beforehand, and I can avoid it.

While works with terrible politics can definitely be harmful, I can't say I've never found uses for them. Back when I was flirting with libertarianism, Atlas Shrugged shocked me into realizing how shit it was by exposing how bogus its premises were.
 
mckmas8808

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
ShironRedshift said:
In all seriousness, that's something that kinda terrifies me about this game, precisely because it's true. The game is beautiful-looking. And I'm sure lots of the GG crowd, and racists, sexists, etc, are paying pretty damn close attention to this game and how it's received and perceived and shit. Because unfortunately, there seems to be a terrifying message here, based on the reactions in discussions about this game: that while people recognize that what those people have to say is terrible and NORMALLY never even so much as give it the time of day, cover it in a beautiful coat of paint, and suddenly people are completely receptive to it, and bend over backwards to give them the benefit of the doubt, assume everything will be okay, and absolutely just have to try it and experience it for themselves.

And that's what terrifies me about this game: if it ends up being successful, no doubt the rest of the GG/4chan/KiA/etc brigade will just keep doing the same thing: make games about the most absolutely terrible stuff, with terrible, pure hateful messages and themes, but just make sure the games have beautiful, stunning artwork/ art direction and the like since apparently that's all it takes to get people's attention. Just the coat of paint. All else will be ignored, as long as it looks pretty.

That certainly ain't a path I want to walk down, with the GG crowd being emboldened by the success of the game and doing the same thing in the future to get their "message" out (since apparently it's that easy to get people's ears), so I can only hope that this game completely craters and the whole thing just falls on its face.

But based on stuff like the IGN piece this thread is about and shit, I'm just scared about how effective tactics like this may in fact be and that we probably will end up seeing more of this in the future, and not less. I hope I'm wrong, but seeing how eager people are to eat this game up simply because it's beautiful and bend over backwards to give the creators and particularly the writer the benefit of the doubt simply because of that fact and that they just have to try it regardless makes me fearful that I'm not, and that things are going to get a whole lot worse before they get better.
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I gotcha 100%. To be honest I'm literally a Social Justice Warrior (at some point we need to own that title and stop acting like it's a bad title to live by), yet if this game was made on the PS4 I think I'd buy it since I only have a PS4.

I'd look at and listen to reviews first, but it'll 100% be in my PS Store wishlist, because it looks just that good. And I'd be conflicted about it the whole time.
 
Z

zashga

Member
I'm not very hopeful for this game being thoughtful or good based on the creator's views. From what he's said it seems the game is very much built around his anti-feminist viewpoint. One of the key points in his scary dystopia is that people (especially women) are even further removed from traditional gender roles. It's weird to think that so many people are actually upset by that idea.

BernardoOne said:
again, let's see the kind of stuff the dude has been putting twitter likes on IN THIS MONTH OF THIS YEAR
altrightfuckwittjsen.png
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Huh, Boogie is getting a lot more... direct.
 
tensuke

tensuke

Member
Juan29.zapata said:
He's egalitarian in name only. His views fucking say that women should know their place. Lord forbid that they smoke and drink.
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He mentioned that because of the artificial wombs, because, you know, women shouldn't drink or smoke while actually pregnant.

But please, continue thinking critically.
 
D

Deleted member 80556

Unconfirmed Member
tensuke said:
He mentioned that because of the artificial wombs, because, you know, women shouldn't drink or smoke while actually pregnant.

But please, continue thinking critically.
Click to expand...

Way to miss my point. There's a reason why he's against "artificial wombs" and relates it to activities that have been related to men rather than women, his argument is essentially "women should know their place in society".
 
B

BiggNife

Member
whyman said:
Will play this game as I am not a snowfalke. BUT f*ck him for being an idiot. Still if he makes a good product im fine with buying it.
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Pro tip: if you actually want to be taken seriously, don't call people who take issue with gross political views "snowflakes."
 
S

sonicmj1

Member
Juan29.zapata said:
Way to miss my point. There's a reason why he's against "artificial wombs" and relates it to activities that have been related to men rather than women, his argument is essentially "women should know their place in society".
Click to expand...

On that subject in the Waypoint interview, he says, "I don't think it's bad or good in any way." When he seemed against it in his 2014 tweets, he equates it with eugenics and the movie Gattaca. While I wouldn't agree that, "Eugenics come with artificial reproduction, automatically," there are ways such technology could be abused, much as how in certain countries where women aren't valued, some people use abortion a form of screening to avoid giving birth to daughters.

