efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
I'll tell you what, if you can convince me any person is capable of believing in such a mechanism without it having even the slightest affect on how they spend their time on earth, I'll play along.
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How do Atheist societies approach death?
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I'll tell you what, if you can convince me any person is capable of believing in such a mechanism without it having even the slightest affect on how they spend their time on earth, I'll play along.
Monocle
Member
That's rather the point, I think.
Another way to look at this (if you are teaching a child about the afterlife) is, if you never tell them they are promised an afterlife, then what will they be missing? They won't automatically expect to get an afterlife unless that idea is fed to them.
If I tell you that I'll give you a million dollars tomorrow, that sets an expectation. If I don't follow through, you get disappointed. If I never set that expectation for you, it's impossible to get disappointed.
Sure, they may hear about the afterlife from someone at school or something but generally they will trust their parents. If you don't promise a child heaven, you most likely won't have to deal with their disappointment in discovering it's probably not real.
If I tell you that I'll give you a million dollars tomorrow, that sets an expectation. If I don't follow through, you get disappointed. If I never set that expectation for you, it's impossible to get disappointed.
Sure, they may hear about the afterlife from someone at school or something but generally they will trust their parents. If you don't promise a child heaven, you most likely won't have to deal with their disappointment in discovering it's probably not real.
SocksAndShoes
Banned
Um, reality is a factor in this debate.
That recent Netflix movie about what happens after death touches upon this question, it's a really interesting watch.
Reread what I was responding to. You don't need a God for the possibility of an afterlife to exist. To be clear, I am an atheist and a meterialist, so I don't believe any of this stuff myself.
The rabbit hole is pretty deep, buddy. Atheism is a colloquial umbrella term for humanism, primarily in reaction to the dominance of theistic religion. But technically, the term only has to do with denying deities, and not spirituality or even religion.
Holy Order Sol
Member
Not really. Not having kids and/or not making any sort of lasting impact on society is perfectly acceptable.
me personally.. death is inevitable, and amoral. I don't want a grave, if something HAS to be done with my body (i.e. can't just leave me at the hospital), cremate me and toss my ashes somewhere. there is no after life. Just like I exist now, there is nothing for this consciousness when it dies. Not emptiness, not blackness.. just nothing.
I find the people who fear or become depressed over death are those feeling of little worth, value, significance, or accomplishment with their lives. Me, I've tried to have and lead a good life... will leave many people with good memories, some people with bad memories, and when I go existence will continue on the same as it has when so many I have loved already passed.
All of this to me makes much more sense and is way more pragmatic than trying to believe that you get a second chance after you die. Don't waste your first chance, then you don't need to dream about a second chance.
I find the people who fear or become depressed over death are those feeling of little worth, value, significance, or accomplishment with their lives. Me, I've tried to have and lead a good life... will leave many people with good memories, some people with bad memories, and when I go existence will continue on the same as it has when so many I have loved already passed.
All of this to me makes much more sense and is way more pragmatic than trying to believe that you get a second chance after you die. Don't waste your first chance, then you don't need to dream about a second chance.
Indeed. If you don't have a goal to leave a legacy, then who cares if you're forgotten? Certainly not you.
demosthenes
Member
I don't have to deal with teaching to children yet but when annoying relatives decide to try to have a religious fight and tell me i'm wrong, it eventually gets to "WELL WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU DIE". My response is, "I'll die and be cremated", and that's that.
I find it difficult to even think about death. Since its very unlikely that i would be even aware that i have died when i eventually do.. You simply cease to exist and return to whatever you were before you are even born. So living life to the fullest is pretty much the only important goal. This did have a somewhat of a side effect on me though that is me increasingly not caring what happens in the distant future. As far as i am personally concerned this life is all i have and all i will ever have and i made my piece with that a long time ago.
That's basically it. I really don't see why this is such a big deal? I never had religion in my life apart from the crap that was shoved down my throat every morning in school assembly. I lost loved ones, I accepted that nothing lasts forever and to make the most of my life while I'm here - and to celebrate their life and not dwell on their death. If anything, it helped me. I find people (including my wife) who grew up with religion actually find it more difficult to let go.
I've always thought that. Surely if they truly believe in an afterlife then why not be celebrating that they've finally made it in to heaven. although as there is no time in heaven technically they were already there before they died anyway.
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
I always thought atheism implied a belief in rationalism - that there is no point believing in anything that cannot be observed or influenced to some extent from within our perceived reality.
Then again a couple months ago I met a girl who described herself as secular yet believed in the existence of God so what the hell do I know?
Edit: also, your source says the exact opposite - that atheism is characterized by a rejection of (any) religious belief.
NervousXtian
Thought Emoji Movie was good. Take that as you will.
We do, our bodies go back into the ground, and help to sprout new life. We do live on though, in the memories of those we touched while living. So we aren't forgotten, and our legacy lives on. Part of me is in my children, just as part of my father and mother, my grandmothers and fathers are in me.
It's the circle of life.
Being secular can mean you believe in god but don't follow an established religion, ie Islam, Catholicism, Baptist, etc.
It's the circle of life.
