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Cavaliers have traded Kyrie Irving for Isaiah Thomas, Jae Crowder, Ante Žiži, & pick

Celtics make trade

Cavs demand more

Celtics cave and give more

Celtics win the trade

Only in Boston.

Err no

The cavs needed this deal far more then the celtics and the celtics basically called the cavs bluff and gave them some table scraps to make them go away. IT was already a downgrade from Kyrie, and if he has much worse health issues then the cavs thought then the deal became a lot worse for cleveland and that second round pick doesn't really compensate.
 

cdyhybrid

Member
Err no

The cavs needed this deal far more then the celtics and the celtics basically called the cavs bluff and gave them some table scraps to make them go away. IT was already a downgrade from Kyrie, and if he has much worse health issues then the cavs thought then the deal became a lot worse for cleveland and that second round pick doesn't really compensate.

Celtics lost the original deal and then gave up even more. Them's the facts, sorry.

That Nets pick is more valuable than either IT or Kyrie.

The Cavs literally held out for a week and potentially ruined the reputation of their new player over a 2nd rounder.

A 2nd rounder.

Celtics legend Isaiah Thomas was a second round pick, you know.
 
whose reputation is ruined?

Yeah making IT's injury seem way worse than it actually probably is, is not an issue for his future contract negotiations around the league whatsoever.

Celtics lost the original deal and then gave up even more. Them's the facts, sorry.

That Nets pick is more valuable than either IT or Kyrie.



Celtics legend Isaiah Thomas was a second round pick, you know.

EDIT: blah, I get it now, lol
 

cdyhybrid

Member
Yeah making IT's injury seem way worse than it actually probably is, is not an issue for his future contract negotiations around the league whatsoever.



I don't eee how Thomas' draft position 6 years ago when everyone evaluated him incorrectly has any relevance to what I just posted.
Because he's acting like a second round pick is worthless.
 
Take 2, action



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Yeah making IT's injury seem way worse than it actually probably is, is not an issue for his future contract negotiations around the league whatsoever.

How does that ruin IT's reputation? His future contract negotiations are going to depend on what he does on the court next season, and the medical evaluation potential signing teams give him next offseason, not some dick measuring contest between Danny Ainge and Koby Altman 12 months prior.
 

Cipherr

Member
The Cavs literally held out for a week and potentially ruined the reputation of their new player over a 2nd rounder.

A 2nd rounder.

tf is this? This logic.. I can't follow it. Who the hell do you think feels IT's reputation is ruined too? These people only exist in your head. The moment the man gets on the hardwood and plays, no one will give a fuck about the stuff the Cavs said to sweeten their trade during the previous summer dude.

The trade was already good for them. They barked and got a little more. Trying to spin that into a bad thing is just... insane.

And lol @ the "Cavs GM comes out looking bad" narrative considering these are the guys that threw a full on bitch fit after Lebron left and penned a shitty letter in comic fucking sans claiming they would get a ring before he did.

Yeah, these guys definitely have to worry about optics after having finessed a nice trade out of Boston.
 
How does that ruin IT's reputation? His future contract negotiations are going to depend on what he does on the court next season, and the medical evaluation potential signing teams give him next offseason, not some dick measuring contest between Danny Ainge and Koby Altman 12 months prior.

Teams will be able to use this against IT in contract negotiations next year even if his medicals are decent enough. It was already going to be an uphill battle for the guy because of the hip injury is really going to be something he has to manage for the rest of his career, and this sure as hell didn't help his negotiating power even if it is a year away.

tf is this? This logic.. I can't follow it. Who the hell do you think feels IT's reputation is ruined too? These people only exist in your head. The moment the man gets on the hardwood and plays, no one will give a fuck about the stuff the Cavs said to sweeten their trade during the previous summer dude.

The trade was already good for them. They barked and got a little more. Trying to spin that into a bad thing is just... insane.

And lol @ the "Cavs GM comes out looking bad" narrative considering these are the guys that threw a full on bitch fit after Lebron left and penned a shitty letter in comic fucking sans claiming they would get a ring before he did.

Yeah, these guys definitely have to worry about optics after having finessed a nice trade out of Boston.

Okay, apparently you guys live in a dream world where teams don't use injuries as a negotiating tactic. Doesn't matter if IT comes out and plays 70 games next season, this hip injury will follow up for the rest of his career even if it is manageable. Cleveland just made it seem even worse.
 
Teams will be able to use this against IT in contract negotiations next year even if his medicals are decent enough. It was already going to be an uphill battle for the guy because of the hip injury is really going to be something he has to manage for the rest of his career, and this sure as hell didn't help his negotiating power even if it is a year away.

