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[WhiskerFrisker]

Man, I'm sick of straight people's discomfort with queer people being masqueraded (especially to themselves) as progressive concern. Two things I want to say about this:

1. As a gay person, I'm really annoyed by the sentiment that gay characters' sexuality should just be a "sublte" trait that "doesn't define them." My sexuality absolutely friggin defines me. I think about the fact that I'm gay literally every single day. It defines who I love, the TV shows and comics I find myself drawn to, how I relate to society, what my politics are, how I view myself- my insecurities and my pride. It defines how people treat me. And It defines the community I find myself in, who my friends are and what my dating pool is- and our communities absolutely come to define us as people.

And this idea that our sexuality shouldn't define us is also a bullshit double-standard, because straight characters are allowed to have their sexuality define them all the time and nobody complains about it. straight people in the real world too. Straight people talk about their sexuality *all the time* and yet nobody complains that they are "letting" it define them. The only reason straight people don't realize how much your sexuality defines you is because you're all surrounded by people just like you. And when I see people say that gay characters like Ellie can't be too in-your-face, that her sexuality should be "sublte" like some kind of footnote in the textbook of her life, all I see is heterosexuals being uncomfortable.


2. Gay people are a community and subculture, and we have shared practices that we use to express our identites- the way we dress for example. Yes, it's true that clothing is inherently neutral and anybody can wear what they want- but it seems that whenever gay people find a way to express themselves in a way that becomes a shared marker of queerness between us, y'all are complaining about "stereotypes." We can't let certain hairstyles, ways of dressing, etc. becomes markers of queerness, you say, lest we perpetuate stereotypes. But these "stereotypes" aren't just made up stuff, these are real queer people who are adopting styles of presentation to celebrate ourselves. I spend so much time in lesbian circles and so many girls proudly wear flannel as a way to express their sexuality, talking about how gay their fashion is. And yeah, of course plenty of queer women don't wear flannel and dress in ways you moght consider "straight." And no matter how you dress doesn't literally define your sexuality and you should dress however you like. But the fact is that for a sizable portion of the LGBT population, certain things become something we positively mark as being "gay" and for a lot of gay people that becomes a really important part of expressing themselves and loving themselves. And when we talk about these things we love that have become part of our shared gay culture, you get concerned straight people coming in warning us "But clothing and hobbies and music and hair don't have a sexuality!! Stop perpetuating stereotypes!" And you might be well-intentioned in that, but I can't help but feel this is another example of straight people being uncomfortable with us and expressing that discomfort in progressive language.

Yes. This should be posted on the front page.

 

[Doop]

Man, I'm sick of straight people's discomfort with queer people being masqueraded (especially to themselves) as progressive concern. Two things I want to say about this:

1. As a gay person, I'm really annoyed by the sentiment that gay characters' sexuality should just be a "sublte" trait that "doesn't define them." My sexuality absolutely friggin defines me. I think about the fact that I'm gay literally every single day. It defines who I love, the TV shows and comics I find myself drawn to, how I relate to society, what my politics are, how I view myself- my insecurities and my pride. It defines how people treat me. And It defines the community I find myself in, who my friends are and what my dating pool is- and our communities absolutely come to define us as people.

And this idea that our sexuality shouldn't define us is also a bullshit double-standard, because straight characters are allowed to have their sexuality define them all the time and nobody complains about it. straight people in the real world too. Straight people talk about their sexuality *all the time* and yet nobody complains that they are "letting" it define them. The only reason straight people don't realize how much your sexuality defines you is because you're all surrounded by people just like you. And when I see people say that gay characters like Ellie can't be too in-your-face, that her sexuality should be "sublte" like some kind of footnote in the textbook of her life, all I see is heterosexuals being uncomfortable.


2. Gay people are a community and subculture, and we have shared practices that we use to express our identites- the way we dress for example. Yes, it's true that clothing is inherently neutral and anybody can wear what they want- but it seems that whenever gay people find a way to express themselves in a way that becomes a shared marker of queerness between us, y'all are complaining about "stereotypes." We can't let certain hairstyles, ways of dressing, etc. becomes markers of queerness, you say, lest we perpetuate stereotypes. But these "stereotypes" aren't just made up stuff, these are real queer people who are adopting styles of presentation to celebrate ourselves. I spend so much time in lesbian circles and so many girls proudly wear flannel as a way to express their sexuality, talking about how gay their fashion is. And yeah, of course plenty of queer women don't wear flannel and dress in ways you moght consider "straight." And no matter how you dress doesn't literally define your sexuality and you should dress however you like. But the fact is that for a sizable portion of the LGBT population, certain things become something we positively mark as being "gay" and for a lot of gay people that becomes a really important part of expressing themselves and loving themselves. And when we talk about these things we love that have become part of our shared gay culture, you get concerned straight people coming in warning us "But clothing and hobbies and music and hair don't have a sexuality!! Stop perpetuating stereotypes!" And you might be well-intentioned in that, but I can't help but feel this is another example of straight people being uncomfortable with us and expressing that discomfort in progressive language.

Damn this is a good post.

 

[Catvoca]

Man, I'm sick of straight people's discomfort with queer people being masqueraded (especially to themselves) as progressive concern. Two things I want to say about this:

1. As a gay person, I'm really annoyed by the sentiment that gay characters' sexuality should just be a "sublte" trait that "doesn't define them." My sexuality absolutely friggin defines me. I think about the fact that I'm gay literally every single day. It defines who I love, the TV shows and comics I find myself drawn to, how I relate to society, what my politics are, how I view myself- my insecurities and my pride. It defines how people treat me. And It defines the community I find myself in, who my friends are and what my dating pool is- and our communities absolutely come to define us as people.

