-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Logitech responds about PS4 wheel support - Sony demands advanced security
- Thread starter DieH@rd
- Start date
AstroNut325
Member
So Sony nor Logitech can make a adapter/dongle that can work with existing wheels?
^ Not without violating Immersion's licenses, as long as both are unwilling to pay.
Please somebody update the OP with all the information amar212 has collected so that everybody can understand that to solve this situation, big money must flow from somebody's pockets into Immersion's ones, and that this required PS4 security chip is mostly PR bullshit / damage control.
They'll either add surprise support by the end of 2015, when the patents expire, or won't give a fuck at all if they're still out of console peripherals at that time.
Please somebody update the OP with all the information amar212 has collected so that everybody can understand that to solve this situation, big money must flow from somebody's pockets into Immersion's ones, and that this required PS4 security chip is mostly PR bullshit / damage control.
They cannot announce that, as long as they're still in business with Immersion.
They'll either add surprise support by the end of 2015, when the patents expire, or won't give a fuck at all if they're still out of console peripherals at that time.
Freeman
Banned
Not necessarily, it they just made a statement that the wheels will be supported once there is no more need to pay for the license I'm pretty much satisfied.
serversurfer
Member
A public statement of, "We just don't wanna pay Immersion," could get them in to trouble though, especially as a current Immersion licensee.
drugstore_cowboy
Member
Is there no public face of Sony you could approach to ask?
Don't expect to get a solution to the problem, hundreds of people moaning their wheel doesn't work and threatening to boycott a game will probably go nowhere but telling the right person you represent a noisy and frustrated group of influential customers who just want a simple explanation might get you noticed.
Tell them Microsoft stopped the speculation and put their customers out of their misery early, why can't Sony do the same?
serversurfer
Member
What would you want from Sony, exactly? A statement saying it's all Logitech's responsibility? That Logitech are lying/confused about this security chip? It's not really Sony's issue, and I don't see what they could really add on the subject that wouldn't make it look like they were just throwing Logitech under the bus.
What did MS have to say on the subject?
drugstore_cowboy
Member
They said a change in protocol and the kinect sensor made compatibility impossible. Nobody really bought the answers but it gave me at least the chance to either support the platform or not. Before then we were all in the dark.
Wonder if someone could change the USB ID of the Logitech G series so it matches that particular Thrustmaster (T10?) - Im sure its not that easy as the layout setup could be different but its a worthwhile thought
The concern I have is that what about when the PS5 is out, having the newer G29 wont guarantee compatibility - Im just not putting myself in a situation where Im spending £200+ on wheels every console generation
ps3ud0 8)
serversurfer
Member
heh Yeah, that sounds like bullshit. I dunno why Kinect would be related at all, and yeah, they "improved" the protocol. Right. They used proprietary connections last generation, so there was really no reason to not expect them to do the same this time around. XB1 stuff never worked with the XB2, did it? Anyone hoping XB2 gear would work with XB3 was fooling themselves, IMO.
So yeah, since MS' statement was nothing more than PR bullshit, I'd just assume Sony keep their mouth shut rather than give us more of the same. Unlike MS, Sony didn't change anything — it's all just USB — so there's no need for them to come up with any lame excuses to justify such a change. The most Sony could say would be, "It's entirely up to Logitech, and Immersion has them by the balls." But what do they really gain by saying that? Better to say, "Sorry, we don't have any information on that subject. Have you asked Logitech?"
Also, you point out that with the MS response, even though it was bullshit, "at least you knew to give up hope." Except with the Logitech/PS4 situation, all hope is not lost. If the holdup truly is Immersion's patent, we'll be free of it not this Christmas, but next.
Thrustmaster wheels use a different FFB language IIRC. So even if you spoofed the PS4 into thinking a TM wheel was connected when it really is a Logitech wheel, the FFB in game would not work.
