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[gutterboy44]

Since GT5 my feelings on GT have really been an ambivalent mess. GT6 did nothing to calm my feelings on that franchise. However, I can definitively say, I would never buy a GT game if I did not have a wheel to support it. Playing a racing sim, even one that has decent programming for controllers like GT, is utterly worthless to me without a wheel. It takes away all the joy for me.

Getting a PS4 in September is already a "sell" to the wife. Trying to justify another racing wheel isn't going to happen and for good cause. I would end up with racing wheels costing more than the fucking PS4 itself. I don't think Driveclub is going to give a shit about Logitech and now that PD is a Thurstmaster partner and it took nearly a year (maybe even over a year?) for them to add basic button configuration support to their old BFF Logitech wheels in GT5, this does not bode well. I think by the time GT7 comes out, either you own a Thrustmasters wheel and use that, or you don't play GT7 with a wheel.

Come on Microcenter! Save us all. Put the T500 on sale for $150

 

[Jotaka]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhstyHwFpS0

 

[MoGamesXNA]

.

 

[serversurfer]

Major congratulations to all of those who read all this.

Actually, the very end is where I think you lost me. lol

My reading of the legalese you quoted is that Sony has the right to use Immersion's tech, hereafter referred to as Rumble, in PlayStations and PlayStation controllers, even if those controllers are made by third parties. So if Mad Catz wants to make a controller for the PS3 with Rumble, Sony are within their rights to allow Mad Catz to coat-tail on Sony's Rumble license. This is because the controller in question only works with the PS3. Sony are prohibited from extending their license to third parties* making controllers that also work with non-PlayStation devices. For example, the Logitech wheels, which also work on PC.

So Sony can sub-license "PlayStation controllers" all day long, but their license doesn't extend to authorization of multi-platform devices. For that, you would need to negotiate with Immersion directly. So it seems likely that Logitech negotiated directly with Immersion to license the wheels for use on two platforms; PS3 and PC. Not PlayStation and PC, or Consoles and PC, but specifically the PS3 and PC. Now, if they want their hardware to work with an additional platform, such as the PS4, Logitech would need to go back to Immersion and negotiate a new contract to cover the new platform.

Lastly, the overall impression I'm getting is that Immersion considers every iteration of a console to be a unique platform requiring fresh negotiations, but the "PC platform" just covers the ever-changing definition of PC through the end of time. So basically, Logitech already have a deal with Immersion to support PC forever, and PS3 for as long as people buy them, but no other platforms, including other PlayStations.

So now Logitech are in the position of needing to re-pay Immersion for supporting a new platform on hardware they've already sold; releasing a G28 whose only differentiating feature is "works on PS4;" or "getting out of the console business" and coasting along on the PC license they've already negotiated, since unlike their console license, it doesn't have an effective expiration date.

Speaking of expiration dates, how much longer do we need to deal with this stupid patent anyway?? ><

Incidentally, my interpretation of Sony's Option as described in the MS filing was not that it was discussing re-licensing old controllers for new platforms, but rather if Sony decided to port Uncharted 2 over to PC, then they'd have the Option of including Rumble in the port, and would then pay $10M to do the port, plus 25¢ per copy sold.

*Edit: Come to think of it, it says Sony can't make multi-platform controllers either. That would explain why the DualShocks don't get official support on PC; they'd either need to leave out Rumble on PC, or basically double the licensing fee they pay to Immersion for every single controller they sell, no matter who buys it, PC or PS.

Me?

In that I'd be happy to pay Immersion a £10 "license" to enable use of my G27 on PS4.

I actually had the same thought. Similar to when Apple had to charge us like $10 to be allowed to update the Wi-Fi firmware or whatever that was.

The main hurdle I can see would be that Immersion would be within their rights to say, "No, you need to pay us $10 for every piece of hardware you've ever sold, whether they download the PS4 driver or not," and that sounds like something Immersion would say.

Also, there are also the issues of whether Sony even has the infrastructure in place to deliver drivers to some users and not others; whether this re-licensing will indeed be done per-user, or per-console, or per-wheel&#8230;

 

[JonnyKtyler]

I'm gonna be a lot less interested in drive club if my GT pro doesn't work. Sad times

 

[mattp]

son of a bitch, is this why i can't use my ps3 sticks on ps4? ugh
fucking bummer

 

[serversurfer]

I'm gonna be a lot less interested in drive club if my GT pro doesn't work. Sad times

Driveclub is somewhat arcadey, so it may not be such a great loss.