And this idea that our sexuality shouldn't define us is also a bullshit double-standard, because straight characters are allowed to have their sexuality define them all the time and nobody complains about it. straight people in the real world too. Straight people talk about their sexuality *all the time* and yet nobody complains that they are "letting" it define them. The only reason straight people don't realize how much your sexuality defines you is because you're all surrounded by people just like you. And when I see people say that gay characters like Ellie can't be too in-your-face, that her sexuality should be "sublte" like some kind of footnote in the textbook of her life, all I see is heterosexuals being uncomfortable.


2. Gay people are a community and subculture, and we have shared practices that we use to express our identites- the way we dress for example. Yes, it's true that clothing is inherently neutral and anybody can wear what they want- but it seems that whenever gay people find a way to express themselves in a way that becomes a shared marker of queerness between us, y'all are complaining about "stereotypes." We can't let certain hairstyles, ways of dressing, etc. becomes markers of queerness, you say, lest we perpetuate stereotypes. But these "stereotypes" aren't just made up stuff, these are real queer people who are adopting styles of presentation to celebrate ourselves. I spend so much time in lesbian circles and so many girls proudly wear flannel as a way to express their sexuality, talking about how gay their fashion is. And yeah, of course plenty of queer women don't wear flannel and dress in ways you moght consider "straight." And no matter how you dress doesn't literally define your sexuality and you should dress however you like. But the fact is that for a sizable portion of the LGBT population, certain things become something we positively mark as being "gay" and for a lot of gay people that becomes a really important part of expressing themselves and loving themselves. And when we talk about these things we love that have become part of our shared gay culture, you get concerned straight people coming in warning us "But clothing and hobbies and music and hair don't have a sexuality!! Stop perpetuating stereotypes!" And you might be well-intentioned in that, but I can't help but feel this is another example of straight people being uncomfortable with us and expressing that discomfort in progressive language.

Great, great post.

 

[Metroidvania]

Gone home

Technically, the sister is gay, not 'you' as the female character running around (unless I missed something?)

Athena from Borderlands is the only playable lesbian (who is always one, not an option like Bioware/LiS/Bethesda) in recent memory.

Even better, look at the infamous Korra nonsense ending. Is the idea of a strong female character so non-traditional that everything about them needs to be made non-traditional in turn?

Nonsense ending?

Clarify, please. Just because you didn't 'see it coming' doesn't mean that had anything to do with anyone other than Korra and Asami. I don't see how 'Korra being strong' has anything do tie in with it.

 

[Two Words]

Is it rude of me to say that I don't think homosexual relationships in a story can be effectively done exactly like a heterosexual relationship? My view of it is that stories with a heavy romantic element are usually trying to use our feelings of romance to drive some story. If you take that same romance and swap it out for a homosexual romance, I think the majority of people would just not have that emotional reaction that is desired by the storyteller.

That isn't me saying we shouldn't have homosexual relationships in stories. I think we should, and I think those relationships should be meaningful in the story. But I do have my doubts that we will ever have a story so heavily focused on romance as something like Romeo and Juliet with a homosexual couple that will yield the same emotional response from the general public as a heterosexual couple.

Do you think I am thinking about this issue in too simple terms?

 

[Kenzodielocke]

Man, I'm sick of straight people's discomfort with queer people being masqueraded (especially to themselves) as progressive concern. Two things I want to say about this:

1. As a gay person, I'm really annoyed by the sentiment that gay characters' sexuality should just be a "sublte" trait that "doesn't define them." My sexuality absolutely friggin defines me. I think about the fact that I'm gay literally every single day. It defines who I love, the TV shows and comics I find myself drawn to, how I relate to society, what my politics are, how I view myself- my insecurities and my pride. It defines how people treat me. And It defines the community I find myself in, who my friends are and what my dating pool is- and our communities absolutely come to define us as people.

And this idea that our sexuality shouldn't define us is also a bullshit double-standard, because straight characters are allowed to have their sexuality define them all the time and nobody complains about it. straight people in the real world too. Straight people talk about their sexuality *all the time* and yet nobody complains that they are "letting" it define them. The only reason straight people don't realize how much your sexuality defines you is because you're all surrounded by people just like you. And when I see people say that gay characters like Ellie can't be too in-your-face, that her sexuality should be "sublte" like some kind of footnote in the textbook of her life, all I see is heterosexuals being uncomfortable.


2. Gay people are a community and subculture, and we have shared practices that we use to express our identites- the way we dress for example. Yes, it's true that clothing is inherently neutral and anybody can wear what they want- but it seems that whenever gay people find a way to express themselves in a way that becomes a shared marker of queerness between us, y'all are complaining about "stereotypes." We can't let certain hairstyles, ways of dressing, etc. becomes markers of queerness, you say, lest we perpetuate stereotypes. But these "stereotypes" aren't just made up stuff, these are real queer people who are adopting styles of presentation to celebrate ourselves. I spend so much time in lesbian circles and so many girls proudly wear flannel as a way to express their sexuality, talking about how gay their fashion is. And yeah, of course plenty of queer women don't wear flannel and dress in ways you moght consider "straight." And no matter how you dress doesn't literally define your sexuality and you should dress however you like. But the fact is that for a sizable portion of the LGBT population, certain things become something we positively mark as being "gay" and for a lot of gay people that becomes a really important part of expressing themselves and loving themselves. And when we talk about these things we love that have become part of our shared gay culture, you get concerned straight people coming in warning us "But clothing and hobbies and music and hair don't have a sexuality!! Stop perpetuating stereotypes!" And you might be well-intentioned in that, but I can't help but feel this is another example of straight people being uncomfortable with us and expressing that discomfort in progressive language.

