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Poor AMD performance with DOOM.

T

TSM

Member
lyrick said:
The way it was done currently seems like a thinly veiled TWIMTBP/Gaming Evolved title, only instead of having specific options that are essentially hardware vendor exclusive the entire base game. The way this release has created the title features hitches specific to an entire vendor with owners of the other hardware trying to guess what to disable to get the performance that they should be getting.
Click to expand...

This essentially boils down to "AMD and Intel can't be bothered to work on their OpenGL drivers so no one should be allowed to make software that uses OpenGL." That is a ridiculous stance. Pressure should be put on vendors to update their drivers, and not on devs to stop developing using it.

Also this game was in development long before Vulkan was even released. The fact that their Vulkan branch isn't even ready yet should tell you all tou need to know.
 
M

Meh3D

Member
Jedipottsy said:
AMD openGL drivers suck, plain and simple. This isn't an ID thing. Although because ID use openGL it might seem like it. Other openGL apps/games from other developers have similar issues on AMD hardware. Such that we won't buy AMD cards at our work because majority of the software we run is openGL.
Click to expand...

What software? We've had more problems with NVidia than AMD on Autocad/Cinema4D. You're making a bunch of generalizations here.

There is a lot that goes on when it comes to developing software. It's rare that there is a single issue at the root, normally it's many issues contributing to the result. "It's their OpenGL driver" is similar to the "lazy dev" comment. It's ignorant of the matter.

I'm more inclined to believe that something went wrong and a fix is being worked on simply because the system requirements put the 970 and 290 on par which is about right yet not what we're seeing at launch.
 
lyrick

lyrick

Member
TSM said:
This essentially boils down to "AMD and Intel can't be bothered to work on their OpenGL drivers so no one should be allowed to make software that uses OpenGL." That is a ridiculous stance. Pressure should be put on vendors to update their drivers, and not on devs to stop developing using it.

Also this game was in development long before Vulkan was even released. The fact that their Vulkan branch isn't even ready yet should tell you all tou need to know.
Click to expand...

Or simply put: id released a game that was specifically tailored to a single vendor without being transparent about about it.
 
T

TSM

Member
lyrick said:
Or simply put: id released a game that was specifically tailored to a single vendor without being transparent about about it.
Click to expand...

ID has always used OpenGL. Every single game they have released since hardware accelleration came into play. How do you get any more transparent? If OpenGL support is important to you, then it's on the consumer to buy a card that has good support for it. You are essentially blaming them for AMD and Intel's shortcomings.
 
R

riflen

Member
I imagine that they guys and gals at id are well aware that their OGL path is not as fast on AMD hardware. I'm sure they reached out to both GPU vendors during development, as they've always done with past games. But the game has been in development for years and Vulkan released a few months ago. The Doom launch date will have been set for a long time.
I'd say it pretty fucking great support for them to release a Vulkan renderer for this game. But of course, we can't have nice things, so some people are always going to complain whatever they do.
 
Adry9

Adry9

Member
Anyone playing this on a 7950? I'd like to know what kind of settings would I need to play this at 1080p/60fps.
 
lyrick

lyrick

Member
TSM said:
ID has always used OpenGL. Every single game they have released since hardware accelleration came into play. How do you get any more transparent? If OpenGL support is important to you, then it's on the consumer to buy a card that has good support for it. You are essentially blaming them for AMD and Intel's shortcomings.
Click to expand...

Yeah, blame the consumer for not knowing that id Software was going to use an API release that has only been certified by a single vendor and base their performance and recommended specs around that single vendor. You should blame the consumer in spite of both the Alpha and the Beta tests performing great on the other vendors hardware. Even Dooms recommend System requirements only show a R9 290 or a GTX970, despite a R9 290 getting nowhere near the performance of a 970 in the games current state.

Nowhere is it shown that an OpenGL 4.5 compliant card is recommended to the consumer anywhere. Consumers should not be forced to know the inner workings of a Dev Studios hardware leanings before purchasing a game or hardware, that's Bullshit.

Also note that the company's name is id,
GEYl71T5.jpeg
Click to expand...
Not ID
 
D

diaspora

Member
lyrick said:
Yeah, blame the consumer for not knowing that id Software was going to use an API release that has only been certified by a single vendor and base their performance and recommended specs around that single vendor. You should blame the consumer in spite of both the Alpha and the Beta tests performing great on the other vendors hardware. Even Dooms recommend System requirements only show a R9 290 or a GTX970, despite a R9 290 getting nowhere near the performance of a 970 in the games current state.

Nowhere is it shown that an OpenGL 4.5 compliant card is recommended to the consumer anywhere. Consumers should not be forced to know the inner workings of a Dev Studios hardware leanings before purchasing a game or hardware, that's Bullshit.

