Support NeoGAF

Night Angel · May 6, 2014

ArtHands said:
They were the one who made the initial statement willingly, nobody forced them too. If they were so worried about nobody buying the game if the PS+ version is 80% the content, they shouldn't have made the statement.

I think they should swallow the mistake and honor their words.

That's not how business (or life) works. Situations change. When the dev costs and time (and likely in-game content) ended up significantly higher than anticipated, the deal had to change to maintain profitability. That's all there is to it.

If you hold everyone and everything in your life to this ridiculous standard, you must get disappointed pretty often.

To the above: this "demo" is feature-complete. It is the entire game from a gameplay perspective. When you race with someone with the full game using the same car on the same track, you are playing the exact same game. You will be able to use all of the game's online features that everyone else will. How often does that happen?

Metfanant · May 6, 2014

ArtHands said:
If they were so worried about nobody buying the game if the PS+ version is 80% the content, they shouldn't have made the statement.

except they never made any statements about what % of content it was going to inclide

ArtHands said:
I think they should swallow the mistake and honor their words.

can you point me to "their words" saying exactly how much content we were getting??

ArtHands · May 6, 2014

Night Angel said:
That's not how business (or life) works. Situations change. When the dev costs and time (and likely in-game content) ended up significantly higher than anticipated, the deal had to change to maintain profitability. That's all there is to it.

If you hold everyone and everything in your life to this ridiculous standard, you must get disappointed pretty often.

To the above: this "demo" is feature-complete. It is the entire game from a gameplay perspective. When you race with someone with the full game using the same car on the same track, you are playing the exact same game. You will be able to use all of the game's online features that everyone else will. How often does that happen?

I get what you mean. On the other hand, we really need to push the statement to them that they cant always get a free pass for over-promising and under-delivering. I don't even see anything hint of remorse. No apology, nor explanation for this. Its like a 'take it or leave it' situation that they are giving us.

Metfanant · May 6, 2014

ArtHands said:
I get what you mean. On the other hand, we really need to push the statement to them that they cant always get a free pass for over-promising and under-delivering. I don't even see anything hint of remorse. No apology, nor explanation for this. Its like a 'take it or leave it' situation that they are giving us.

once again...can i have some proof in hard numbers that they have "over promised" or "under delivered?"

quetz67 · May 6, 2014

Metfanant said:
can you point me to "their words" saying exactly how much content we were getting??

"it may be missing a few assets such as cars or tracks"

A "few" is of course not a fixed number, 100 could be a few, but you have to see it in relation and as an opposite of "many"

To determine what it might mean in this case ask yourself, which fits more:
"The PS+ version has many tracks, only a few of the full version are missing"
"The PS+ version only has a few tracks, many of the full version are missing"

otapnam · May 6, 2014

Sony doesnt have to give away AAA games for people to buy their system, I know some of you are used to that though.

Synth · May 6, 2014

quetz67 said:
"it may be missing a few assets such as cars or tracks"

A "few" is of course not a fixed number, 100 could be a few, but you have to see it in relation and as an opposite of "many"

To determine what it might mean in this case ask yourself, which fits more:
"The PS+ version has many tracks, only a few of the full version are missing"
"The PS+ version only has a few tracks, many of the full version are missing"

Yup, this is on point. Hard numbers are not necessary for the quote to have been misleading. I'm not sure why it keeps being requested.

jryi · May 6, 2014

So how much smaller is the PS+ version going to be now, than what it was originally promised to be?

Metfanant · May 6, 2014

quetz67 said:
"it may be missing a few assets such as cars or tracks"

A "few" is of course not a fixed number, 100 could be a few, but you have to see it in relation and as an opposite of "many"

To determine what it might mean in this case ask yourself, which fits more:
"The PS+ version has many tracks, only a few of the full version are missing"
"The PS+ version only has a few tracks, many of the full version are missing"

im sorry...i dont see anywhere in there a promise of more than 10cars/5 tracks

Synth said:
Yup, this is on point. Hard numbers are not necessary for the quote to have been misleading. I'm not sure why it keeps being requested.

it needs to be requested because without numbers you have no proof that you were ever going to get more than 10 cars and 5 tracks

jryi said:
So how much smaller is the PS+ version going to be now, than what it was originally promised to be?

and there is the question that the entitled children cant answer...