Very well spoken, thanks. Added to the OP.

 

[Kazooie]

Is it rude of me to say that I don't think homosexual relationships in a story can be effectively done exactly like a heterosexual relationship? My view of it is that stories with a heavy romantic element are usually trying to use our feelings of romance to drive some story. If you take that same romance and swap it out for a homosexual romance, I think the majority of people would just not have that emotional reaction that is desired by the storyteller.

That isn't me saying we shouldn't have homosexual relationships in stories. I think we should, and I think those relationships should be meaningful in the story. But I do have my doubts that we will ever have a story so heavily focused on romance as something like Romeo and Juliet with a homosexual couple that will yield the same emotional response from the general public as a heterosexual couple.

Do you think I am thinking about this issue in too simple terms?

Outrage incoming in 3... 2... 1...

 

[DirgeExtinction]

‏@sapphicgeek

Wow, that's beautiful.

As for Ellie's sexuality being a focal point in TLOU2...
It doesn't matter. To bring up ND's other series, in Uncharted, Drake is as straight as you can get. He flirts with women. He even gets married. His sexuality is a big thing in that series, and no one bats an eye.

If Ellie has a love interest in Part 2, so be it. Queer folk and queer love deserve representation in the AAA space as well.

 

[Palmer27]

I hope it embraces the lesbian-ness (as it has nicely so far) but stays to true to Elly's character. She's more gay than super gay. Wonder what - if any - adult relationships she's had?

 

[NightShift]

I wouldn't mind part 2 being "super gay". An openly gay protagonist in a AAA game is long overdue and the backlash from homophobes would be hilarious.

 

[RocknRola]

A love interest definitely could make the story far more interesting (have Ellie, for example, chose between an actual life or pure revenge, that sort of stuff). but who knows. Too early to tell, and I'm betting that's the sort of stuff ND will keep close to their hearts until the release day.

 

[squidyj]

If they can make going that way work then great they should run with it, regardless I want a lot of Joel in TLOU2

Spoiler

please don't die

so I guess I don't want it to be so gay that it precludes other relationships? that'd be too gay but it's pretty hard for it to be THAT gay.

 

[Testicular Sound Express]

I'm eyerolling at all the 'they should keep it subtle! that made it way better' comments. To me this just sounds like BS, it reads as 'Its ok if they're gay as long as it doesn't make me uncomfortable.'

 

[Mikeside]

Yes, I am the writer.

What kind of question is that?

LoU wasn't even slightly about sexuality. And no, it wasn't with Joel either. Stop being silly.

Ellie should still be gay, because that's who she is. Ellie should not be loudly, broadly gay, because that's not who she is.

Ellie dating a girl is fine. Cool, even. Like, it doesn't interest me, but it's different than most of the trash put out there. I don't think that counts as 'super gay' though.

And, shockingly, your Uncharted comparison is dumb. Sexual relationships are a huge part of Uncharted. The idea of 'you don't want a gay centerpiece because it's not straight' is so presumptuous and dumb that I'm rolling my fucking eyes typing this. Gosh.

considering she's a young girl in the first game, of course that's not who she is.

doesn't mean that's not who an older Ellie is

 

[DICKS AHOY]

Unintentionally hilarious headline aside given Left Behind I'm assuming that uh yeah, Ellie is still going to be a lesbian in this game and with TLOU's emphasis on plot it'll be a major character element here too. Not like, the focal point of the game obviously (hopefully?) but it'll still clearly be there, knowing Ellie's an adult now and also knowing Naughty Dog.

I had mixed feelings about Left Behind, but more due to all the THIS IS A WATERSHED MOMENT PEOPLE articles about what in-context was a fairly small but nice character moment that wasn't really the main point of that DLC story. She also wasn't the first openly gay character in a game by a longshot, but whatever. Ellie being gay herself was fine, especially since it's not like it was ever an issue touched upon one way or the other in the vanilla game.

Regardless of drama one way or the other, The Last of Us Part II will be 'super gay', yes.

 

[Basketball]

Why would be the harm if it was super gay? Like so what if she talks about women and hits on women and sleeps with women and mentions how much it sucks that society doesn't like queers and all that stuff? Why does the game need to be subtle when dealing with these issues? Why should it be left to the player's imagination? Why does it need to be well done?

edit:
awesome post. signal boosting!

I see where you're coming from but remember the setting of the game. Apocalyptic wasteland where flesh eating fungus zombies have taken over and human are ruthless to each other to survive. I doubt the struggles of being gay is on the top of the list.

 

[The Emperor]

Man, I'm sick of straight people's discomfort with queer people being masqueraded (especially to themselves) as progressive concern. Two things I want to say about this:

1. As a gay person, I'm really annoyed by the sentiment that gay characters' sexuality should just be a "sublte" trait that "doesn't define them." My sexuality absolutely friggin defines me. I think about the fact that I'm gay literally every single day. It defines who I love, the TV shows and comics I find myself drawn to, how I relate to society, what my politics are, how I view myself- my insecurities and my pride. It defines how people treat me. And It defines the community I find myself in, who my friends are and what my dating pool is- and our communities absolutely come to define us as people.

And this idea that our sexuality shouldn't define us is also a bullshit double-standard, because straight characters are allowed to have their sexuality define them all the time and nobody complains about it. straight people in the real world too. Straight people talk about their sexuality *all the time* and yet nobody complains that they are "letting" it define them. The only reason straight people don't realize how much your sexuality defines you is because you're all surrounded by people just like you. And when I see people say that gay characters like Ellie can't be too in-your-face, that her sexuality should be "sublte" like some kind of footnote in the textbook of her life, all I see is heterosexuals being uncomfortable.


