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[redacted] Hollow Knight

nkarafo

Member
Yeah space jump and the wall jumps were some of the hardest things to execute imo and unnecessarily so. I played through the game on Wii u and basically I had to get the space jump down to timing in order for me to do it consecutively and even then I was still open to execution errors. Wall Jump I actually had to double tap and use analog because it was easier to shift direction for me. I assume that the wii u dpad wasn't too good for me during that section.

I agree that the controls are dated, and at times overly difficult to execute some of the harder skills.
But what if the controls are better on the real SNES, on a CRT, like how it was supposed to be played?

Modern LCD TVs and console emulation add some input lag. Maybe it's much better on the real thing. Just a thought, it's been decades since the last time i played it outside of emulation.
 

Tain

Member
I would have a really, really hard time getting over the aesthetic design of the characters and creatures in this game.
 
Hollow Knight looks interesting enough that I've added it to my Steam wishlist, and will maybe buy it later this year. Environments look great, but I'm not digging the character or enemy designs. Judging from an early-game gameplay video I watched, it looks fun, but I'm not really seeing anything that makes it stand out quality-wise from the pack of other good, solid indie "metroidvanias" (Guacamelee, Valdis Story, Axiom Verge, etc). Which means that I doubt Hollow Knight will come anywhere close to truly outstanding games like Super Metroid, Metroid Fusion, Symphony of the Night, Circle of the Moon and Aria of Sorrow. Those games have interesting, captivating worlds...whereas the worlds in most indie metroidvanias (even the ones with good level design) are rather forgettable. It takes more than a distinctive and/or pretty art style to make a world feel fascinating.

In terms of atmosphere, Momodora: Reverie Under the Moonlight is the only game of this kind that I've played that manages to come close to Super Metroid, Fusion, and SotN. (But Momodora falls well short in some other key areas.)
Truth to be told... A lot of those aforementioned qualities you're looking for aren't immediately evident in Hollow Knight; partially due to the nature of those genre components innately being on the subtle side and partially due to how the game gradually lifts the veil. That said: I do agree with you that most of the recent batch in the genre haven't quite nailed the big picture, often sacrificing the finer details that help make Metroidvanias stand out in favour of streamlined design. By default there isn't anything inherently wrong opting for the latter as a developer, but when executed to the extent Ori / Guacamelee / Outland / Headlander / Momodora IV / etc. did, they end up veering closer to action-platformer territory rather than being truly comparable to classic Metroid or Castlevania entries. Which, again, isn't unquestionably bad depending on what a given person liked from those titles.

Hollow Knight on the other hand feels like the odd one out to me when placed alongside its contemporary counter-parts, in a positive way. I've articulated my thoughts on this elsewhere, should you want explicit clarification:



Kept an eye on this one ever since its reveal, but I was taken aback over just how good this one turned out. More than the majority of other of its modern-day peers in the genre, Hollow Knight nails the essence of what makes a Metroidvania stand out. Recent-ish games like Ori & The Blind Forest, Guacamelee, Outland or Momodora are far removed from being bad games and even excel in different areas Hollow Knight does not primarily focus on, but to me they've always resembled pseudo-action platformers rather than iterating on a genre that innately instils wanderlust, given their heavily guided nature and subsequently removing a gratifying sense of exploration.

Hollow Knight, much like Breath of the Wild shortly before it released, understood the importance of leaving players to their own devices. You're dropped into a massive, interconnected and densely packed world to explore by your own choosing - one finely crafted to potentially allow for wildly differing routes between multiple players - and it does not hold your hand in the process. By the developer's own admission, Hallownest is a playground where 60% of its content is entirely optional and this in a game where the map system deliberately leaves out information you'd otherwise find in a Metroidvania, like pinpointing your current location... or even initially showing the next portion of the map. What could easily be perceived as a genuine flaw works here, because the lack thereof is substituted by ample landmarks on the map itself as well as sufficient in-game signposting (sometimes literally) as you're gallivanting about. It is not an adventure devoid of guidance, especially if you want a nudge in the right direction to continue treading the main path, but you either have to specifically seek these other means out via the correct NPC's or through other optional methods (which require a minor balancing act) without it being forced down your throat. It's a withdrawn trek if the player wants it to be and Hollow Knight's kingdom of Hallownest is very much built to respectfully keep this sort of immersive, borderline isolated experience in mind.