Being secular can mean you believe in god but don't follow an established religion, ie Islam, Catholicism, Baptist, etc.
SocksAndShoes
Banned
Right but if something exists, it's part of reality. Just because we don't interact with something doesn't mean it isn't part of our reality.
Dark Matter is real and part of our reality, but the likelihood of living humans interacting with it is extremely low.
True Savior
Member
If you die, you die.
The creative amongst us can also leave an artistic legacy. My music will forever live on iTunes and Spotify after I'm gone (although still nobody will listen to it).
When talking about god or afterlives, anything is free game.
Using reality to construct an idea of either of those is only human.
Goldfishking
Member
Man, some of you people are brutal to kids. Yo little timmy, when you die there's nothing. DEAL WITH IT.
I think it should be explained the same to all kids. Don't actually give them the answer but educate them on what people believe. Some believe you go to heaven, some believe there is nothing. But we don't actually know.
You don't have to blow a children's mind everytime they ask a hard question, you don't even have to give kids the absolute answer. The best way to educate children is to give them the information and let them figure it out on their own.
I think it should be explained the same to all kids. Don't actually give them the answer but educate them on what people believe. Some believe you go to heaven, some believe there is nothing. But we don't actually know.
You don't have to blow a children's mind everytime they ask a hard question, you don't even have to give kids the absolute answer. The best way to educate children is to give them the information and let them figure it out on their own.
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
What's it called?
I gave you the link for irreligion, which includes many things. Check the panels to the right of the page to explore it. Atheism tends to be irreligious but isn't explicitly.
Adam_Vania
Banned
and we have seen how the mind creates reality. how our senses can be altered by both internal chemistry of our brains and external factors. there have been scientific experiments in isolation chambers. we know that time can be distorted.
if we are hard materialists and think that matter creates reality (and not the other way around) then we must admit our matter is in a constant state of flux. reality is in a constant state of flux. as we age, we experience death often not as a sudden instant, but as a process of life. you die over your entire life, your cells die and are regenerated, the fluids and solids that comprise your body are ever-shifting. what holds it together is spirit. as the matter dies, the mind dies, the spirit dies.
i lost my grandfather to a stroke this year, and i spent an hour with him while he was alive, yet he could not swallow, he could not speak more than a word, he could look around the room, he could look at you with his eyes. that was it. but he was alive! earlier that week i was talking to him at a birthday party and now was living this disabled life. what was he experiencing? he was a Catholic, he had a church back at his home in Ohio, and he was involved with the community. if you spend your entire life with a culture, and there are these symbols and images and stories that you hear over and over, is it really that unthinkable that a person in such a medical state would experience a heavenly bliss? they say your life flashes before your eyes before you die. what else does? am i going to re-live going to see "Return of the Jedi" with my parents before they got divorced? anyways my family is atheist and we had a funeral sans body and priests w just family talking and sharing about his life. but my mom respected his community and his spirituality and also gave him a proper church funeral back home. it was important to the people who knew him. this is tolerance. death is a personal thing.
the (Western-written) intro to the Tibetan Book of the Dead says that whatever you were raised in as a child, that's what you will experience. if you are a Tibetan monk who learned about these deities and this cosmology, you will relive it. if you are a Christian, you will see that. and so on. it is a personal thing. Death is a personal experience. psychologically, as humans we tend to fixate on images and symbols, and these express the un-expressible on a cultural level. as an atheist i think it is important to read up on Jung and explore the concept of archetypes. he has written some interesting books on Christianity from that standpoint, from a psychological and cultural standpoint. imo Jungian archetypes are an open and rational atheist-and-religious-friendly interpretation of spirituality. it is a way for the atheist to understand the importance of religion's symbolic language.
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
But you must be following some kind of philosophy that is affected by your belief in a god, right? Isn't that a religion?
Will do. Thanks for the links.
No one's actions or words have meaning due to eventually everyone being like before they were born. After the heat death of the universe, then it's just like the universe never happened and it would be just as well if it never did. I could lie and say that's not true, but at least heaven is a comforting lie. It's a lie that makes sense. Heaven being good makes sense. Non-Existence being good and not making everything pointless makes no sense.
Seriously, yeah. Mean parents.
Having grown up as an atheist, I've always thought it was somewhat tragic that people teach their kids that when someone dies, they go somewhere else and everyone will end up together someday. It masks having to deal with loss when they've basically just gone on a vacation. It sounds nice, but I'd rather deal with the loss and come to accept the fact that I'll never see the person again.
On the flipside, I've never had to worry about death. I've never had to worry about whether or not I'll end up in this place or that. One day I'll just stop existing. It's comforting.
On the flipside, I've never had to worry about death. I've never had to worry about whether or not I'll end up in this place or that. One day I'll just stop existing. It's comforting.
Why do you make it how to be some horrible, traumatizing shit. Children deal with this just fine.
No ? Plenty of people believe in some form of "higher power" without it being associated to rules or whatever.
Definitions can get tricky since lots of people say Buddhism is not a religion because it lacks a defined creation mythos
The Discovery.
Seeing Jason Segel play a serious role was weird, but the movie was good.