Also note that is company's name is id, Not ID
Click to expand...
Spell-check will do that in fairness.
 
T

TSM

Member
AMD is over a year past the OpenGL 4.5 spec being released as Durante has pointed out. AMD's customers are seeing poor OpenGL support for id's latest game. AMD customer's saw poor OpenGL support for id's previous game, and the one before that. Luckily Vulkan may break the cycle, because it's pretty clear AMD won't at this point.

It's amazing that in some people's world that Nvidia actually making an effort to give good OpenGL support means that AMD gets to pass the buck for their poor support to an unrelated developer.
 
D

Durante

Member
It's amazing how far people will go to blame a company using a standard on politics.

What is the argument really, that AMD's OpenGL driver doesn't suck? Well, I've worked with various OpenGL implementations but don't take my word for it -- you don't need to.
Or is it that it's NVidia's fault or id's fault that AMD's OpenGL driver sucks?
 
E

Easy_D

never left the stone age
Durante said:
It's amazing how far people will go to blame a company using a standard on politics.

What is the argument really, that AMD's OpenGL driver doesn't suck? Well, I've worked with various OpenGL but don't take my word for it -- you don't need to.
Or is it that it's NVidia's fault or id's fault that AMD's OpenGL driver sucks?
Click to expand...

I actually was like this and thought it was Frontier's fault that Supercruise mode in Elite ran like shit on AMD cards and expected them to fix it in a patch. But nah, it just happened to take AMD 6 months to fix a driver regression. There's literally no reason to be "loyal" to a GPU manufacturer, or any company, you buy a product, you expect that shit to work right and the company that manufactures it should, in most cases, be held responsible.

Granted, even on an AMD card I generally see the OpenGL plugins in both Dolphin and PCSX2 do better work than their DX counterparts, but that clearly boils down more to the coders of the respective emulators than the driver. It's kind of a shame though, since the OpenGL plugins for both seem to be quite a bit more accurate at rendering certain effects

Edit: People, don't use the damned beta as a proper measurement, that shit didn't even enable all the effects from what I read. Also the beta ran like shit on my 280X, so there's that, too. Not some Nvidia conspiracy where they moneyhatted id to make the final release run like shit on the competitors GPUs, hell, I don't even know if Nvidia cares about AMD considering their respective marketshares :lol.
 
VlaudTheImpaler

VlaudTheImpaler

tl;dr
Durante said:
It's amazing how far people will go to blame a company using a standard on politics.

What is the argument really, that AMD's OpenGL driver doesn't suck? Well, I've worked with various OpenGL but don't take my word for it -- you don't need to.
Or is it that it's NVidia's fault or id's fault that AMD's OpenGL driver sucks?
Click to expand...

This is why I am not pointing fingers. This crap could go on for ages and it seems like it has. But guess what, nothing has gotten fixed and it's the consumer who has had to pay for it. Here are my previous comments on the matter and what I think should be done.

VlaudTheImpaler said:
Then they should feel the pain and not he consumer. My point still stands.

I also disagree on the not seeing any gains if they where to invest into their OpenGL drivers more.
Click to expand...

VlaudTheImpaler said:
Yeah, but so are the consumers but not in the way that we should. It would be better for us to know and not buy rather than to buy and then find out. It would be more painful for AMD and developers to have the poor performance warned of on the marketplaces so that consumers are informed. This way, it doesn't matter who's really to blame it puts equal amounts of fire under the butts of whomever it pertains to invest in the issue if they want the marketshare and if they want to save face.

No need for all of this conspiracy blaming crap. It's going to be impossible to know who exactly is to blame. What we know are the facts that AMD cards have trouble with this and most OpenGL games. Period. People should know before they buy.
Click to expand...

VlaudTheImpaler said:
I am not taking any sides here because I think it is impossible to know who is to blame. I have seen people go back and forth on this and from what little research I've done it seems like this "back and forth blaming" has gone on for ages.

My point is to implement a system where it doesn't matter who is to blame. It equally motivates whomever that would be, without having to know who it is, to fix the issues and it protects the consumer from this ridiculous issue more than they are. Which in my case and many others was very little.
Click to expand...
 
Adry9

Adry9

Member
Durante said:
Yeah, I wasn't referring to you specifically with that post.

I agree that people should be as informed as possible, but then the question really boils down to who is responsible for doing the the informing.
Click to expand...

Well that should be games med... yeah never mind.
 
VlaudTheImpaler

VlaudTheImpaler

tl;dr
Durante said:
Yeah, I wasn't referring to you specifically with that post.

I agree that people should be as informed as possible, but then the question really boils down to who is responsible for doing the the informing.
Click to expand...

