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[Shiggy]

German media say secret documents reveal the US has pressured the EU to approve a transatlantic free trade deal. The reports say Washington may block easier car exports if the EU doesn't open up its agricultural market.

German media say 240 pages of text from secret transatlantic free trade talks obtained by Greenpeace show that the US is pressuring the EU.

Washington was blocking European car exports into the US to force the 508-million-population EU to buy more environmentally risky US farm produce, claimed the "Süddeutsche Zeitung" (SZ) newspaper and two German public television channels. Greenpeace said it would publish the material later on Monday, contrary to strict secrecy maintained by US and EU negotiating teams during three years of talks on the proposed Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP).



Documents seem authentic
The German news agency DPA said persons close to the talks had confirmed the authenticity of the documents. Accessibility so far has been strictly limited.

By blocking an easing of car exports into the US, Washington wanted the EU to replace its precautionary consumer safety principle by the liberal US approach of permitting foodstuffs until risks are proven, said the media outlets, including the ARD network's channels NDR and WDR.

The EU's principle that goods must first be certified as safe has often been cited by the EU to constrain imports of American gene-manipulated and hormone-treated produce.



Public arbitration panels blocked
The German outlets said the documents disclosed by Greenpeace also showed that the US was blocking an EU demand that arbitration panels to handle corporate lawsuits be public not private as sought by Washington.

Greenpeace trade expert Jürgen Knirsch said what had so far trickled out of the talks had "sounded like a nightmare." "Now we know that this could very much become reality," said Knirsch. The head of Germany's consumer advisory bureaus Klaus Müller told the SZ that the texts confirmed "pretty much all of our fears in terms of what the US-Americans want to achieve on the food produce market through TTIP."

http://www.dw.com/en/leaked-papers-allege-us-pressuring-eu-over-ttip-free-trade-deal/a-19228527

It looks like all of the things that people were fearing for TTIP are actual positions of the US.

@the mod who questions German media and decides to close threads based on that:
Files were published by the same paper which also obtained the Panama Papers (Sueddeutsche), while DW is Germany’s international broadcaster - hope that's reliable enough.

 

[Sesuadra]

and I don't know. The whole TTIP thing seems shady as f...
Merkel does not want to talk to the initiative that collected more than 3 million signatures against TTIP and all that.

Partly thanks to this sort of speculation, TTIP has become one of the most toxic issues in German politics, and one that Gabriel has come to personify as his country’s chief negotiator of the deal. All the secrecy has made this a punishing job. “The members of parliament are all angry about it,” he says. And so is a growing segment of the German public. According to a recent nationwide poll, only 17% of Germans consider the free-trade deal a good thing, compared to 55% in 2014, when the negotiations were just getting started.

http://time.com/4312763/ttip-trans-atlantic-trade-deal-obama/

 

[Shiggy]

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/wirtschaft/ttip-papiere-amerika-macht-druck-wie-nie-1.2974979

german source

I didn't want to use a source in German as I got shit for that the last time (when it was Spiegel Online)...

 

[G.O.O.]

TTIP seems dead to me anyway

 

[Sesuadra]

I didn't want to use a source in German as I got shit for that the last time (when it was Spiegel Online)...

I know it was more for people from germany who maybe would like it ^_^/

Spoiler

war keine unterschwellige kritik an dir!

 

[No Love]

Fuck, our country is so shady and is always twisting everyone's arms.

 

[LUFTRAUSER]

TTIP seems dead to me anyway

Apparently all the uproar over the TPP has allowed the TTIP to sort of fly under the radar.

Looking at the conditions of the TTIP deal that have been discussed I don't see how it benefits the EU at all. It seems like it is just bringing them down to American levels of safety, consumer protection, etc. It's great for American businesses though, obviously.

 

[G.O.O.]

Apparently all the uproar over the TPP has allowed the TTIP to sort of fly under the radar.

Looking at the conditions of the TTIP deal I don't see how it benefits the EU at all. It seems like it is just bringing them down to American levels of safety, consumer protection, etc. It's great for American businesses though, obviously.

Neither Trump nor Clinton seem to like it though, which is why Obama tries to have it signed before he leaves the white house.

It will be very complicated. Europeans know about this and they don't like it either, national parliaments even less than the european one. Plus Germany, Italy and France are voting in 2017...

As for the content, well, technically it's still being discussed, so...

 

[GunslingerVit]

Looking at the conditions of the TTIP deal that have been discussed I don't see how it benefits the EU at all. It seems like it is just bringing them down to American levels of safety, consumer protection, etc. It's great for American businesses though, obviously.

Selling automobiles is a huge deal for Germany and is the major leverage for everything. The car industry is like the sacred cow. Threatening to downregulate the import of German automobiles could have an impact on German economy.

"Please think about the car manufacturers."

 

[Shiggy]

The papers are now available here: http://www.ttip-leaks.org

 

[Elchele]

These trade agreements are always shady and end up costing million of jobs, only benefits a bunch of big companies as always.

 

[Frankfurter]

I really hope this will be enough to spark even more protest. It's a damn bad deal and we should never sign it.

