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[Hubb]

His decision was NOT for the good of Ellie though. It's also why I think their relationship has deteriorated over the years.

Ellie isn't his daughter. She's a person who makes HIM feel a little better after the fact he lost his daughter.
It's evil because he gives a shit more about how HE feels more so than Ellie herself.

That lie is protecting himself because he knows it was bullshit and it's against what Ellie wanted.

First off how do we know his decision was not good for Ellie. All we know is that she could either be A) dead or B) whatever happens in the coming game. It is hard to argue someone is worse off then dead (though I get it is possible).

Secondly, Joel makes Ellie feel good too. She cared about Joel and wanted to be with him.

Third, we have no idea what Joel is actually thinking. I'm guessing in his mind he is doing this for Ellie and not for himself. Even if it is obvious he is doing it for himself too.

Forth, Joel didn't know Ellie wanted to die at that point.

Fifth, just because a 14 year old wants to die, do we let them?

 

[Basketball]

Joel was a damn good character
all his decisions made perfect sense,would have done the same

minus the flamethrower on the doctors

 

[Kinyou]

What i dont get is why people ask to be able to shoot Joel. Even if you see him as the big bad villain it would be such a cliche ridden way to end their relationship like from a pulpy 80s movie.

As if the only way to end it would be a bullet.

 

[Unaha-Closp]

I am so in for an Ellie led Part II. I could not get more in if I wanted to. I am all out of outside to put inside for this. In other words. Hype.

 

[Big_Al]

Man this discussion is really getting me excited about where TLOU2 could go

I just hope it's not 'talking to ghost Joel' throughout the entire game. That would be boring as fuck or at least a bit too obvious. I'd like to see how an older Joel/Ellie actually interact with each other whilst on another journey.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Not to be difficult but that article doesn't back your point in the least. Did somebody that worked on The Last of Us or in a management position say they changed her look because she looked like Ellen Paige?

I'm not disputing that she looked like her. I have eyes

You generally risk lawsuits for using likeness without permission.

Given Page spoke up and given the look did change I'm comfortable putting two and two together.

 

[Gbraga]

There must be something I'm missing about The Last of Us, ever since it came out, and I never figured it out, even after multiple playthroughs.

So, ok, let's assume best case scenario here, cure is developed, everyone works together holding hands and singing John Lennon, no one comes for the Fireflies for this, they don't use it as a power play, everything is beautiful.

How the fuck are they getting it to people in other continents? Is it stated somewhere that the US is the last place on earth with living people? I can't help but think "bullshit" every time I read something like "save humanity" "the world" or whatever. I don't live in the US, so in this hypothetical scenario, I'd be fucked in this "saved world".

Either I'm an idiot and missed something major, or people are actually ignoring that their argument doesn't even make sense when they use phrases like "the future of humanity".

 

[jg4xchamp]

Would have preferred a new cast of characters, but whatevs.

 

[broscientific]

Playing a video game is an entirely different way to experience a story than say, reading a book or sitting still and watching a movie.

You control the flow of the story, the speed of the action and the pace of the emotional investment you are prepared to make.

There is nothing bland about it.

What? He said the fact that you base your decision on what game to play based on if you share gender, age, ethnicity, etc. was bland, not choosing to play a video game over a book or a movie.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

I didn't say he was insane. I didn't say there wasn't a bond.

I'm just saying that if we decide that the surgery on Ellie had no chance of success (and that Joel would have logically deduced this), then the choice he makes at the end of the game is basically the same choice he makes when he decides to go after the community during Winter, which would be redundant storytelling.

See, I don't view the drama of the binary "SAVE THE WORLD / SAVE ELLIE" as interesting, because that's such a boring way to look at the situation and not what the game was even about.

The cure was a MacGuffin, a device to get Joel and Ellie from place to place to advance the plot, it was not THE plot or point of the story. The drama was not from thinking Joel was going to make a choice to save the world, because Joel would never do that in a 1000 years, the drama was Joel having the chance to take agency and not have the same situation repeat itself with being helpless at the whim of an organization that demands the sacrifice of his loved one.