NO they won't. If he plays well, and his medicals check out, that's all that matters. Teams aren't going to hold some year old trade negotiations against him, at least not any teams with sane and competent front offices. You are being incredibly silly and hyperbolic.
 

jtb

Banned
I don't know how you can look at the bargain bin returns PG, Cousins, and Butler got and think that Ainge didn't badly misread the market this summer.

Cavs had about as little leverage as you could possible have (and basically no GM) and still completely swindled the Celtics
 

orochi91

Member
I don't know how you can look at the bargain bin returns PG, Cousins, and Butler got and think that Ainge didn't badly misread the market this summer.

Cavs had about as little leverage as you could possible have (and basically no GM) and still completely swindled the Celtics

+1

Agreed.
 
NO they won't. If he plays well, and his medicals check out, that's all that matters. Teams aren't going to hold some year old trade negotiations against him, at least not any teams with sane and competent front offices. You are being incredibly silly and hyperbolic.

I don't think you are following me when I say this injury will follow him for the rest of his career. The type of injury he has isn't one that just goes away. It will always be there. Teams can and will use anything to try to get an edge in negotiations. It's naive to think otherwise, but sure.

The guy is already going to have difficulty enough getting paid what he is probably worth because of the injury, and this sure didn't help.
 
Okay, apparently you guys live in a dream world where teams don't use injuries as a negotiating tactic. Doesn't matter if IT comes out and plays 70 games next season, this hip injury will follow up for the rest of his career even if it is manageable. Cleveland just made it seem even worse.

Apparently you live in a dream world where teams use non-existent injuries as negotiating tactics. If IT comes out and plays like he did last year, and looks healthy, and his medical physicals check out, he's going to have more than his share of suitors. Any of them that try and use this crap against him then are only fucking themselves over in this hypothetical scenario. You sound silly.

I don't think you are following me when I say this injury will follow up for the rest of his career. The type of injury he has isn't one that just goes away. It will always be there. Teams can and will use anything to try to get an edge in negotiations. It's naive to think otherwise, but sure.

If his hip is fucked then teams are right to use it against him, and his medicals would have given it away. Everybody already knew about his hip issues before this trade happened. If as you said the injury doesn't just "go away" then his medical records will reveal that. If you think teams are going to use year old gossip as opposed to actual current medical records, again, you are being silly.
 
Apparently you live in a dream world where teams use non-existent injuries as negotiating tactics. If IT comes out and plays like he did last year, and looks healthy, and his medical physicals check out, he's going to have more than his share of suitors. Any of them that try and use this crap against him then are only fucking themselves over in this hypothetical scenario. You sound silly.

And you aren't understanding that this injury is never going away.

What do you think I am saying when I say this hip injury will follow him the rest of his career? I'm not talking about this negotiation. The hip injury was always going to make his contract negotiations difficult even if he played 82 games this season. I just don't think it's cool that Cleveland made it seem like it was more significant than it already is.
 
And you aren't understanding that this injury is never going away.

If this injury is never going away then what the fuck does it matter what the Cavs did or didn't say during a trade negotiation? His medical records next summer will be what teams use to inform themselves. If they hold it against him, it will be because of ACTUAL MEDICAL EVIDENCE.
 

JCizzle

Member
I don't know how you can look at the bargain bin returns PG, Cousins, and Butler got and think that Ainge didn't badly misread the market this summer.

Cavs had about as little leverage as you could possible have (and basically no GM) and still completely swindled the Celtics
The only way this works out for the Celtics is if the Nets are better than expected. If the pick is like 7-9 instead of 1-3, then it gets closer to the value of those other guys. There are gonna be a ton of teams tanking hard this year and it will be easier for the bottom teams out west to lose than the east.

If this injury is never going away then what the fuck does it matter what the Cavs did or didn't say during a trade negotiation? His medical records next summer will be what teams use to inform themselves. If they hold it against him, it will be because of ACTUAL MEDICAL EVIDENCE.
Teams and players absolutely took notice. Nobody likes to be publicly humiliated. This whole thing was entirely out of the norm and people don't like that shit. I can bet the NBA didn't like it either. All for a second rounder that they could have just bought from the shitty bulls instead of going through these hoops.
 
If this injury is never going away then what the fuck does it matter what the Cavs did or didn't say during a trade negotiation? His medical records next summer will be what teams use to inform themselves. If they hold it against him, it will be because of ACTUAL MEDICAL EVIDENCE.

I simply do not think it is ethically correct to drag a player's injury around the way the Cavs did. Them only receiving a 2nd round pick really shows that they never really had a leg to stand on and it made it seem way worse than it had to be.

Maybe saying it will damage his reputation is harsh, but what the Cavs did is incredibly sketchy.

