They cannot announce that, as long as they're still in business with Immersion.Not necessarily, it they just made a statement that the wheels will be supported once there is no more need to pay for the license I'm pretty much satisfied.
Not necessarily, it they just made a statement that the wheels will be supported once there is no more need to pay for the license I'm pretty much satisfied.^ Not without violating Immersion's licenses, as long as both are unwilling to pay.
Please somebody update the OP with all the information amar212 has collected so that everybody can understand that to solve this situation, big money must flow from somebody's pockets into Immersion's ones, and that this required PS4 security chip is mostly PR bullshit / damage control.
A public statement of, "We just don't wanna pay Immersion," could get them in to trouble though, especially as a current Immersion licensee.Not necessarily, it they just made a statement that the wheels will be supported once there is no more need to pay for the license I'm pretty much satisfied.
A public statement of, "We just don't wanna pay Immersion," could get them in to trouble though, especially as a current Immersion licensee.
What would you want from Sony, exactly? A statement saying it's all Logitech's responsibility? That Logitech are lying/confused about this security chip? It's not really Sony's issue, and I don't see what they could really add on the subject that wouldn't make it look like they were just throwing Logitech under the bus.Is there no public face of Sony you could approach to ask?
They pulled an Apple ("We changed everything").What did MS have to say on the subject?
Wonder if someone could change the USB ID of the Logitech G series so it matches that particular Thrustmaster (T10?) - Im sure its not that easy as the layout setup could be different but its a worthwhile thoughtI suspect/hope Logitech will quickly reenter the console business once they're free from the restrictions of Immersion's patents.
Literally the only work that needs to be done to make the wheels work on PS4 is to update the drivers, and apparently they already did that, because one of the "compatible" Thrustmaster actually uses the Logitech drivers.
So they have the compatible hardware, they seem to have the compatible software. Payment to Immersion appears to be the only missing part of the equation, but in about 15 months, that will no longer be required. But at the same time, Logitech can't publicly say, "Yeah, it's all ready to go; we're just waiting until we can dodge the patents."
The concern I have is that what about when the PS5 is out, having the newer G29 wont guarantee compatibility - Im just not putting myself in a situation where Im spending £200+ on wheels every console generationId even be down for a G29 or whatever wheel from Logitech only because you know it would be quality and reasonable prices. I'm sure a lot of other people wouldn't mind upgrading either. My g25 is a little old but still awesome.
heh Yeah, that sounds like bullshit. I dunno why Kinect would be related at all, and yeah, they "improved" the protocol. Right. They used proprietary connections last generation, so there was really no reason to not expect them to do the same this time around. XB1 stuff never worked with the XB2, did it? Anyone hoping XB2 gear would work with XB3 was fooling themselves, IMO.They said a change in protocol and the kinect sensor made compatibility impossible. Nobody really bought the answers but it gave me at least the chance to either support the platform or not. Before then we were all in the dark.
Wonder if someone could change the USB ID of the Logitech G series so it matches that particular Thrustmaster (T10?) - Im sure its not that easy as the layout setup could be different but its a worthwhile thought
The concern I have is that what about when the PS5 is out, having the newer G29 wont guarantee compatibility - Im just not putting myself in a situation where Im spending £200+ on wheels every console generation
ps3ud0 8)
Sony are in no position to "rule out" Logitech. Only Logitech can do that, and they appear to have done so.Yeah but all I wanted was a yes or no, this grey area of listing compatible devices but not ruling out Logitech leaves owners in limbo.
As a former Fanatec owner if I'd not sold there and then I'd be left with a wheel that would lost 2/3 of reasons I or most others would want it.
https://twitter.com/LogitechG/statuses/496042493155094528
All in all, while some devices [such as generic USB and bluetooth keyboards and mices] can be used without limitation on PS4, controllers that [supposedly] have high pooling rate are restricted. Sony demands advanced security measures for them. Or at least it demands this chip for "full functionality".
Sony. Pls. Don't do this. There is metric shitton of old Logitech wheels in the wild, many of htem are really great [GT Pro, DFGT, G25, G27], and would be mistake not to support them. At least make it right before GT7 is out.
Don't worry, GT7 won't release until 2017, and the Immersion patent will be over then, so you'll be able to play it with your G27!4theplayers my arse
at least sony will be punished with disastrous sales for gran turismo putting it further in the ground - no logitech support no sale
PS3 was hacked by using a buffer overflow on the USB port. USB has recently been proven to be an insecure standard to which there's no easy fix.
That is why Sony are relying on low polling rates and separate security chips to protect their machine.
We've been through this, haven't we? It's not their machine any more once I purchase it, it's mine. If I want to hack it, that's my prerogative.PS3 was hacked by using a buffer overflow on the USB port. USB has recently been proven to be an insecure standard to which there's no easy fix.
That is why Sony are relying on low polling rates and separate security chips to protect their machine.