banner_pics_0003_3.jpg

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What made traversing through Hallownest such a joy for me, is how rewarding it is to meander off to the wayside. Hollow Knight does not fall for common trappings that are almost ubiquitous (to a fault) to the genre by now; unlike even the classics such as Super Metroid, side-collectibles do not largely consist out of generic health / magic / ammo upgrades for starters. In fact, those are surprisingly kept to a minimum! Instead you meet new charismatic faces who could prove valuable, new objectives or events that adequately encourage revisits, new tools which could help create a specialized build due to a Materia-lite sort of system, sighting one of the 130+ enemy types tied to a contextually appropriate bestiary and more. Benches, known as the de facto save points, are also relatively scarce without feeling too rare in number. Significant shortcuts are fairly prominent as well; fast travel stations need to be earned and there exist a healthy number of wrap-arounds that tightly weave together large chunks of the overarching layout so that areas don't feel disposable in the long run. Most of these elements, but especially the latter two, are a stark contrast to how most of the aforementioned modern-day Metroidvanias handled their mechanical or structural vision. It's quite frankly refreshing!

To top it all off: the setting just feels wholly cohesive. The presentation is already top notch in between the outstanding soundtrack + audio design, the cutesy yet somber hand-drawn aesthetic, the slick interface and a puzzle-like narrative that isn't excessively opaque, but what really drives this point home is Hollow Knight's attention to detail. Oft negligible yet frequently employed for the sake of believability or visible culture, these touches (be it on your character or elsewhere) demonstrate the craftsmanship put into this game down to even miniscule elements you wouldn't think twice about anymore by today's standards. I mean, shit; trivial as it may be, there's even a plausible explanation as to why money drops automatically gravitate towards you should you have the corresponding perk equipped:

geobugs_smalltvkf9.gif


Given the meager crowdfunded budget the bite-sized development team asked for, their debut title is nothing short of a legitimately impressive accomplishment.
 

Fledz

Member
What's the deal with the Switch version? I thought this was meant to be out already. Would be the perfect type of game for that.

How much play time are people getting out of it?
 

popokarimu

Neo Member
I thought the same as you but I just purchased this and played about an hour and you really need to see it in motion. Everything moves and animates beautifully,reminds me alot of Ori in that stills and videos don't do the art style justice. Really really enjoying it so far.

I'll second this. I couldn't stand the look of the game in videos and pictures but I bought it anyways a few days ago because of all the praise here. Now that I've spent a good 5-6 hours with it I can say I love the way it looks and moves in-game, the videos on youtube, gifs, and pics really don't do it justice.
 
it's a pretty good metroidvania, but better than super metroid? Nah

but that's all subjective of course, after all, my favorite metroidvania ever made is La-Mulana!

why? Because it add real puzzle on top of the exploration and new abilities
 

Hexer06

Member
Posted in the OT as well, but wanted to say after I saw this thread, you made me buy it. The comparisons to Ori had me very intrigued. It better be good! :p
 
Op is Joking.

I mean it is a good game.
But saying something like that means that you don't understand metroid.

First the music in the game doesnt come close to metroid
Second the Art is almost the same thing over the whole world. It also doesnt give the immersive feeling of what super metroid does.

In terms of gameplay, this one comes closer to castlevania sotn than metroid.
Metroid still have much more gameplay to it.

So no.
You bring up a good point

There are thousands of metroidvanias, but almost no pure metroid experiences. That's why I've yet to find anything better than Super Metroid or Zero Mission.
 
it's a pretty good metroidvania, but better than super metroid? Nah

but that's all subjective of course, after all, my favorite metroidvania ever made is La-Mulana!

why? Because it add real puzzle on top of the exploration and new abilities

La-Mulana is my favorite "Metroidvania" game. If anything challenges Super Metroid in my mind, it's that.
 

Maximo

Member
Really glad this thread was made the game deserves way more attention, Symphony of the Night was my favourite out of this genre but hollow knight might have overtaken it. Not 100% completed yet but man I love everything about it.
 
Really glad this thread was made the game deserves way more attention, Sympathy of the Night was my favourite out of this genre but hollow knight might have overtaken it. Not 100% completed yet but man I love everything about it.

Did Weird Al help with this one?
 

Elixist

Member
love this game alot, i need to get back and do more optional stuff, just havent been gamin much the last while. i said in the ot that probably in my top 10 goat, at least for single player stuff. the art is just fantastic as are the npc's, and that feel of dread that dark souls 1 could give ya of being hella lost and not wanting to lose your currency heh. very good difficulty curve, simple solid combat, great secrets. enemy variety is way strong. its a game that understands things can be slow and quiet at times, they dont feel the need to hand hold and bombast you constantly, something alot of games miss on imo. i like the map systems, bench placement, forces you to use your memory and make things more intense at times.

cons for me, music could be better (more impactful at times) spell system is eh for me.. i could do with a new design for that. could be more things to spend geo on.
 