 

[Shredderi]

Joel was a damn good character
all his decisions made perfect sense,would have done the same

minus the flamethrower on the doctors

You used a fucking flamethrower on them? Your timeline was definitely the darkest timeline and Joel was indeed a psycho villain.

Then don't play the fucking game. Simple solution to BS issue.

This. Seems like an exceptionally easy solution to a game that does not seem to be up this individual's alley.

 

[KiraXD]

A main female lead on a AAA game. Oh the comments will be delicious.

EDIT: People seem to be misinterpreting my post.

There will be lots of crying about the fact that its a female lead, is what I meant. I don't get it either, but there will.

What even is this post? Faux outrage, instigating? Stealth shitpost? Seriously what is the point of saying this? I dont hear anyone complaining about it, most people here are perfectly fine with a AAA game having a female lead (like others already stated, chloe in uncharted, Aloy in horizon, to name a
Couple that people are fine with)

In fact im almost positive a lot of people here WANTED TLOU part 2 to star Ellie and the fallout of everything from part 1. Stop assuming everyone here are douchebags.

 

[TimeEffect]

What i dont get is why people ask to be able to shoot Joel. Even if you see him as the big bad villain it would be such a cliche ridden way to end their relationship like from a pulpy 80s movie.

As if the only way to end it woukd be a bullet.

I remember that blatant scene in the trailers for LoU 1.

It'd be such a shit thing to do. And it makes no sense. Not only did they go through a lot, but theyve been with each other for like 5 years. As if Joel could say or do anything to make Ellie want to kill him.

 

[SapphiCine]

Fuck yeah.

 

[theWB27]

Uhhhh, what? Joel specifically asked Ellie if she just wanted to go back to his brothers base before they were captured and sent to the hospital. Their father/daughter relationship was specifically cemented at the end of winter, well after Joel was wanting to pass her off to Tommy because he was afraid of opening himself up to such a close relationship to Ellie, something Ellie was looking for and Joel was trying to shut down during the first part of Fall.

So... where are you getting this "He just wanted to pass her off", because at the end of the game that was not his goal/intentions.

Ellie isn't her daughter in blood... but you know adopted people are family and love each other, right?

How long had they been together when we first got the Joel's brother? It was long enough for Ellie to see, what she thought, was a bond. Joel clearly thought of as a mission he wanted to get rid of. To Ellie...she was already at a place Joel was refusing to get to.

So...Im not wrong with what I posted. I really don't understand why you jumped to the end of the game when you know exactly what point I was referring to.

The lie makes his motivations selfish. The lie was everything. It solidified to Ellie that this dude still doesn't have the guts to be real with her. Stop skipping over how significant that lie is.

 

[Hubb]

There must be something I'm missing about The Last of Us, ever since it came out, and I never figured it out, even after multiple playthroughs.

So, ok, let's assume best case scenario here, cure is developed, everyone works together holding hands and singing John Lennon, no one comes for the Fireflies for this, they don't use it as a power play, everything is beautiful.

How the fuck are they getting it to people in other continents? Is it stated somewhere that the US is the last place on earth with living people? I can't help but think "bullshit" every time I read something like "save humanity" "the world" or whatever. I don't live in the US, so in this hypothetical scenario, I'd be fucked in this "saved world".

Either I'm an idiot and missed something major, or people are actually ignoring that their argument doesn't even make sense when they use phrases like "the future of humanity".

There is really no way to know, I am sure they could take a boat/make one eventually. But how adjusted are the people on other continents. Are they going to believe that someone found a cure? Really it is only there to make the choice a compelling one. If you take away the possibility of a cure, then there is no question which choice I'd take (well I'd do the same as Joel either way). That and a cure isn't even the right word. Anyone who has had their brain fucked for even a few days is going to be too far gone. This would have to be a less than 24 hour intake to actually do anything.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

How long had they been together when we first got the Joel's brother? It was long enough for Ellie to see, what she thought, was a bond. Joel clearly thought of as a mission he wanted to get rid of. To Ellie...she was already at a place Joel was refusing to get to.

