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[paskowitz]

Amar and I just went over that. AFAICT, Immersion's claims all stem from a single patent expiring next year, and there's no way to renew it.

Do you have additional information that contradicts this?

I must have missed that. I have heard of companies modifying the contents of a patent slightly and then reapply (when previously not possible). I am not a patent expert, just going off rumblings from my entrepreneurial law classes.

But if it is expiring next year, then it really all rests on SCE. If they are stiff arming Fanatec, chances are they will do the same to Logitech. I would put hopes with Kaz and PD, but Thrustmaster is the official GT wheel so that is that.

 

[serversurfer]

I must have missed that. I have heard of companies modifying the contents of a patent slightly and then reapply (when previously not possible). I am not a patent expert, just going off rumblings from my entrepreneurial law classes.

You can file extensions to a patent, and in fact, the patents they sued Sony over were extensions of another, older patent. But the extensions all use the priority date of the parent patent, specifically to prevent stringing patents along with extension after extension.

However, before the middle of '95, it didn't work this way, and I think you could cheat the system with extensions and late publications, but the US changed their laws in '95 to bring them in to compliance with WTO guidelines.

But if it is expiring next year, then it really all rests on SCE. If they are stiff arming Fanatec, chances are they will do the same to Logitech. I would put hopes with Kaz and PD, but Thrustmaster is the official GT wheel so that is that.

Yeah, the Fanatec statement is kinda weird. They seem to be implying some kind of exclusivity deal with Thrustmaster, but neither Sony nor Thrustmaster have mentioned such a deal.

Then again, you have Logitech blaming some mystery chip, also not mentioned by Sony and Thrustmaster, so yeah.

 

[paskowitz]

You can file extensions to a patent, and in fact, the patents they sued Sony over were extensions of another, older patent. But the extensions all use the priority date of the parent patent, specifically to prevent stringing patents along with extension after extension.

However, before the middle of '95, it didn't work this way, and I think you could cheat the system with extensions and late publications, but the US changed their laws in '95 to bring them in to compliance with WTO guidelines.


Yeah, the Fanatec statement is kinda weird. They seem to be implying some kind of exclusivity deal with Thrustmaster, but neither Sony nor Thrustmaster have mentioned such a deal.

Then again, you have Logitech blaming some mystery chip, also not mentioned by Sony and Thrustmaster, so yeah.

That sounds about right.

The security chip is really confusing. Fanatec so it isn't a problem, Logitech says it is. As if this whole thing wasn't confusing enough already.

 

[serversurfer]

I suspect both companies decided to just make some shit up rather than appear too cheap to pay the licensing fees, and didn't confer on who/what they were going to blame. lol

 

[darkwing]

can the license be extended? Either way it is 15 months before we know lol

 

[paskowitz]

I suspect both companies decided to just make some shit up rather than appear too cheap to pay the licensing fees, and didn't confer on who/what they were going to blame. lol

That would be hilarious.

Not sure if this made the rounds before...

Just read this from the Guilemont Corp (Thrustmaster controlling company) financial reports:

Prospects for 2014
Now a world leader in the racing wheel market thanks to its exclusive positioning with regard to the new game consoles, the Group is expanding its product lines in order to take full advantage of this year’s rollout of the Xbox® One console in 26 new countries, as well as the rapid growth in PlayStation®4 console sales, and aims to take the lead in mobile DJing products for tablets. Thanks to the worldwide potential of its new releases, the Group anticipates sales growth for fiscal 2014.

http://www.guillemot.com/dmdocuments/ResultatsAnnuels2013,VersionLongue_27mars2014_EN.pdf

And again here:

For Sony consoles, the T80 and T80 DriveClub™ models – the first wheels for the PlayStation®4 console, also compatible with PlayStation®3 – have taken full advantage of both the launch of the PS4 console and of the game Gran Turismo® 6 on PS3. Thrustmaster’s exclusive positioning on the new consoles has allowed it to sell these new products worldwide, and further expand its distribution network.

http://www.guillemot.com/dmdocuments/CAAnnuel2013GUILLEMOT30janv2014EN.pdf

In general is sounds like they are banking on these wheels being a success. In fact, it is pretty much all Thrustmaster does. Without this exclusive agreement they would be dead in the water. Logitech has a relatively large, loyal/pleased, customer base and Fanatec arguably produces a higher quality product. Put those two together in the console market and TM would not be able to move volume at an ideal rate. I assume Logitech feels similarly. While Fanatec, produces in smaller batches.

They probably signed the deal in 2009 (T500RS launched December 2010) (maybe went into effect at that date). Lets hope the contract is not longer than 5 years.

