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The Nerd Crew: A Pop Culture Podcast by Red Letter Media

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MattKeil

BIGTIME TV MOGUL #2
Empire, on the other hand, doesn't rely on any future films for its own plot to make sense. It assumes that you've watched the previous entry in the series, but that's all. It doesn't bring up any plot points for RotJ to explain. Sure, Vader may have revealed himself to be Luke's father, and Han may be frozen in carbonite, but the heroes are safe and are ready to go rescue Han.

Except Han is one of the heroes (the most popular of the protagonists, in fact) and is very much not safe. Empire was roundly criticized at the time of release for being too dark, too reliant on its cliffhanger ending, and assuming too much that its audience would go see a third movie to finish the story. Empire is a singular movie in comparison to the rest of the SW movies, but it is very much not standalone in any sense. This is one of its strengths to those who grew up with it, but it was not considered such in 1980, much like Rogue One is criticized now for expecting you to have seen one of the most widely watched motion pictures ever made.

It was the part that felt the most flagrant and masturbatory for me :( it saddens me that you're 100% correct

I was far more invested in the characters than Mike and Jay were, even thinking the last moments on scarif were poingnant, and then that fuckin red lightsaber just had to ignite at the same moment as the erections of all the Kylo Rens in the audience...

Oh give me a break. That whole sequence is done like a horror movie. You're not supposed to be rooting or cheering for Vader in that sequence. I don't care if a bunch weirdos do, either. It's an effective sequence and it only adds to Vader's malevolence in the subsequent films.
 

xevis

Banned
If that's the case, Empire fails miserably as a movie. It begins with characters we're only properly introduced to in the preceding movie, and opens with Luke talking to a ghost with no real explanation and using magic powers we have no idea how he got (and are never really told the origin of, because ANH showed his introduction to it).
...
It's because of its place as part of a trilogy that we forgive these glaring issues. In fact, these cliffhangers and plot holes are part of what makes it so great--we know what's come before and we know to expect answers in the movie that follows.

Rubbish. Empire begins in-media-res but it doesn't suffer for it. It gives you as much context as it necessary and then gets on with the job of being a fucking movie. It's great. The ending is great. All of it, great. Not every movie needs to spell everything out for you and not every movie needs an ending that puts a bow on everything.
 
Vader sequence was the only great part of the movie, and one great part doesn't save the rest of it. I liked TFA more and my opinion on that movie is a huge fat MEH.
 

Alandrus

Banned
Best thing about Rogue One was reaffirming that TFA was pretty fun movie after all and not just some nostalgia trip.

WHAAAAAAT? Ep7 was a huge nostalgia trip. I mean, apart from it being a replicated ep4. Every significant detail of the film was a nostalgic piece. Kylo talking to a Vader Helmet, Rei and Finn stumble upon the Millennium Falcon, Rei and Finn stumble into Han Solo and Chewie, Kylo Ren wears a suit to emulate Vader, the weapon of the film is a giant death star that they compare to the actual death star, (a nice symbol for what the movie is), etc and etc. Movie is about finding Luke Skywalker and ends with a look on his face.

What part of that movie wasn't a nostalgic trip?
 
WHAAAAAAT? Ep7 was a huge nostalgia trip. I mean, apart from it being a replicated ep4. Every significant detail of the film was a nostalgic piece. Kylo talking to a Vader Helmet, Rei and Finn stumble upon the Millennium Falcon, Rei and Finn stumble into Han Solo and Chewie, Kylo Ren wears a suit to emulate Vader, the weapon of the film is a giant death star that they compare to the actual death star, (a nice symbol for what the movie is), etc and etc. Movie is about finding Luke Skywalker and ends with a look on his face.

What part of that movie wasn't a nostalgic trip?

It is a nostalgic trip but it's also a fun movie in it's own right. Unlike Rogue One that is another nostalgic trip with all the adventure and fun sucked out.
 

Afrocious

Member
Though I agree with some of your points, the situation between TFA and Empire is pretty different, and I have the same problem as him with TFA. The main issue separating them is that TFA relies on future films to have it's own plot make sense. Whenever I bring up Rey using the Jedi Mind Trick (one of the worst scenes in the film in my opinion, and the main reason I can see why some consider her a Mary Sue, since, my god, that felt like it came straight from a bad fanfic). It constantly teases you about the characters' pasts, telling you that you'll get answers... as long as you pay roughly 40$ to see both films in theaters. Rey's vision is probably the worst offender in that regard.

Empire, on the other hand, doesn't rely on any future films for its own plot to make sense. It assumes that you've watched the previous entry in the series, but that's all. It doesn't bring up any plot points for RotJ to explain. Sure, Vader may have revealed himself to be Luke's father, and Han may be frozen in carbonite, but the heroes are safe and are ready to go rescue Han. The final shot is them looking out the window at the nebula, ready and determined to get their friend back. And with that shot, you can assume that the heroes will go and make things right in the next one (which they do). Also, when Empire brings up an element of the SW lore, it usually explains it right then and there. When Darth Vader denies killing Luke's father, he doesn't just say no, he says "I am your father" as well. If TFA did that scene, it would probably just have Vader denying it, and then saying "You will never believe what actually happened to your father" when Luke throws himself off the platform, and they wait until the next film before explaining that Vader was Luke's father.