Captain Tuttle · May 6, 2014

I wonder if this will be the new PS+ model going forward?

Metfanant · May 6, 2014

Captain Tuttle said:
I wonder if this will be the new PS+ model going forward?

doubt it...remember back to when this was launched...it was inteded to be a selling point for PS+ as it was coming along side Resogun...

i think for the foreseeable future we will continue to receive a more indie/small game focus until the PS4's catalog is built up enough and then we will start seeing older, full on AAA titles hit the service...

my gut tells me Killzone: Shadowfall will be the first AAA game to hit the service for free

Copenap · May 6, 2014

Metfanant said:
im sorry...i dont see anywhere in there a promise of more than 10cars/5 tracks

Your argueing is the equivalent of sticking a finger into your ears and screaming "lalalala I can't hear your" which is pretty annoying since other people have brought up good points for either side of the arguement while your approach isn't benefiting the discussion whatsoever. /rant

Anyways, here's my contribution to the discussion. First of all, this to me is a good example of something not being black or white but simply grey. Therefore, both sides of the discussion are right and wrong.

#Defender: The comments regarding the PS+ version were made with a different premise and things changed. Nobody can deny that and with these changes which include an increased financial stake by Sony they also had to reevaluate the PS+ offer. I think this is understandable and reasonable.

#Attacker: However, that does not mean Sony is free of fault. One thing is also not deniable, what we will get is not what we where innitially promised. Some PR comments have been pretty clear and that's not what is happening now. As I said before, things change so that is ok but Sony has to take the blame for talking to early about stuff that wasn't really fixed at that point. Though it is understandable that Sony wanted some good press with this in the lead up to the console release it is to me at least perfectly understandable why some people would be disappointed by this.

Synth · May 6, 2014

Metfanant said:
it needs to be requested because without numbers you have no proof that you were ever going to get more than 10 cars and 5 tracks

It's not however required in order to state that the product no longer matches the previous description, which is what people are actually saying. If 10 cars and 5 tracks was previously the majority, then in order for it to remain faithful to what they previously stated, it should have grown in proportion with the rest of the game. Nobody else chose to have the game delayed a year, so why should people be pleased if that time has been used for aspects of the game that they don't receive?

Let's put this another way. Imagine that the full game now has 10 cars and 5 tracks after a year delay (PS+ version never existed in this scenario), and there is another lets say 40 cars and 20 tracks available as day one DLC. Would you not criticise this? After all, there is no proof that pre-delay you were ever going to get more than 10 cars and 5 tracks. All they had told you was that the main game would only be missing "a few cars and tracks that will be available as DLC". They had however already shown 5 different countries worth of track content, of which the main retail game now only consists of one. Would you be an entitled child for voicing your disapproval of this change in the project?

Metfanant said:
and there is the question that the entitled children cant answer...

Saying that developers shouldn't describe their game in a way that does not match the finished product is not people being "entitled children", and this discussion would have been a lot more civil on both sides if this name-calling wasn't always thrown in the direction of anyone that disagrees. I'm definitely not feeling "entitled" as I was always buying the full version anyway. That doesn't stop me from agreeing that the free offering was oversold in the previous statements.

If 5 tracks were always the majority by the way, it makes it largely unrealistic that they were all contained to one of 5 countries. So, it's pretty much certain that free players are at the very least losing out on track variety now.

quetz67 · May 6, 2014

Metfanant said:
im sorry...i dont see anywhere in there a promise of more than 10cars/5 tracks

Then you are stupid, unless you think the full game has less than 20cars/10tracks...which would be...stupid?!

Synth · May 6, 2014

quetz67 said:
Then you are stupid, unless you think the full game has less than 20cars/10tracks...which would be...stupid?!