 

[serversurfer]

Hmm. Their use of "exclusive positioning" could mean they have an actual exclusivity deal, or it could simply mean they're in the fortunate position of being unburdened by Immersion's patent, giving them two years of de facto exclusive access to the Gen8 market.

 

[Fried Food]

I hope polyphony is able to work some magic, I want to play GT7 but I'm not buying another wheel.

 

[paskowitz]

I hope polyphony is able to work some magic, I want to play GT7 but I'm not buying another wheel.

This is it right here. If GT7 comes out, Logitech and Fanatec wheel owners do not convert to Thrustmaster (assuming Logi and Fan wheels still do not work with the PS4) and there are less wheel users playing GT7, I would think that is a situation PD would like to avoid. It would change the dynamic of the game, especially online.

I am sure the majority of GT players are pad users, but I would have to assume that in GT5 and GT6 at least ~20% used a wheel (given TM+Logi+Fan). If that number falls to say 10% for GT7, then PD is putting all this effort into a game that will only be fully enjoyed by a shrinking number of people.

This will also hurt the game's growth in the streaming space (GT7 is going to be a big deal on Twitch and LIvestream given it volume). Not to mention GT Academy and this whole FIA Championship thing.

On a personal level, that strikes me as something Kazunori would not be happy with.

 

[Dash Kappei]

Thanks for the great findings guys, I'm especially grateful to the new guy in town, serversurfer, whom has provided valuable insight and a different (and much needed) voice/pow; although I appreciate Amar's posts as much as the next guy, sometimes (like the best of us!) he too can be way off but still most of us will take his word as final because of his prominence in the GT community and on the basis of previous info he shared, instead of maybe challenge him and try to go deeper till the matter's true source (while of curse taking advantage of the great insight he has to offer).

Still, we gotta keep the discussion flowing, it's the only effective way to avoid going unnoticed or being swept under the rug with other not-vocal enough minorities of the gaming community.

So yeah, thanks Amar, Pasko, SSurfer and everyone else in and outside of GAF.

 

[serversurfer]

Yeah, Amar did all of the legwork here. I just had a slightly different take on the information he found, and did a little research in to how patents work in general.

So to sum up, the main sticking point seems to be the Immersion patent, which expires next year. The companies affected by the Immersion patent — Logitech and Fanatec — have offered alternate explanations, but those explanations don't seem to hold much water, especially when taken together. We'll see what happens next Christmas when no one is obligated to pay Immersion.

 

[paskowitz]

Thanks for the great findings guys, I'm especially grateful to the new guy in town, serversurfer, whom has provided valuable insight and a different (and much needed) voice/pow; although I appreciate Amar's posts as much as the next guy, sometimes (like the best of us!) he too can be way off but still most of us will take his word as final because of his prominence in the GT community and on the basis of previous info he shared, instead of maybe challenge him and try to go deeper till the matter's true source (while of curse taking advantage of the great insight he has to offer).

Still, we gotta keep the discussion flowing, it's the only effective way to avoid going unnoticed or being swept under the rug with other not-vocal enough minorities of the gaming community.

So yeah, thanks Amar, Pasko, SSurfer and everyone else in and outside of GAF.

Yeah I know nothing and do not deserve any thanks. Just an active participant in this mess.

Yeah, Amar did all of the legwork here. I just had a slightly different take on the information he found, and did a little research in to how patents work in general.

So to sum up, the main sticking point seems to be the Immersion patent, which expires next year. The companies affected by the Immersion patent — Logitech and Fanatec — have offered alternate explanations, but those explanations don't seem to hold much water, especially when taken together. We'll see what happens next Christmas when no one is obligated to pay Immersion.

GT7 won't be out until at least next Christmas (2015), so we won't be losing out too badly.

 

[JLeack]

They didn't demand this 2011.

 

[DirtyLarry]

Okay, so in a totally impulse buy, I am really close to picking up the Thrustmaster T80 so I have a wheel for Driveclub. Here is the deal. I am not going to pick up a $400 or above wheel. As much as I absolutely would love to, I just cannot do it from a responsibility standpoint.
So, the T80 is $99 on Amazon right now. The Thrustmaster tech support site no doubt lists it as compatible with DC (project Cars as well), so I figure for $99, something is better than nothing.
I also fear the closer we get to the games release, the more people will jack up the cost. I already see the same wheel on Amazon going for $165. New.

So has anyone else already done the same? Plan to? I know it is not a high quality wheel, but as I said I just cannot responsibly pick one of those up (I will be 40 years old this December with family stuff that comes first), so what do people think? Just pick it up now and be done with it? Or will there possibly be another model released prior to the game that is in the $99 price range?