Supposedly, GT7 will come quicker than GT5 did, and the patents will actually run out in time for Christmas 2015.Don't worry, GT7 won't release until 2017, and the Immersion patent will be over then, so you'll be able to play it with your G27!
Who knows, GT may even include a course maker then! ^^
Don't worry, GT7 won't release until 2017, and the Immersion patent will be over then, so you'll be able to play it with your G27!
Who knows, GT may even include a course maker then! ^^
We've been through this, haven't we? It's not their machine any more once I purchase it, it's mine. If I want to hack it, that's my prerogative.
It's still fucked, IMO. I've got a new flight stick that's even marketed as being compatible with PS3, but no one knows if it works on PS4. Probably not, at this point.
The Logitech drivers have already been written, and are in use on one of the chipless, PS4-compatible Thrustmaster wheels.You could wait until the PS4 patent runs out and write your own drivers.
Supposedly, GT7 will come quicker than GT5 did, and the patents will actually run out in time for Christmas 2015.
Has anyone tried using a G27 in War Thunder on the PS4? It's set up to allow all sorts of generic USB input devices, I'd be curious as to what doesn't work.
Also, the statement from Logitech seems to directly contradict what the Skullgirls devs said.
course maker is coming in december with gt6 spec II ps3 / ps4, traces of it were in update 1.10/11
so no need to downgrade by choosing the ps4 option to sample the delights of course maker
I was only being an arsehole there but which Thrustmaster wheel uses Logitech drivers? I must have missed something..
Can they? Everything I'm seeing says 20 years from the priority date. AFAIK, only trademarks can be "kept alive."First, patents can be renewed.
Immersion sued Sony for violation of U.S. Patent 6,424,333 and U.S. Patent 6,275,213, which were both extensions of U.S. Patent 6,088,017. '017 itself was an extension of an earlier patent, dating back to Nov 30, 1995. As such, all of the patents in question carry the original patent's priority date of Nov 30, 1995, and will expire Nov 30, 2015.Second, it is highly unlikely that any of wheels included in this particular issue use only one "patent".
Err, Sony need to actively block other companies from reaching independent agreements with Immersion and releasing FFB-enabled controllers for Sony platforms? Where are you getting that? =/If Sony would ever allow for TouchSense devices to be used on thier console(s) outside of list nominated in settlement, they would breach the agreement and open themselves for another trial - and Immersion would win it in a day.
Can you cite the specific passages that say this stuff? This isn't how I've read any of the stuff you've linked.Everyone should really take their time and read the actual agreement - it is linked in my initial post in this thread - and try to understand the complexitybof the case.
My understanding is that Sony had an agreement in place to use Immersion technology for "PlayStation." When "PlayStation 2" came out, Sony worked from the assumption that, as a PlayStation, it was covered by the original agreement. Immersion argued, successfully, that "PlayStation" only referred specifically to the PS1, and not any other platforms that may carry the same brand name. Armed with that ruling, they were able to collect retroactive damages for the PS2, and force Sony to negotiate new separate, agreements for the PS3 and other PlayStation platforms.Back in the PS1, PS2, Xbox and Xbox360 days both Sony and Microsoft had allowed that various devices that are using haptic patents - owned by Immersion - work on their platforms. Unfortunatelly for both, all their "shock/rumble" controllers and various other peripherals (wheels, sticks..) were also using them, so claims were immense, as well as the final settlement.
Yes, agreed.Both Sony and Microsoft are now paying the Immersion Corp. for using their haptic solutions for their controllers, but it is up to third-party manufacturers to license usage of their products as well.
That's where you lose me. If Logitech work out a deal with Immersion, why is it Sony's responsibility to lock out Logitech controllers? =/If Sony or Microsoft would again allow for third-party peripherals that uses both TouchSense or other haptics patenets owned by Immersion on their platforms, they would voilate the settlements.
Can they? Everything I'm seeing says 20 years from the priority date. AFAIK, only trademarks can be "kept alive."
Immersion sued Sony for violation of U.S. Patent 6,424,333 and U.S. Patent 6,275,213, which were both extensions of U.S. Patent 6,088,017. '017 itself was an extension of an earlier patent, dating back to Nov 30, 1995. As such, all of the patents in question carry the original patent's priority date of Nov 30, 1995, and will expire Nov 30, 2015.
Do you have additional/conflicting information?
Err, Sony need to actively block other companies from reaching independent agreements with Immersion and releasing FFB-enabled controllers for Sony platforms? Where are you getting that? =/
Can you cite the specific passages that say this stuff? This isn't how I've read any of the stuff you've linked.
The foregoing license does not extend to Non-PlayStation Console Haptic Game Devices (i.e., Haptic Game Devices that are designed, marketed, or distributed to operate on or in conjunction with any Console or device other than the PlayStation Consoles) operating in conjunction with any PlayStation Games or First Party Haptic Game Devices. The foregoing license also does not extend to Haptic Game Devices operating in conjunction with Games, First Party Haptic Game Devices or Third Party Haptic Game Devices that are designed, marketed, or distributed to operate on or in conjunction with any Console or device other than the PlayStation Consoles.