What's really sad is last gen, when I finally took the plunge and got myself a wheel, I went with the DFGT over the nicer G27, reasoning that as the official wheel of GT, the DFGT would be "guaranteed" support going forward. ><

 

[paskowitz]

It sure would be nice is someone from the press gave a damn about this...

 

[Proc]

Come on

I bought a g27 wheel this year too. Luckily discounted. Guess I'll continue to play serious racing games on PC and not buy into a ps4 remake of gran turismo.

 

[Fried Food]

I have to agree. Playing GT5 with a controller after exclusively playing it on my rig + G27 was eye opening. I'll never consider playing a racing sims without a decent wheel on hand again. It's just not the same.

This. I refuse to buy a console sim racer without G27 wheel support. I'm hesitant to even consider arcade racers without it.

Sony,

I'm not going to buy Driveclub or GT7 on Playstation 4 Computer Entertainment System until the G27 is FULLY supported.

Thanks,

Me

 

[Theognosis]

Goodbye PS4. There's no way I'm going to buy 6 more controllers for sports games and another steering wheel for your midrange PC "console". You have abandoned PS3 backwards compatibility and now this?

It's PC, 3DS and Wii U for me this generation. My PS3 will be used for sports and driving games for now. I don't care about graphics anyway since I go to the real track and use my PS3 strictly for practice.

 

[BradleyLove]

I actually had the same thought. Similar to when Apple had to charge us like $10 to be allowed to update the Wi-Fi firmware or whatever that was.

The main hurdle I can see would be that Immersion would be within their rights to say, "No, you need to pay us $10 for every piece of hardware you've ever sold, whether they download the PS4 driver or not," and that sounds like something Immersion would say.

Also, there are also the issues of whether Sony even has the infrastructure in place to deliver drivers to some users and not others; whether this re-licensing will indeed be done per-user, or per-console, or per-wheel…

I can't see why an app couldn't be bought from the PS4 store which is the relevant license/driver pack? Licensing aside, I can't think of any technical reason why it couldn't be deployed via a PSN purchase.

 

[GSG Flash]

Not buying either Driveclub or GT7, or any racing sims on the PS4 for that matter, without G27 support. I can't play racing sims without a wheel anymore, but I'm not about to plunk down ridiculous amounts of money for a Thrustmaster wheel when I already paid a hefty sum for my G27.

Me?

In that I'd be happy to pay Immersion a £10 "license" to enable use of my G27 on PS4.

This would work. Paying $10 for a license key vs $500+ for a racing wheel, seems pretty simple to me.

 

[isamu]

Here we go again.

Once again people. PC is the way to go. I've already explained in a billion other threads the advantages of playing racing games exclusively on the PC. Sure, if your mouth was watering in anticipation of Drive Club or GT7, making the decision not to play them will sting a little, but trust me you'll get over it. The amount of fantastic racing games available on PC, especially if you include emulation, is sickening.

 

[Chris R]

Could the offer some kind of dongle that would allow them to work? I'd love to be able to use my DFGT on the PS4 at some point

 

[BradleyLove]

Here we go again.

Once again people. PC is the way to go. I've already explained in a billion other threads the advantages of playing racing games exclusively on the PC. Sure, if your mouth was watering in anticipation of Drive Club or GT7, making the decision not to play them will sting a little, but trust me you'll get over it. The amount of fantastic racing games available on PC, especially if you include emulation, is sickening.

Here we go again.

Not everyone owns or wants a PC.

 

[Vigilant Gambit]

Looks like Gran Turismo 6 is all I'll get for the forseeable future.

 

[serversurfer]

I can't see why an app couldn't be bought from the PS4 store which is the relevant license/driver pack? Licensing aside, I can't think of any technical reason why it couldn't be deployed via a PSN purchase.

Well, because drivers and applications aren't the same thing, basically. Drivers are part of the operating system.

If it actually works more like a library, you may be able to implement it sorta like DLC, but then you'd need to have a single piece of DLC which magically worked across all games, or you'd need to re-release the DLC for every game that supports a wheel, and sell it with some kind of weird Cross-Buy setup.

Or have the "DLC" included in the game itself, and then check for a local, universal auth file.