 

[paskowitz]

Okay, so in a totally impulse buy, I am really close to picking up the Thrustmaster T80 so I have a wheel for Driveclub. Here is the deal. I am not going to pick up a $400 or above wheel. As much as I absolutely would love to, I just cannot do it from a responsibility standpoint.
So, the T80 is $99 on Amazon right now. The Thrustmaster tech support site no doubt lists it as compatible with DC (project Cars as well), so I figure for $99, something is better than nothing.
I also fear the closer we get to the games release, the more people will jack up the cost. I already see the same wheel on Amazon going for $165. New.

So has anyone else already done the same? Plan to? I know it is not a high quality wheel, but as I said I just cannot responsibly pick one of those up (I will be 40 years old this December with family stuff that comes first), so what do people think? Just pick it up now and be done with it? Or will there possibly be another model released prior to the game that is in the $99 price range?

Personally, I find the lower end wheels (in general) to not be worth it at any price. The DFGT (which does not work with the PS4) is about the only exception. They feel like toys or gimmicks and the novelty of turn a wheel wears off.

If you intend to play more serious racing games than DC (pCARS, GT7, etc), then I would highly suggest saving up some money and getting a proper wheel.

 

[Fried Food]

Personally, I find the lower end wheels (in general) to not be worth it at any price. The DFGT (which does not work with the PS4) is about the only exception. They feel like toys or gimmicks and the novelty of turn a wheel wears off.

If you intend to play more serious racing games than DC (pCARS, GT7, etc), then I would highly suggest saving up some money and getting a proper wheel.

yeah the G27 is as "low" as I'd go.

 

[le-seb]

Okay, so in a totally impulse buy, I am really close to picking up the Thrustmaster T80 so I have a wheel for Driveclub.

Why would you ever want to buy a wheel that doesn't have force feedback?
Get a T100 at least...

 

[mrklaw]

I'll survive with a controller for driveclub, with it seemingly controlling like PGR. But project cars would be a PC purchase even though I'd prefer it on PS4, as I want to use my DFGT. But at least I can play it. GT7 is my biggest worry.

Maybe if thrustmaster prices drop a little, or they bring in a more affordable DFGT level wheel with FFB, then I could sell my logitech and switch. But I'd much prefer my wheel to be supported

 

[Noisepurge]

couldn't they do like a USB passthrough adapter like this that has the chip?

 

[Mascot]

The speculation about Immersion's patent expiring next year is encouraging but it all sounds a little too simple. I've got a nasty feeling we'll all still be getting dicked around in limboland deep into 2016 and beyond.

 

[Juicy Bob]

Missed this until now but this is a right pain in the arse. :/

 

[darkwing]

couldn't they do like a USB passthrough adapter like this that has the chip?

ask Immersion if they are ok with this

 

[chico]

this situation is so messed up. i spent over 500$ for a Fanatec wheel and stand and now that the xb1 and ps4 are released the wheel is just garbage collecting dust. i dont care who is responsible... this situation is a big fuck you from ms/sony to all wheel owners.

 

[Cygnus]

Racing Wheels are still a thing? The last time i played one was Gran Turismo 2 on PS1.

Wheels will always be hugely superior to gamepads for racing, why would they not be a thing?

 

[Shaneus]

Wheels will always be hugely superior to gamepads for racing, why would they not be a thing?

They're a fad, just like 3D. I heard that the next big thing in driving games is going back to sprite-based parallax titles like the original Outrun and Super Monaco GP.

 

[Pallie]

this situation is so messed up. i spent over 500$ for a Fanatec wheel and stand and now that the xb1 and ps4 are released the wheel is just garbage collecting dust. i dont care who is responsible... this situation is a big fuck you from ms/sony to all wheel owners.

Do like what a lot of us in the exact same situation did- say fuck you back to them by not buying their consoles and instead build a gaming pc.

 

[paskowitz]

Do like what a lot of us in the exact same situation did- say fuck you back to them by not buying their consoles and instead build a gaming pc.

That is what I did. Probably won't get a PS4 until it is $300 or GT7 is out. That being said Sony is selling about as many consoles as possible at the moment.

 

[hesido]

Maybe some brave chinese company will produce an adapter that lets your wheel disguise itself as a supported wheel.. If there's big enough market for that, why not..

 

[Philly40]

If the Logitech licensing issue really is insurmountable, how would people here feel if say Driveclub offered a 'generic USB controller' setup option like War Thunder does?

Analogue pedals and steering, even without force feedback, is surely better than the sticks and triggers of the DS4.

