bananafactory
Banned
How do some of those pre-PS4 Thrustmaster wheels work, then?
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Logitech responds about PS4 wheel support - Sony demands advanced security
- Thread starter DieH@rd
- Start date
How do some of those pre-PS4 Thrustmaster wheels work, then?
I would assume the PS4 whitelists them due to a licensing agreement
Okay. Thanks for explaining. That is really crappy :/ Even if I'm not a racing game fan. So a license chip proves authenticity or something? Oh, or it means that the device is essentially Sony approved and has proof that only a PS4 could verify. (Sorry if Im wording this confusingly, just trying to understand the licensing part now)
Well thats pretty shitty. There must be something that can be done to have those devices work.
bananafactory
Banned
And they can't do this for Logitech wheels?
All these lame hardware decisions that Sony makes.. Why do they keep wasting time and energy on lame things like this. Instead of fixing the OS, DLNA and other features consumers want.. they add some authentication chip for peripherals ??. And then blame every one on how it is very expensive to make PS4.
They CAN, but there are SERIOUS REASONS why they probably won't. And the reasons are financial.
Here is the C/P of my post from the other thread about this situation:
It was last week when we all finally learned what it seems to be the most crucial information regarding PS4 architecture and USB-access. In the thread "Why did Sony go backwards on USB/hid compatibility?!" it was Androwsky who shared the final piece of the puzzle:
So, on the PS4, the USB/HID compatibility is 100% supported, but it has been moved from the first onto the second layer API. So, basically, every device has to be authenticated by the OS and granted the USB/HID access.
I am absolutely certain it was done because of the piracy (infamous PS3 USB dongles), but it also gave Sony something similar - thus not the same - as Microsoft is doing for the past 3 generation of Xbox consoles - and that is direct control over USB slave-devices.
In addition, here is the quote from the CTlance form the same thread:
Now, to continue.
Xbox consoles are the one that also have security chip. It is called "Infineon Chip" and it is part of the every single Xbox-compatible device, from the foist Xbox, Xbox360 and XboxOne. For instance, all Fanatec Xbox360 compatible wheels - PWTS, GT2, CSR, CSRE - have it soldered on their motherboards. Without "Infineon Chip" no hardware is recognized by the Xbox.
I will quote MrBasher from the GTPlanet for this - he is the guy who is basically producing majority of cross-compatibility wheel/pedals equipment and he is 100% reliable source:
mrbasher said:
Logitech have the experience and knowledge about the "chip" however, they were licensing the Driving FX X360 wheel for the short period of time, but they stopped the further developments in the early 2008. I still have many quotes from the official Logitech forum from that time, but they are not so relevant for this discussion. However, you can find more info about that here, in this 2009 topic.
And as I said before, I see why they could go that far to make that claim. But before that, few more things.
If the "chip" was real and behaving as "gate keeper", there is no way on Earth that T500RS could be supported - but it not just T500RS in the picture. As we learned a month ago from the officially published list of supported wheels for the PS4 for the pCARS, there are two more "older/legacy" wheels then upcoming new T300RS - which is the only wheel that could have "security chip", if the one ever existed:
T80 - which is not a force feedback wheels, it basically emulated controller, and
T100 - which is a proper force feedback wheel
But it is actually a T100 where it really gets interesting today.
Why?
Because T100 is different than all other Thrustmaster wheels. And what is different? Well, its own API/SDK. Which is not Thrustmaster's HEART, but the one that is licensed by the infamous Immersion Company, called TouchSense, and used by all Logitech wheels in the past decade.
So, if Thrustmaster's own PR people were wrong and they simply let SMS to publish such list without noticing their own mistake, we can pretty much conclude how PS4 will actually support a TouchSense powered FFB wheel - as long as it is Thrustmasters'.
Nifty, yes?
So, finally to make my comment.
There are only 2 possible explanations for such PR move by Logitech.
First possible explanation:
They do not want to become the party that will suffer the negativity once the information about non-compatibility of Logitech devices on the PS4 start to enter the mainstream channels. This is simply a spin in order to "wash hands", but in the same time to save the Immersion Corporation - which is still a Logitech's partner - from the same negativity. By doing this "chip talk" they want to divert everything at Sony, because they do not see the logic in paying additional royalties to both Immersion and Sony to have their old (legacy) wheels supported on the new platform (we learned from the legendary 2005-2007 case how Immersion grants its patents on the platform-base - PS4 is a new "platform/console", so no automatically transfer of licenses apply).