So...Im not wrong with what I posted. I really don't understand why you jumped to the end of the game when you know exactly what point I was referring to.

The lie makes his motivations selfish. The lie was everything. It solidified to Ellie that this dude still doesn't have the guts to be real with her. Stop skipping over how significant that lie is.

And then the second half of the game happened...

You're ignoring literally the entire second half of the game.

Shit, literally the end of Tommy's place shows Joel coming around to Ellie and specifically not handing her off to someone else. Not to mention all of Winter, and the entire climax of the game.

 

[ForsakenLotus]

You generally risk lawsuits for using likeness without permission.

Given Page spoke up and given the look did change I'm comfortable putting two and two together.

I doubt Ellen Paige would have sued one Sony owned studio for making a character who looks like her while she had a game releasing the same year that was exclusive to Sony.

Not to mention Ellie still resembles Ellen Paige, just younger and slightly different features.

 

[Keihart]

Shocking!

Ofcourse she is, the first game now becomes basically an origins story.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

I hope there is another winter switcheroo.

 

[SomTervo]

And he

Spoiler

ages 10 years in the game

- so?

I'm not a female, nor am I a teenager - so that makes me not relate to Ellie and makes me uninterested in playing as her. Noctis is a male - which I am also - but I'm not 20. But I love anime, fantasy games and action games, so therefore he's a very relatable, likeable character to me. Ellie is a whiny, stubborn, too-cool-for-school, grungy teenager that has a chip on her shoulder and if I played The Last of Us Part II, I'd be forced to only play as her.

That doesn't seem very interesting, fun, worthwhile or a good way to spend my entertainment time.

> her superficial character traits have nothing to do with the depth of the story or nuance of her portrayal
> what makes you think she'll be similar in part 2 to how she was in part 1? If anything she seems completely different: full adult psycho rather than trying to be a normal teen/kid
> must be pretty low on empathy if you can't fit into someone from a different background's shoes

 

[Heckler456]

There must be something I'm missing about The Last of Us, ever since it came out, and I never figured it out, even after multiple playthroughs.

So, ok, let's assume best case scenario here, cure is developed, everyone works together holding hands and singing John Lennon, no one comes for the Fireflies for this, they don't use it as a power play, everything is beautiful.

How the fuck are they getting it to people in other continents? Is it stated somewhere that the US is the last place on earth with living people? I can't help but think "bullshit" every time I read something like "save humanity" "the world" or whatever. I don't live in the US, so in this hypothetical scenario, I'd be fucked in this "saved world".

Either I'm an idiot and missed something major, or people are actually ignoring that their argument doesn't even make sense when they use phrases like "the future of humanity".

That's kind of the point, I think.

First, it might just be there to give Ellie a reason to die, and thus to give Joel a reason to prevent that. Definite possibility.

But I think it also makes sense as "Marlene's Ellie", you know? The thing that drives her, and gives her and the fireflies "hope", and thus a reason to live. Which is something Marlene will fight for just as hard as Joel will fight for Ellie.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Motivations? His motivations were entirely self serving, just like Kratos. Their situations actually have a lot of paralells. They both had family murdered, and it turned them into monsters. Yes, Joel had to kill people to survive, but he did so in unnecessarily brutal ways, like Kratos. Not only that, but he ALWAYS acted in a way that was self serving, again like Kratos. The end of the game, he made his way through the laboratory, going through every one, stopping at nothing to get what he wanted, even though it meant fucking up a chance to help heal humanity, all because he couldn't cope with the loss of his daughter and needed Ellie to fill that roll (you can again draw parallels to Kratos in GOW III trying to protect Pandora).

Unlike Kratos, in the end Joel did what he did throughout the entire game, and acted in ways that only benefited him, while the K man "killed" himself and gave hope back to humanity. And here we are in a world where everyone praises the character of Joel when he is as subtle as a flying brick and as deep as a kiddie pool. Great performance by Troy Baker though.