My understanding is that Sony had an agreement in place to use Immersion technology for "PlayStation." When "PlayStation 2" came out, Sony worked from the assumption that, as a PlayStation, it was covered by the original agreement. Immersion argued, successfully, that "PlayStation" only referred specifically to the PS1, and not any other platforms that may carry the same brand name. Armed with that ruling, they were able to collect retroactive damages for the PS2, and force Sony to negotiate new separate, agreements for the PS3 and other PlayStation platforms. Is that not how it went down? What am I missing?
Yes, agreed.
That's where you lose me. If Logitech work out a deal with Immersion, why is it Sony's responsibility to lock out Logitech controllers?
Thanks, this definitely fits with what the Skullgirls devs were saying. I hope more people see your post, since it clears up a lot of avenues of speculation.I've just tried this using a Logitech Driving Force Pro -
the setup wizard recognises all inputs apart from the dpad on the left side of the wheel.
I was able to fly around quite happily using the wheel to control ailerons, the pedals as rudders and the gear shifter as a throttle.
I also tried it with a PS3 madcatz TE arcade stick, and the joystick and buttons are all recognised. At first glance it would seem that if War Thunder can work with arcade sticks then something like Injustice should be able to do it too.
(both also worked for longer than the 8-minute time-out mentioned previously in the thread)
I'm going to look out my old Rock Band instruments and see if the setup wizard can detect them also
Yeah, from what I can tell, we should be free of this nonsense next year.OK, I checked that and I agree - great. I was under the impression how patents can be extended in US, however it seems it is not the case.
Can you cite that part for me? The only thing I saw regarding the definition of "PlayStation" was that Immersion won the original decision because the term "PlayStation" did not cover devices such as the PS2, PSP, or PS3.The "license" from the agreement does not "extend" to "..any Console or device other than the PlayStation Consoles" - and the settlement text clearly notes how "PlayStation Consoles" are PS1/PSP/PS2/PS3 - not PS4.
Right, they're in no position to allow it. It sounded like you were then concluding that beyond having no permission to allow it, they were somehow obligated to prevent it. I doubt that's the case.Maybe I can't read leal text, but Sony is at no position to allow any device to work outside the "logic" imposed in the settlement.
Same. /high-fiveTo make this clear, I want all of us to be right and to have our wheels working on PS4. I am simply trying to find logic in this mess, same as many of us.
Thanks, this definitely fits with what the Skullgirls devs were saying. I hope more people see your post, since it clears up a lot of avenues of speculation.
I'm going to go out on a limb and assume force-feedback wasn't working...
Same. /high-five
I think that's only if the controller tries to pretend that is an official Sony peripheral, like making the Device ID match the DS4.No force-feedback unfortunately (although there is power going to the wheel, as it returns to neutral when you let it go)
I'm more confused about the assertion that USB devices will only work for 8 minutes without a security chip, I tested both the steering wheel and arcade stick for about 30 minutes each and they were still working.
4theplayers my arse
at least sony will be punished with disastrous sales for gran turismo putting it further in the ground - no logitech support no sale
Yes, I t went like that IIRC, same as in Microsoft case. Microsoft made their settlement prior to Xbox360 release, so Xbox360 was launched with the working rumble controllers. Sony settled their case after the PS3 release, so that was the true reason why there was no "rumble" in Sixaxis and why any FFB wheels didn't work when the console launched (even GT:HD was launched without FFB enabled for Japan demo version, force feedback support came in March 2007, once PAL demo was released).
Also, F1 Championship Edition got FFB support, because it didn't worked before Match 2007 update. The settlement also allowed Sony to make DualShock 3 and launch it with the PS3 FW update.
Well, this bodes ill for 3rd party controllers in general. And I was really looking forward to a decent a-symmetrical one showing up.
Actually, if the patent is the true sticking point here, it could actually open the floodgates for 3rd-party controllers from game pads to wheels and flight sticks simply because they won't need to pay Immersion for permission to make them after it expires.Well, this bodes ill for 3rd party controllers in general. And I was really looking forward to a decent a-symmetrical one showing up.
Actually, if the patent is the true sticking point here, it could actually open the floodgates for 3rd-party controllers from game pads to wheels and flight sticks simply because they won't need to pay Immersion for permission to make them after it expires.
Amar and I just went over that. AFAICT, Immersion's claims all stem from a single patent expiring next year, and there's no way to renew it.The problem is that there are many patents and that Immersion could file for reapplications for some of them (although that has to get approved).
???course maker is coming in december with gt6 spec II ps3 / ps4, traces of it were in update 1.10/11
so no need to downgrade by choosing the ps4 option to sample the delights of course maker