To quote paragraph 1.7. from the "settlement":
And most important, paragraphs that describes the validity of the settlement:
Key words - "does not include PSP, PS1, PS3 or PS2 or any other gaming platform".
PS4 was not part of the 2007 "settlement", which was never described by settlement by either Sony or Immersion, because it would violate the terms of the prior settlement between Microsoft and Immersion, but that is another story (although not less interesting).
Second possible explanation:
Logitech is indeed making its new wheel, despite all official news.
We heard about it here on NeoGaf but there was not new info. However, if that one is true, making such "security chip" comment has all the sense in the world. Why? Because you have to explain somehow to the legacy-users army why your new wheel works with the PS4, but old ones does not. And from the previous experience - as well as from the aforementioned fact how Logitech is still an Immersion Corporation technological partner - it can be presumed how new wheel would probably continue to use TouchSense as its API/SDK.
It all makes too much sense.
Of course, time will tell, but all above are the reasons why I personally think how "security chip" reasoning is 100% hoax.
Everything we learned in past months - most notably from pCARS PS4 wheel-list and information about moving USB/HID at the second layer in PS4 - points that even Sony was no so transparent about the complete issue because they said how support relies on developer...
From the official PS4 FAQ:
..while it is clearly in the hands of Sony to enable/disable particular device support on their console.
And it also gives full logical afterthought on comment from Thomas from Fanatec when I was discussing this very situation on GTPlanet few weeks ago, before I learned new details:
To conclude, I can today almost completely understand why Sony does not want to magically enable all legacy wheels, from many reasons.
First, they have new hardware partner - Thrustmaster - who probably paid reasonable sum of money to be the Official hardware partner of SCE.
Second, they have no intention to pay additional amount of money to Immersion company to enable compatibility for the legacy devices - because they would be forced to pay vast amount of money - simply because the 2007 settlement says the following for the very devices:
..and games..
And we learned from 2008 counter-suit of Microsoft against Immersion over Sony agreement (settlement) how Sony would need to pay "... another $10 million, plus a royalty of 25 cents for each game sold".
Now compute.
Major congratulations to all of those who read all this.
bananafactory
Banned
Thanks, I read all of that and some makes sense but most of it went over my head. I'm still not clear on whose court the ball is in. I just want someone to blame for my paperweight G27 =(
chrominance
Member
Even that was, I think, sort of a loophole. I'm not exactly surprised to see zero cross-console wheels out (or likely to be released in the forseeable future), but the lack of any LEGACY support for either of the wheels I've bought (Xbox 360 official and DFGT) has really soured me on buying any future ones.
If Sony wants to do a workaround I don't think a dongle is necessary. They control what the OS does when it comes across a non-chipped device as is.
I do not know what we would do without you Amar... probably descend into madness.
Bog
Junior Ace
Yeah, steering wheels are still a thing in real cars, too.
Big Takeover
Member
I generally don't trust nameless corporate twitter lackeys, but if all but TM users get locked out, I feel truly sorry for everyone else.
It's terrible for the genre on all the platforms, not just consoles. This doesn't help sell more games one bit. It's too bad I've yet to see a developer nut up, and say hey this kind of crap hurts our business.
It's terrible for the genre on all the platforms, not just consoles. This doesn't help sell more games one bit. It's too bad I've yet to see a developer nut up, and say hey this kind of crap hurts our business.
I honestly doubt we will ever get a positive response from Sony on this. It would take multiple peripherals communities like fight sticks, etc to get enough people to make enough noise. This is going to take more than a giant hissy fit on GTPlanet.
I assume the Project CARS guys and Kunos (Assetto Corsa) are less than happy. The big issue is Thrustmaster does not offer a mid to low range, quality product like the G27 and DFGT. If they did, this would not be such a big issue. The barrier to entry is too high for the average joe gamer and car enthusiast who bought a G27/DFGT.