Maximo

Member
30 hours for a metroid-like? What the fuck? Feels like that's way too long to devote to a game like this.

Like the art though.

Also its Definitely not 30 hours long Im almost 20 hours and almost to the final boss with true ending, 100% is probably close to 30 hours.
 
My bad quick mobile auto correct.

You should have kept it. I love it.

I actually sat there and started to wonder if I was having a Mandela Effect moment. I had to look it up so that my world didn't start to fall apart. It's already cracked after the Berenstein Bears trauma...
 

Xiao Hu

Member
I hope they bring it over to handhelds because I've noticed that I can't play these kind games on big screans anymore. Would also love a hard copy like Limited Run Games do.
 

jb1234

Member
On the plus side, maybe people will come in with a more open mind now. It's always a risky prospect comparing a new IP to a beloved classic.

The advantage of the thread title is that it at least got people to click and now, maybe they'll try out the game. Removing it just fosters confusion and was a bad call.
 
The advantage of the thread title is that it at least got people to click and now, maybe they'll try out the game. Removing it just fosters confusion and was a bad call.

Not really, I was avoiding the thread until this very moment because I wanted to avoid metroid post battles.
 

Dark_castle

Junior Member
I don't like the art style honestly. It felt like it's trying way too hard to look artsy and stylized, but I think I should check out it. The last metroidvania I played was Valdis Story and that was fantastic. Itching to immerse myself in a new one.
 

MattKeil

BIGTIME TV MOGUL #2
All the folks not feelin' the art of the game is tearing at my heart. The game's gorgeous.

The execution of the art style is top notch, but I really don't like the art style. It could actually be better than Super Metroid and I still wouldn't like it as much as Super Metroid because I don't like looking at it.
 

Vertti

Member
I absolute adore Hollow Knight. It's a really solid game that does so much right. At times it felt it could be in my top10 goat list but in the end vastness of world was it's biggest strength and weakness at the same time. i enjoyed getting lost and finding new places but in the end hunting secrets and walking the same corridors over and over again started feeling taxing.

Super Metroid on the other hand. 10 for me doesn't mean that a game is perfect. There is no such a thing. But it means a game must be a really enjoyable and memorable and Super Metroid is truly that. Yeah there are newer games with tighter controls but none other game has the ambience, atmosphere and feel of loneliness like Super Metroid with such a memorable set pieces from beginning to end with great secrets, fantastic boss battles and incredible soundtrack that paints the right atmosphere better than any game ever. Only thing that's better is Metroid Prime because it made an impossible to possible by turning a great 2D experience into at least as good 1st person experience against all odds.

So yeah Hollow Knight is goty material but Super Metroid is a goat game.
 

FoxSpirit

Junior Member
I want to say this is my favourite Metroid style game since Super Metroid. And I' ve played about all Metroidvanias there are.

What makes it special is it's immense sense of exploration and interesting rewards in hidden places. A very cool lore and a great way you explore it. Amazing sights abound. Shrewd characters.

That said, the late game is a challenge. But mastering it is immensly satisfying, the most of any Metroid game.

As apparent, I seriously love it :)
 

Haunted

Member
What's the deal with the Switch version? I thought this was meant to be out already. Would be the perfect type of game for that.
Not supposed to be out already, planned for release in 2017.

But yeah, I'd love to have more info on the eventual Switch version (price, performance being the biggest ones) because right now I'm still torn whether I should just take the plunge on Steam immediately. Well, I'm sure we'll get that kind of info closer to release.
 

gelf

Member
Hollow Knight deserves every bit of praise coming it's way. I expected just another indie Metroidvania which would be fine but it surpassed any expectations I had and it certainly deserves to be in the conversation alongside the best in the genre.

Saddens me that so many are bashing the art style. Game looks gorgeous.
 
It's only that long if you want it to be. Over half of the game's content is optional. I finished it in 28 hours but easily could have been done in 15. I honestly didn't think it would sustain its length either but it does, mostly through sheer variety of the areas you explore and how it doles out abilities.

The critical path of the game can be beaten in much less. Something like 60% of the game is optional content meant for exploring the lore, gaining more abilities, fighting tough bosses and experiencing a different ending.

I think if you just mainline the story it can be done in a similar time as a SM.

People have games like Ori and Guacamelee, which don't even deserve to be called Metroidvania, if they want short linear playtimes. Hollow Knight can be mainlined for an extremely short time, but the breadth of secrets and content is four times that.

