• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Star Citizen Alpha 2.0 | The 'Verse Awakens

Don't buy the bullshit RJ is selling. That thing is full of half-truths, its not even the full picture and it ignores even the recent add-ons from 3.1. To be honest it's really funny that it comes from where you'd expect this type of misinformation to come from.

What bit is a half-truth? All the statements there are directly from the project lead.

What adds ons from 3.1 are we missing? All the features from 3.0 like AI, Mining, Character Creation and so on got pushed back, but none have come forwards.

If anything, it's focused only on assets, content and not other aspects that they haven't done like careers, netcode, etc, whose omission gives it actually a more positive spin.
 

Burny

Member
I didn't expect to say that when I first heard about it, but euro truck simulator 2 in VR is a pretty relaxing experience.

I believe you, which is why I added it to my backlog of shame in the recent Steam sales.

But: It simulates driving a truck to some degree of accuracy. Not fondling each and every piece of cargo with your grimy, virtual hands, awkwardly stacking boxes in your trailer. Hardcore plane sims don't simulate hauling your bomber's loadout into the hangar and mounting each piece or ordnance onto the pylons or into the bomb bay manually. These types of software "cut the crap", so to speak, and let you drive the vehicle they simulate. It doesn't make you wait for a realistic fueling time before going onto the runway, when you take a mission. As opposed to having mid-air refueling, which is actually a skill based task to be executed by controlling the plane.

Star Citizen. You have spaceships for anything, from 45$ to 5000$. It stands to reason, that ingame progression will involve hundreds to thousands of executions of repetitive tasks to get from one to the other. And the hook is controlling your spaceship. Not playing a tedious game of tetris in your cargo hold, keeping you from taking off and controlling the ship. But a canonical "realistic" implementation of stacking boxes would be just that - a laborious implementation of tetris. It may be charming the first couple of dozen of times. But it may eventually become very, very annoying, if the thing isn't thought through thoroughly, to keep the desireable ingame task of fantasy spaceship control and the tedious means-to-an-end tasks in a balance.

Great to know, that CIG have never shown a complete ingame cargo run, so people could actually see the game design and balance at work, isn't it? It's been all shiny "Look at our highly fidelious assets" and "We have the coolest 50 second clip of an isolated tech demo of a pretend space citizen putting a crate there". Five years in.

We haven't even begun to see what the actual meta game is supposed to be like. Small wonder, if you haven't progressed past a tech demo. At least the man himself can succinctly explain what these mechanics are supposed to be like:

KrWR38.gif
 

elyetis

Member
I'm not sure they actually need to make it very fun for a long time per say, it feel like it should quickly become something your AI crew would do for you.
One can only hope that they will listen to people who actually like fun when they will get feedback on it. ( yup I'm thinking about how how Frontier tend to do the opposite )
 
Great job guys(!), this thread is my favourite soap opera.

One thing I see here over and over again is what i like to call the "Rockstar defence". Someone points out some delay/change/downgrade/whatever then it goes something like:
"You are ignorant about game development, things always change! I took Rockstar 5 years to make GTA V and they had 1000+ developers not including outsourcing."

How is this a good thing for SC?

Yes it took Rockstar 5 years, 1000+ developers an 265 million dollars to make GTA V. The difference is that it was their 5th try over 10-15 years to perfect the same concept. They have the experienced staff who has done this kind of thing before, they know the organisation, process, tools, engine and so on.

SC is developed by a new team who is trying to do something that has never been done before. 400 developers and 150 million does not sound like an awful lot if they are going to deliver the insane quality that has been promised on time.

What it takes for Rockstar to do what they do should not be the go to defence but your greatest concern.
 

Burny

Member
I'm not sure they actually need to make it very fun for a long time per say, it feel like it should quickly become something your AI crew would do for you.
One can only hope that they will listen to people who actually like fun when they will get feedback on it. ( yup I'm thinking about how how Frontier tend to do the opposite )

Frontier's game design is a trainwreck of its own. But at least they're already at the point of having such a thing, even though I'd seriously like to ask their designers what they were even thinking on quite the number of topics.


You seriously hope that "the AI" will do the manual loading for you, when you've grown tired of it after the first couple of times?

First: What is the "AI"? Is it an actual AI routine, controlling actual NPC characters, who manually load the ship? If so, who's to program this AI? The people who haven't gotten a non-hostile NPC with any form of non-scripted behaviour into the relased prototypes after five years? The people who haven't developed their prototype's networking into a state where it would even support the actual game in a MMO capacity after five years? The people who haven't managed to release the basic cargo mechanic as part of their prototype within five years? The people who, since 2014, haven't managed to send their prototype builds through a delta patcher instead of requiring you to download some 30GB for each and every update?