The only way this works out for the Celtics is if the Nets are better than expected. If the pick is like 7-9 instead of 1-3, then it gets closer to the value of those other guys. There are gonna be a ton of teams tanking hard this year and it will be easier for the bottom teams out west to lose than the east.


Teams and players absolutely took notice. Nobody likes to be publicly humiliated. This whole thing was entirely out of the norm and people don't like that shit. I can bet the NBA didn't like it either. All for a second rounder that they could have just bought from the shitty bulls instead of going through these hoops.

Oh, someone who gets it. Thank you.

Just really messed up of the Cavs.

They knew what they were getting with the IT injury since Boston disclosed all medical records, and they tried using it to their advantage by publically making it seem worse than it was to force the Celtics' hand...and they ended up with a second rounder, which means they were BSing at the expense of their new player.
 
I simply do not think it is ethically correct to drag a player's injury around the way the Cavs did. Them only receiving a 2nd round pick really shows that they never really had a leg to stand on and it made it seem way worse than it had to be.

Maybe saying it will damage his reputation is harsh, but what the Cavs did is incredibly sketchy.

I mean, is this any worse than Ainge basically saying that they traded IT because of his injury? Isn't that just as bad if you want to talk about "reputation"? It's a business. The players all know it. That Ainge and Gilbert view these guys as commodities and little else isn't exactly blowing anybody's minds.
 
Teams and players absolutely took notice. Nobody likes to be publicly humiliated. This whole thing was entirely out of the norm and people don't like that shit. I can bet the NBA didn't like it either. All for a second rounder that they could have just bought from the shitty bulls instead of going through these hoops.

So teams and players don't take notice that Ainge shops a guy who just had an MVP calibur season for him because of an injury? That Ainge cites said injury publicly when explaining why he made the trade? You guys are totally blowing the impact of all of this out of proportion. Teams and agents and players will still deal with the Cavs if it makes business sense, like they always did. There is very little consequence to all of this.
 

JCizzle

Member
So teams and players don't take notice that Ainge shops a guy who just had an MVP calibur season for him because of an injury? That Ainge cites said injury publicly when explaining why he made the trade? You guys are totally blowing the impact of all of this out of proportion. Teams and agents and players will still deal with the Cavs if it makes business sense, like they always did. There is very little consequence to all of this.

I think the reputation hit will be with other GMs primarily, especially since reports indicate that Boston was transparent with the medical information up front. If the injury really mattered to the Cavs, a second rounder wouldn't have mattered.
 
I think the reputation hit will be with other GMs primarily.

I'm sure not all GMs like each other, or even respect each other, but at the end of the day they are business men, and they will deal with each other if it makes business sense. Nobody is going to be like "This trade makes sense for us, but I refuse to deal with Cleveland because of what they did to Danny!"
 

Dynomutt

Member
I could care less if the Cavs win the chip next year. I just hope Bron brings the wrath of Poseidon and drowns any hope or semblance of hope that Kyrie/Celtics have to win the ECF. I'm talking face mask what you say about my momma type motivation. When they play no love no amicable hand shakes Bron better make them run that shit up. Then when he leaves I hope John Wall and Beal elevate their game to make his time miserable to the point that he questions his tenure with the Celtics. That is all.
 
I mean, is this any worse than Ainge basically saying that they traded IT because of his injury? Isn't that just as bad if you want to talk about "reputation"? It's a business. The players all know it. That Ainge and Gilbert view these guys as commodities and little else isn't exactly blowing anybody's minds.

So the Cavs agreed to the trade originally after Boston disclosed all of the medical records knowing full well that IT's hip wasn't in good shape. Meaning they knew what they were getting into, and then after their own physical apparently things seemed 'worse' and you started hearing rumors of IT never playing at a high level again to IT missing a season. It was all a ploy to force the Celtics' hand into higher end assets. The Cavs ending up with a second rounder after pushing this for a week, to me, just proves the Cavs didn't really see much different in their physical than what the Celtics originally let them know about. They attempted to use IT's physical, which they probably always knew was going to fail based on the records the Celtics gave them, to their advantage post trade agreement.

It just comes across as sketchy and poor treatment to me.

At first I gave the Cavs the benefit of the doubt and thought maybe IT's injury really was that bad. Ending up with only a second rounder makes me reverse any benefit of the doubt I gave them.

So I admit I may have exaggerated how it impacts IT's future, but I don't think it is a great way to treat your new player. That's all.
 