IMO (and I know nothing), there are only a few moderately positive outcomes (all of which depend on any exclusive Thrustmaster license expiring or not existing):
- Logitech develops a new FFB protocol for a new wheel and all previous wheels do not work (maybe G25/G27 pedals, wheel rim and shifter work) (but this will be expensive)
- SCE drops whatever policy is preventing Fanatec devices from working PS4, Fanatec wheels magically start working (unlikely with TM around)
- Some type of agreement is made between SCE, Logitech and Immersion where the business case is sound for all 3 parties and previous Logitech wheels work with the PS4 (super unlikely as explained below)
IMO the biggest issue here is that there is almost 0 incentive for SCE to not continue on the path they are on now. If they have an agreement with Thrustmaster and that is making them money, then why not continue that?
This reeks of similarity with Porsche's deal with EA. The gamer gets shafted and both companies gain.
drugstore_cowboy
Member
Yeah but all I wanted was a yes or no, this grey area of listing compatible devices but not ruling out Logitech leaves owners in limbo.
As a former Fanatec owner if I'd not sold there and then I'd be left with a wheel that would lost 2/3 of reasons I or most others would want it.
Thrustmaster would even benefit from some clarity too, DFGT/G25/27 owners holding onto their hardware in the hope of compatibility down the line are potential customers, right now as the only company to offer a working wheel I'm sure they can't be all that happy.
As a former Fanatec owner if I'd not sold there and then I'd be left with a wheel that would lost 2/3 of reasons I or most others would want it.
Thrustmaster would even benefit from some clarity too, DFGT/G25/27 owners holding onto their hardware in the hope of compatibility down the line are potential customers, right now as the only company to offer a working wheel I'm sure they can't be all that happy.
serversurfer
Member
Sony are in no position to "rule out" Logitech. Only Logitech can do that, and they appear to have done so.
That said, some of us are holding on to the hope that Logitech are merely quietly waiting for Immersion's patents to expire next year.
drugstore_cowboy
Member
Good luck to you all.
immortal-joe
Member
The reasoning is irrelevant to me at this point, I just need one of the parties involved to take action. I'm on board with any Twitter bombing (or similar) campaign.
https://twitter.com/LogitechG/statuses/496042493155094528
All in all, while some devices [such as generic USB and bluetooth keyboards and mices] can be used without limitation on PS4, controllers that [supposedly] have high pooling rate are restricted. Sony demands advanced security measures for them. Or at least it demands this chip for "full functionality".
Sony. Pls. Don't do this. There is metric shitton of old Logitech wheels in the wild, many of htem are really great [GT Pro, DFGT, G25, G27], and would be mistake not to support them. At least make it right before GT7 is out.
PS3 was hacked by using a buffer overflow on the USB port. USB has recently been proven to be an insecure standard to which there's no easy fix.
That is why Sony are relying on low polling rates and separate security chips to protect their machine.
Wax Free Vanilla
Member
4theplayers my arse
at least sony will be punished with disastrous sales for gran turismo putting it further in the ground - no logitech support no sale
at least sony will be punished with disastrous sales for gran turismo putting it further in the ground - no logitech support no sale
Don't worry, GT7 won't release until 2017, and the Immersion patent will be over then, so you'll be able to play it with your G27!
Who knows, GT may even include a course maker then! ^^
In regards to that security chip BS, there's obviously some sort of a whitelist that exists, otherwise old Thrustmaster wheels, that obviously don't contain said security chip, would not work with the PS4.
This really does sound like it has everything to do with Immersion's patents.
We've been through this, haven't we? It's not their machine any more once I purchase it, it's mine. If I want to hack it, that's my prerogative.
It's still fucked, IMO. I've got a new flight stick that's even marketed as being compatible with PS3, but no one knows if it works on PS4. Probably not, at this point.
serversurfer
Member
Supposedly, GT7 will come quicker than GT5 did, and the patents will actually run out in time for Christmas 2015.
