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PoliGAF 2017 |OT4| The leaks are coming from inside the white house

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P

PBY

Banned
Ogodei said:
That's enough now. It wasn't enough in 2016 when more folks were willing to give Trump the benefit of the doubt.

Just like being the Party of No was enough for the GOP in 2010 and 2014.
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I kind of agree. I don't think it will be enough for 2020 though, and Ds should be mindful of that.
 
D

dramatis

Member
I feel like people complain more about Dem messaging than they do about Republicans at this point.

Like the ratio of how shit one side is compared to the other should elicit a roughly equal ratio of how much we should complain about one side versus the other. Yet it's like the urge to be 'balanced' always circles around to blaming the Dems or something.

Do you really think the best idea is for Dems to present a highly visible message for Republicans to attack right now or something? It seems like a lot of people just want optics and yelling loudly and not actual strategy or planning or evaluation, which take more time than coming up with feel good messages and marketing.
 
B

BlastProcessing

Member
Cesare Borgia said:
Well if Secret Service were really there, he was there.

I don't believe he was there personally but if he was LOL. Why would he need to be there, and more importantly why would his campaign manager allow it.
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My understanding is that the Secret Service was only protecting against direct threats and wasn't doing counterintel checks. Even if Trump was in the meeting, they wouldn't have run any names.

It feels most likely to me that he listened in through the comm system from his office but didn't speak. It's been well reported that he had all of his offices wired for sound.
 
P

PBY

Banned
https://newrepublic.com/article/143...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Great short opinion piece from the New Republic summing up EXACTLY how I feel with respect to Dems and Russia. Its borderline open hawkishness against a super power.

dramatis said:
I feel like people complain more about Dem messaging than they do about Republicans at this point.

Like the ratio of how shit one side is compared to the other should elicit a roughly equal ratio of how much we should complain about one side versus the other. Yet it's like the urge to be 'balanced' always circles around to blaming the Dems or something.

Do you really think the best idea is for Dems to present a highly visible message for Republicans to attack right now or something? It seems like a lot of people just want optics and yelling loudly and not actual strategy or planning or evaluation, which take more time than coming up with feel good messages and marketing.
Click to expand...

I think I just want the Dems to figure out what the fuck they actually care about and stand for, rather than "good messages and marketing" and just openly tell people what they believe in plainly. And you're right, that takes time.

The attitude reflected in the bolded is exactly how Dems will continue to lose by the way.
 
P

Poodlestrike

Banned
PBY said:
I kind of agree. I don't think it will be enough for 2020 though, and Ds should be mindful of that.
Click to expand...

I feel like they are.

Not sure where, but I listened to this interesting conversation on basically the stat you posted the other day. Basically, "the party of no" should propel us through 2018 easily enough, which means we've got 4 years to build a more comprehensive agenda for 2020. Which is good, because... this is gonna take a while. Unlike the Republicans, even when we DO come up with a compelling message, we don't have dozens of talking heads repeating it verbatim 24 hours a day on our voters' primary news source. So it'll take time to propagate. Fortunately, all signs point to Pelosi and Schumer building a pretty comprehensive policy agenda. Hopefully we can get it out there in time.
 
D

dramatis

Member
PBY said:
I think I just want the Dems to figure out what the fuck they actually care about and stand for, rather than "good messages and marketing" and just openly tell people what they believe in plainly.

The attitude reflected in the bolded is exactly how Dems will continue to lose by the way.
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The problem is that is exactly what they are doing, you're just always willfully blinding yourself to it.

Earlier there's reports that House Dems were working on "100 Hours", for all the complaints about Pelosi being shit in the camera, well guess what she is not in the camera she is behind the scenes working on what she is good at.

BUT OH NO, DEMS AREN'T MESSAGING, GET SOMEONE IN FRONT OF THE CAMERAS

You complain if they are out messaging, you complain if they aren't messaging. Ask yourself if that's not why some other people also lost, because they are so preoccupied with optics that they continue to actually do nothing but whine about other people who are actually doing something, even if it's not what they want.
 
J

jtb

Banned
dramatis said:
I feel like people complain more about Dem messaging than they do about Republicans at this point.