So, yeah, not really as simple as it sounds.

 

[BradleyLove]

Well, because drivers and applications aren't the same thing, basically. Drivers are part of the operating system.

If it actually works more like a library, you may be able to implement it sorta like DLC, but then you'd need to have a single piece of DLC which magically worked across all games, or you'd need to re-release the DLC for every game that supports a wheel, and sell it with some kind of weird Cross-Buy setup.

Or have the "DLC" included in the game itself, and then check for a local, universal auth file.

So, yeah, not really as simple as it sounds.

Wut?

An application that when run, installs the drivers into the OS. You know, like GeForce drivers, or monitor drivers, etc...

Yes, it's very simple. The only complexity besides licensing I can think of might be security in that PSN "apps" (programs, packages, whatever you want to call them) are unable to modify the OS/drivers.

 

[Seanspeed]

Here we go again.

Not everyone owns or wants a PC.

Ok. Point is - PC is the way to go if you want good wheel support. If you don't want to go PC, then I guess you'll be stuck with extremely limited support. Your choice.

 

[cookie-monster]

"security"

cashflow security

 

[BradleyLove]

Ok. Point is - PC is the way to go if you want good wheel support. If you don't want to go PC, then I guess you'll be stuck with extremely limited support. Your choice.

So instead of expressing disappointment and having a discussion, maybe even tweeting Shu in process, we should just suck it up and go PC? Right, gotcha.

This is a thread about Logitech wheel support on PS4. It has nothing to do with PC. Bringing the PC into the discussion is counter-productive and doesn't help anyone.

Anyone who is keen enough to buy a decent wheel will already be more than aware of the PC potential.

Pointless, pointless comments.

 

[madmackem]

Its the risk you take when you buy any expensive add on, you buy knowing full well what it supports future support is a lotto. Does anything carry over on either the xbox one or ps4?.

 

[blastprocessor]

No wonder devs have been coy about support for Logitech wheels. Now it's clear.

 

[amar212]

I can't see why an app couldn't be bought from the PS4 store which is the relevant license/driver pack? Licensing aside, I can't think of any technical reason why it couldn't be deployed via a PSN purchase.

You should probably direct that question over Immersion Corporation.

I agree it could be done probably - from technical side - but I do not see any logic for that from the side of patent-holder: Immersion Corp.

If even 100.000 legacy-wheels owners would purchase such "license" for 10$, they would earn mere 1 million $, probably even less once some other costs are involved.

In the same time, they earned 200M combined from 2005-2007 Microsoft-Sony settlements, and both were for damages.

They are making serious amounts of money as corporate-player, they are not charity company for individual users who would pay some "licenses" on individual-base. They simply do not care about our "10$", because such deal would probably undermine their overall business-model for partners.

Just take a brief look at their list of patents from past 20 years. Amazing, yes?

I see no way to resolve this on this way. Technically, yeah. Practically? Yes, if Logitech pays for licenses and patents fees. Other solution? None.

 

[Vigilant Gambit]

What's stopping an individual developer from writing userspace drivers for "unsupported" wheels?

 

[xValentine]

Here we go again.

Once again people. PC is the way to go. I've already explained in a billion other threads the advantages of playing racing games exclusively on the PC. Sure, if your mouth was watering in anticipation of Drive Club or GT7, making the decision not to play them will sting a little, but trust me you'll get over it. The amount of fantastic racing games available on PC, especially if you include emulation, is sickening.

isamu
OMFG HOLY MOTHER OF MARY IN HEAVEN I CANT BELIEVE IT WTF WHERE ARE MY SEDATIVES AAAAHHH
(Today, 12:22 AM)

 

[psn]

Ok. Point is - PC is the way to go if you want good wheel support. If you don't want to go PC, then I guess you'll be stuck with extremely limited support. Your choice.

I play on both, PCars member since the beginning, AC, GTR series etc. But they are no competition for a game like Gran Turismo (content wise). PCars feels like a handful of cars, AC at least has mod support and feels really good.. but none of them feel so complete like Gran Turismo. They are all doing a step in the right direction but.. you miss out great games by going PC only.

I'm sure somebody will close the gap that Logitech left.

Don't blame it all on Sony, it was Logitechs decision to quit the wheel support.

 

[DogMeat77]

Sony pls.