That's only the feasibilty concerns from a technical POV based on what they delivered so far within the current timeframe. Next are game design concerns: What does waiting for AI controlled NPCs even improve, when they take +/- just as long to load the cargo hold as you would manually? A twiddling-your-thumbs-and-watching-netflix game mechanic? I thought you disliked how Elite's game design goes about things?

What's even the reasoning for such an approach? Developing a technically demanding game mechanic for manual cargo loading, only to then have to develop a loading-AI as a subsequent requirement, because players will arguably not want to spend too much time on the manual cargo loading mechanic you already spend many person days to implement?


Or does "AI" just stand for a menu, that let's you select the type and amount of cargo, press a button and it'll automatically and instantly do the Tetris playing for you, putting each piece into a place in the cargo hold? Maybe with a diagram, where you can manually drag and drop your cargo around? Much more reasonable from a game mechanics PoV, less costly in terms of development. But then, "AI" is a poorly chosen and very fuzzy buzzword to describe something else.


Just throwing the term "AI" at a potential game design issue however, is a very naive approach. Developing a feature doesn't work that way. And very unfortunately, what comes out of CIG so far, is hardly a more tightly specified design doc than "Subsumption AI is gonna handle it. Here, watch a 30 second clip of one our our high res assets ponderously approaching another asset. Here's some rousing music to go with it." Terrific.


They'll put all of this into a released game before 2030? With their current track record of timely delivering a stable, well optimized software that sports the features they've promised, from the start, off handedly throughout dozens of hours of TftC and during their other talk shows and during all of their convention talks?

giphy.gif
 

elyetis

Member
You seriously hope that "the AI" will do the manual loading for you, when you've grown tired of it after the first couple of times?
I can only make the assumption that they will get their IA to work, yeah. I mean not only will it be usefull for multicrew ship; but it need to be done for SQ42 anyway.

Then it mostly a matter of :
- you have a small ship with no crew => almost no cargo so it doesn't matter much
- you made money, you have a bigger ship where moving by yourself all that cargo would get boring very quickly => that ship is most likely a multicrew ship so the IA can do that for you ( or with you if you want to make that faster )

What is true, it that even with that notion, to keep the game fun, they need to give you something worth doing during that time, which is also true for their idea that repearing/refueling your ship will take time.
 

Burny

Member
I can only make the assumption that they will get their IA to work, yeah.

One could also only have assumed that the game was going to sport a 100 star systems at launch.

Have they so far shown any footage whatsoever of a nonhostile NPC acting by AI routines btw.?
 

MJLord

Member
Star Citizen is all talk and no trousers. There's so much theory craft and ideas but very little of it has made it into an actual live build. If 3.0 comes out and half of the things discussed in the weekly vids is in then I'll happily eat crow. I think releasing things like Loremakers guide is just setting people up for dissapointment.
 

Raticus79

Seek victory, not fairness
Great job guys(!), this thread is my favourite soap opera.

One thing I see here over and over again is what i like to call the "Rockstar defence". Someone points out some delay/change/downgrade/whatever then it goes something like:
"You are ignorant about game development, things always change! I took Rockstar 5 years to make GTA V and they had 1000+ developers not including outsourcing."

How is this a good thing for SC?

Yes it took Rockstar 5 years, 1000+ developers an 265 million dollars to make GTA V. The difference is that it was their 5th try over 10-15 years to perfect the same concept. They have the experienced staff who has done this kind of thing before, they know the organisation, process, tools, engine and so on.

SC is developed by a new team who is trying to do something that has never been done before. 400 developers and 150 million does not sound like an awful lot if they are going to deliver the insane quality that has been promised on time.

What it takes for Rockstar to do what they do should not be the go to defence but your greatest concern.

Yeah, this one is a double-edged sword.
If the position is taken that we should be lenient with schedule expectations because "look how long/much it took Rockstar to make a sequel with an established studio", the flip side of that coin is that it's unrealistic to expect a new studio to outperform them with fewer developers, smaller budget, and a comparable scope that requires some big technical innovations along the way.

At least things like 64-bit and local physics grids are out of the way. Taking player counts to MMO scale while maintaining frame rate is the big one that lies ahead.
 