2. Gay people are a community and subculture, and we have shared practices that we use to express our identites- the way we dress for example. Yes, it's true that clothing is inherently neutral and anybody can wear what they want- but it seems that whenever gay people find a way to express themselves in a way that becomes a shared marker of queerness between us, y'all are complaining about "stereotypes." We can't let certain hairstyles, ways of dressing, etc. becomes markers of queerness, you say, lest we perpetuate stereotypes. But these "stereotypes" aren't just made up stuff, these are real queer people who are adopting styles of presentation to celebrate ourselves. I spend so much time in lesbian circles and so many girls proudly wear flannel as a way to express their sexuality, talking about how gay their fashion is. And yeah, of course plenty of queer women don't wear flannel and dress in ways you moght consider "straight." And no matter how you dress doesn't literally define your sexuality and you should dress however you like. But the fact is that for a sizable portion of the LGBT population, certain things become something we positively mark as being "gay" and for a lot of gay people that becomes a really important part of expressing themselves and loving themselves. And when we talk about these things we love that have become part of our shared gay culture, you get concerned straight people coming in warning us "But clothing and hobbies and music and hair don't have a sexuality!! Stop perpetuating stereotypes!" And you might be well-intentioned in that, but I can't help but feel this is another example of straight people being uncomfortable with us and expressing that discomfort in progressive language.

You have my rainbow sword Twiforce

 

[pastrami]

To be the devil's advocate for the "gameplay first , everything else later" post

I think these post probably mean they don't want the game to be "super" gay like the writer of the article wants. Left behind did a great job I thought everything included, plus that along with that other character in the game that was gay.

Makes me think of that one trait in Rogue Legacy a bit

I think the subtlety works in Left Behind because we first see the affection that Riley and Ellie have for one another. Then we get to the big moment and it feels natural because we've already seen how much they love each other.

But now we know Ellie is gay. And she knows she's gay. So why do we need subtlety again?

 

[Astral Dog]

I hope the butch stereotype also dies eventually as well.

Girls can dress however they want without having to be labeled in a specific group just from their appearance.

Elie is a killer with tons of PTSD and mental issues, who much doesn't care about her appearance, and generally can wear whatever she wants as a woman surviving in a post apocalyptic world that has no mind for distinctions between male and female fashion.

Yeah i mean i didnt get "lesbian" from the trailer, just saw a woman in a post apocalyptic world singing, didnt knew it was supposed to represent lesbian movies of old.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Is it rude of me to say that I don't think homosexual relationships in a story can be effectively done exactly like a heterosexual relationship? My view of it is that stories with a heavy romantic element are usually trying to use our feelings of romance to drive some story. If you take that same romance and swap it out for a homosexual romance, I think the majority of people would just not have that emotional reaction that is desired by the storyteller.

That isn't me saying we shouldn't have homosexual relationships in stories. I think we should, and I think those relationships should be meaningful in the story. But I do have my doubts that we will ever have a story so heavily focused on romance as something like Romeo and Juliet with a homosexual couple that will yield the same emotional response from the general public as a heterosexual couple.

Do you think I am thinking about this issue in too simple terms?

This has more to do with the ability of the developers and writers and not some inherent problem with depicting homosexuality and/or homosexual relationships.

 

[Razmos]

Man, I'm sick of straight people's discomfort with queer people being masqueraded (especially to themselves) as progressive concern. Two things I want to say about this:

1. As a gay person, I'm really annoyed by the sentiment that gay characters' sexuality should just be a "sublte" trait that "doesn't define them." My sexuality absolutely friggin defines me. I think about the fact that I'm gay literally every single day. It defines who I love, the TV shows and comics I find myself drawn to, how I relate to society, what my politics are, how I view myself- my insecurities and my pride. It defines how people treat me. And It defines the community I find myself in, who my friends are and what my dating pool is- and our communities absolutely come to define us as people.

And this idea that our sexuality shouldn't define us is also a bullshit double-standard, because straight characters are allowed to have their sexuality define them all the time and nobody complains about it. straight people in the real world too. Straight people talk about their sexuality *all the time* and yet nobody complains that they are "letting" it define them. The only reason straight people don't realize how much your sexuality defines you is because you're all surrounded by people just like you. And when I see people say that gay characters like Ellie can't be too in-your-face, that her sexuality should be "sublte" like some kind of footnote in the textbook of her life, all I see is heterosexuals being uncomfortable.


2. Gay people are a community and subculture, and we have shared practices that we use to express our identites- the way we dress for example. Yes, it's true that clothing is inherently neutral and anybody can wear what they want- but it seems that whenever gay people find a way to express themselves in a way that becomes a shared marker of queerness between us, y'all are complaining about "stereotypes." We can't let certain hairstyles, ways of dressing, etc. becomes markers of queerness, you say, lest we perpetuate stereotypes. But these "stereotypes" aren't just made up stuff, these are real queer people who are adopting styles of presentation to celebrate ourselves. I spend so much time in lesbian circles and so many girls proudly wear flannel as a way to express their sexuality, talking about how gay their fashion is. And yeah, of course plenty of queer women don't wear flannel and dress in ways you moght consider "straight." And no matter how you dress doesn't literally define your sexuality and you should dress however you like. But the fact is that for a sizable portion of the LGBT population, certain things become something we positively mark as being "gay" and for a lot of gay people that becomes a really important part of expressing themselves and loving themselves. And when we talk about these things we love that have become part of our shared gay culture, you get concerned straight people coming in warning us "But clothing and hobbies and music and hair don't have a sexuality!! Stop perpetuating stereotypes!" And you might be well-intentioned in that, but I can't help but feel this is another example of straight people being uncomfortable with us and expressing that discomfort in progressive language.