People keep saying the game is this or that, when as far as I can tell the game is really far off with barely any meaningful information about what it actually contains.
 
tensuke

tensuke

Member
Juan29.zapata said:
Way to miss my point. There's a reason why he's against "artificial wombs" and relates it to activities that have been related to men rather than women, his argument is essentially "women should know their place in society".
Click to expand...
Is it? I think it's not about a woman's place in society, but in biology. Should we have artificial wombs and grow all these test tube babies, or should women naturally carry children instead? I think cyberpunk, and dystopian futures, have tackled with the debate between biological roles vs artificial technology for a while. You mention Blade Runner, which kind of does the same thing--is it ethical to make artificial humans, and where is their right to exist?

And I like Stiler's quote that
This is something that's proposed in many sci-fi works, books, movies, etc. A future where there is no real "family" and society has moved past it.
Click to expand...
That's an interesting concept to explore, imo. If the game was some kind of dystopian feminist future, it makes sense that artificial wombs would be a part of the world because they would give more power to women (allowing them to still have children without being physically held back from pregnancy and deemed by society as a 'burden' or 'useless' as many are today). Although, from everything they've announced, the game no longer has that direct feminist influence, so I can't really say whether or not the motivations are the same.
 
T

the_darkness

Banned
Wamb0wneD said:
Oh we're still dong the ignore everything people posted yesterday and start the whole disingenous BS nonsense again.
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Nope. I didn't ignore what was posted yesterday, I responded to it. You can piss and moan about tweets he's liked but I'm willing to keep my mind open to the possibility that he's telling the truth when he says explicitly, on multiple occasions that the game isn't about that single 3 year old tweet any more.

Sorry I'm not going to accept your view as my own and just go away like you clearly want me to.
 
C

CheesecakeRecipe

Stormy Grey
the_darkness said:
Nope. I didn't ignore what was posted yesterday, I responded to it. You can piss and moan about tweets he's liked but I'm willing to keep my mind open to the possibility that he's telling the truth when he says explicitly, on multiple occasions that the game isn't about that single 3 year old tweet any more.

Sorry I'm not going to accept your view as my own and just go away like you clearly want me to.
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Still waiting for you to provide receipts, instead of your "opinions". But you won't do that, because you clearly cannot.
 
M

More_Badass

Member
tensuke said:
Is it? I think it's not about a woman's place in society, but in biology. Should we have artificial wombs and grow all these test tube babies, or should women naturally carry children instead? I think cyberpunk, and dystopian futures, have tackled with the debate between biological roles vs artificial technology for a while. You mention Blade Runner, which kind of does the same thing--is it ethical to make artificial humans, and where is their right to exist?
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It would be nice if that was the angle he was considering (aka post-singularity speculative fiction), but it's not

His mindset and tone was that an artifical womb is an extreme outlier that feminists would want, thus implying that feminists wanting to keep smoking/working/drinking is a bad thing. It frames that as a negative, a gateway to eugenics, an extreme scenario to scoff at, as part of the ”scary future" he wants to depict

OPFweOvl.jpg


https://www.twitter.com/_tlr_/status/509864027850145792
 
D

Deleted member 80556

Unconfirmed Member
More_Badass said:
It would be nice if that was the angle he was considering (aka post-singularity speculative fiction), but it's not

His mindset and tone was that an artifical womb is an extreme outlier that feminists would want, thus implying that feminists wanting to keep smoking/working/drinking is a bad thing. It frames that as a negative, a gateway to eugenics, an extreme scenario to scoff at, as part of the ”scary future" he wants to depict

OPFweOv.jpg


https://www.twitter.com/_tlr_/status/509864027850145792
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Pretty much, I still don't understand why people keep taking his word at face value when his apology wasn't even truthful (and did it only in the face of the chance of losing money) and he backpedaled his ideas from "I think this is bad" to "I'll let you decide!", when it's obvious the game is gonna paint it in negative light and relate that negativity towards inclusive views. (BTW, I'm not saying artificial wombs are something inclusive)
 
X

xxracerxx

Don't worry, I'll vouch for them.
L

Llyrwenne

Unconfirmed Member
People are still claiming Gamergate is 'just a different view' / a viewpoint worth considering?
Gamergate is a full-on misogynistic / sexist / bigoted / racist harassment campaign and any view informed by it is those same things.
BernardoOne said:
again, let's see the kind of stuff the dude has been putting twitter likes on IN THIS MONTH OF THIS YEAR
altrightfuckwittjsen.png
Click to expand...
Reminder that Boogie'BothSides'2988 was given an award last year at The Game Awards.

Again; The industry does not care.

They made no attempt to crack down on Gamergate when it started and they're not going to start now that it has been ingrained into gaming culture.
 
T

timetokill

Banned
tensuke said:
He mentioned that because of the artificial wombs, because, you know, women shouldn't drink or smoke while actually pregnant.

But please, continue thinking critically.
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he also mentioned that women wanting to have a baby in an artificial womb because they want to continue smoking, drinking and working is

an

EXTREME

case



... which says a LOT about where he is approaching this topic from.
 