And even then it would require track split between the 5 countries to be 5:1:1:1:1 in order to not have given you access to any other country.

Hellshy. · May 6, 2014

arbok26 said:
If they said that in the recent announcements id be disappointed in them.

How is what basically amounts to a demo the same as the full version?

I would call it a demo if most features were locked and you could only progress so far in the one or two features that are unlocked but since every feature is unlocked its far from a demo in my book.

I dont understand why people are getting upset over this. The fact that we are getting what we are even after the long delay is awesome. They probably planned on including more before the delay. I am no expert but I am sure they went over budget with a delay like that.

cackhyena · May 6, 2014

Metfanant said:
doubt it...remember back to when this was launched...it was inteded to be a selling point for PS+ as it was coming along side Resogun...

i think for the foreseeable future we will continue to receive a more indie/small game focus until the PS4's catalog is built up enough and then we will start seeing older, full on AAA titles hit the service...

my gut tells me Killzone: Shadowfall will be the first AAA game to hit the service for free

Eh, I could see them trying for something like AC4 before Killzone.

Ted · May 6, 2014

Metfanant said:
and there is the question that the entitled children cant answer...

I'm going to need hard numbers here...

What is your definition of children? Are we talking 1-16 ans? 1-18 ans? 1-21 ans? How many entitled children are there? Enough to fend off a crocodile? What about a bear? If I stacked them end on end would they reach the stars?

Metfanant · May 6, 2014

quetz67 said:
Then you are stupid, unless you think the full game has less than 20cars/10tracks...which would be...stupid?!

So you have proof that if this game launched in November that we would have gotten more than 10 cars and 5 tracks?....

Ted said:
I'm going to need hard numbers here...

What is your definition of children? Are we talking 1-16 ans? 1-18 ans? 1-21 ans? How many entitled children are there? Enough to fend off a crocodile? What about a bear? If I stacked them end on end would they reach the stars?

2/10...but only for using punctuation...

cackhyena said:
Eh, I could see them trying for something like AC4 before Killzone.

I say Killzone because it's first party...easier for Sony to secure rights (obvi) and eat the cost...

The Llama · May 6, 2014

Captain Tuttle said:
I wonder if this will be the new PS+ model going forward?

Nah, too much work for devs IMO. Works well for a racing game like this, but would be hard to shift this model to other genres. I see the future of PS+ basically being what it is now, a free indie game or 2 every month. Don't think we'll see many AAA games (or even stuff like Knack) for another year or 2.

lord · May 6, 2014

I'm fine with that for 4.16$ (50/12 months) racing games are like sports games for me,I never need more than a demo (unless it's burnout)

Metfanant · May 6, 2014

lord said:
I'm fine with that for 4.16$ (50/12 months) racing games are like sports games for me,I never need more than a demo (unless it's burnout)

How can you break down PS+ like that?...you're completely disregarding the value of PS3 games, Vita games, be online multiplayer...

Ted · May 6, 2014

Metfanant said:
2/10...but only for using punctuation...

i regret punctuating

jryi · May 6, 2014

Synth said:
It's not however required in order to state that the product no longer matches the previous description, which is what people are actually saying.

So in absolute terms, how much less are people getting with PS+ version than what was promised a year ago? How much did the PS+ version shrink? Are there less cars, less tracks, anything less? How large a game was I supposed to get? If the game had been launched in November and there had been new DLC packs coming monthly, would Sony have given 80% of the DLC's to PS+ subscribers or would neglecting that been lying?

Or is it really like I wrote earlier, that the uproar is about the full version being -- should I say -- almost too good?

Synth · May 6, 2014

jryi said:
So in absolute terms, how much less are people getting with PS+ version than what was promised a year ago? How much did the PS+ version shrink? Are there less cars, less tracks, anything less? How large a game was I supposed to get? If the game had been launched in November and there had been new DLC packs coming monthly, would Sony have given 80% of the DLC's to PS+ subscribers or would neglecting that been lying?

Or is it really like I wrote earlier, that the uproar is about the full version being -- should I say -- almost too good?