Looks like my PS4 will continue to look sad in all of its dusty filth. I just recently bought a G27 for PC so that is where my racing shall stay I suppose.

 

[Freeman]

This pisses me so much. I would get a PS4 right now if I knew I could just use my DFGT to play games on it otherwise I'm just getting a new GPU for the time being.

The software side of PS4 is just a complete mess, this should be a simple thing. Completely disappointing.

 

[BloodMoney]

Just now reading the OP... feel like I got kicked in the balls.

 

[seattle6418]

Why can't things like this be like computers? It's USB, it works, end of story.

Damn, his is going to be a nightmare. I already know about this for a time, but it's like a nightmare that i don't want to face.

I hate when things are complicated and involve lawsuits and security breaches...

 

[thatmariolover]

Soooo. Can somebody not make a Male/Female USB dongle with the security controller in it that just acts as an interface between old peripherals and the PS4?

 

[serversurfer]

Wut?

An application that when run, installs the drivers into the OS. You know, like GeForce drivers, or monitor drivers, etc...

Yes, it's very simple. The only complexity besides licensing I can think of might be security in that PSN "apps" (programs, packages, whatever you want to call them) are unable to modify the OS/drivers.

A console isn't a PC; it's a lot more locked down than that. You can't just shove a disc in it and start installing drivers, which what you're doing on PC, whether the installer was bundled on a game disc, an app disc, or came directly from the peripheral manufacturer.

The only time I've ever heard of a game doing updates on a console is if it includes a firmware updater for the entire OS to meet minimum requirements for running the game. So No Man's Sky won't ship with a copy of the Morpheus drivers, but it might ship with a copy of OS 2.34, which includes them.

Follow?

You should probably direct that question over Immersion Corporation.

I agree it could be done probably - from technical side - but I do not see any logic for that from the side of patent-holder: Immersion Corp.

If even 100.000 legacy-wheels owners would purchase such "license" for 10$, they would earn mere 1 million $, probably even less once some other costs are involved.

In the same time, they earned 200M combined from 2005-2007 Microsoft-Sony settlements, and both were for damages.

They are making serious amounts of money as corporate-player, they are not charity company for individual users who would pay some "licenses" on individual-base. They simply do not care about our "10$", because such deal would probably undermine their overall business-model for partners.

Just take a brief look at their list of patents from past 20 years. Amazing, yes?

I see no way to resolve this on this way. Technically, yeah. Practically? Yes, if Logitech pays for licenses and patents fees. Other solution? None.

It's Logitech's bill to pay, but I really can't see anyone apart from Sony actually being willing to cough up the money, and then only if they're selling so many PS4s that paying off Immersion becomes a comparatively "small price to pay" to keep a few loyal users just as loyal.

So, if Immersion wants $100M to make the old wheels compatible, that's a pretty big bill for Sony to swallow with only 10M of the new product in the wild, but maybe not so bad when you're well on your way to 50M and dominating the market.

 

[darkwing]

Soooo. Can somebody not make a Male/Female USB dongle with the security controller in it that just acts as an interface between old peripherals and the PS4?

would that break the licensing agreement Immersion Corporation has?

 

[serversurfer]

I think the security chip story is bogus; the Thrustmaster wheels seem to disprove it effectively enough.

Logitech need to port the drivers to PS4. That's already been done, because Thrustmaster is using the drivers in one of their wheels. All that's left now is to pay Immersion for permission to publish the drivers for use with Logitech wheels. That's the sticking point; paying Immersion retroactively to allow PS4 compatibility for hardware which may never be connected to a PS4.

Let's say Logitech sold 10M wheels. Immersion will want full payment for all 10M, even if 7M of them only got used on PC, and a mere 2M actually make the PS3>PS4 transition. That's not an attractive deal to anyone but Immersion.

 

[thatmariolover]

would that break the licensing agreement Immersion Corporation has?

Certainly, if Immersion Corporation were to make it themselves.

But I see potential for an unlicensed device that would magically make your old peripherals work.

 

[zephervack]

This licensing issue makes no sense, why would Sony/Logi need to pay Immersion now?

Didnt immersion get their money when customers bought the Logi wheels in the first place?

Or will the wheels not work unless some Immersion software gets installed in the PS4's firmware?

 

[Various Artists]

Wont buy GT7 unless I can use my DFGT. I figured since it was GT branded it would always be supported. I dont want a closet full of wheels just because licensing can't be straightened out. I will just hope Project Cars is good and my lowly 580 can run it at PS4 settings.