I feel like people constantly judge Joel's actions based on how they'd react in the real world rather than the type of world he's in. Who in the hell wouldn't be a bit selfish in the situation that they're in? Everyone there is doing something to get something. Let's just look at Marlene. She's only willing to give Joel and Tess their weapons back if they take Ellie where she needs them to take her. Tommy and his crew were the only ones that didn't seem to live like that. And it's because they were basically off on their own and out of the grind of it all. But for those that were outside of an area like that, it seems to be the only way to survive. Both Tess and Joel are hardasses because they've lived in that world for years and know how things work. So, it's strange to somehow view Joel as the bad guy for basically playing by the rules in the world.

Anyway, i'm reminded of what Neil and Bruce said in one interview when they spoke about the ending. They talked about how controversial it was with focus testers and how they were routinely asked to give an option of how you wanted it to end. But they noted that people with children overwhelmingly sided with Joel and had no issue with his decision. That doesn't necessarily make it the right decision. But this isn't some black and white situation that you and others are trying to make it out to be.

 

[Unaha-Closp]

There must be something I'm missing about The Last of Us, ever since it came out, and I never figured it out, even after multiple playthroughs.

So, ok, let's assume best case scenario here, cure is developed, everyone works together holding hands and singing John Lennon, no one comes for the Fireflies for this, they don't use it as a power play, everything is beautiful.

How the fuck are they getting it to people in other continents? Is it stated somewhere that the US is the last place on earth with living people? I can't help but think "bullshit" every time I read something like "save humanity" "the world" or whatever. I don't live in the US, so in this hypothetical scenario, I'd be fucked in this "saved world".

Either I'm an idiot and missed something major, or people are actually ignoring that their argument doesn't even make sense when they use phrases like "the future of humanity".

I imagine you would worry about that after you get the cure so you would go around saying 'we can save Humanity' and mean it entirely at the time you are saying it. In your mind you think 'hey imagine the good we could do if we were cured' and work from there. I don't think you are supposed to take it literally that they want to save humanity - they want to save themselves and their friends. That is a start in their mind I am sure. Don't think you missed anything - the story was the relationship between Joel and Ellie really and not saving the human race.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

> her superficial character traits have nothing to do with the depth of the story or nuance of her portrayal
> what makes you think she'll be similar in part 2 to how she was in part 1? If anything she seems completely different: full adult psycho rather than trying to be a normal teen/kid
> must be pretty low on empathy if you can't fit into someone from a different background's shoes

Ouch, and true. Who gives a fuck how old she is or if it's a she or if it's unrelatable. It's her story and her journey. We always experience it through the eye of the creator and the characters no matter how much we think we can fill the character's shoes.

 

[TimeEffect]

How long had they been together when we first got the Joel's brother? It was long enough for Ellie to see, what she thought, was a bond. Joel clearly thought of as a mission he wanted to get rid of. To Ellie...she was already at a place Joel was refusing to get to.

So...Im not wrong with what I posted. I really don't understand why you jumped to the end of the game when you know exactly what point I was referring to.

The lie makes his motivations selfish. The lie was everything. It solidified to Ellie that this dude still doesn't have the guts to be real with her. Stop skipping over how significant that lie is.

Who cares if it was just a job to him? They only really bonded after Ellie told Joel her feelings, and Joel took her himself.

And then Joel got ill and Ellie took care of him. How is it selfish to save someone you care for? I don't get it at all, you guys act as if he solely treated her as a possession.

This is what Joel does. There is no reason for him to immediately view her as anything other than an escort mission. You are completely forgetting that Ellie was the one who needed Joel first. And then Joel needed her, and Ellie was glad to save him because they care for each other.

Marlene takes away Ellie, doesn't give Joel any chance of saying goodbye, and this triggers him.

I fail to see why the lie mattered. It's clear their relationship is a lot stronger than that, and there is no reason at all to think she has to kill Joel. Joel isn't even that protective in this trailer. Ellie is grown up now but he's there for her and seems to listen to her. They are as strong as ever.

Joel lied to a kid just like any parent would. He's protecting her. He reversed a decision that was made for her by someone else, but never did he take away her agency in wanting to stay.

This is all besides the point that a vast majority of gamers played as Joel and wanted to save Ellie. Everybody views them as a pair and loves the both of them.