 

[Sarek]

These trade agreements are always shady and end up costing million of jobs, only benefits a bunch of big companies as always.

Well that is simply not true. By that logic we would be better of if we still lived in a medieval world where trading and establishing business was extremely restricted.

 

[Moosichu]

Well that is simply not true. By that logic we would be better of if we still lived in a medieval world where trading and establishing business was extremely restricted.

Yeah. Free trade has been good overall.

However, this deal doesn't seem to be a good one.

 

[chrizzz09]

Well, this is funny^^:

Greenpeace activists project #TTIPleaks documents on the Berlin Reichstag.

 

[pa22word]

Fuck, our country is so shady and is always twisting everyone's arms.

Everyone twists everyone's arms at this level of politics. Nation's are inherently self-interested entities to an extreme level, and no country really does anything at the national level without some kind of leverage being wedged against them from somewhere--external or internal. It's just the way the game is played. The US is twisting Germany's arm on this, while I'm sure there are a lot of deals where Germany twists the US' arm right back.

 

[Gormless Noodle]

The empire at it again huh. Let's hope to shit it doesn't go through or I'll be sifting through everything food related I buy to avoid that American garbage.

 

[Caayn]

All hail our great overlord, USA, USA, USA, USA.

Placing the interests of corporations above that of the citizens, the right choice to make.

 

[spekkeh]

I'm going to be so vindicated when they tie this to the US government going after Volkswagen.

 

[anonymous_abc]

My failed OT on the topic is almost two years old. You're welcome.

 

[Walpurgis]

I hate America.

 

[Kurdel]

What's up with the EU and anti-GMO? Don't they read the scientific literature?

 

[Dennis]

Washington wanted the EU to replace its precautionary consumer safety principle by the liberal US approach of permitting foodstuffs until risks are proven

"We can't say that it is poisonous! As we haven't tested it"

 

[Ashby]

Europe's anti-GMO hysteria is an embarrassment.

 

[Arnie7]

Europe's anti-GMO hysteria is an embarrassment.

Yeah OK. Speak for yourself.

 

[Kurdel]

Yeah OK. Speak for yourself.

Being anti-science is never a good look tho

 

[Gormless Noodle]

Being anti-science is never a good look tho

Yes, yes. Wonderful. Let's make a deal then, we'll be anti-science about that and you can make fun of us while you keep all that stuff to yourselves. Thanks!

 

[hobblygobbly]

What's up with the EU and anti-GMO? Don't they read the scientific literature?

Europe's anti-GMO hysteria is an embarrassment.

Since when is testing GMOs before it enters the market now anti-GMO?

Using a precautionary principle for GMOs entering the market is a good thing, not a bad thing. If it passes the rigorous scientific evaluation, it enters the market. The U.S doesn't want this testing, it just wants to put it in the market. Do you think new food stuffs entering the market should not be tested beforehand by EU standards?

Also, the EU is less reliant on GMOs since EU agriculture is very self-sustainable, why would we need unregulated flow of GMO products into the market?

I'm not saying that some countries in the EU aren't anti-GMO, but this situation in particular has nothing to do with anti-GMOs necessarily just because we have our own standards for testing food stuffs for sale in our own markets.

 

[kmfdmpig]

It's almost as if in negotiation each side has different things they want and try to get those things in agreements.
Also, I wonder if those blocked cars included the diesel Volkswagens that were made to purposefully cheat emissions tests and poison the air?

 

[jimbobsmells]

More here:
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/may/01/leaked-ttip-documents-cast-doubt-on-eu-us-trade-deal

US proposals include an obligation on the EU to inform its industries of any planned regulations in advance, and to allow them the same input into EU regulatory processes as European firms.

American firms could influence the content of EU laws at several points along the regulatory line, including through a plethora of proposed technical working groups and committees.

“Before the EU could even pass a regulation, it would have to go through a gruelling impact assessment process in which the bloc would have to show interested US parties that no voluntary measures, or less exacting regulatory ones, were possible,” Riss said.

 

[Ghost]

So sad that TTIP still exists, less jobs for Europe, less banking regulation for the US, the ability for corporations to sue sovereign nations for infringing on profits...just a terrible deal for everyone who's not a billionaire.

 

[Kwame120]

I don't understand replies that the EU is being "anti-science". If anything, it's more scientific to rigorously test something before introducing it to your bodies and he ecosystem, rather than trying to fix the ensuing mess afterwards. Replace "GMO" with drugs [edit, of the medical variety] and you can see what I mean. (Think of Thalidomide.)

 

[Arnie7]

Being anti-science is never a good look tho

Go away with that shit. Science is what the gmo companies are afraid of. Preliminary testing and precautionary steps are good for all new foods that want to enter markets. Why rush it?

 

[kmfdmpig]

Go away with that shit. Science is what the gmo companies are afraid of. Preliminary testing and precautionary steps are good for all new foods that want to enter markets. Why rush it?

The leaked information may be a bit hyperbolic if the European Commission is to be believed:
http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in-focus/ttip/about-ttip/questions-and-answers/

Will TTIP force the EU to change its laws on Genetically Modified Organisms (GMOs)? Show or hide the answer
No.