I assume the Project CARS guys and Kunos (Assetto Corsa) are less than happy. The big issue is Thrustmaster does not offer a mid to low range, quality product like the G27 and DFGT. If they did, this would not be such a big issue. The barrier to entry is too high for the average joe gamer and car enthusiast who bought a G27/DFGT.
Great post!
Ive always been aware of the issues regards Immersion licensing and with Logitech withdrawing from gaming products it was always going to be a headscratcher how that obstacle would be tackled as theres no way Logitech or Sony (again) would want to foot the bill regards legacy products that dont make them money post-sale.
Its more how this situation has been left to run on which has left a bitter taste in my mouth which will no doubt colour any future purchases from Logitech and Sony. I really hope for Logitechs sake your second possible scenerio doesnt play out as previously Ive been a evangelist of their products. I dont see myself buying any racing sim on the PS4 that I deem needs a wheel to get the best out of it...
It just seems bizarre that talk of such a 'security/license chip' has only come to light - if that was the case it seems a simple and obvious answer when these questions were originally asked before the PS4 launched.
In the cold light of day, perhaps it was naive of me to think there was a real possibility - I really had a lot of faith in Logitech as they really have some brillant customer-orientated policies...
ps3ud0 8)
And with Morpheus coming, wheels are even more important - reading the oculus rift thread, a wheel makes Live for Speed insanely immersive
I can understand the older wheels not being supported as standard, but I would like first party games to support them directly - like how older Gt games did on PS2. There must be a technical way around his, and Sony needs to make this work - they must know what kind of userbase of logitech wheels they have out there from precious generations. Simply sayings 'buy a T500' isn't exactly an answer. Is there even an equivalent to something like the DFGT, at a reasonable price?
ThoughtsOfSpeaking
Banned
They CAN, but there are SERIOUS REASONS why they probably won't. And the reasons are financial.
Here is the C/P of my post from the other thread about this situation:
It was last week when we all finally learned what it seems to be the most crucial information regarding PS4 architecture and USB-access. In the thread "Why did Sony go backwards on USB/hid compatibility?!" it was Androwsky who shared the final piece of the puzzle:
So, on the PS4, the USB/HID compatibility is 100% supported, but it has been moved from the first onto the second layer API. So, basically, every device has to be authenticated by the OS and granted the USB/HID access.
I am absolutely certain it was done because of the piracy (infamous PS3 USB dongles), but it also gave Sony something similar - thus not the same - as Microsoft is doing for the past 3 generation of Xbox consoles - and that is direct control over USB slave-devices.
In addition, here is the quote from the CTlance form the same thread:
Now, to continue.
Xbox consoles are the one that also have security chip. It is called "Infineon Chip" and it is part of the every single Xbox-compatible device, from the foist Xbox, Xbox360 and XboxOne. For instance, all Fanatec Xbox360 compatible wheels - PWTS, GT2, CSR, CSRE - have it soldered on their motherboards. Without "Infineon Chip" no hardware is recognized by the Xbox.
I will quote MrBasher from the GTPlanet for this - he is the guy who is basically producing majority of cross-compatibility wheel/pedals equipment and he is 100% reliable source:
Logitech have the experience and knowledge about the "chip" however, they were licensing the Driving FX X360 wheel for the short period of time, but they stopped the further developments in the early 2008. I still have many quotes from the official Logitech forum from that time, but they are not so relevant for this discussion. However, you can find more info about that here, in this 2009 topic.
And as I said before, I see why they could go that far to make that claim. But before that, few more things.
If the "chip" was real and behaving as "gate keeper", there is no way on Earth that T500RS could be supported - but it not just T500RS in the picture. As we learned a month ago from the officially published list of supported wheels for the PS4 for the pCARS, there are two more "older/legacy" wheels then upcoming new T300RS - which is the only wheel that could have "security chip", if the one ever existed:
T80 - which is not a force feedback wheels, it basically emulated controller, and
T100 - which is a proper force feedback wheel
But it is actually a T100 where it really gets interesting today.
Why?
Because T100 is different than all other Thrustmaster wheels. And what is different? Well, its own API/SDK. Which is not Thrustmaster's HEART, but the one that is licensed by the infamous Immersion Company, called TouchSense, and used by all Logitech wheels in the past decade.