I understand that most of the people posting in this thread may have invested significant amounts of money in their racing set-ups, but if there were no other options, would you prefer limited wheel support as opposed to no support at all?

 

[serversurfer]

I dunno. Rumble is pretty important for me to tell what's actually going on with my tires, even on a DualShock. I think I'd rather have a DS4 with rumble than a completely dead stick.

FakeEdit: Oh, specifically for Driveclub? That game seems at least semi-casual, so I'm sure playing it with the DS4 will be fine. Always worked great for Motorstorm. /shrug

 

[SMOK3Y]

this situation is so messed up. i spent over 500$ for a Fanatec wheel and stand and now that the xb1 and ps4 are released the wheel is just garbage collecting dust. i dont care who is responsible... this situation is a big fuck you from ms/sony to all wheel owners.

ya ive spent 1200 on CSW plus bought racing seat & all triples theres no way im buying another wheel ill just stick to racing on PC

 

[MiniBossBattle]

Can't logitech sell a pass through usb piece that works for the g27? I would pay a little extra rather than convince the wife about buying another wheel.

 

[wiggleb0t]

Daaaamn that sucks, and bodes poorly for PS3 sticks too.Sticks and wheels aren't something you should have to buy once per console

One stick for all consoles thanks to Cronus Max little hack chip...Use xbox one controller on ps4 and vice versus.
Not sure how it applies to wheels.

If Cronus and Xim can 'hack' the security/encryption surely logitech could sell a $10 usb if Sony permitted it....

 

[hesido]

Can't logitech sell a pass through usb piece that works for the g27? I would pay a little extra rather than convince the wife about buying another wheel.

This is a good idea, since Logitech seems to be out of wheel business, and not in the interest of selling more of their non-existent new line of wheels, why not make a dongle and transfer the licensing costs the consumer?? And make some extra bucks in the process.

 

[Shaneus]

This is a good idea, since Logitech seems to be out of wheel business, and not in the interest of selling more of their non-existent new line of wheels, why not make a dongle and transfer the licensing costs the consumer?? And make some extra bucks in the process.

Because from what I can tell, the licensing isn't on a per-device basis, so it's not like Logitech can give Immersion $500 if they only sell 50 devices. They'd likely lose millions.

 

[hesido]

Because from what I can tell, the licensing isn't on a per-device basis, so it's not like Logitech can give Immersion $500 if they only sell 50 devices. They'd likely lose millions.

But since the licensing expired after Ps3, a new licensing scheme can be adopted for new devices, and it could be per device. The deal during PS3 times were already when many PS3's were sold, and also encompassed the PS2, which made per-device licensing unfeasable. Of course the wholesome licensing deal was worded that no future platform was included, for the well being/ in favor of the patent holder.

These are being written with absolute 0 experience in the legal business.

 

[mrklaw]

But since the licensing expired after Ps3, a new licensing scheme can be adopted for new devices, and it could be per device. The deal during PS3 times were already when many PS3's were sold, and also encompassed the PS2, which made per-device licensing unfeasable. Of course the wholesome licensing deal was worded that no future platform was included, for the well being/ in favor of the patent holder.

This are being written with absolute 0 experience in the legal business.

this is a good point. Immersion had Sony's balls in a vice with PS3 so got a great deal. But there isn't anything out there with a risk of recall etc, so it can be a normal licensing negotiation. And Immersion may be more realistic considering Neither Sony or Logitech seem that bothered in supporting legacy devices on PS4, so some money will be better than none?

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

It always amazes me the amounts of money some people pay for wheel set ups. For me buying a accessory that costs more than the console is lunacy.

Not trying to troll, I admire the passion. Just saying.

 

[Ted]

I've got to be honest, I'm past all the specifics now, particularly now we know this probably relates to licensing on a vacuous conceptual patent.

Someone - the platform holders in my view - now just need to get this shit sorted sooner rather than later. And by sorted I mean either get legacy wheels working or clearly say "sorry folks, these don't and will never work" so we can either cut our losses or make alternative arrangements.

It's probably not factually accurate but it feels as though all parties concerned have led us, the end user, the folks whose purchases ultimately pay their fucking wages, up the garden path, passing blame and/or providing no or misleading information.

If it were feasible for me I would simply say fuck it and not even bother with these shitty feature regressive new consoles and just go full PC gaming but it just isn't and that... that... makes me feel like a fucking mug.

 

[Mascot]

I've got to be honest, I'm past all the specifics now, particularly now we know this probably relates to licensing on a vacuous conceptual patent.