Thanks fuck for this post. Perfect.

 

[Fahzgoolin]

Nonsense ending?

Clarify, please. Just because you didn't 'see it coming' doesn't mean that had anything to do with anyone other than Korra and Asami. I don't see how 'Korra being strong' has anything do tie in with it.

To be fair, Korra's development as a character (at least in my opinion after watching it one time) made no progress or hints that she was sexually interested in females. In fact, her romantic interests throughout the show seemed to be a point of frustration due to miscommunication, immaturity, and character flaws of the males she was in contact with.

So the ending was out of left field for my wife and I and it felt out of place when considering her whole character and what we knew of her. It seemed more like a reaction to her frustrations with the males in the show instead of "who she is", if that makes sense.

 

[Inuhanyou]

I think that Twiforce is missing a critical element in the fact that we are already dealing with preset gender roles every time a straight male character and a straight female character look at each other in games.

We've come a decent way, but the gaming industry is still littered with women being a prize for men, and games essentially breaking down everything from the lense of a hormonal straight white male's perspective.

This is a cause and effect of media emphasizing male identity and female identity in very set defined ways.

We can't talk about alternate sexual preferences and how they are potrayed in media without understanding that potrayal is still an issue for all types of people.

Therefore its very much a straw man to say that "straight sexuality takes over characters all the time and nobody complains!" Uh no, a lot of people DO complain, and we are complaining about this as well.

 

[Trigonometrize.]

Is it rude of me to say that I don't think homosexual relationships in a story can be effectively done exactly like a heterosexual relationship? My view of it is that stories with a heavy romantic element are usually trying to use our feelings of romance to drive some story. If you take that same romance and swap it out for a homosexual romance, I think the majority of people would just not have that emotional reaction that is desired by the storyteller.

That isn't me saying we shouldn't have homosexual relationships in stories. I think we should, and I think those relationships should be meaningful in the story. But I do have my doubts that we will ever have a story so heavily focused on romance as something like Romeo and Juliet with a homosexual couple that will yield the same emotional response from the general public as a heterosexual couple.

Do you think I am thinking about this issue in too simple terms?

I think you might be correct that a homosexual relationship in a story will not be as warmly as received as a heterosexual relationship done equally as well, but is this worth pointing out? Creators shouldn't be afraid to grow diversity/representation even if it means getting more accolades from people, and making this a talking point probably won't help. And it might not even be true all things considered.

 

[xevis]

I see where your coming from but remember the setting of the game. Apocalyptic wasteland where flesh eating fungus zombies have taken over and human are ruthless to each other to survive. I doubt the struggles of being gay is not on the top of the list.

Post-apocalyptic stories are typically stories of people trying to retain their humanity in an impossible situation. What could be more human that trying find people to connect with? Look at all the hetero drama on TWD.

 

[Alienfan]

Yes, I am the writer.

What kind of question is that?

LoU wasn't even slightly about sexuality. And no, it wasn't with Joel either. Stop being silly.

Ellie should still be gay, because that's who she is. Ellie should not be loudly, broadly gay, because that's not who she is.

Ellie dating a girl is fine. Cool, even. Like, it doesn't interest me, but it's different than most of the trash put out there. I don't think that counts as 'super gay' though.

And, shockingly, your Uncharted comparison is dumb. Sexual relationships are a huge part of Uncharted. The idea of 'you don't want a gay centerpiece because it's not straight' is so presumptuous and dumb that I'm rolling my fucking eyes typing this. Gosh.

So Last of Us has to follow the exact same themes of the first game, because why exactly... You still haven't explained that part.
You're the one that labeled Ellie's sexuality as a "social point", was it really presumptuous of me.

The Last of Us delt with masculinity and fatherhood, why can't the sequel explore sexuality if the writers choose to?

 

[Spring-Loaded]

Man, I'm sick of straight people's discomfort with queer people being masqueraded (especially to themselves) as progressive concern. Two things I want to say about this:

1. As a gay person, I'm really annoyed by the sentiment that gay characters' sexuality should just be a "sublte" trait that "doesn't define them." My sexuality absolutely friggin defines me. I think about the fact that I'm gay literally every single day. It defines who I love, the TV shows and comics I find myself drawn to, how I relate to society, what my politics are, how I view myself- my insecurities and my pride. It defines how people treat me. And It defines the community I find myself in, who my friends are and what my dating pool is- and our communities absolutely come to define us as people.

And this idea that our sexuality shouldn't define us is also a bullshit double-standard, because straight characters are allowed to have their sexuality define them all the time and nobody complains about it. straight people in the real world too. Straight people talk about their sexuality *all the time* and yet nobody complains that they are "letting" it define them. The only reason straight people don't realize how much your sexuality defines you is because you're all surrounded by people just like you. And when I see people say that gay characters like Ellie can't be too in-your-face, that her sexuality should be "sublte" like some kind of footnote in the textbook of her life, all I see is heterosexuals being uncomfortable.

Thanks for this.

The people pining for 'subtlety" should instead push for normalization of homosexuality—and that will happen once it becomes common, not when it's really subtle and easily ignored.

 

[Heckler456]

Apart from making her lesbian version of "Big Gay Al", what would be the issue with them not being "subtle" about it? Like, if she was outwardly and vocally gay, what would be dishonest about it? And by "outwardly and vocally", I mean her explicitly displaying feelings for another woman in a romantic/sexual manner.

I'll bring up the Bill/Frank situation again.

Bill is an outwardly stoic character. His relationship with Frank serves to contrast the facade he puts up versus what's beneath it. It also shows that even during these kinds of trying times, people will inevitably look for intimacy.