So, if Thrustmaster's own PR people were wrong and they simply let SMS to publish such list without noticing their own mistake, we can pretty much conclude how PS4 will actually support a TouchSense powered FFB wheel - as long as it is Thrustmasters'.
Nifty, yes?
So, finally to make my comment.
There are only 2 possible explanations for such PR move by Logitech.
First possible explanation:
They do not want to become the party that will suffer the negativity once the information about non-compatibility of Logitech devices on the PS4 start to enter the mainstream channels. This is simply a spin in order to "wash hands", but in the same time to save the Immersion Corporation - which is still a Logitech's partner - from the same negativity. By doing this "chip talk" they want to divert everything at Sony, because they do not see the logic in paying additional royalties to both Immersion and Sony to have their old (legacy) wheels supported on the new platform (we learned from the legendary 2005-2007 case how Immersion grants its patents on the platform-base - PS4 is a new "platform/console", so no automatically transfer of licenses apply).
To quote paragraph 1.7. from the "settlement":
And most important, paragraphs that describes the validity of the settlement:
Key words - "does not include PSP, PS1, PS3 or PS2 or any other gaming platform".
PS4 was not part of the 2007 "settlement", which was never described by settlement by either Sony or Immersion, because it would violate the terms of the prior settlement between Microsoft and Immersion, but that is another story (although not less interesting).
Second possible explanation:
Logitech is indeed making its new wheel, despite all official news.
We heard about it here on NeoGaf but there was not new info. However, if that one is true, making such "security chip" comment has all the sense in the world. Why? Because you have to explain somehow to the legacy-users army why your new wheel works with the PS4, but old ones does not. And from the previous experience - as well as from the aforementioned fact how Logitech is still an Immersion Corporation technological partner - it can be presumed how new wheel would probably continue to use TouchSense as its API/SDK.
It all makes too much sense.
Of course, time will tell, but all above are the reasons why I personally think how "security chip" reasoning is 100% hoax.
Everything we learned in past months - most notably from pCARS PS4 wheel-list and information about moving USB/HID at the second layer in PS4 - points that even Sony was no so transparent about the complete issue because they said how support relies on developer...
From the official PS4 FAQ:
..while it is clearly in the hands of Sony to enable/disable particular device support on their console.
And it also gives full logical afterthought on comment from Thomas from Fanatec when I was discussing this very situation on GTPlanet few weeks ago, before I learned new details:
To conclude, I can today almost completely understand why Sony does not want to magically enable all legacy wheels, from many reasons.
First, they have new hardware partner - Thrustmaster - who probably paid reasonable sum of money to be the Official hardware partner of SCE.
Second, they have no intention to pay additional amount of money to Immersion company to enable compatibility for the legacy devices - because they would be forced to pay vast amount of money - simply because the 2007 settlement says the following for the very devices:
..and games..
And we learned from 2008 counter-suit of Microsoft against Immersion over Sony agreement (settlement) how Sony would need to pay "... another $10 million, plus a royalty of 25 cents for each game sold".
Now compute.
Major congratulations to all of those who read all this.
If this is all true, why don't legacy hori and Madcatz fightsticks work?
Both are now official sony partners. Why haven't their sticks been added to the white list?
This doesn't make sense because the T500 is way older than the PS4 and no way has any chips, but is still supported by pS4 games (but sounds like you can't navigate in game, just use it to drive). So this sounds like a reason that he older logitech wheels couldn't be used as 'standard' controllers, but is no reason at all why they couldn't still be used like the T500 is
Edit:Amar, great post. Basically saying that Sony/Evo/Polyphony could easily support logitech wheels if they wanted to?
I don't understand any partner deals with thrustmaster. You really need to consider your installed base of peripherals and support a progressive transition. Thrustmaster seem to be working hard on quality kit, including a modular system to allow gamers to set gigs up just how they like it. Great. But many of us will not be in a position to invest immediately.
If Sony would commit to supporting eg G25/G27/DFGT In at least Driveclub and GT games, I think that would be a step forward.
Edit:Amar, great post. Basically saying that Sony/Evo/Polyphony could easily support logitech wheels if they wanted to?
I don't understand any partner deals with thrustmaster. You really need to consider your installed base of peripherals and support a progressive transition. Thrustmaster seem to be working hard on quality kit, including a modular system to allow gamers to set gigs up just how they like it. Great. But many of us will not be in a position to invest immediately.