To turn Joel into some villain makes zero sense considering the relationship of the characters and the relationship of the fans to the characters

 

[theWB27]

And then the second half of the game happened...

You're ignoring literally the entire second half of the game.

Shit, literally the end of Tommy's place shows Joel coming around to Ellie and specifically not handing her off to someone else. Not to mention all of Winter, and the entire climax of the game.

That's the significance of the LIE. The whole second part of the game happened and Joel still lies. Bonds mean something to Ellie....you don't lie to people you care about. It still leaves that seed of doubt.

After everything we just went through you still have to lie to me.

Do people think the game ended the way it did just because?

 

[semiconscious]

Straight from druckmann's mouth:

Gay.

so who'm i supposed to believe: druckman, or my own lying eyes? ...

was unaware of his statement. all i can say (again) is that, going by a single in-game incident, no, i'm not ready to call ellie's sexual orientation. because, as with any other game, i'm going by what i see, in-game, & not by what someone says in an interview. hell, druckman could announce that joel's a jehovah's witness, or double-jointed, but, if there's no clear, conclusive indication of that in-game, so what?...

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

That's the significance of the LIE. The whole second part of the game happened and Joel still lies. Bonds mean something to Ellie....you don't lie to people you care about. It still leaves that seed of doubt.

After everything we just went through you still have to lie to me.

 

[SomTervo]

Perfect

 

[gkovacs314]

I'm cool with this change, per se.

But what is strange, is that it feels more like a forced political statement than a fluid storytelling device, like an executive order to be more PC. This is evident from the DLC of Uncharted. Don't be fooled, they are doing to be more PC, not because they want a female lead. This is bad type of feminism and it works against the females.

Imagine working in a meeting on the draft of the script and even suggesting to not choose a female lead? Is not socially appraisive nowadays. So, there is no arguing against it.

Everyone is using all types of media to manifest political views, more and more. Not that is something wrong with it, but kinda turn off the escapism of the gaming media. To the trained mind, you can easily spot this stances. Feels too forced.

I'll not support this, even being a feminist, because of the sense of a forced political agenda that puts female on a pity zone.

 

[Squalor]

Goddamn, I'm dying.

 

[Gbraga]

There is really no way to know, I am sure they could take a boat/make one eventually. But how adjusted are the people on other continents. Are they going to believe that someone found a cure? Really it is only there to make the choice a compelling one. If you take away the possibility of a cure, then there is no question which choice I'd take (well I'd do the same as Joel either way). That and a cure isn't even the right word. Anyone who has had their brain fucked for even a few days is going to be too far gone. This would have to be a less than 24 hour intake to actually do anything.

Right. There is no way this would "save" anything, really. Everything is far too gone.

This game isn't a fairy tale, there's no happily ever after to be found here. People make his decision way more polarizing than it really is when you think about it for more than 2 seconds.

It's a romanticized bet, Joel's no romantic.

I never once thought "wow, what a monster!" when playing the game, everything felt perfectly justified in context. Trying to paint Joel as a villain who needs to die is such a shallow view of that world and characters, to be honest.

That's kind of the point, I think.

First, it might just be there to give Ellie a reason to die, and thus to give Joel a reason to prevent that. Definite possibility.

But I think it also makes sense as "Marlene's Ellie", you know? The thing that drives her, and gives her and the fireflies "hope", and thus a reason to live. Which is something Marlene will fight for just as hard as Joel will fight for Ellie.

I imagine you would worry about that after you get the cure so you would go around saying 'we can save Humanity' and mean it entirely at the time you are saying it. In your mind you think 'hey imagine the good we could do if we were cured' and work from there. I don't think you are supposed to take it literally that they want to save humanity - they want to save themselves and their friends. That is a start in their mind I am sure. Don't think you missed anything - the story was the relationship between Joel and Ellie really and not saving the human race.

Oh, absolutely. I'm not questioning the characters' motives, only players' discussions.

It makes no sense to condemn Joel based on a ridiculously implausible scenario. You have to ignore all logic and context established throughout the game in order to come to the conclusion that there's any world to be saved here.