Astery

Member
First: What is the "AI"? Is it an actual AI routine, controlling actual NPC characters, who manually load the ship? If so, who's to program this AI? The people who haven't gotten a non-hostile NPC with any form of non-scripted behaviour into the relased prototypes after five years? The people who haven't developed their prototype's networking into a state where it would even support the actual game in a MMO capacity after five years? The people who haven't managed to release the basic cargo mechanic as part of their prototype within five years? The people who, since 2014, haven't managed to send their prototype builds through a delta patcher instead of requiring you to download some 30GB for each and every update?

That's only the feasibilty concerns from a technical POV based on what they delivered so far within the current timeframe. Next are game design concerns: What does waiting for AI controlled NPCs even improve, when they take +/- just as long to load the cargo hold as you would manually? A twiddling-your-thumbs-and-watching-netflix game mechanic? I thought you disliked how Elite's game design goes about things?

What's even the reasoning for such an approach? Developing a technically demanding game mechanic for manual cargo loading, only to then have to develop a loading-AI as a subsequent requirement, because players will arguably not want to spend too much time on the manual cargo loading mechanic you already spend many person days to implement?


Or does "AI" just stand for a menu, that let's you select the type and amount of cargo, press a button and it'll automatically and instantly do the Tetris playing for you, putting each piece into a place in the cargo hold? Maybe with a diagram, where you can manually drag and drop your cargo around? Much more reasonable from a game mechanics PoV, less costly in terms of development. But then, "AI" is a poorly chosen and very fuzzy buzzword to describe something else.


Just throwing the term "AI" at a potential game design issue however, is a very naive approach. Developing a feature doesn't work that way. And very unfortunately, what comes out of CIG so far, is hardly a more tightly specified design doc than "Subsumption AI is gonna handle it. Here, watch a 30 second clip of one our our high res assets ponderously approaching another asset. Here's some rousing music to go with it." Terrific.


They'll put all of this into a released game before 2030? With their current track record of timely delivering a stable, well optimized software that sports the features they've promised, from the start, off handedly throughout dozens of hours of TftC and during their other talk shows and during all of their convention talks?

I like this and I agree. I've pledged to the game for wanting to play with my friend and the idea of I can land my spaceship almost anywhere on planet surfaces from anywhere in space, then explore the planets on foot, may be hunting some local fauna (eg. sand worms)

But as I only plan to play with my friend (no time to socialize for guilds(orgs)) I often have concern on various unclear mechanics, especially those that involves hiring NPC escorts/ guards/ labor which are often greeted by statements AI will automatically and magically solve everything. There is however a very lacking of progress and focus on AI shown which isn't exactly reaffirming.

I'm expecting a proper release in beta form no earlier than 2021 which would contain the very bare bones of systems, and may take past 2030 to actually accomplish most development that were in the crowd funding goals. And this is my optimistic estimation.
 
Any news about the 3.0 PTU? We're reaching August, wasn't it planned for July? Or do they wait for the Gamescom?



We are in the window for Evocoti, PTU is aiming for August.

Production Schedule Report

---> Most important features are feature complete and some are going through bug fixes
---> There are still a few possible blockers but some features can be sidelined in favor of evocati release.
---> Reddit made Progress Watch shows information in colors and numbers the competed versus what is left
 
Yep it sucks, but that's what happens, when you let non-paid/contracted individuals test your game.

In the case of this game, it is not a bad thing though. It calms some people down and makes those who are scheduled for PTU have something to look forward to. It kinda sucks for those that are waiting for full alpha but at least those will have more features than evocati. I am hoping for the patching system to finally get completed.
 
In the case of this game, it is not a bad thing though. It calms some people down and makes those who are scheduled for PTU have something to look forward to. It kinda sucks for those that are waiting for full alpha but at least those will have more features than evocati. I am hoping for the patching system to finally get completed.

Yeah i'm hoping that after UK is done testing their version of the new patching system. Last week, that it moved on to the other studios. Fairly quick to test themselves.


The Tumbril is fucking sexy. But i don't think it's the vehicle, i saw on my LA Office visit funny enough.

Which is exciting.
 
Yeah i'm hoping that after UK is done testing their version of the new patching system. Last week, that it moved on to the other studios. Fairly quick to test themselves.


The Tumbril is fucking sexy. But i don't think it's the vehicle, i saw on my LA Office visit funny enough.

Which is exciting.

Seriously, the stuff they are working on and keeping under wraps is immense. I understand NDA's but dislike them now. lol.

One of the things that were shown but I am sure is complete by now is those drones. They are gonna be nuts.
 
Soooo I came in to ask if we're near 3.0 and found the last few pages. Wtf happened to this thread? I used to just pop in to see what new developments had happened but it looks more like a thread from a Derek Smart/Escapist bullshit claim these days.
 