Bill is also a character who is utterly focused on survival. His relationship, and the eventual failure thereof, serves to show what the consequence might be of putting (sorry for the schmaltz) survival over actually living your life.

There's probably more, but those are just connections I can quite easily make about just one aspect of Bill as a character, which is the relationship between him and Frank.

As long as I can make connections like that, they're doing a good job.

Oh and, I don't have a problem with her being explicit in her display or sexual interest in a woman, as long as her character has a well reasoned impetus to be showing sexual or relational interest at that point in the story to begin with, and as long as there is a greater point that carries through to either the plot or a sub-plot, or the telling of the narrative. It's no different that any other thing that happens in any other story.

I'm just going off of the cuff here, so this analogy might not entirely work, but: replace showing sexual/romantic interest with telling a joke. They both pretty explicitly relay an emotional state. So in terms of the story, does it feel right for the character to be making a joke right now? Does it even feel right for the character to tell jokes, full stop? Does telling a joke right now actually add anything to the overall narrative, or this subplot? Or does it serve whatever I'm trying to do with the pacing at this particular point?

 

[Xamtheking]

I might be worried if Naughty Dog wasn't making this, but I feel they can make a LGBT character with a deep personality who isn't defined by her being LGBT

 

[GravityInsanity]

Drake could've stayed home instead of going after Rafe which would've allowed Rafe to get the treasure without resorting to violence.

Here's videos of all the treasures Drake has found throughout the game 1, 2, and 3. Several of those are found when looking through his house during the beginning of the game or during the epilogue.

Drake didn't go after Rafe lol. Drake was helping out Sam because Sam was in

Spoiler

danger (he lied).

Again I know he took few treasures here and there but you said he took ALL the treasure which is false. Drake is not rich at all. But like another thread I was in lets stay on topic and not focus on UC4.

 

[Sylas]

I see where you're coming from but remember the setting of the game. Apocalyptic wasteland where flesh eating fungus zombies have taken over and human are ruthless to each other to survive. I doubt the struggles of being gay is on the top of the list.

And finding romantic love and romantic happiness despite the miserable scenarios is an interesting scenario to play out in that sort of setting. A gay person would have a far greater struggle (or would likely) in finding that happiness and sense of belonging with another human being.

So, yeah.

 

[Mechazawa]

Welp, this is what I get for sitting on that Last of Us DLC for so long.

 

[Glass Rebel]

i hope it's ultra gay

 

[Inuhanyou]

I'm eyerolling at all the 'they should keep it subtle! that made it way better' comments. To me this just sounds like BS, it reads as 'Its ok if they're gay as long as it doesn't make me uncomfortable.'

But that is also a false flag to those people of non straight orientation that they have to act in a certain way to be representing. Sort of like 'your not black enough' from my perspective

I'm sure there are plenty of homophobes around who are just uncomfortable with gay relationships, just like there are people who say they 'cant identify with playing as women', but there are also those of us who are just genuinely concerned about character portrayal, and keeping true to the characters and individuals first before simply ticking a check box of what people consider the most stereotypical stuff and throwing it in just to say its a symbolic win for representation.

That takes the entire point of it aiming for such normalization of society.

 

[Kinyou]

Im honestly not really expecting much of a love story. Those kind of feelings were already very subdued in Last of Us. And with hate being a central theme it would be odd to spend half the game flirting with a side character

 

[Trigonometrize.]

And finding romantic love and romantic happiness despite the miserable scenarios is an interesting scenario to play out in that sort of setting. A gay person would have a far greater struggle (or would likely) in finding that happiness and sense of belonging with another human being.

So, yeah.

Personally, I think seeing how they fall apart is the more interesting aspect. See: Bill (sort of)

 

[Woorloog]

Im honestly not really expecting much of a love story. Those kind of feelings were already very subdued in Last of Us. And with hate being a central theme it woukd be odd to spend half the game flirting with a side character

Maybe hate includes letting go of hate? Love, a relationship might be a route to that?

 

[Kalentan]

I guess for me it kind of depends on how Ellie grew up these last 5 years in Tommy's camp. If it was a place where she was able to express herself, then it makes sense of her sexuality to become a more prominent thing in Part II. However if her own sexuality fell to the back as she focused on other stuff then it wouldn't be too shocking if they wen't a more subtle route.

I feel like at least for me, we need to know what happened between Part I and II to really inform a opinion on how she should be in the sequel.

 

[Bubble]

I honestly like seeing romantic relationships in games (and other mediums as well), so if they gave Ellie a love interest in TLOU: Part 2, that sounds like it could be really cool. I really liked the Nate & Elena relationship in Uncharted 4 (actually, I liked their relationship in all 4 Uncharted games), so I got confidence in Naughty Dogs to write a good relationship for Ellie, if they in the end give her a love interest and put her in a relationship. Although, if the theme of the game is "Hate", then maybe putting Ellie in a romantic relationship isn't the most fitting thing to do, considering a relationship is all about "Love".

On a side-note, this topic makes me wish for more games were romance plays a bigger part in games.

 

[John Kowalski]

i hope it's ultra gay

gay to the power of gay?

 

[IvorB]

It's funny when there is finally a gay protagonist in a game then suddenly it's: oh I hope she's not going to be too gay. Wouldn't do to have that "shoe-horned" in or to become a focus. I wonder if these are subtly coded reskins of the old as-long-as-it's-not-in-my-face sentiment.