More than half the content in Hollow Knight is optional.

Thanks for filing me in - genuinely didn't know. I'm definitely going to pick it up for myself down the line - only played briefly at a mate's house.
 

Bboy AJ

My dog was murdered by a 3.5mm audio port and I will not rest until the standard is dead
If opinions are like assholes, you need to start using some baby wipes one that one.
It looks like a flash game. Terrible art style. Really, really ugly and uninspired. It probably plays great but it looks like amateur hour. It's fine if you like it. I don't.
 

Creamium

shut uuuuuuuuuuuuuuup
Hmm this would be perfect for the Switch. Wishlisted it on Steam but I may get it on Switch instead. I'm a sucker for any metroidvania so I'm immediately interested in this, however I must echo others: the art style is horrendous.
 

Fantastapotamus

Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
I don't think the art style looks bad, but it certainly also doesn't look good to me.

That (judging from the videos I saw) it keeps the saw Blue/Black theme going the entire time doesn't help.
 

RexNovis

Banned
It looks like a flash game. Terrible art style. Really, really ugly and uninspired. It probably plays great but it looks like amateur hour. It's fine if you like it. I don't.

What the hell? I mean I could understand thinking it's ugly because it doesn't fit your tastes aesthetically but there is absolutely no way anyone could see this art style and claim it's "uninspired." as in lacking in inspiration or deravitive. That's not an opinion it's an alternative fact.
 
Shouldn't be too difficult in theory for a game released in 2017 to surpass Super Metroid in the same genre. But interesting indeed

"It should not be difficult to write a better book than The Great Gatsby in 2017".
"It should not be difficult to film a better movie than Citizen Kane in 2017".
"It should not be difficult to paint a better painting than the Mona Lisa in 2017".

I hate to inform you that your theory seems to be broken...
For the dense, I'm not saying Super Metroid is comparable to these, just highlighting the absurdity of the statement.
 
I can understand people disliking the visuals because it reminds them of a flash game, which in turn, makes it feel "cheap" to them. There are similar sentiments towards The Binding of Isaac if you look at which style is preferred between the original or the "pixel art" version.
 
Easily the best metroidvania I've played. The "organic Gothic" atmosphere and aesthetic, the mood, the enemy variety, the charm and personality that oozes from every NPC and location, the exploration and sense of scale, the satisfying combat, the well-written cryptic yet compelling narrative and dialogue, the expertly-paced dripfeed of secrets and new mechanics that allow for something new and interesting to reward your journeys into unknown territory

It may not best Metroid but it's easily one of the best entries in the genre. It certainly deserves more attention

It is jawdropping that they accomplished all this on a 90k budget

It looks like a flash game. Terrible art style. Really, really ugly and uninspired. It probably plays great but it looks like amateur hour. It's fine if you like it. I don't.
I'd love to see what Flash games people are playing that they can say this looks like an amatuer Flash game. Seriously, that statement boggles the mind, and I play Flash and freeware games on a regular basis
 

jett

D-Member
It looks like a flash game. Terrible art style. Really, really ugly and uninspired. It probably plays great but it looks like amateur hour. It's fine if you like it. I don't.

It doesn't look like a flash game at all. All of the animation is hand-drawn and looks great.

I really have no idea what you're talking about, nor do I care to know.
 
Not supposed to be out already, planned for release in 2017.

But yeah, I'd love to have more info on the eventual Switch version (price, performance being the biggest ones) because right now I'm still torn whether I should just take the plunge on Steam immediately. Well, I'm sure we'll get that kind of info closer to release.
Get it on Steam. Given the state of the initial PC release, there's no telling whether the Switch port will be haunted by poor frame pacing and whether they'll be able (due to possible Nintendo policies or otherwise) to quickly patch it. Team Cherry turned it around for PC and significantly reduced it for that version in a short amount of time, but yeah.

All the folks not feelin' the art of the game is tearing at my heart. The game's gorgeous.
Dito. Having different preferences et al is fine since it is heavily stylized, but anyone who ignorantly says it looks like an amateuristic flash game is bonkers.

I don't think the art style looks bad, but it certainly also doesn't look good to me.

That (judging from the videos I saw) it keeps the saw Blue/Black theme going the entire time doesn't help.
It doesn't. The Easy Allies video doesn't even show 5% of the game.
 

Maximo

Member
It looks like a flash game. Terrible art style. Really, really ugly and uninspired. It probably plays great but it looks like amateur hour. It's fine if you like it. I don't.

Reminds me of when some people thought Mob Psycho 100 looked ugly.
 
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