Soooo I came in to ask if we're near 3.0 and found the last few pages. Wtf happened to this thread? I used to just pop in to see what new developments had happened but it looks more like a thread from a Derek Smart/Escapist bullshit claim these days.

You have no idea. We're just going to ignore those individuals at this point. Because i know the source of their "concern" and it's usually comes from, what you stated in bold. It's like a cockroach infestation at times. They just repeat and regurgitate the same stuff over and over again. Without any fact checking.
 
You have no idea. We're just going to ignore those individuals at this point. Because i know the source of their "concern" and it's usually comes from, what you stated in bold. It's like a cockroach infestation at times. They just repeat and regurgitate the same stuff over and over again. Without any fact checking.

Why are you saying "we"? Who do you represent?

I can see Burny starting a game-design centric discussion about the cargo/loading systems, but nobody is presenting any counter-arguments to why the system isn't a vague bollocks at this point.

It is so much easier to go in whenever someone makes a silly claim, respond to it and then pretend that all the negative comments in this thread are trolling/nonsense.
 

Akronis

Member
Why are you saying "we"? Who do you represent?

I can see Burny starting a game-design centric discussion about the cargo/loading systems, but nobody is presenting any counter-arguments to why the system isn't a vague bollocks at this point.

It is so much easier to go in whenever someone makes a silly claim, respond to it and then pretend that all the negative comments in this thread are trolling/nonsense.

It's because his posts in the past have indicated a particular agenda. If he wants to start a thread, he can, but he's shit up the thread before with arguments that amount to "Chris Roberts is mismanagement incarnate, here's a funny out of context gif to support my argument"

Just to clarify, I do think this project has some management issues. CR def has some problems with being a perfectionist.
 

Raticus79

Seek victory, not fairness
It blows my mind that the interest in the Cyclone is high enough to cause issues for their site. People really want to drive around in 3.0 I guess.
 
Why are you saying "we"? Who do you represent?

I can see Burny starting a game-design centric discussion about the cargo/loading systems, but nobody is presenting any counter-arguments to why the system isn't a vague bollocks at this point.

It is so much easier to go in whenever someone makes a silly claim, respond to it and then pretend that all the negative comments in this thread are trolling/nonsense.

Why are you trying to debate the word "we"?

After that, what the hell are you even talking about? Burny should just worry about ED. Because that's the game he loves and has the most knowledge about, yet that dude always seems to find himself in this thread. Ready to bash CIG and SC like clock-work. So whatever preconceived issues he may have with the cargo and loading system is moot (Since he hasn't used the darn thing). Since it will get tested when 3.0 is out and any problems that arise will and can be corrected, not before that date. So it's best not to encourage him to talk out of his bum.

Though the fact that you want to call the information provided past and present on the subject "Vague Bollocks" shows, how clueless you are. But i already know what stance you take on this project. So of course you'd claim that. You don't even know what design theory or design concepts are.

Also you can easily tell the difference between trolling/shit posting/those with an agenda and people with actual concerns or criticism. It's night and day. But right now all we've gotten is the SC vendetta brigade. Stinking up this thread.


Just to clarify, I do think this project has some management issues. CR def has some problems with being a perfectionist.

His perfectionist attitude is definitely a double edged sword. All projects have issues. Lets just be glad everything didn't crash and burn in 2014 to 2015, when all their issues came to a head. Before they bailed themselves out of a hole.
 

mnannola

Member
AI is going to take the biggest hit compared to everyones expectations. There is just no way they are going to be able to have complex AI routines in an MMO. What they have said their AI will be is way more advanced than even the best single player games.

Expecting AI to take over all the tedious tasks in the game is expecting far too much.
 

~Cross~

Member
Any news about the 3.0 PTU? We're reaching August, wasn't it planned for July? Or do they wait for the Gamescom?

They were initially planning june, then it got delayed to july, now they are planning august but the last schedule report showed a bunch of important things get delayed for up to two weeks and because they've been delayed so much they went ahead and increase the scope a tad bit by adding some ship reworks.

Its almost certainly going to be pushed past August.
 
AI is going to take the biggest hit compared to everyones expectations. There is just no way they are going to be able to have complex AI routines in an MMO. What they have said their AI will be is way more advanced than even the best single player games.

Expecting AI to take over all the tedious tasks in the game is expecting far too much.

Yeah AI will always be in flux. In some form or another. Since they aren't looking for basic functionality but more nuanced and advanced AI protocols.

Going to be a hard one to master, but hopefully once they get that locked down. It will be much easier to manage and improve.
 