I don't know man. I just feel like something needs to change. Especially if this has been going on this long. I think it would be nice if the devs had the balls to do it but it might take the marketplaces enforcing that the devs at least test their code on whatever cards they recommend when advertising their game and then maybe test it themselves? Don't stores already have some sort of vetting process?

Maybe someone could start a third party vetting/certification company that would certify that a card works to a certain standard when playing a certain game and then give it a stamp of approval? The game makers could then advertise their game with the stamp. As long as they are rigorous with their testing it could make consumers and therefore game makers see that stamp as valuable and want to have it on their game in the marketplace.

I'm just hypothesizing here. Smarter people than me could probably figure something out.
 
C

Captain Chaos

Member
Game is running sweet on my 290x at locked 50fps due to vsync being on. Pretty much everything maxed out apart from Shadows - they must be on low.
 
E

exmachina64

Banned
Easy_D said:
I actually was like this and thought it was Frontier's fault that Supercruise mode in Elite ran like shit on AMD cards and expected them to fix it in a patch. But nah, it just happened to take AMD 6 months to fix a driver regression. There's literally no reason to be "loyal" to a GPU manufacturer, or any company, you buy a product, you expect that shit to work right and the company that manufactures it should, in most cases, be held responsible.

Granted, even on an AMD card I generally see the OpenGL plugins in both Dolphin and PCSX2 do better work than their DX counterparts, but that clearly boils down more to the coders of the respective emulators than the driver. It's kind of a shame though, since the OpenGL plugins for both seem to be quite a bit more accurate at rendering certain effects

Edit: People, don't use the damned beta as a proper measurement, that shit didn't even enable all the effects from what I read. Also the beta ran like shit on my 280X, so there's that, too. Not some Nvidia conspiracy where they moneyhatted id to make the final release run like shit on the competitors GPUs, hell, I don't even know if Nvidia cares about AMD considering their respective marketshares :lol.
Click to expand...

What does "held responsible" even mean in this context?
 
E

Easy_D

never left the stone age
exmachina64 said:
What does "held responsible" even mean in this context?
Click to expand...

Er, maybe "held responsible" isn't the proper way to say what I meant, but the manufacturer is responsible for their product working as well as they are capable of, right? I mean, ultimately, I could play The New Order just fine and I expect the same will be true with Doom, but even so Wolfenstein still had a lot of hickups that I'd rather be without and that's something only AMD is capable of fixing, not the end user, nor the developer, since it's their driver that makes up the underlying performance issue.

Edit: If we take the Elite example, most AMD users were pretty much convinced it was Frontier's fault that parts of the game ran like ass on AMD GPUs (And I'm talking continous drops down to 5 FPS here) and so they focused their attention pretty much soley on them. Six months later AMD fixes the driver issue. I'd like to believe it would have been a lot faster than 6 months if people had aimed their attention towards AMD as they should have in the first place.
 
U

Unknown Soldier

Member
Easy_D said:
Edit: People, don't use the damned beta as a proper measurement, that shit didn't even enable all the effects from what I read. Also the beta ran like shit on my 280X, so there's that, too. Not some Nvidia conspiracy where they moneyhatted id to make the final release run like shit on the competitors GPUs, hell, I don't even know if Nvidia cares about AMD considering their respective marketshares :lol.
Click to expand...

Nvidia is well known for not using moneyhats. What they actually do is 'embed' graphics programmers in the dev teams of big studios to help them program games, making sure the games run well on Nvidia hardware. Naturally, if the game dev asks this embedded programmer to help them with a problem on non-Nvidia hardware, they will refuse. I mean, this person is an employee of Nvidia, why the fuck would they help with the competitor's product? Not to mention it's highly unlikely the Nvidia programmer would know anything about how to program for a competitor's product!

AMD is too broke to be able to afford traveling graphics programmers, and Intel just doesn't care since the purpose of Intel graphics isn't gaming. So Nvidia wins by default, and they don't even need to do anything underhanded, unless you think helping developers make games work better on their products is underhanded. Which some AMD fans do.
 
T

Turin Turambar

Member
Ac3kas said:
Quite an unbelievable difference, having a hard time remembering game where difference in performance was so huge.
Click to expand...

Yep, that's why I believe this time there isn't one party to blame, but two. AMD for having subpar Opengl support, and it seems id hasn't bothered in optimized their game for AMD cards.
We had before previous games like Rage or Wolfenstein with problems or worse performance, but this is way in another level, which is why I'm trying to rationalize it with that explanation. I can't believe they spent months optimizing the game and got that.
 
NeoRaider

NeoRaider

Member
lordfuzzybutt said:
I have never seen anything like this, that gap. AMD's OpenGl driver cannot be that subpar right?
Click to expand...