If Sony would commit to supporting eg G25/G27/DFGT In at least Driveclub and GT games, I think that would be a step forward.
The differentiating factor is FFB API, but I don't really have any idea about the details. It's certainly one of the biggest issue with writing your own drivers for each controller as I believe it's both illegal and pretty hard to do. It's possible to support HID devices on the PS4 without any chip whatsoever, but there a lot of differences and it's possible that PS4 firmware might be able to circumvent that in special cases, but that's just my conjecture.
If driveclub or PCars come out and have equivalent FFB/inout support for T500 as they do for the 'official' T300, then any arguments about security chips are bollocks and IMO puts the ball squarely at the game developers (which for driveclub and GT at effectively means Sony)
Although...if that was the case, why doesn't PCars list logitech wheel support?
The difference is that Thrustmaster actually owns the API it uses (they developed it themselves) so it can technically be implemented in the PS4 firmware without any licensing legal issues, but the Touchsense is completely different matter and it might not even be possible to include within the PS4 for complete support without hardware modifications in the external hardware.
petran79
Banned
Wasnt the main issue the inclusion of OtherOS first?
hackers found a way to have direct access to the GPU
it predates the USB dongle
br0ken_shad0w
Member
I'd be pissed too if my peripherals that cost hundreds of dollars no longer works for some asinine reason and the only other option is "spend several more hundreds of dollars".
True, but if a "hacking" device that poses as a logitech wheel indeed is a threat somehow (in a way that is unbeknown to me), a dongle might be needed?
Yet, what you say seems logical. They could also, without a dongle of any sort, allow PS4 to interpret things in a certain way if a certain device identifies itself with a certain name (e.g. drivers in OS).
This of course wouldn't really matter if the current situation is not a security issue but a licensing one (both by Sony's willingness to control peripherals and and any possible royalties Logitech might have to pay if their licensed tech is licensed per platform, which then, they wouldn't want to).
Souldestroyer Reborn
Banned
GG Sony, what a shit show.
Once again paying consumers suffer because of the acts of a minority so Sony decides to treat us all as villains.
It's bullshit.
Once again paying consumers suffer because of the acts of a minority so Sony decides to treat us all as villains.
It's bullshit.
Immersion Company licences and patents are not bullshits. There are DOZENS of millions of dollars involved.
It is not simply an act of compatibility, it isa licensing nightmare in the first place.
Logitech does not want to pay for licenses because they are out of business and they are not SCE official partner anymore. Why would Sony pay to Immersion AGAIN to make legacy hardware supported?
I can understand both positions.
If Sony would somehow "invisibly" enable legacy wheels, you would have Immersion Corporation lawyers jumping out of the bushes in no time.
There is simply no win-win situation in this.
Somebody has to pay to Immersion Corporation. The settlement is clear, concise and very detailed in that. Who will pay?
Yes, and the simple *solution* to that issue would be to have the diagnostics settings accessed by a different means than through a USB dongle. Rather than defeat the entire point of USB for your own ends.
People just wanted to have use of the GPU in Linux to make OtherOS more usable, Sony had a fit and removed OtherOS, then people started cracking the system open.
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Fanatec's wheels came so late in the game that it was basically pointless anyway. I already had a PS3 force feedback wheel. (that I'd bought for PS2... imagine that)
Bananajama
Banned
Thanks amar
Can understand both positions here.
Best sell my G27 while it's not in the public too much!
Can understand both positions here.
Best sell my G27 while it's not in the public too much!
In your opinon, is the following a fair breakdown? Or have I missed something?
- PS3 was hacked because of usb security holes, so PS4 had to implement a different schemata.
- PS4 usb stack is 'pushed out' a layer, requiring custom integration work into the OS for each peripheral and for each game if it doesn't have a security chip. There also may be licensing costs associated with this. This costs money which means either the peripheral manufacturer, the game developer, or Sony would have to pay. In the case of a G27, for example, nobody wants to pay for this hence no support.
- The other option for full PS4 compatibility without special coding on a game-by-game, peripheral-by-peripheral basis, is to have a special security chip installed in the device. These chips will only be on specially labeled peripherals sold after PS4 launch.