 

[Retsudo]

Then don't play the fucking game. Simple solution to BS issue.

Apparently it's not a simple solution. He has to come here and complain how the game isn't pandering to his tastes.

Just thinking of all the different kinds of leads i've enjoyed in games, i could care less about the race, colour, or shape of the character i'm role playing as. From men and women, to aliens of all colours and shapes who gives a fuck?

 

[Shredderi]

Lost my shit. Perfect.

 

[n0razi]

More bow and arrow stealth and less gunplay plz

 

[excelsiorlef]

That's the significance of the LIE. The whole second part of the game happened and Joel still lies. Bonds mean something to Ellie....you don't lie to people you care about. It still leaves that seed of doubt.

After everything we just went through you still have to lie to me.

Do people think the game ended the way it did just because?

Of course we do....

Like all the time

 

[Darryl M R]

What even is this post? Faux outrage, instigating? Stealth shitpost? Seriously what is the point of saying this? I dont hear anyone complaining about it, most people here are perfectly fine with a AAA game having a female lead (like others already stated, chloe in uncharted, Aloy in horizon, to name a
Couple that people are fine with)

In fact im almost positive a lot of people here WANTED TLOU part 2 to star Ellie and the fallout of everything from part 1. Stop assuming everyone here are douchebags.

We legit have posts in this thread talking about how they cannot relate to a young female protagonist while ignoring that trend AAA games have taken to cater to middle age white men.

It is not a stretch of anyone's imagination to predict comments, not just from GAF and GAF would not have the worst, claiming that choosing a female lead is pandering.

Let's not kid ourselves that there are a lot of insecure men out there that will comment on why Ellie is now the protagonist and not Joel. Claiming that this switch was unnecessary despite not knowing what direction Naughty Dog wanted to take this series during its inception.

Can we stop the trend of screaming "faux outrage" when these are very logical assumptions to make about the gaming community

FOR PROOF OF THIS SEE THIS POST:

I'm cool with this change, per se.

But what is strange, is that it feels more like a forced political statement than a fluid storytelling device, like an executive order to be more PC. This is evident from the DLC of Uncharted. Don't be fooled, they are doing to be more PC, not because they want a female lead. This is bad type of feminism and it works against the females.

Imagine working in a meeting on the draft of the script and even suggesting to not choose a female lead? Is not socially appraisive nowadays. So, there is no arguing against it.

Everyone is using all types of media to manifest political views, more and more. Not that is something wrong with it, but kinda turn off the escapism of the gaming media. To the trained mind, you can easily spot this stances. Feels too forced.

I'll not support this, even being a feminist, because of the sense of a forced political agenda that puts female on a pity zone.

 

[El-Pistolero]

I loved playing as Joel, so I am a little bit disappointed. Still, Ellie is a good protagonist, so there is that.

 

[CalamityPixel]

Ah sucks, wanted to do more shittery as Joel.

Will be good story wise but I don't want to be the one to call Joel out on his lies since I'm the one who lied as him in the first place.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I'm cool with this change, per se.

But what is strange, is that it feels more like a forced political statement than a fluid storytelling device, like an executive order to be more PC. This is evident from the DLC of Uncharted. Don't be fooled, they are doing to be more PC, not because they want a female lead. This is bad type of feminism and it works against the females.

Imagine working in a meeting on the draft of the script and even suggesting to not choose a female lead? Is not socially appraisive nowadays. So, there is no arguing against it.

Everyone is using all types of media to manifest political views, more and more. Not that is something wrong with it, but kinda turn off the escapism of the gaming media. To the trained mind, you can easily spot this stances. Feels too forced.

I'll not support this, even being a feminist, because of the sense of a forced political agenda that puts female on a pity zone.

What the fuck....

Ellie being the lead is a logical progression of the story.

 

[Deckard Chapel]

> her superficial character traits have nothing to do with the depth of the story or nuance of her portrayal
> what makes you think she'll be similar in part 2 to how she was in part 1? If anything she seems completely different: full adult psycho rather than trying to be a normal teen/kid
> must be pretty low on empathy if you can't fit into someone from a different background's shoes

I simply don't like Ellie. I don't like Pac-Man either - does that make me a bad person??