 

[ShutterMunster]

Man, I'm sick of straight people's discomfort with queer people being masqueraded (especially to themselves) as progressive concern. Two things I want to say about this:

1. As a gay person, I'm really annoyed by the sentiment that gay characters' sexuality should just be a "sublte" trait that "doesn't define them." My sexuality absolutely friggin defines me. I think about the fact that I'm gay literally every single day. It defines who I love, the TV shows and comics I find myself drawn to, how I relate to society, what my politics are, how I view myself- my insecurities and my pride. It defines how people treat me. And It defines the community I find myself in, who my friends are and what my dating pool is- and our communities absolutely come to define us as people.

And this idea that our sexuality shouldn't define us is also a bullshit double-standard, because straight characters are allowed to have their sexuality define them all the time and nobody complains about it. straight people in the real world too. Straight people talk about their sexuality *all the time* and yet nobody complains that they are "letting" it define them. The only reason straight people don't realize how much your sexuality defines you is because you're all surrounded by people just like you. And when I see people say that gay characters like Ellie can't be too in-your-face, that her sexuality should be "sublte" like some kind of footnote in the textbook of her life, all I see is heterosexuals being uncomfortable.


2. Gay people are a community and subculture, and we have shared practices that we use to express our identites- the way we dress for example. Yes, it's true that clothing is inherently neutral and anybody can wear what they want- but it seems that whenever gay people find a way to express themselves in a way that becomes a shared marker of queerness between us, y'all are complaining about "stereotypes." We can't let certain hairstyles, ways of dressing, etc. becomes markers of queerness, you say, lest we perpetuate stereotypes. But these "stereotypes" aren't just made up stuff, these are real queer people who are adopting styles of presentation to celebrate ourselves. I spend so much time in lesbian circles and so many girls proudly wear flannel as a way to express their sexuality, talking about how gay their fashion is. And yeah, of course plenty of queer women don't wear flannel and dress in ways you moght consider "straight." And no matter how you dress doesn't literally define your sexuality and you should dress however you like. But the fact is that for a sizable portion of the LGBT population, certain things become something we positively mark as being "gay" and for a lot of gay people that becomes a really important part of expressing themselves and loving themselves. And when we talk about these things we love that have become part of our shared gay culture, you get concerned straight people coming in warning us "But clothing and hobbies and music and hair don't have a sexuality!! Stop perpetuating stereotypes!" And you might be well-intentioned in that, but I can't help but feel this is another example of straight people being uncomfortable with us and expressing that discomfort in progressive language.

This post is so flames. Gaf isn't worthy of such fire.

 

[Inuhanyou]

It's funny when there is finally a gay protagonist in a game then suddenly it's: oh I hope she's not going to be too gay. Wouldn't do to have that "shoe-horned" in or to become a focus. I wonder if these are subtly coded reskins of the old as-long-as-it's-not-in-my-face sentiment.

Well it depends on if you think those folks are actual bigots or if they are trying to make a point that your skipping over.

I admit i am out of my element speaking to certain people here who surely have more experience with these topics than i, but i do know that generalizing folks is not good in any scenario.

 

[RocknRola]

Man, I'm sick of straight people's discomfort with queer people being masqueraded (especially to themselves) as progressive concern. Two things I want to say about this:

1. As a gay person, I'm really annoyed by the sentiment that gay characters' sexuality should just be a "sublte" trait that "doesn't define them." My sexuality absolutely friggin defines me. I think about the fact that I'm gay literally every single day. It defines who I love, the TV shows and comics I find myself drawn to, how I relate to society, what my politics are, how I view myself- my insecurities and my pride. It defines how people treat me. And It defines the community I find myself in, who my friends are and what my dating pool is- and our communities absolutely come to define us as people.

And this idea that our sexuality shouldn't define us is also a bullshit double-standard, because straight characters are allowed to have their sexuality define them all the time and nobody complains about it. straight people in the real world too. Straight people talk about their sexuality *all the time* and yet nobody complains that they are "letting" it define them. The only reason straight people don't realize how much your sexuality defines you is because you're all surrounded by people just like you. And when I see people say that gay characters like Ellie can't be too in-your-face, that her sexuality should be "sublte" like some kind of footnote in the textbook of her life, all I see is heterosexuals being uncomfortable.


2. Gay people are a community and subculture, and we have shared practices that we use to express our identites- the way we dress for example. Yes, it's true that clothing is inherently neutral and anybody can wear what they want- but it seems that whenever gay people find a way to express themselves in a way that becomes a shared marker of queerness between us, y'all are complaining about "stereotypes." We can't let certain hairstyles, ways of dressing, etc. becomes markers of queerness, you say, lest we perpetuate stereotypes. But these "stereotypes" aren't just made up stuff, these are real queer people who are adopting styles of presentation to celebrate ourselves. I spend so much time in lesbian circles and so many girls proudly wear flannel as a way to express their sexuality, talking about how gay their fashion is. And yeah, of course plenty of queer women don't wear flannel and dress in ways you moght consider "straight." And no matter how you dress doesn't literally define your sexuality and you should dress however you like. But the fact is that for a sizable portion of the LGBT population, certain things become something we positively mark as being "gay" and for a lot of gay people that becomes a really important part of expressing themselves and loving themselves. And when we talk about these things we love that have become part of our shared gay culture, you get concerned straight people coming in warning us "But clothing and hobbies and music and hair don't have a sexuality!! Stop perpetuating stereotypes!" And you might be well-intentioned in that, but I can't help but feel this is another example of straight people being uncomfortable with us and expressing that discomfort in progressive language.

Very much this. Great post.

Mainstream games (which this will be) are a great, easy way to share the spotlight on groups that need them. Sure, I think we should already be at a point where a dev could pick any race/gender/sex/etc they want for their protagonists, but alas...baby steps.