Everyone with AMD GPU is saying that game worked much better for them in the beta, compared to this. I also tried MP open beta (R9 280X) and had no problems with the performance.

What they (developers) did here, and why they did it is beyond me.
 
D

DSN2K

Member
that digital Foundry comparison is shocking, I'm not even gonna bother trying to play the game currently with my 290...This is not on AMD imo, ID have done something.
 
T

tuxfool

Banned
The game works well at medium settings for both. At higher settings it then becomes a problem, particularly the particle effects and shadow quality. The other settings have lesser effects.
 
J3nga

J3nga

Member
https://twitter.com/CatalystMaker/status/732285641342390272
I hate when they say something like this: "in the next little while", WTF that supposed to mean? Now that I've played few levels(having 390x onboard) and having dips to below 40fps, then watching this video and realising my GPU performs worse than 970 made me somewhat anxious.Not cool.
Generally speaking, any game that comes out nowadays has performance issues on start(sometimes even after, yes, Arkham Knight, talking about you) either on NV, either AMD or on both. You're waiting for the game to be released for god knows how long and then devs like: "you've long enough for us to release this game and as a reward for your support and patience here's a shitty performance". F**k this s**t.
 
W

Waaghals

Member
NeoRaider said:
Everyone with AMD GPU is saying that game worked much better for them in the beta, compared to this. I also tried MP open beta (R9 280X) and had no problems with the performance.

What they (developers) did here, and why they did it is beyond me.
Click to expand...

The game was locked to medium in the beta.
id is saying it is the higher settings that kill the framerate.

That is not an impossible explanation. If you buy it, however, is up to you.
 
NeoRaider

NeoRaider

Member
Waaghals said:
The game was locked to medium in the beta.
id is saying it is the higher settings that kill the framerate.

That is not an impossible explanation. If you buy it, however, is up to you.
Click to expand...

So higher settings are killing the framerate only for AMD GPUs?
 
A

atbigelow

Member
Running a fairly old card at this point (270X) but it's held up well for most games. No Ultra settings for anything except like, Alien Isolation.

Definitely doesn't run Doom worth a shit at the lowest possible settings.
 
D

dogen

Member
Turin Turambar said:
it seems id hasn't bothered in optimized their game for AMD cards.
Click to expand...

What are you basing that on? Every AMD gpu other than the hawaii series performs fine.


atbigelow said:
Running a fairly old card at this point (270X) but it's held up well for most games. No Ultra settings for anything except like, Alien Isolation.

Definitely doesn't run Doom worth a shit at the lowest possible settings.
Click to expand...

Really? I found a video of the game running decently on a 270X. 45-70 fps with most options set to ultra.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nps5_tVMjvo
 
W

Waaghals

Member
NeoRaider said:
So higher settings are killing the framerate only for AMD GPUs?
Click to expand...


That was my understanding.

I didn't play the alpha/beta, but as far as I know it was locked to medium, and locked to 60fps.

AMD cards might have performed every bit as badly there, as it does now.
It would be impossible to tell given the limitations of the beta.
 
E

Easy_D

never left the stone age
jett said:
It would need a 200% performance increase to make a 390 equal to 970.
Click to expand...

Shouldn't the 290 be equal to the 970? The 280X is about equal, or slightly better at times, than the 960. Jesus AMD, invest in some OpenGL drivers already, I want to be able to play The New Order without framedrops at least once and I ain't upgrading any time soon so (And my 280X is doing great otherwise)

Edit: Regarding your other post:

jett said:
What the fuck is this. I'm seeing literally a 50fps difference. Fuck you id, I refuse to believe this is just a driver issue.
Click to expand...

It certainly can be, Elite Dangerous had points during which the FPS dropped as low as 5-15 FPS (From an unlocked 100 FPS, I might add), everyone blamed the dev, turns out it was all on AMD due to an unforseen driver regression.
 
Adry9

Adry9

Member
jett said:
It would need a 200% performance increase to make a 390 equal to 970.
Click to expand...

They say 35%. Only tested on a 390.

Testing conducted by AMD Performance Labs as of May 16, 2016 on the AMD Radeon™ R9 390, on a test system comprising Intel i7 5960X CPU, 16GB memory, AMD RSCE 16.5.2 and AMD RSCE 16.5.2.1, Windows 10 x64 using the game Doom™. PC Manufacturers may vary configurations, yielding different results. At 1920x1080 AMD RSCE 16.5.2 scored 70.29 and AMD RSCE 16.5.2.1 scored 95.11 on the AMD Radeon™ R9 390, which is 35% faster performance
Click to expand...

http://support.amd.com/en-us/kb-art...e-crimson-edition-16.5.2.1-release-notes.aspx


Most of their GPUs have performance issues and they only address the ones on the 390? Fuck off AMD.
 
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