H

hey_it's_that_dog

benevolent sexism
Budi said:
That tweet does point out the problems geek culture has when it comes to treatment of women. I'd retweet it too!
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It's actually a very stupid tweet that conflates "needing" with "having." Progressive spaces have signs like that because they are a statement and enforcement of progressive values. Conservative spaces don't have them, not because they aren't needed but because conservatives don't care about the issue like progressives do.
 
C

CheesecakeRecipe

Stormy Grey
the_darkness said:
"Receipts"?

Do you know what having an open mind actually means?
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Having an open mind has nothing to do with what people were calling you out on yesterday, and you know it. You've continued to shift yourself around once things get uncomfortable to answer. Your arguments have been filled with false equivalences ("Might as well not buy anything because it's all produced by slave-labor!", and "How do you feel about GTA?"), low-key gaslighting ("What evidence is there that the story was about that to begin with?" when your posts are surrounded by posts quoting tweets that tell you exactly that, then later bullshitting a claim of your own that completely ignores the provided context), and at last (getting to your 'open mind' point) handwaving away any and all evidence that the dude hasn't changed simply because one very flawed fluff piece has him skirting around his beliefs and his recent actions directly contradict his claims that he has 'distanced' himself from the very kinds of people he was a part of and catering to as a part of the game's very own inception.

What most of us in the topic are interested in is genuine, honest conversation. You have not provided that. You criticize everyone else for not being 'open minded' while they're showing you very, very specific evidence that there's no reason to trust him, and can't ever actually provide solid counter-evidence. Where are his tweets that tell us what the game is about now? Why is it that every time someone covers the game, it's only to tell people about how pretty the game is (and it is very pretty from an art standpoint, absolutely!) and not covering the story changes it has underwent since he was exposed during E3? As a writer, I am very familiar with needing to scrap large chunks of a story in order to solve problems that arise while trying to make everything come together. The core of the story, however, typically remains the same. I'm honestly not going to believe that Tim tore out the rotten soul of the game's concept when it's this far along until he can show that otherwise. If he did, great! He doesn't get the benefit of the doubt though, as he's lied about pretty much everything else relating to his beliefs and the kinds of people he wants to associate with ideologically. This is where you and the rest of the posters in this topic are split.

So here's what we want from you: For you to actually give us reason to believe in Tim and his game through factual evidence, and not conveniently brush away everything that stands in direct contradiction to your 'open mind' approach. I would really appreciate it if you could, because then there might actually be something worth discussing!
 
tensuke

tensuke

Member
More_Badass said:
It would be nice if that was the angle he was considering (aka post-singularity speculative fiction), but it’s not

His mindset and tone was that an artifical womb is an extreme outlier that feminists would want, thus implying that feminists wanting to keep smoking/working/drinking is a bad thing. It frames that as a negative, a gateway to eugenics, an extreme scenario to scoff at, as part of the “scary future” he wants to depict

OPFweOv.jpg


https://www.twitter.com/_tlr_/status/509864027850145792
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I may be taking this in the wrong direction, I mean I'm not a mind reader, but I was thinking the "scary future" and eugenics stuff is moreso about a lack of emotion and intimacy that comes with artificial wombs. And the "extreme feminists" that want to keep working/drinking/smoking do so not because those are bad things a woman should not do, but because it represents a shift in morals away from the traditional family structure, which I guess in his view (and the game's?) is bad.

We already can perform some form of eugenics with natural pregnancy, but with artificial wombs, you've taken out some of the intimacy of growing your own child inside you for almost a year. Perhaps as a society, because of the convenience, we get more jaded, and just go to a guy, ask for a baby with these qualities, and a few months later we get it. Compared to physically growing the child inside you, which is an intensely emotional experience. I don't know if there are any studies about surrogacy with regards to emotional attachment to your child (I'd imagine the love between mother and child is still very strong), but I do know that surrogate children can have emotional issues from that conflict, which would be a bad thing. The negative association is then not about women eschewing their 'predefined roles' but a further lack of emotion and morals in society as a whole.

I'd think that that's one big place for a perceived moral decline, that as the 'family' dies out people become more apathetic (I mean just look at how apathetic people are today to sensitive issues because of 'funny memes') and the future becomes morally bleak. Everything becomes just a bit more distanced from 'what is supposedly good'.

Again, however, I can't say that's definitely what he was thinking, and it's certainly possible he was just meaning that women wanting to work/smoke/drink instead of make babies is a negative view. I'd like to think that the mind behind such an incredible looking game is a bit smarter than that, that he was misled by GG's true nature, and that the game has changed from a blanket anti-extreme feminism dystopia, but unfortunately they've been pretty light with the details. And all we have to speculate with are his old tweets, which do not look good for him. I hope we turn out wrong, I really do, but I will concede that occam's razor is usually strong in these cases.
 
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