What has changed can't be given in absolute terms, because the original description was not in absolute terms. They used relative terms in their description, so people are applying those relative terms to the current project.

I'm not sure how we get to the idea that the problem is because the retail version is now "almost too good" (seriously?... what?...). The retail version doesn't currently appear to have unusually large amounts of content. The DLC defense doesn't work in this situation's favour either (hell I used it as an example of the opposite a few posts up). If this had played out the way you stated, and the DLC was added on top of the base package, and not given to owners of the free version... those people would have still received the game, as described, a year ago, rather than waiting an additional year for shit they don't qualify to receive. More importantly, all five currently known locations were already present back then. So the idea that "all this stuff was probably added due to the delay" is reaching really, really far. Unless there were 5 tracks for country 1, and one track for everywhere else, it's not even possible for the current offering to even be equal to the original launch version. People will have waited a year to obtain less track variety than before!

I understand that things probably got complicated along the way, and it became unfeasible for Evolution to offer it as initially planned. I don't want to see my favourite (now Studio Liverpool are gone) of Sony's internal studios shut down because DriveClub cost too much to make, and then had to be given away rather than sold, based off previous commitments. They have to do what they have to do. However, that does not mean people shouldn't be able to express their disappointment that something they were led to believe would be one thing, has turned out to be something quite different. If anything, it's important to ensure situations like this only occur when the studio has no alternative, and not simply because they've changed their minds. Otherwise, fuck it, say you're going to offer the world at the start of any project... you can always just scale it back to something more realistic later. Worked for Molyneux I guess.

jryi · May 6, 2014

So if the scope of full version hadn't been broadened, everybody would be happy?

Night Angel · May 6, 2014

I'll try and make it simple:

What they said a year ago may have been accurate for the game they had as of last year. We don't know, we can't prove otherwise.

The game has changed significantly. It has had an extra year of dev time. What they said last year no longer applies to this different product. For all we know, we are getting the exact same amount of content with the free version as we would have last year.

No one lied; things changed.

Gestault · May 6, 2014

Metfanant said:
im sorry...i dont see anywhere in there a promise of more than 10cars/5 tracks

it needs to be requested because without numbers you have no proof that you were ever going to get more than 10 cars and 5 tracks

and there is the question that the entitled children cant answer...

You've been astonishingly insincere, throughout this whole discussion.

Synth · May 6, 2014

jryi said:
So if the scope of full version hadn't been broadened, everybody would be happy?

You've made such an effort to ignore everything in my previous posts that I'm not going to type a load more text out just for you to ignore again. All I'm going to reiterate is that they had already shown 5 countries, and the demo version now contains only 1 of them. So the narrative you're creating is BS. It's less than was indicated before.

Night Angel said:
I'll try and make it simple:

What they said a year ago may have been accurate for the game they had as of last year. We don't know, we can't prove otherwise.

The game has changed significantly. It has had an extra year of dev time. What they said last year no longer applies to this different product. For all we know, we are getting the exact same amount of content with the free version as we would have last year.

No one lied; things changed.

If the game changed significantly, because it's been an additional year.. and yet those that have waited this additional year see none of the content that was creating in that time... then yea, that's a reason to be unhappy with the situation. If the had said the free version contains X amount of cars and Y amount of tracks, then any change in the retail version's content would be unquestioned. They didn't though, they said "a few" tracks would be missing, the opposing balance to that is that "most tracks" were available. This is not the case now. And again, all 5 countries that we're currently aware of already existed. So in order to have been accurate at the time, there basically had to be more than 1 of these countries available to play for free.

Gestault said:
You've been astonishingly insincere, throughout this whole discussion.

Yup. It's continuously been "can you prove there was going to be more than 10 cars and 5 tracks", when that's pretty much never been the content of any post he's replied to. It's ridiculous.

quetz67 · May 6, 2014

Metfanant said:
So you have proof that if this game launched in November that we would have gotten more than 10 cars and 5 tracks

I don't care what would have been. They said they remove only a few cars/tracks and 80% can't by any measure taken as "few".