Someone - the platform holders in my view - now just need to get this shit sorted sooner rather than later. And by sorted I mean either get legacy wheels working or clearly say "sorry folks, these don't and will never work" so we can either cut our losses or make alternative arrangements.

It's probably not factually accurate but it feels as though all parties concerned have led us, the end user, the folks whose purchases ultimately pay their fucking wages, up the garden path, passing blame and/or providing no or misleading information.

If it were feasible for me I would simply say fuck it and not even bother with these shitty feature regressive new consoles and just go full PC gaming but it just isn't and that... that... makes me feel like a fucking mug.

Xbox doing a deal with Fanatec and having Forza branding on a really expensive late-gen wheel was the ultimate fuck-you to all their customers. In my eyes there was implicit support from the whole Forza platform going forwards and not just for the Xbox 360, which is what it was actually limited to.

 

[Bluforce]

Kazunori, please save us.

 

[Gen X]

yeah the G27 is as "low" as I'd go.

Ditto. Bought mine a few years ago when they had a special in NZ for $400, but that was still a lot for a peripheral for me. I bought it because the G25 worked on the PS2 & PS3, so I assumed the G27 was going to be supported by Sony for years to come.

Oh well, worst case scenario, it'll last me years on PC.

 

[soundscream]

Xbox doing a deal with Fanatec and having Forza branding on a really expensive late-gen wheel was the ultimate fuck-you to all their customers. In my eyes there was implicit support from the whole Forza platform going forwards and not just for the Xbox 360, which is what it was actually limited to.

Well no it wasn't. No Xbox controllers worked on the 360. When they announced the high end Fantec wheel myself and others said it would be smart to wait and see if they would carry forward. I would have bought one but I knew the odds were high that it wouldn't carry over to the next Gen.

 

[Gen X]

The head honchos at Sony & MS need to tread carefully, why should we purchase a new wheel for either X1 or PS4 in the coming years when there is a chance it won't next gen? It's in their best interests to allow peripherals to work cross gen.

Optimistic Oliver says "Man I am going to buy the next console cos X driving game was awesome and I got this wicked wheel I spent $400 on for previous gen but sounds supported for years to come"

while Pessimistic Pete says "Man, X company probably won't support this expensive peripheral next gen so I'm just going to dismiss X genre since I won't enjoy them with a pad."

I understand that the primary controllers change but in reality as a consumer we deserve a choice of quality hardware that is supported now (or in our case, last gen) and for years to come, after all, the input method for driving, fighters etc will always remain the same. Gaming can be expensive and realising that certain accessories are deemed useless in the coming years is off putting and will affect software choices too.

 

[Pallie]

Well no it wasn't. No Xbox controllers worked on the 360. When they announced the high end Fantec wheel myself and others said it would be smart to wait and see if they would carry forward. I would have bought one but I knew the odds were high that it wouldn't carry over to the next Gen.

Congratulations on being so smart and farsighted. The fact remains the whole MS/Fanatec thing ranks as one of the biggest fuck-overs in the history of gaming.

 

[rothgar]

Can't logitech sell a pass through usb piece that works for the g27? I would pay a little extra rather than convince the wife about buying another wheel.

Yeah, and my wife bought me my G27 two years ago. If I can't use that one anymore, I'm pretty much done with driving games on the PS4. I also have a Logitech GT wheel in the closet from the PS2 days, and it worked on the PS3. I'm not paying for another one.

 

[C-PK]

I sold my g25 5 years ago to a friend. I bought a g27 a few months back for PC racing as the other logitech wheels just don't cut it. This is stopping my purchase of any racing game on PS4. I'll be picking up project cars on PC if it is not supported on PS4.

 

[soundscream]

Congratulations on being so smart and farsighted. The fact remains the whole MS/Fanatec thing ranks as one of the biggest fuck-overs in the history of gaming.

You and me have had this out before, so Im not going to respond to your snark.

But looking at the history of peripherals on the xbox anyone should have had doubts about it them carrying forward. It sucks, and I have $500 worth of gear that is useless, but I knew the possibility existed. I was more shocked about the PS4 situation because the G25 worked on the PS2/PS3, so I was confident that the G25/27 would work on the PS4.

 

[mrklaw]

Tbh the T300 sounds quite a lot better than my DFGT..maybe I could justify it as an upgrade. Still a shame they don't work cross console, so you can only have PC+XB1 (thrustmaster TX) or PC+PS4 (T300)

 

[drugstore_cowboy]

Yeah it's a shame. Decent base and rim on the T300 and if you've lived with the DFGT pedals the standard Thrustmaster ones probably won't be a problem.