Like the ratio of how shit one side is compared to the other should elicit a roughly equal ratio of how much we should complain about one side versus the other. Yet it's like the urge to be 'balanced' always circles around to blaming the Dems or something.

Do you really think the best idea is for Dems to present a highly visible message for Republicans to attack right now or something? It seems like a lot of people just want optics and yelling loudly and not actual strategy or planning or evaluation, which take more time than coming up with feel good messages and marketing.
Click to expand...

Yup. This whole "Democrats don't have an agenda" is complete horseshit and is the easy way for pundits to absolve themselves from criticizing Republican's unprecedented obstructionism. You know, the whole reason why Democrats stopped passing laws after 2010.

Like, both Hillary and Sanders had tons of ideas. There's a difference between "resolve party disagreements over just how progressive that agenda is" and "DEMS HAVE NO AGENDA AT ALL"

Whatever. Agenda for 2018 and 2020 is three words: Medicare for All. End of.
 
I

IggyChooChoo

Member
Poodlestrike said:
I feel like they are.

Not sure where, but I listened to this interesting conversation on basically the stat you posted the other day. Basically, "the party of no" should propel us through 2018 easily enough, which means we've got 4 years to build a more comprehensive agenda for 2020. Which is good, because... this is gonna take a while. Unlike the Republicans, even when we DO come up with a compelling message, we don't have dozens of talking heads repeating it verbatim 24 hours a day on our voters' primary news source. So it'll take time to propagate. Fortunately, all signs point to Pelosi and Schumer building a pretty comprehensive policy agenda. Hopefully we can get it out there in time.
Click to expand...

Is it really going to take a while? It seems like every major Dem is already on board for universal health insurance plus a significant minimum wage bump. That's a great start for a platform and clear messaging. I'm not worried about selling that at all. Presumably Trump and his failures will dictate the remainder of our message.
 
P

PBY

Banned
dramatis said:
The problem is that is exactly what they are doing, you're just always willfully blinding yourself to it.

Earlier there's reports that House Dems were working on "100 Hours", for all the complaints about Pelosi being shit in the camera, well guess what she is not in the camera she is behind the scenes working on what she is good at.

BUT OH NO, DEMS AREN'T MESSAGING, GET SOMEONE IN FRONT OF THE CAMERAS

You complain if they are out messaging, you complain if they aren't messaging. Ask yourself if that's not why some other people also lost, because they are so preoccupied with optics that they continue to actually do nothing but whine about other people who are actually doing something, even if it's not what they want.
Click to expand...

Well, those are two separate issues you've identified.

1- I mean, the Dems do need to get more people out in front of cameras. It seems like that is really difficult for them, given that there's no Fox news outlet, but they need to try to be better here. That's just a visibility issue though, not an issue with a cohesive message.

2- I agree with your post. Crafting a concise, clear message takes time. I appreciate that they're trying to get this right - I just hope that they get it right.
 
W

Wilsongt

Member
Fox and Friends were running with DEMS IN DISARRAY message this morning due to something James Carville said. But I didn't listen because I didn't feel like sitting through 5 more minutes of commercials between their 90 seconds of news soundbites.

Edit:

Oh. Apparently he said that Dems will have a hard time taking back the senate, a story posted on Breitbart, Washington Examiner, and then Salon.

http://www.salon.com/2017/07/17/jam...y-very-difficult-time-taking-back-the-senate/
 
S

sc0la

Unconfirmed Member
Plumbob said:
What is the likely impact? Positive or negative?

Wouldn't barebone insurance plans increase the number of people on insurance?
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It bifurcates the risk pools all the healthy people get barebones and only sick people get comprehensive plans.
 
K

kess

Member
It's kind of weird seeing people in the real estate thread over on OT treating 150k as nothing when the average selling price for a house in my city is less than that.

FWIW, a few notes on messaging: Clinton won the city during the primary but had almost no youth support. I was heavily canvassed by Sanders supporters. Many millennial low-income whites in post industrial Pennsylvania are drifting into Alex Jones conspiracy land. I've met a distressing amount of people who are against giving their children vaccines and are ardent Trump supporters. Unlike Obama, there wasn't a great ground game for Clinton and campaign centers were concentrated near universities and the middle of cities.
 