That's the main difference between the two, and why TFA fails. When Empire expands the lore, it fills in as much as possible. Sure, you could wonder about the exact series of events that led to Anakin becoming Vader, but you're not wondering who actually killed Luke's father. TFA, when it expands the lore, leaves a lot of holes. How did the First Order get so powerful? Who is Rey's family? (Remember that in the OT, they never used Luke's family as a carrot stick. Anakin is explained in ANH, and when the fact that he has a sibling is revealed, the audience is told its Leia in the same movie.) It feels cheap how TFA is relying on future films to have its own make sense, while with Empire, it feels like a natural, fair progression that only relies on what the audience already knows if they've seen the previous films in the series.

Damn dude. This is a good post. I never actually compared the use of the lack of parents the main characters have (Luke and Rey) have between both movies.
 

Chichikov

Member
If that's the case, Empire fails miserably as a movie. It begins with characters we're only properly introduced to in the preceding movie, and opens with Luke talking to a ghost with no real explanation and using magic powers we have no idea how he got (and are never really told the origin of, because ANH showed his introduction to it).

It ends on one of the biggest cliffhangers in cinema history, with Luke having just discovered that the big bad guy is his dad, Han is maybe dead and is being given to somebody named Jabba we've never met, Lando is god-knows-where, and the Empire's power and reach are growing unchecked.

It's because of its place as part of a trilogy that we forgive these glaring issues. In fact, these cliffhangers and plot holes are part of what makes it so great--we know what's come before and we know to expect answers in the movie that follows.

But on its own (the metric by which you say TFA is crap), if viewed by someone who had never seen ANH or ROTJ, Empire is an unsatisfying and confusing mess.
I don't think Empire fails as a movie, but I do think that the fact that its story doesn't stand on its own, that it starts in a weird place that requires knowledge of the first movie while at the same time wiping most of what was achieved in it and ends in a cliffhanger at a rather random place in the story are definitely flaws, and not minor ones.
 

nomis

Member
Oh give me a break. That whole sequence is done like a horror movie. You're not supposed to be rooting or cheering for Vader in that sequence. I don't care if a bunch weirdos do, either. It's an effective sequence and it only adds to Vader's malevolence in the subsequent films.

This isn't some niche subset of the audience. There are a ton of men especially around my age who thought Vader was badass in the OT when the special editions came out and then were gifted by Lucas with Anakin as a protagonist in prequels that was around their age. They get off on the power fantasy and it's not two weirdos in the back row.

Kylo Ren was also a clear satire of these darth bros.
 

Zabka

Member
Oh give me a break. That whole sequence is done like a horror movie. You're not supposed to be rooting or cheering for Vader in that sequence. I don't care if a bunch weirdos do, either. It's an effective sequence and it only adds to Vader's malevolence in the subsequent films.

You must have never seen a slasher movie in a theater.
 
First few pages of this thread were pretty funny.

Especially the part where I realized what my real life epitaph is probably going to look like:

Wait, bobby died? Fuck.

Can't say I agreed with him too often, but his long and informative posts about Star Wars, as well as his overall passion for the series, were a beacon of positivity in this forum filled with so much negativity.

RIP
He just got banned.

aEsfzTj.jpg
 

jtb

Banned
RLM has kind of become the thing that I always thought their prequel reviews were mocking. Which is fine, but not really for me.

Ah well. We'll always have the episode 1 review.
 
RLM has kind of become the thing that I always thought their prequel reviews were mocking. Which is fine, but not really for me.

Ah well. We'll always have the episode 1 review.

What were the prequel reviews suppose to be mocking other than Star Wars and old people?
 

120v

Member
just when i thought there wouldn't be much mileage in lampooning these things... they deliver again. already
 

jviggy43

Member
"I personally loved this movie"

"Oh no rich, were not doing that yet, the movie isn't out"

"Well I personally loved this title"
 
That was too perfect. I was in tears when Rich was looking at the "Rey" figure. I was laughing so hard I had to pause the video. It was that bad. I think the only other time a RLM video made me do that was when they were talking about Dom DeLuise on Plinketto #2. It was great. Me, personally, I loved it.

Also, does anyone else think Mike made the Nerd Box and Geekcrate himself, and had Rich open it without letting him know what was in it, and they just filmed Rich's reaction?
 

Anung

Un Rama
Sorry to interrupt but I absolutely loved this video. I mean I've not sat down to actually watch this due to my crippling diabetes but as a creator of exclusive content on Neogaf if this replaced half in the bag then that would be VERY COOL.

(Jay is too method at this shit. He's too good at this.)
 
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