JCizzle

Member
I'm sure not all GMs like each other, or even respect each other, but at the end of the day they are business men, and they will deal with each other if it makes business sense. Nobody is going to be like "This trade makes sense for us, but I refuse to deal with Cleveland because of what they did to Danny!"
Sure, but two equal trades are on the table I'd take the one with a GM that I knew wouldn't try to renege in a couple of days
 
So the Cavs agreed to the trade originally after Boston disclosed all of the medical records knowing full well that IT's hip wasn't in good shape. Meaning they knew what they were getting into, and then after their own physical apparently things seemed 'worse' and you started hearing rumors of IT never playing at a high level again to IT missing a season. It was all a ploy to force the Celtics' hand into higher end assets. The Cavs ending up with a second rounder after pushing this for a week, to me, just proves the Cavs didn't really see much different in their physical than what the Celtics originally let them know about. They attempted to use IT's physical which they always knew was going to fail to their advantage post trade agreement.

It just comes across as sketchy and poor treatment to me.

At first I gave the Cavs the benefit of the doubt and thought maybe IT's injury really was that bad. Ending up with only a second rounder makes me reverse any benefit of the doubt I gave them.

They didn't. The story seems to be that the trade was agreed upon based on Boston's doctor's evaluation of IT's injury. When IT came to Cleveland, the Cavs doctor had a different opinion, thinking IT might need surgery. As happens sometimes. You ever heard of people getting 2nd medical opinions? Because sometimes medical injuries and issues are not black and white. The whole thing is a lot less nefarious than people try to make it seem.
 
MVP Jaylen and reincarnated Pierce Taytum didn't get traded
Ainge did it

Got a feeling Isiah will get surgery now, will probably be back during Christmas week
 
They didn't. The story seems to be that the trade was agreed upon based on Boston's doctor's evaluation of IT's injury. When IT came to Cleveland, the Cavs doctor had a different opinion, thinking IT might need surgery. As happens sometimes. You ever heard of people getting 2nd medical opinions? Because sometimes medical injuries and issues are not black and white. The whole thing is a lot less nefarious than people try to make it seem.

This is how I viewed it yesterday actually also, but if the difference in opinion was that significant (surgery vs rehab), I feel they would have ended up with at least a first rounder or at least would have voided the deal. Makes me believe their opinions really weren't that different the whole time.
 

MBS

Banned
NO they won't. If he plays well, and his medicals check out, that's all that matters. Teams aren't going to hold some year old trade negotiations against him, at least not any teams with sane and competent front offices. You are being incredibly silly and hyperbolic.

I'd have to agree with this. In 9 months time from now, none of this talk will be relevant in terms of IT's value on the market. It only depends on what type of season he's having this year. And in terms of the true winner of this trade, it doesn't matter anyway, at least for now. Both teams are happy with what they both wanted and agreed to swap, so it's a win-win for everybody in the short team. Impact-wise, we 'll have to wait until next offseason to say who's the definite winner on this.
 
I'm sure not all GMs like each other, or even respect each other, but at the end of the day they are business men, and they will deal with each other if it makes business sense. Nobody is going to be like "This trade makes sense for us, but I refuse to deal with Cleveland because of what they did to Danny!"
If you believe Indy's GM didn't want to deal George to the East I wouldn't put it past GMs to put Koby on their shit list.

Not that it will matter in a year.
 

spyder_ur

Member
As their whole organization has this offseason from the ownership on down to the players, the Cavs come out looking like amateurs here with this business after the initial agreement. Either they tried to play hardball with the Cs and failed, or they really think IT is damaged goods and expect to be stuck with far less production from the crucial PG slot this coming season in what may be the last season you have LeBron freaking James. Both are bad looks for a front office already under scrutiny.

I'd have to agree with this. In 9 months time from now, none of this talk will be relevant in terms of IT's value on the market. It only depends on what type of season he's having this year. And in terms of the true winner of this trade, it doesn't matter anyway, at least for now. Both teams are happy with what they both wanted and agreed to swap, so it's a win-win for everybody in the short team. Impact-wise, we 'll have to wait until next offseason to say who's the definite winner on this.

This is going to be a fascinating trade to analyze in the future, and much of that analysis depends on factors that are out of the control of the teams involved. How does IT recover? Is the Nets pick top 3, or is it mid-late lotto range? Does Kyrie blossom into a top 10 player now that he has a decent coach and more freedom? And of course the big one - what does LeBron do?
 
This is going to be a fascinating trade to analyze in the future, and much of that analysis depends on factors that are out of the control of the teams involved. How does IT recover? Is the Nets pick top 3, or is it mid-late lotto range? Does Kyrie blossom into a top 10 player now that he has a decent coach and more freedom? And of course the big one - what does LeBron do?

What will be interesting is if Gilbert really is operating on the assumption Lebron is gone, does this team have a fire sale at the deadline?
 
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