I personally don't even care, it is a demo on the rather huge side, more than I need for like 3/month I pay for PS+.

Complaining and moaning about a les than expected/announced version is one thing. Lying to yourself by saying they never announced more is another thing. It is a fact they announced more and denying it is stupid.

Ridill · May 6, 2014

This is all silly to me. I mean, I get the group that is moaning, but realistically what else do you expect? This was branded from the beginning as the ps plus edition. Did you really think that the only difference was going to be, at the time, the exclusion of one or two tracks? One or two cars? No way, at least that was my impression from the initial statements. Yes they said it was slightly scaled down, but I took it as poorly chosen words.

The game has changed considerably since it was first announced, as many have pointed out. This was supposed to be a launch/window game...so I'm sure their original vision of the game completely changed. And maybe, in a business pov, it makes no sense to scale up the "ps plus edition". I mean I don't know, I did not work on the game, nor do I know the logistics of releasing both versions.

Idk, I guess blame sony for not putting out their initial product?

unapersson · May 6, 2014

I've always seen it this way, there are two parts: the game and the content (cars/tracks). We were told the PS+ version would be a version of the game that you can platinum, but that it would be a cut down version in terms of cars/tracks.

The quibbling all seems to be over how much content is going to be delivered rather than how much game.

I don't think there's been any change to what is coming with the PS+ version, it's pretty much as expected giving the careful use of language at the time. There were never any statements about the actual number of cars/tracks. What we did know is that there would be a cost to upgrade to the full version, just not how much it would be. So I think it's somewhat disingenuous to claim they were promising the majority of the content in the plus version, as otherwise why would it even be worth paying to upgrade to the full version?

It's not without precedent for a game to have a platinum trophy for the base game, with additional trophy sets coming along with content. They said there would be frequent updates with more content, so it may well be the additional time has meant more of these are included up front. We won't know unless someone says one way or another, but it does seem a bit of a stretch given what we know to claim that the plus version has been pared back further than what was originally intended.

ArtHands · May 7, 2014

Its not a stretch even if there haven't been any change to what is coming with the PS+ version, because we know at least 5 countries were confirmed through videos laat year. We have 1 now.

Cubed · May 7, 2014

I'm going to break the mold and not even offer an opinion on whether or not this is a rip off.

Instead, I just want to say that I'm still itching for this game and this "extended demo" can't come soon enough. I will likely play this game for about a week or two and then cave-in and buy the full retail disc version.

The Llama · May 7, 2014

Honestly, I think whether you're mad or not just comes down to what your initial expectations were. For me, my expectations for the PS+ version were always pretty low, so I don't really care about what I'm getting. But if had expected more, of course I'd be mad. Doesn't mean anyone is right or wrong.

Deleted member 80556 · May 7, 2014

SMH, Rushy, seriously. Can't believe a developer would pull an Amir0x on us. At least Ami had the decency to do it with a small thing and apologize afterwards.

Metfanant said:
THEY didnt promise anything...you assumed based on a GAF post from one of their employees...lol

You mean that a person who represents the developer studio can just talk BS because he's on GAF? Seriously? If it were PS Blog, would it make a difference?

Metfanant · May 7, 2014

Juan29.zapata said:
SMH, Rushy, seriously. Can't believe a developer would pull an Amir0x on us. At least Ami had the decency to do it with a small thing and apologize afterwards.

You mean that a person who represents the developer studio can just talk BS because he's on GAF? Seriously? If it were PS Blog, would it make a difference?

No...not talk BS...but the use of one aingle word in a GAF post should not be the basis for the kind of outrage in this thread

Deleted member 80556 · May 7, 2014

Metfanant said:
No...not talk BS...but the use of one aingle word in a GAF post should not be the basis for the kind of outrage in this thread

Well, I guess Amir0x should be a mod again, since he only removed a couple of words from his posts.

Amir0x · May 7, 2014

All people like Penello and Rush have to do is apologize and change their behavior.