The EU has a strict system for deciding whether to allow companies to sell any given GMO in the EU. This is entirely separate from trade negotiations.

The EU basic law on GMOs - including the European Food Safety Authority’s (EFSA) safety assessment and the risk management procedure - is not up for negotiation. It will not change as a result of TTIP.

Scientists at the EFSA assess all applications to sell GMO products in the EU. EU governments then consider their findings before deciding whether to approve the application. So far, they have authorised 58 GMOs.

Regulators in the EU and US already exchange information about GMOs - on policy, regulations and technical issues. TTIP could help them do so more effectively. This would help limit the effect on trade of our different systems for approving GMOs.

Food safety in TTIP
Will the EU be flooded with cheap US food? Show or hide the answer
The EU is the world's biggest importer and exporter of agricultural and food products. The food industry is the EU's largest manufacturing sector in terms of turnover.

US exports of agricultural commodities to the EU are vital as animal feed and ingredients in the food industry.
We are aware that competition from US products as a result of full liberalisation of EU-US trade could adversely affect some EU agricultural products.

In these cases, instead of full liberalisation we would negotiate import quotas, as we have in other EU free trade agreements.

Of course, US exports to the EU will still have to meet EU basic requirements, such as the EU's ban on beef from animals treated with growth hormones.

 

[jimbobsmells]

In these cases, instead of full liberalisation we would negotiate import quotas, as we have in other EU free trade agreements.

Of course, US exports to the EU will still have to meet EU basic requirements, such as the EU's ban on beef from animals treated with growth hormones.

And then US businesses will sue for anti-competitive measures... /s

 

[SolidusDave]

There is indeed an irrational fear of GMOs in Europe.
But this isn't the US trying to convince unbelievers about science but to make it easier to sell their own products.
Otherwise this would be about encouraging farmers in Europe to use more GMOs instead.
Neither is really desired in the rather self-sustained food market in the EU so I guess that's why the US needs to strong-arm it in the first place.

 

[Dennis]

Oh please, this conflict is not about pro or anti science.

Washington wanted the EU to replace its precautionary consumer safety principle by the liberal US approach of permitting foodstuffs until risks are proven

That is the two principles battling it out here.

 

[Hamster Plugin]

I'm more worried about that "corporations suing governments" thing. That's some shit.

 

[cartesian]

More here:
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/may/01/leaked-ttip-documents-cast-doubt-on-eu-us-trade-deal

This is the worst bit of all, in my opinion. US businesses should have no legal entitlement to influence EU regulatory processes. This is a vast, sweeping provision and the very principle of seems so anti-democratic that I am disturbed the EU hasn't flatly rejected it out of hand.

You can have a free trade area without giving corporations legal entitlements to sue governments for passing laws they don't like. Corporations must accept the variable winds of democratic law-making and simply factor-in a degree of risk into their business plans.

 

[Baron Doggystyle von Woof]

There will probably be a referendum in the Netherlands as well.

TTIP is shady as fuck and seems to only benefit the USA which is a plutocracy. Therefor can't be trusted.

 

[spekkeh]

Europe's anti-GMO hysteria is an embarrassment.

True. Though not as embarrassing as what the US calls food.

 

[Shiggy]

There will probably be a referendum in the Netherlands as well.

TTIP is shady as fuck and seems to only benefit the USA which is a plutocracy. Therefor can't be trusted.

Can you guys maybe get a referendum to stop CETA? That has the same bullshit.

 

[g0tm1lk]

True. Though not as embarrassing as what the US calls food.

DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMN.

 

[Brohan]

Can you guys maybe get a referendum to stop CETA? That has the same bullshit.

I think the referendum is about both.

Edit: https://ttip-referendum.nl

 

[Saint of Killers]

Leaked: http://www.ttip-leaks.org/

 

[gcubed]

I'm more worried about that "corporations suing governments" thing. That's some shit.

Why? Why do people get their panties in a bunch about this of all things? Corporations have been able to sue governments for a LONG time.

 

[oti]

Europe's anti-GMO hysteria is an embarrassment.

lol

It's quite fascinating to see someone thinking "let's test things first before we sell it to people" is anti-science.

 

[F1Fan]

Europe's anti-GMO hysteria is an embarrassment.

What's an embarrassment is the USA government pursuit of forcing this issue on another government. So much for free will and freedom to self determination the US like to say.

Looking at the obesity epidemic in the USA and their low life expectancy, is it not a surprise that we don't want to try that shit.

Really anything that USA proposes around food, should be avoided at all cost. Your track record regarding food is awful.

 

[Roland_Gunner]

lol

It's quite fascinating to see someone thinking "let's test things first before we sell it to people" is anti-science.

GMO foods have been tested for years without any issues being found. Testing something over and over on the off-chance you get a different result is pretty damn anti-science.

 

[F1Fan]

GMO foods have been tested for years without any issues being found. Testing something over and over on the off-chance you get a different result is pretty damn anti-science.

But why are you forcing us then to accept it if we don't want it?

TTIP should be about allowing trade, where it is needed. If we don't want it or need it, why are you guys pushing things forward. Same thing would apply to the EU.