A

AntraxSuicide

Banned
Poodlestrike said:
As with most things, you do start to hit diminishing returns. There's plenty of room for privately-managed experiments to coexist alongside regular public schools without really hurting the latter.
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sc0la said:
There are public charter schools, just FYI. Some are pretty good.

That doesn't help with the confusion tactics private school advocates like to use "choice!!1"
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I get experimentation, but at this point, I don't think there's evidence that successful charters are successful because they're charters. If you converted top charters into standard public schools, they'd likely remain good schools.
 
Z

Zolo

Member
Wilsongt said:
Oh. Apparently he said that Dems will have a hard time taking back the senate, a story posted on Breitbart, Washington Examiner, and then Salon.
Click to expand...

Well duh. Anyone who keeps up with news in that direction knows it'll be the House at play in mid-terms. Taking back the senate would be a miraculous undertaking.
 
S

sc0la

Unconfirmed Member
AntraxSuicide said:
I get experimentation, but at this point, I don't think there's evidence that successful charters are successful because they're charters. If you converted top charters into standard public schools, they'd likely remain good schools.
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That's basically my point. A good public charter is not a problem. Private any type of school is the problem for the reason you outlined. It diverts the scarce resource ($$$)
 
D

dramatis

Member
DHS Provides Additional Foreign Worker Visas on ‘Made in America’ Week
One of the first orders of business of the White House’s “Made in America” week is providing companies the opportunity to hire foreign workers under the H-2B visa program.

The Department of Homeland Security announced Monday that it will add 15,000 seasonal visas to fill H-2B non-agricultural jobs. The annual cap, set by Congress, is 66,000. In its statement, the department said that after consulting with Secretary of Labor Alexander Acosta, Secretary John Kelly “determined there are not enough qualified and willing U.S. workers available to perform temporary nonagricultural labor to satisfy the needs of some American businesses in FY 2017.”

“Congress gave me the discretionary authority to provide temporary relief to American businesses at risk of significant harm due to a lack of available seasonal workers,” Kelly said in the statement. “As a demonstration of the Administration’s commitment to supporting American businesses, DHS is providing this one-time increase to the congressionally set annual cap.”
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Very American
 
W

whyamihere

Banned
Wow. The MO GOP keeps striking out.

https://m.dailykos.com/stories/2017...os-Elections-Live-Digest-7-17?t=1500312614211

MO-Sen: On Monday, Rep. Vicky Hartzler announced that she will not challenge Democratic Sen. Claire McCaskill next year, making her the latest Missouri Republican to decide not to oppose the vulnerable senator. Hartzler will instead seek a fifth term representing the 4th Congressional District in rural western Missouri, leaving the GOP still without a notable challenger formally in the race.
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P

PBY

Banned
Futurevoid said:
Trump's golf courses and businesses aren't going to start paying Americans an actual wage when they have the DHS to add 15k more seasonal/low wage workers to the pool.;)
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Is that even the case? This kind of thinking supports the MAGA position on immigration and working class (read: white American) wages.
 
W

whyamihere

Banned
This is a wierdly good recruit.

https://m.dailykos.com/stories/2017...os-Elections-Live-Digest-7-17?t=1500312614211

UT-Sen: Utah is one of the most Republican states in the country, but Democrats just landed a surprisingly legit candidate against longtime GOP Sen. Orrin Hatch on Monday when Salt Lake County Councilwoman Jenny Wilson kicked off her campaign. Wilson is currently serving in her second six-year tenure on the county council, having won election to a countywide seat in 2012 and 2004. Salt Lake County covers about one-third of Utah’s population, meaning Wilson may already start out with some decent name recognition. She’s is also the daughter of former Salt Lake City Mayor Ted Wilson, who unsuccessfully ran for this seat against Hatch himself way back in 1982.

While Wilson gives Democrats a credible contender, merely calling this race a daunting challenge would be an understatement. Utah favored Trump just 45-27 over Clinton, but the 21 percent voting for conservative independent Evan McMullin largely consisted of anti-Trump Republicans who had no problem backing the GOP downballot last year. Hatch hasn’t had a close election battle since his initial victory over Democratic then-incumbent Frank Moss in 1976, and he’s likely a heavy favorite over any Democrat next year.