I feel like the only acceptable answer to most of the people in here is that I agree to play the game. it's like I'm being forced to decide to say "okay I'm going to play it", which I refuse to at this point.

 

[Basketball]

You used a fucking flamethrower on them? Your timeline was definitely the darkest timeline and Joel was indeed a psycho villain.

Bow and Arrow guy huh or maybe the revolver

 

[VDenter]

Makes sense,Joel by the end of this game will probably be Old Snake old. Assuming of course he does not get killed near the beginning of the game.

 

[The God]

so

1. Joel killed by the fireflies
2. Ellie goes on a path of revenge

sock it to me

 

[DAREALGUMMY]

Nah.



This. Joel is far from being a psycho. People use that word too much. It dilutes the actual meaning. Killing a lot of people does not make one into a psychopath. A messed up individual (among other things)? Absolutely. Even David wasn't a psychopath.

David? The guy who acts soft spoken and turns out be a pedophile, cannibal and who plans to kill Ellie in the end anyways David? Not a psycho at all.

I've always had the notion that Ellie's reaction in the conclusion of TLOU seemed to indicate that she was already aware of the truth (or perhaps had an inkling of it)

Regarding people saying Joel is a monster for not letting humanity have a cure for the virus: a huge point of the first game is that humanity has had its time. The world doesn't need humans. Humans destroy the world, destroy each other. Those giraffes were trapped in cages when humans were king, now they're free to roam nature and thrive.

Humanity doesn't need saving. And humanity itself does not exist as a quanitity of living humans; humanity is the true loving nature of Joel and Ellie's relationship. That is the real humanity, that's what's worth saving.

I agree with Joel's decision 100%. Even though you don't have to totally agree, I think people who see TLOU as a story where you play the "bad guy" are being incredibly shortsighted and morally absolute.

This makes his decision and lie all the worse. He knows the world is fucked so who cares? If Ellie knew, then lying about it makes him the same as everyone else. There is no loving nature of the relationship if he can't be honest with her. He never was straight up with her in the game and if she knows he lied, then she's going to resent him for what he did or just not telling the truth.

 

[Squalor]

I'm cool with this change, per se.

But what is strange, is that it feels more like a forced political statement than a fluid storytelling device, like an executive order to be more PC. This is evident from the DLC of Uncharted. Don't be fooled, they are doing to be more PC, not because they want a female lead. This is bad type of feminism and it works against the females.

Imagine working in a meeting on the draft of the script and even suggesting to not choose a female lead? Is not socially appraisive nowadays. So, there is no arguing against it.

Everyone is using all types of media to manifest political views, more and more. Not that is something wrong with it, but kinda turn off the escapism of the gaming media. To the trained mind, you can easily spot this stances. Feels too forced.

I'll not support this, even being a feminist, because of the sense of a forced political agenda that puts female on a pity zone.

Wait, you're serious?

 

[Retsudo]

I'm cool with this change, per se.


I'll not support this, even being a feminist, because of the sense of a forced political agenda that puts female on a pity zone.

What??

 

[BronsonLee]

HOW YOU GONNA COOK THE DOCTORS

 

[Heckler456]

Oh, absolutely. I'm not questioning the characters' motives, only players' discussions.

It makes no sense to condemn Joel based on a ridiculously implausible scenario. You have to ignore all logic and context established throughout the game in order to come to the conclusion that there's any world to be saved here.

Definitely agree with you there. There is a "simplistic" way to interpret the game where it kinda makes sense for Joel to "be the real bad guy", and just like my first option for explaining the cure, that might definitely end up being the canon thing they go with.

But I genuinely do not understand someone who comes to the conclusion that Joel is just straight up the bad guy if you connect everything connectable in the game.

Like, just the fact that Joel lost his daughter at the start of the game and lived through 20 years of hell essentially for ALL OF THAT to culminate in the exact same fucking thing happening again should give the character enough of a reason to make that decision, and for that decision to be the only logical next step for that character to take.