Plus, in my case (and the in the case of many I'm sure), being straight never stopped me from trying to put myself in the shoes of others and try to at the very least understand what they might be talking about/experiencing/sharing/etc. Not that I'm always successful at that of course, but I'll gladly keep on trying.

I'm betting that if ND does go down this path, it'll definitely be an interesting learning experience (though, not I'm not female either so some things might not apply, dunno) and it'll just make the story even more interesting IMO.

That's also kinda the point of stories right? Go along for the ride of someone that is nothing like you in any way, learn to empathize with others, learn to feel what the author(s) and/or character(s) might be feeling, etc. Otherwise, what's the point? If you're just gonna read/watch/hear the same things ad infinitum, you might as well just pick ONE game/film/book/album to use for the rest of your life...

 

[Hysteria]

I agree. I want good GAMEPLAY over anything else.

It matters because there's next to no homosexual representation in gaming.

Characters, MAIN characters are usually heterosexual.
I don't know why this is a question when the answer is so obvious.

 

[SolicitorPirate]

To be fair, Korra's development as a character (at least in my opinion after watching it one time) made no progress or hints that she was sexually interested in females. In fact, her romantic interests throughout the show seemed to be a point of frustration due to miscommunication, immaturity, and character flaws of the males she was in contact with.

So the ending was out of left field for my wife and I and it felt out of place when considering her whole character and what we knew of her. It seemed more like a reaction to her frustrations with the males in the show instead of "who she is", if that makes sense.

While I personally did not see it coming, feedback from quite a number of my gay and bi friends was that they saw the seeds been planted since season 3.

Keep in mind, minorities are normally more familiar with reading subtext about themselves, since popular fiction rarely addresses our issues openly.

 

[Ploid 3.0]

I was watching reactions to the trailer and I think Naughty Dog struck gold with this game. Finally a game for women, gay, straight, everyone! So many different people on youtube so thrilled for this game. I don't know if it's just that I haven't noticed it before but it seems like a like it's a lot more variety than usual, especially women.

Naughty Dog did a great job representing women with this series it seem. Made them a normal person that anyone can see a reflection of themself in or relate with. More characters like these, Alex, the Beyond Good and Evil person (Jade? I never played it), and so on. Normal women, there's a large audience out there. The people reacting sometimes even say they don't usually play games, but somehow they are into TLOU, incredible.

 

[Inviusx]

Gay or straight, who cares it's a video game. Will it be fun to play? That's all that should matter.

 

[Hysteria]

Man, I'm sick of straight people's discomfort with queer people being masqueraded (especially to themselves) as progressive concern. Two things I want to say about this:

1. As a gay person, I'm really annoyed by the sentiment that gay characters' sexuality should just be a "sublte" trait that "doesn't define them." My sexuality absolutely friggin defines me. I think about the fact that I'm gay literally every single day. It defines who I love, the TV shows and comics I find myself drawn to, how I relate to society, what my politics are, how I view myself- my insecurities and my pride. It defines how people treat me. And It defines the community I find myself in, who my friends are and what my dating pool is- and our communities absolutely come to define us as people.

And this idea that our sexuality shouldn't define us is also a bullshit double-standard, because straight characters are allowed to have their sexuality define them all the time and nobody complains about it. straight people in the real world too. Straight people talk about their sexuality *all the time* and yet nobody complains that they are "letting" it define them. The only reason straight people don't realize how much your sexuality defines you is because you're all surrounded by people just like you. And when I see people say that gay characters like Ellie can't be too in-your-face, that her sexuality should be "sublte" like some kind of footnote in the textbook of her life, all I see is heterosexuals being uncomfortable.


2. Gay people are a community and subculture, and we have shared practices that we use to express our identites- the way we dress for example. Yes, it's true that clothing is inherently neutral and anybody can wear what they want- but it seems that whenever gay people find a way to express themselves in a way that becomes a shared marker of queerness between us, y'all are complaining about "stereotypes." We can't let certain hairstyles, ways of dressing, etc. becomes markers of queerness, you say, lest we perpetuate stereotypes. But these "stereotypes" aren't just made up stuff, these are real queer people who are adopting styles of presentation to celebrate ourselves. I spend so much time in lesbian circles and so many girls proudly wear flannel as a way to express their sexuality, talking about how gay their fashion is. And yeah, of course plenty of queer women don't wear flannel and dress in ways you moght consider "straight." And no matter how you dress doesn't literally define your sexuality and you should dress however you like. But the fact is that for a sizable portion of the LGBT population, certain things become something we positively mark as being "gay" and for a lot of gay people that becomes a really important part of expressing themselves and loving themselves. And when we talk about these things we love that have become part of our shared gay culture, you get concerned straight people coming in warning us "But clothing and hobbies and music and hair don't have a sexuality!! Stop perpetuating stereotypes!" And you might be well-intentioned in that, but I can't help but feel this is another example of straight people being uncomfortable with us and expressing that discomfort in progressive language.

Good post.
Sums up my feelings on the hypocrisy when it comes to gay characters in general.
You have people talking about how gay characters shouldn't wear their sexuality on their sleeve but you have NUMEROUS video game, movie, tv show characters who are womanizer's or hopeless romantics, etc.
But as soon as their gay its a problem when they remotely express themselves.
It's hilarious, really.

 

[psyfi]

You guys are banned but I hope you're lurking the thread. Do you ever stop and think about how stupid this line of thinking is? Like just think about how selfish it is.

I'm willing to give people who pull this rhetoric the benefit of the doubt (at first). Like, maybe they really don't get it. They're probably very privileged, and have never had to think much about what it's like to be almost completely unrepresented in media (and especially games). Hopefully this thread can be a learning experience for them.