However, Wilson may be counting on this becoming an open seat, since the 83-year-old Hatch has been deliberately non-committal about whether he will even seek another term next year. Hatch most recently said he intends to run, but just as with his past statements, he has an annoying habit of leaving wiggle room for the possibility of a retirement. While scant polls are available on Trump’s approval rating in the Beehive State, it’s possible that he has still struggled to win over disaffected Mormon Republicans. Wilson’s entry into the race at least gives Democrats a chance here if the stars align for Team Blue in 2018.
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F

Futurevoid

Member
PBY said:
Is that even the case? This kind of thinking supports the MAGA position on immigration and working class (read: white American) wages.
Click to expand...
Is what the case? That Trump has no interest in paying Americans a living wage when he can bring in seasonal workers instead at a lower cost? That's the point I was making and you're damned right I think that's the case. I don't agree with it, but that's how I see it.

I love how Breitbart is blaming Paul Ryan and the GOP for "forcing" Kelly to do this as well. It's not Trump, its that shitty GOP and their pro-immigration stances that's killing MAGA according to them.
 
P

PBY

Banned
Futurevoid said:
Is what the case? That Trump has no interest in paying Americans a quality wage when he can bring in seasonal workers instead? That's the point I was making and you're damned right I think that's the case.

I love how Breitbart is blaming Paul Ryan and the GOP for "forcing" Kelly to do this as well. It's not Trump, its that shitty GOP and their pro-immigration stances that's killing MAGA according to them.
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Is it the case that bringing in seasonal workers depresses wages for Americans?
 
N

NYCmetsfan

Banned
Ignatz Mouse said:
Yeah, we should totally wait until they *successfully* hack voting systems or the power grid.
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That's not what the article says

Still, the belligerent rhetoric from the likes of Begala and Blumenthal is dangerous. To bluster about Russian actions being an “act of war” is to suggest that the U.S. may actually have to go to war with Russia, or risk appearing too weak to defend its own sovereignty. Yet aside from Begala’s comments about bombing the KGB, there’s little explanation from these Democrats about what a war with Russia, a nuclear power, would look like.

It’s worth contrasting the wild talk about bombing Russia with the policy of President Barack Obama: economic sanctions, the dismissal of diplomats, and potential retribution in the cyber realm. As The Washington Post reported in June, Obama in late December “approved a previously undisclosed covert measure that authorized planting cyber weapons in Russia’s infrastructure, the digital equivalent of bombs that could be detonated if the United States found itself in an escalating exchange with Moscow. The project, which Obama approved in a covert-action finding, was still in its planning stages when Obama left office. It would be up to President Trump to decide whether to use the capability.”

Cyber warfare is a murky realm, but it’s clear that Obama’s preference was for a modulated approach that would punish Russia’s norm violations by reacting in kind, but stay well short of a conventional military war. He took this approach because he correctly viewed Russia as a weak state trying to compensate with norm violations, but lacking in the resources to be a real threat to American power. In 2013, Obama dismissively referred to Putin as someone who can act “like a bored kid in the back of the classroom.” By this judgement, Russia, with its decrepit oil-based economy (roughly the same size as Italy’s economy) and general lack of soft power (because Putin’s own actions have made Russia unpopular in Europe and many other parts of the world), is more an irritant than a major problem. So Obama opted to contain Russia rather than fight it directly.

His approach, widely derided by GOP hawks, remains the right one. To abandon it, and make common cause with McCain and Graham, would be to accept their reckless threat inflation and the foolish belief that the U.S., still bogged down in the Middle East, can afford another major conflict. Trump’s coddling of Putin deserves to be criticized, and Russia ought to be punished for its election interference and prevented from doing it again. But this can be accomplished without borrowing language from Dick Cheney, of all people. Instead, Democrats should realize that their last president laid out a nuanced approach that looks more and more sensible every day.
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F

Futurevoid

Member
PBY said:
Is it the case that bringing in seasonal workers depresses wages for Americans?
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That's not the point that I was making. It's hypocritical to stand on "America First" and push back at H1-B visas while expanding visas that benefit and increase the profits of the very businesses he owns. That was my point.

Anything else you inferred is well..up to you. If you're asking me that question directly? No, I do not believe that immigration in most cases depresses American wages. I do believe that these types of visas can be abused to depress the wages of the very immigrants that are being brought in to do this work, however.
 
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