 

[brotkasten]

This licensing issue makes no sense, why would Sony/Logi need to pay Immersion now?

Didnt immersion get their money when customers bought the Logi wheels in the first place?

Or will the wheels not work unless some Immersion software gets installed in the PS4's firmware?

The license Logitech bought from Immersion only covered the PS3 and PC platform. Any additional platform needs a new license they'd have to buy from immersion.

 

[Senaxx]

To be clear, the PS3 was not hacked because of USB. The fault was not in the USB layer. Simply the JIG that could be made had to be insert trough USB. But there was no fault in the USB connection / software / security itself.

The JIG allowed to enter the Factory Service mode. This exploited some other flaw in the PS3 and was not USB related.

 

[paskowitz]

Fanatec (official) posted this on GTPlanet.net

It is a false rumor that you just need to pay some money and then you get a license.

For whatever reason, Sony limits the amount of compatible devices. It is NOT in the hands of a wheel maker and there is little to no interest to make old wheels compatible unless people will ask for that and ask the right company.

Basically, we need to get enough people to care that this is a shitty situation and get the attention of SCE, at the least to make a statement and ideally to take some form of corrective action. Complaining to Logitech or Fanatec is not going to do us any good.

This only works if Logitech and Fanatec wheel owners put in a collective and coordinated effort. Otherwise, we are all SOL.

The one question I have though, is how hard would it be for Logitech to develop their own FFB protocol (like IIRC Thrustmaster has) and avoid this Immersion crap all together?

 

[serversurfer]

Are they implying Thrustmaster paid for some sort of exclusivity? I can't think of a practical reason Sony would limit the number of compatible devices. =/

 

[paskowitz]

Are they implying Thrustmaster paid for some sort of exclusivity? I can't think of a practical reason Sony would limit the number of compatible devices. =/

#businesscontracts

 

[Atlas157]

Goodbye PS4. There's no way I'm going to buy 6 more controllers for sports games and another steering wheel for your midrange PC "console". You have abandoned PS3 backwards compatibility and now this?

It's PC, 3DS and Wii U for me this generation. My PS3 will be used for sports and driving games for now. I don't care about graphics anyway since I go to the real track and use my PS3 strictly for practice.

 

[iceatcs]

To be clear, the PS3 was not hacked because of USB. The fault was not in the USB layer. Simply the JIG that could be made had to be insert trough USB. But there was no fault in the USB connection / software / security itself.

The JIG allowed to enter the Factory Service mode. This exploited some other flaw in the PS3 and was not USB related.

Exactly. There is nothing in old PS3 USB driver. Just open standard USB. That's why it is exploit.
Only way to prevent is software update only use for licensed drivers only. It is the reason that some USB accessors lost forever from PS3 update.

 

[SMOK3Y]

Here we go again.

Once again people. PC is the way to go. I've already explained in a billion other threads the advantages of playing racing games exclusively on the PC. Sure, if your mouth was watering in anticipation of Drive Club or GT7, making the decision not to play them will sting a little, but trust me you'll get over it. The amount of fantastic racing games available on PC, especially if you include emulation, is sickening.

I agree.. for racing games PC is the best way to go as I got triple screens DK2 on the way PS4 is my everything else gaming

 

[jts]

Digging the corporate apologism for DRM.

Probably gonna sell my G27, unfortunately :/

 

[nib95]

This is pretty infuriating tbh. Top steering wheels are expensive enough these days that this sort of shit should not occur. Talk about sacrificing a crap tonne of goodwill with console racing enthusiasts, and indirectly putting more clout in to PC gaming. Surely there must be another way around this?

 

[Vitacat]

Here we go again.

Once again people. PC is the way to go. I've already explained in a billion other threads the advantages of playing racing games exclusively on the PC. Sure, if your mouth was watering in anticipation of Drive Club or GT7, making the decision not to play them will sting a little, but trust me you'll get over it. The amount of fantastic racing games available on PC, especially if you include emulation, is sickening.

Non sequitur, and your admission that you use the NeoGAF forums to badger others with your opinion is telling.

Also, many of us own multiple systems including PC _and_ consoles, so we can have the best of all worlds. Single-system evangelists are (by definition) missing out, and they breed the worst form of fanboyism.