It's because his posts in the past have indicated a particular agenda. If he wants to start a thread, he can, but he's shit up the thread before with arguments that amount to "Chris Roberts is mismanagement incarnate, here's a funny out of context gif to support my argument"

Just to clarify, I do think this project has some management issues. CR def has some problems with being a perfectionist.

I think there should be a clear design description of this mechanic as soon as possible to prevent wasting resources on something that might be clearly a monotonous repetitive task.

They are going this endless maze of stacking potentially wasteful mechanics without a clear description of the gameplay loop of the trucker/looter. I think they should define the intended gameplay loop for different professions and craft the experience accordingly.

There could be a fun moment snatching some rare cargo on the ground and trying to escape with it, but that video is depressing for someone who wants action and adventures. If you start with the physical limitations of the human suit, then you will not be able to even carry all the required gameplay items like repair kits, weapons, healing etc.

Making the loot as big as physically required just doesn't make any sense game design wise. Imagine finding the jackpot container somewhere but being unable to carry it because you took the small explorer instead of the cargo ship, or worse, you don't even have any means to transport it.

Why are you trying to debate the word "we"?

I would like to know if I am talking to someone else besides one user. Do you speak for SC Fans? Backers? CIG?
 
You have no idea. We're just going to ignore those individuals at this point. Because i know the source of their "concern" and it's usually comes from, what you stated in bold. It's like a cockroach infestation at times. They just repeat and regurgitate the same stuff over and over again. Without any fact checking.

Nope, it's all sourced from the head of the project, you're just ignoring this because it makes it harder to argue against.

God knows how the backers are so hostile to criticism and then such pushovers for CIG. "Hey, they did just cut down the scope of the game to the level of an Early Access Eastern European survival game, but woo, new $40 macrotransaction for our massively cut down tech demo!"

Take that anger and channel it at the company wasting your money.
 
and now we have our first anti air vehicle ^^


edit:
Tumbril-Buggy-Piece-06-Lagoon-V011.jpg

Going to be interesting to see how these ground to air missiles will do their thing. Once launched in regards to their range, impact radius, lock-on threshold...etc

Will it only be able to preform the sequence stationary or can it be done while moving about?
 

Zabojnik

Member
AI is going to take the biggest hit compared to everyones expectations. There is just no way they are going to be able to have complex AI routines in an MMO. What they have said their AI will be is way more advanced than even the best single player games.

Expecting AI to take over all the tedious tasks in the game is expecting far too much.

Nobody cares about Star Citizen m8, it's all about Squadron 42.
 
It blows my mind that the interest in the Cyclone is high enough to cause issues for their site. People really want to drive around in 3.0 I guess.

I can't imagine a vehicle like that in game is going to cost much to get and maintain. So I'm just trying to ignore it. But, it would be fun to play around with. I really should avoid buying more stuff though. Especially with our ORG having such a vast array of vehicles now. I'm sure I can just jump in with someone during 3.0 and play around with one.
 

Raticus79

Seek victory, not fairness
AI is going to take the biggest hit compared to everyones expectations. There is just no way they are going to be able to have complex AI routines in an MMO. What they have said their AI will be is way more advanced than even the best single player games.

Expecting AI to take over all the tedious tasks in the game is expecting far too much.

Having the AI handle stuff like moving cargo around won't be too bad, I think, but one of the most challenging areas will be zero-G gunfights, especially considering there can be free-floating obstructions.
 

Dmax3901

Member
and now we have our first anti air vehicle ^^


edit:
Tumbril-Buggy-Piece-06-Lagoon-V011.jpg

Something I've just now realised cause of this screen: procedurally generated planets are kinda boring in games like No Man's Sky cause they're barren and simple to look at.

If all the planets SC look like the above screen I don't think I'd ever get bored driving around. Graphics sometimes do trump gameplay.

EDIT: Realising that appears to be a composite of art and assets not an actual screenshot, never mind. I blame my shitty work monitor.
 

Zabojnik

Member
SQ42 is going to be worth it for cutscenes alone. I'm expecting some truly next-gen shit. Maybe not on the level of Beyond Good and Evil 2 running on PS4 Pro, but close enough.
 
AI is going to take the biggest hit compared to everyones expectations. There is just no way they are going to be able to have complex AI routines in an MMO. What they have said their AI will be is way more advanced than even the best single player games.

Expecting AI to take over all the tedious tasks in the game is expecting far too much.

Tony Z sure has a lot to prove as he's the one out of all of the development heads who's yet to show anything he's talked about since he started on the project. I'm expecting decent things from AI on Sq42 but nothing mind blowing for the PU
 
Top Bottom