Wax Free Vanilla
Member
course maker is coming in december with gt6 spec II ps3 / ps4, traces of it were in update 1.10/11
so no need to downgrade by choosing the ps4 option to sample the delights of course maker
Hack all you want, Sony are trying to make sure you can't.
drugstore_cowboy
Member
You could wait until the PS4 patent runs out and write your own drivers.
serversurfer
Member
The Logitech drivers have already been written, and are in use on one of the chipless, PS4-compatible Thrustmaster wheels.
All that's left is for Logitech to publish them for use with their own wheels too.
Supposedly, GT7 will come quicker than GT5 did, and the patents will actually run out in time for Christmas 2015.
I don't feel this "expired patent, rejoice!" is going to work.
First, patents can be renewed. Second, it is highly unlikely that any of wheels included in this particular issue use only one "patent".
They are using an API driver software for haptic FFB, called TouchSense, which is probably made of many different patents held by Immersion Corp.
Also, worth noticing is how different Logitrch wheels are using different versions (generations) of TouchSense. So, the TouchSense in Driving Force Pro wheel is npt the same as in DFGT wheel, for instance.
Also, and this one is most relevant, nothing of the above makes the 2007 "business agreement" (which isn't called settlement, although it is settlement) between Sony and Immersion non-applicable. Immersion had it completely made in their own interest - after all, it was their lawyers that negotiated settlement, because actual call for damages was twice as high before settlement took place, same as with Microsoft.
If Sony would ever allow for TouchSense devices to be used on thier console(s) outside of list nominated in settlement, they would breach the agreement and open themselves for another trial - and Immersion would win it in a day.
Everyone should really take their time and read the actual agreement - it is linked in my initial post in this thread - and try to understand the complexitybof the case.
Back in the PS1, PS2, Xbox and Xbox360 days both Sony and Microsoft had allowed that various devices that are using haptic patents - owned by Immersion - work on their platforms. Unfortunatelly for both, all their "shock/rumble" controllers and various other peripherals (wheels, sticks..) were also using them, so claims were immense, as well as the final settlement.
Both Sony and Microsoft are now paying the Immersion Corp. for using their haptic solutions for their controllers, but it is up to third-party manufacturers to license usage of their products as well. If Sony or Microsoft would again allow for third-party peripherals that uses both TouchSense or other haptics patenets owned by Immersion on their platforms, they would voilate the settlements.
It is all basically written in the settlement texts for both Sony and Microsoft and it was covered in great detail by tech and business media at the 2005-2007 period, you can find great amount of info on the internet.
drugstore_cowboy
Member
I was only being an arsehole there but which Thrustmaster wheel uses Logitech drivers? I must have missed something.
From my limited experience and ignoring the Fanatec's PS3 mode and possibly some high end gear, wheels don't just run under different manufacturers drivers.
They don't always run properly under their own manufacturer's drivers.
From my limited experience and ignoring the Fanatec's PS3 mode and possibly some high end gear, wheels don't just run under different manufacturers drivers.
They don't always run properly under their own manufacturer's drivers.
The Faceless Master
Member
a peripheral lockout chip is about one thing.
money.
it won't stop a determined coder, they'll just piggyback off of it.
look at those various controller adapter and mouse emulation solutions on 360...
it *will* stop the mass manufacture of unlicensed 3rd party peripherals though.
money.
it won't stop a determined coder, they'll just piggyback off of it.
look at those various controller adapter and mouse emulation solutions on 360...
it *will* stop the mass manufacture of unlicensed 3rd party peripherals though.
I've just tried this using a Logitech Driving Force Pro -
the setup wizard recognises all inputs apart from the dpad on the left side of the wheel.
I was able to fly around quite happily using the wheel to control ailerons, the pedals as rudders and the gear shifter as a throttle.
I also tried it with a PS3 madcatz TE arcade stick, and the joystick and buttons are all recognised. At first glance it would seem that if War Thunder can work with arcade sticks then something like Injustice should be able to do it too.
(both also worked for longer than the 8-minute time-out mentioned previously in the thread)
I'm going to look out my old Rock Band instruments and see if the setup wizard can detect them also
course maker is coming in december with gt6 spec II ps3 / ps4, traces of it were in update 1.10/11
so no need to downgrade by choosing the ps4 option to sample the delights of course maker
Link please?