The twist is great, so be warned do not click if you plan on watching: when you die, you
go back to the moment of your biggest regret so you can make different choice. So its like a second chance to live out a better life.
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
I find that hard to believe - what point is there in holding on to a belief if it serves us no purpose whatsoever?
Muppet of a Man
Member
It is if you don't care about a legacy. If you want one or want to "live forever", those are your only 2 real options.
SocksAndShoes
Banned
Reality is not just stuff that humans can see, hear, or imagine. It's a state of existence.
Something existing = that something is part of reality, regardless of how much or little we can perceive it.
RazorbackDB
Member
I like this quote from Richard Dawkins, even if I don't always agree with what he says, it makes me think my life is worth something, just because of the unlikely scenario of me being born at all. Makes me think of the infinity of the universe, and how unlinkely it's to find life in another planet, just as how unlikely it is that our planet might be the only one with life, stupefying as he puts it. The vastness of the universe used to make me feel so small before but now, even if I never do anything worth a damn, I just think of my life as a rare tale and death it's just the great ending.
MoogleMan
Member
This. Because one you're dead, that's it. That's nothing. Death is a dreamless, wakeless sleep.
Why does everything need a purpose ? You just believe or you don't and it doesn't have to be any deeper than that.
It's pretty common here for people to be non-religious but to still believe in some "spirituality" stuff.
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
Gotta leave the house now, sorry if I missed any replies. I'll get back to this thread later! Really interesting discussions going on!
Cool, thanks!
Hmmm so the term religion is itself ill defined. Why am I not surprised?
The Discovery.
Seeing Jason Segel play a serious role was weird, but the movie was good.
Cool, thanks!
When I hear "secular" I tend to think of belief in seperation of church and state.
SocksAndShoes
Banned
Teach your children that they can affect change NOW, in the present. Thinking about how everything is meaningless due to the universe dying out is absolutely pointless and irrelevant is every way that matters. Making the world a better place NOW is not just a meaningless platitude, it's something that everyone should be striving for. Just because something will be wiped out in billions of years doesn't mean it doesn't have value in the present.
EDIT: Not to mention that heaven would be awful in reality. I'm going to sit for the rest of existence doing what exactly? Do I even get wings to float around with? Do they have volleyball courts up there or something?
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
I would assume atheistic societies would have the most peaceful view of death. By being scientifically literate, they'd be able to see that death is a continuation of process, and that there's no fixed "form" that is added or removed from anything, and this self is what makes us fear death.
I don't think that the above usually happens, though. I worry that these societies or people simply emphasize is a lack of belief in God, but still believe in dualistic assumptions that still assert a self, and thus, the fear of "nothingness as an experience" or a blankness to life seems possible. The real hoax is still held, and thus, fear is still held. They get rid of the outside Big Papa but fail to get rid of the outside "I" in awareness.
Who dies during death? This may sound like a silly question, but I am asking something nuanced. You are living and dying in every moment: millions of your cells have played this game while reading this post. Where is the fixed "I" that we get spooked about vanishing into darkness? Is it the loss of this image that gives us the heebiejeebies? An image is not a thing, it's a think; a unit of thought.
I don't think that the above usually happens, though. I worry that these societies or people simply emphasize is a lack of belief in God, but still believe in dualistic assumptions that still assert a self, and thus, the fear of "nothingness as an experience" or a blankness to life seems possible. The real hoax is still held, and thus, fear is still held. They get rid of the outside Big Papa but fail to get rid of the outside "I" in awareness.
Who dies during death? This may sound like a silly question, but I am asking something nuanced. You are living and dying in every moment: millions of your cells have played this game while reading this post. Where is the fixed "I" that we get spooked about vanishing into darkness? Is it the loss of this image that gives us the heebiejeebies? An image is not a thing, it's a think; a unit of thought.
Pretty much. And it is reflected in funerals where the life of the deceased, as well as of those still alive is mainly celebrated not mourned. You establish your legacy through the good you do for those around you.
When talking about metaphysical shit, I do not agree that existence necessarily = reality.
SocksAndShoes
Banned
So something can exist without being "real"? Is it then "fake"?
Or existing on a different plane of *AHEM* reality perhaps?
Aztechnology
Member
I'm agnostic. But I face it like this. I have no idea what if anything happen's after death and I can't change it no matter how hard I wish it to be true. I can't be worried about it all the time or I'll cease to be able to enjoy the time I do have. Fear of death is wasted time.
Muppet of a Man
Member
This quote by Carl Sagan has given me more context for and insight into the inherent value of being a living, self-aware organism that's part of the universe than any from dogmatic ideology:
You Are Viewtiful
Member
I don't see what's so "confusing" about death. I guess it's because I had relatives pass away when I was very young. You pass away, your body stops working and you lose consciousness. Everyone dies, it's just a fact of life like eating or breathing.
There are two realities. One is the subjective reality: reality filtered through our individual lenses. The other is objective reality, which we can only assume exists. Namaste.
Nah, it's corny, but I think this is the only practical outlook.
Edit: I forgot to mention that Satanism is another atheistic religion.
Nah, it's corny, but I think this is the only practical outlook.
Edit: I forgot to mention that Satanism is another atheistic religion.
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