People have long memories on the internet and it's their right not to forgive or forget, but when I fucked up, I apologized immediately and now every post I edit I try to remember to put EDIT in big letters, because I want to learn from my mistake and not let my ego get the best of me again.

It's a little early to say Rush won't do that, still maybe has to get time to get a finalized answer and formulate a response, but he needs to definitely be up front with what is going on and apologize where applicable. Where their customers, no need to treat us this way. Other people may not forgive, but I do. Just like anything, once the apology comes, they have to change their behavior. And then I know I am personally willing to forget it ever happened.

KalBalboa · May 7, 2014

Should this thread be updated to reflect this:

One of the recurring questions we keep seeing is about the scale of the PlayStation Plus Edition. The simple answer is that with an active PlayStation Plus subscription, you can download DRIVECLUB PlayStation Plus Edition, which comes with one location (India), 11 tracks, 10 cars and access to all game modes.

Metfanant · May 7, 2014

Juan29.zapata said:
Well, I guess Amir0x should be a mod again, since he only removed a couple of words from his posts.

Couldn't care less if he was a mod again or not...

Amir0x said:
All people like Penello and Rush have to do is apologize and change their behavior.

People have long memories on the internet and it's their right not to forgive or forget, but when I fucked up, I apologized immediately and now every post I edit I try to remember to put EDIT in big letters, because I want to learn from my mistake and not let my ego get the best of me again.

It's a little early to say Rush won't do that, still maybe has to get time to get a finalized answer and formulate a response, but he needs to definitely be up front with what is going on and apologize where applicable. Where their customers, no need to treat us this way. Other people may not forgive, but I do. Just like anything, once the apology comes, they have to change their behavior. And then I know I am personally willing to forget it ever happened.

I agree completely...I think transparency would be great, but at the same time you're still looking at a situation here where we don't know what we were originally getting...so we have nothing to compare it to...

I would like to see Rushy say that the use of the word few was a mistake on his part originally...

Synth · May 7, 2014

KalBalboa said:
Should this thread be updated to reflect this:

From the OP:

The PlayStation Plus Edition hasnt changed. Its hardly a demo because you get access to all of the games features online and offline. The difference is that you only have 10 cars and you can only race in one country (which gives you access to 5 tracks with 11 distinct variants)

Thread is fine as is.

Bucket-o-roadkill · May 7, 2014

TechnicPuppet said:
There aren't any XB1 games with gold yet though.

Very true, and the way this is going I fully expect MS to bring out the 'extended demo' approach in future.

ArtHands · May 7, 2014

Metfanant said:
once again...can i have some proof in hard numbers that they have "over promised" or "under delivered?"

I guess you have the proof that you has been asking for now.

55 tracks and 50 cars, which is indeed 80% of content removed from the final version, resulting in 11 tracks (5 tracks with distinctive variations and 10 cars)

So can we now agree that the ps+ version isnt quite the"slightly scaled down" version they said it will be?

Louis Cyphre · May 8, 2014

If youre an active PlayStation Plus subscriber and have been playing the PlayStation Plus Edition, but decide you want the full DRIVECLUB experience, you can purchase a one-time upgrade for $49.99. This will give you access to all five locations, 55 tracks, 50 cars and all 50 tour events, as long as your PlayStation Plus subscription remains active.

That's not really that good to be quite honest. It will still cost $50 and you have to maintain a Plus subscription to keep the game.

Support NeoGAF

PS+ version of Driveclub will have 5 tracks (1 country) and 10 cars.

Member

Member

Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch

Member

Banned

Member

Member

Senior Analyst, Fanboy Drivel Research Partners LLC

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Banned

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Senior Analyst, Fanboy Drivel Research Partners LLC

Member

Senior Analyst, Fanboy Drivel Research Partners LLC

Member

Member

Member

Banned

Member

Member

Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch

Member

Member

Deleted member 80556

Unconfirmed Member

Member

Deleted member 80556

Unconfirmed Member

Banned

Banned

Member

Member

Member

Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch

Banned

Similar threads