None, but there is T100 model that uses Immersion Corporation licensed TouchSense - also used by Logitech.
However, if Thrustmaster have the licensing negotiated with Immersion - as third-party, they are obliged to - they can pretty much "whitelist" that wheel for PS4 usage.
To be clear, I am 99% confident how both Microsoft and Sony also use Immersion Corp. owned patents for their XboxOne and DualShock 4 controllers that are covering various "haptics" (rumble) patents. But those licenses do not cover "third-party" usage - and that is the provision under which the Logitech wheels are falling.
It is all written in settlements. All my consclusions arr based on my subjective understandings of all that legal crazyness from there, as well as from connecting dots from various other artciles written about the subject.
drugstore_cowboy
Member
Thanks amar I think I understand a little better now.
What a mess. Tbh as far as I know I'm all set this gen with a T500 and TX. Bring it on. I hope Logitech owners get the answer you are looking for asap as this business will blow up with every new racing game release and bog down hype on here.
What a mess. Tbh as far as I know I'm all set this gen with a T500 and TX. Bring it on. I hope Logitech owners get the answer you are looking for asap as this business will blow up with every new racing game release and bog down hype on here.
serversurfer
Member
Can they? Everything I'm seeing says 20 years from the priority date. AFAIK, only trademarks can be "kept alive."
Immersion sued Sony for violation of U.S. Patent 6,424,333 and U.S. Patent 6,275,213, which were both extensions of U.S. Patent 6,088,017. '017 itself was an extension of an earlier patent, dating back to Nov 30, 1995. As such, all of the patents in question carry the original patent's priority date of Nov 30, 1995, and will expire Nov 30, 2015.
Do you have additional/conflicting information?
Err, Sony need to actively block other companies from reaching independent agreements with Immersion and releasing FFB-enabled controllers for Sony platforms? Where are you getting that? =/
Can you cite the specific passages that say this stuff? This isn't how I've read any of the stuff you've linked.
My understanding is that Sony had an agreement in place to use Immersion technology for "PlayStation." When "PlayStation 2" came out, Sony worked from the assumption that, as a PlayStation, it was covered by the original agreement. Immersion argued, successfully, that "PlayStation" only referred specifically to the PS1, and not any other platforms that may carry the same brand name. Armed with that ruling, they were able to collect retroactive damages for the PS2, and force Sony to negotiate new separate, agreements for the PS3 and other PlayStation platforms.
Is that not how it went down? What am I missing?
Yes, agreed.
That's where you lose me. If Logitech work out a deal with Immersion, why is it Sony's responsibility to lock out Logitech controllers? =/
OK, I checked that and I agree - great. I was under the impression how patents can be extended in US, however it seems it is not the case.
No, that is accurate IIRC
Here:
The "license" from the agreement does not "extend" to "..any Console or device other than the PlayStation Consoles" - and the settlement text clearly notes how "PlayStation Consoles" are PS1/PSP/PS2/PS3 - not PS4.
Maybe I can't read leal text, but Sony is at no position to allow any device to work outside the "logic" imposed in the settlement.
Yes, I t went like that IIRC, same as in Microsoft case. Microsoft made their settlement prior to Xbox360 release, so Xbox360 was launched with the working rumble controllers. Sony settled their case after the PS3 release, so that was the true reason why there was no "rumble" in Sixaxis and why any FFB wheels didn't work when the console launched (even GT:HD was launched without FFB enabled for Japan demo version, force feedback support came in March 2007, once PAL demo was released).
Also, F1 Championship Edition got FFB support, because it didn't worked before Match 2007 update. The settlement also allowed Sony to make DualShock 3 and launch it with the PS3 FW update.
Also, agreed.
If Logitech settle the licenses, then it is no problem, we agree. I maybe didn't wrote it clear enough, my point was they would not allow devices without licensing to be used, because that would breach the settlement.