- The upshot is only officially licensed wheels made after a certain date are 100% compatible, further there is no guaranteed these wheels will be useable on next playstation and they cannot be used on X1.
So, to play Driveclub with a wheel that I will be able to use on GT7, I will need to buy an officially licensed product that may or may not work on PS5, and is guaranteed not to work on X1 or neXtbox.
Buying a wheel was supposed to be fun, and a bit of an investment that I expected to be able to use over the next 10 years across multiple platforms. I kinda wanted to go high end, $500 or so, but there is no way in hell I'm buying a $500 accessory that has no future beyond 1 game. Even the T80 is $200.
Enthusiasm draining...
protomouse
Member
Welp, that's some crap. I'll be getting my racing sim fix on PC anyway, but it sucks for those who bought a PS4 for this. I'm not letting go of my DFGT, that's for sure.
GameAddict411
Member
its not surprising at all, i remember that they used USB exploit to hack the PS3.
MoGamesXNA
Unconfirmed Member
.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
Nextgen is shit for people who spent money on USB peripherals. First fighting games, now wheels.
Pretty much, with few additions:
1) They probably moved USB/HID support at the second layer, because of the security, yes
2) I had no idea about the chip existence before this thread, but it is now clear to all of us how chip exists. However, "chip" is not the main culprit, because T500RS wheel works on PS4 apparently. And we can be 100% sure how T500RS does not have any PS4 chip inside, because the wheel was constructed in late 2009 and launched in 2009. So, we can presume how both "chip" and OS (console API) can recognize any device and authenticate it simply by its own slave-ID - as all consoles are capable of since PS2 days.
If some device is recognized - and every wheel is, just take a look at even 3rd party low-budget games, such as Test Drive: Ferrari Racing Legends, which recognizes and makes distinction even between G25 and G27 for instance - it can be cleared" for use. But the actual "USE" is the problem.
2A) When you read at the 2007 Immersion Corporation/Sony settlement (agreement) I have quoted above in my post, it is 100% clear how the terms does not apply to any other "console" besides the ones outlined by the terms: PSP, PS12, PS2 and PS3. There is no PS4 in the settlement.
Allowing the usage - white-listing - of the Logitech wheels that are using TouchSense patents, would absolutely violate the terms of the 2007 settlement and invoke the process of the new suit which would ask for Sony to pay additional damages. It would also allow the Microsoft to actually restart its own 2008 counter-suit against Immersion over Sony agreement.
From everything we learned so far it is clear how Sony CAN make Logitech wheels - as well as all other legacy peripherals - compatible with the PS4, but the Immersion Company is standing on the way for that.
Someone has to pay the usage of that patents - by the legacy hardware - to the Immersion. And the 2007 agreement teaches us how Immersion demands the licenses to be payed by the platform holder (Sony in the is case), every first-party of third-party manufacturer (Logitech in this case), as well as parentage from the very game sold that uses devices covered y the platform (again Sony, since Sony is the platform-holder and publisher).
It is basically a licensing nightmare for all parties involved.
Logitech is out of the wheel business, they have no interest to pay for the licenses for the products of which most of them are 10 years old. Sony have no ground to invest in that, since it is simply too crazy expensive without any long-term gain. And 2007 agreement outlines how those parties are the only one who should pay.
3 and 4) All PS3 compatible devices will be PS4 compatible. I see how Thrustmaster T300RS will be 100% PS4 compatible (T500RS will be mostly compatible, since it will not have the PS or Share functionality on the wheel).
We can't predict will the PS4-generation devices be PS5-compatible.
But all we learned recently looks to me as trying to solve the complexions of the past and building a new grounds for the future. We will see what future will bring, but at this point the past is the main culprit, as well as the matters of intellectual property and patents.
Omnii-chan
Member
So my driving force GT is useless for next gen? Awesome.
BradleyLove
Member
Me?
In that I'd be happy to pay Immersion a £10 "license" to enable use of my G27 on PS4.
MoGamesXNA
Unconfirmed Member
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Fox Mulder
Member
Sony and MS want you to buy new stuff.
this is really shitty considering the price of these peripherals, but has been a part of new hardware for generations for lots of stuff.