To make this clear, I want all of us to be right and to have our wheels working on PS4. I am simply trying to find logic in this mess, same as many of us.
Thanks, this definitely fits with what the Skullgirls devs were saying. I hope more people see your post, since it clears up a lot of avenues of speculation.
I'm going to go out on a limb and assume force-feedback wasn't working...
serversurfer
Member
Yeah, from what I can tell, we should be free of this nonsense next year.
Can you cite that part for me? The only thing I saw regarding the definition of "PlayStation" was that Immersion won the original decision because the term "PlayStation" did not cover devices such as the PS2, PSP, or PS3.
To me, that implies Sony had a deal for PS1, and owed damages for PS2. Going forward, they could've worked out separate deals for the PSP, PS3, and PSV, and then a new agreement for the PS4, or they may have worked out a single deal to cover all PlayStations from the settlement to the expiry of the patent. However, if the details of post-PS2 and post-PS3 licensing between Immersion and Sony were ever made public, I haven't seen it.
I haven't seen anything that explicitly says "'PlayStation' is currently defined as; PS1, PS2, PS3, PSP, and PSV." Only that "whatever came after PS1 isn't a 'PlayStation.'" Follow?
Right, they're in no position to allow it. It sounded like you were then concluding that beyond having no permission to allow it, they were somehow obligated to prevent it. I doubt that's the case.
Let's say Logitech decide to ignore the patent, and they deliver drivers to Slightly Mad for use with pCARS. Immersion can't really take action against Sony for "allowing" it, because Sony had nothing to do with it. They can simply say, "Hey, Logitech wheels aren't even officially licensed PS4 peripherals. We don't know what they're thinking."
That said, I see no reason for Logitech to attempt to fight the patent, especially when it's about to expire, so the issue of Sony "allowing it" is not likely to ever come up.
Same. /high-five
Thanks, this definitely fits with what the Skullgirls devs were saying. I hope more people see your post, since it clears up a lot of avenues of speculation.
I'm going to go out on a limb and assume force-feedback wasn't working...
No force-feedback unfortunately (although there is power going to the wheel, as it returns to neutral when you let it go)
I'm more confused about the assertion that USB devices will only work for 8 minutes without a security chip, I tested both the steering wheel and arcade stick for about 30 minutes each and they were still working.
drugstore_cowboy
Member
Absolutely. I don't know whether amar is barking up the wrong tree or not but it may be enough to trigger an official response if only to correct his findings.
I think that's only if the controller tries to pretend that is an official Sony peripheral, like making the Device ID match the DS4.
BradleyLove
Member
Wut?
What planet are you on thinking a significant proportion of GT players own wheels? Sales of GT6 would imply not many.
So what is stopping sony from supporting logitech wheels but without FFB? And then patching it in later on if possible. While I'd much prefer FFB, I'd take basic controls for now.
drugstore_cowboy
Member
I might be remembering wrong but it's better this way than when Sony broke compatibility in some unlicensed controllers before, at least now the stuff is guaranteed to work.
serversurfer
Member
Actually, if the patent is the true sticking point here, it could actually open the floodgates for 3rd-party controllers from game pads to wheels and flight sticks simply because they won't need to pay Immersion for permission to make them after it expires.
Edit: Oh, and if the patent is the problem, I hope Morpheus doesn't come out until Christmas '15 so they can include rumble in that too.
The problem is that there are many patents and that Immersion could file for reapplications for some of them (although that has to get approved).
serversurfer
Member
Amar and I just went over that. AFAICT, Immersion's claims all stem from a single patent expiring next year, and there's no way to renew it.
Do you have additional information that contradicts this?
Neuromancer
Member
???course maker is coming in december with gt6 spec II ps3 / ps4, traces of it were in update 1.10/11
so no need to downgrade by choosing the ps4 option to sample the delights of course maker
Is this real? I'm assuming its not, didn't the course maker end up being some weird GPS thing in like, one car?