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Sonic Forces - Casino Forest gameplay

You know you really got that Sonic design down when you have to put multiple speedboosters on downhill slopes to make Sonic go fast.

zxIU3if.gif

(text added by me)

Sonic goes down a hill and hits a speedbooster. He hits a steeper downward slope and SLOWS DOWN. Then he falls off a ledge and hits TWO MORE speedboosters on a downward slope and gets hardly any height off the ramp it leads to. Generations didn't do this kind of shit. How is this game worse than Generations?

Holy shit, I didn't even notice this. Yet again showing lack of though in classic level design, let alone gameplay mechanics and physics. Hell, even Generations wasn't that bad... It seems like his weight is way too heavy, or their physics engine is truly screwed.

A true return to momentum gameplay, amirite?
praise be to whatever being greenlit Mania giving us everything and more
 

Sami+

Member
But Hashimoto left after Unleashed yet they keep using the engine for next games (making it run better also). They also let an external developer port it to PC, and Generations PC runs in almost toasters at 60 fps.

I mean, they may have problems updating the engine to 2.0 but I don't understand how considering this 2.0 version looks like 1.0 in a PC.



Bad animations may be a lot of things, and I dunno if the H.Engine handles physics, I thinks it's mainly a graphics engine?
If it's 60 ps it's not framepacing, but maybe the framerate is not stable, but that's probably a beta thing.

Hmm, yeah you're probably right. I didn't consider the PC version of Generations being as well optimized as it was. Honestly, shit, I don't know wtf happened then. Worth remembering though that the Hedgehog Engine and whatever proprietary in-house core game engine that use are technically two different things. I want to say Colors and Lost World were made in the latter and it's likely the physics suck because they never bothered coding that in. Classic Sonic's gameplay is just a tweaked modern Sonic when you get down to it, in the same way that the furry dollmaker is.
 
the gameplay itself doesn't look so bad, definitely reminiscent of OG Sonic. Why not do 2D graphics though? It doesn't have to be a send up a la Mania, but the 3D graphics with the 2D gameplay seems very... Outdated. And bland.

3D graphics allows them to reuse assets for Modern/Avatar/Tag Team versions of the stage.

edit - I don't mean that in a dismissive way. Creating 2D tiles and sprites for each classic Sonic stage would likely be a huge waste of resources when the other gameplay styles are considered.
 

Ferr986

Member
Hmm, yeah you're probably right. I didn't consider the PC version of Generations being as well optimized as it was. Honestly, shit, I don't know wtf happened then. Worth remembering though that the Hedgehog Engine and whatever proprietary in-house core game engine that use are technically two different things. I want to say Colors and Lost World were made in the latter and it's likely the physics suck because they never bothered coding that in. Classic Sonic's gameplay is just a tweaked modern Sonic when you get down to it, in the same way that the furry dollmaker is.

Honestly, I assumed Lost World used the H.Engine but I dunno, tbh I never finished the game, got tired of it in the last stage lol Sonic Retro wikia does says it uses it though.

Also, I agree on the latter, Classic and Modern use the same physic engine, just with the obvious tweaks, I doubt they could recreate 1:1 classic physics (I still think they could do a better job, but what do I know...).
 
You know you really got that Sonic design down when you have to put multiple speedboosters on downhill slopes to make Sonic go fast.

zxIU3if.gif

(text added by me)

Sonic goes down a hill and hits a speedbooster. He hits a steeper downward slope and SLOWS DOWN. Then he falls off a ledge and hits TWO MORE speedboosters on a downward slope and gets hardly any height off the ramp it leads to. Generations didn't do this kind of shit. How is this game worse than Generations?

Visually the level needs more lighting but is an okay concept.

Music: as awful as this game's Green Hill. Seems like they're going to overuse that synthetic drum in every Classic Sonic track because they think that's what the Genesis games sounded like just like with Sonic 4.

The boost pads are pretty telling. That's not nitpicking, that's not figuring out your game design properly.

And there will be constant shit like that throughout the game.
 
This looks alright actually, seems like more of Generations. It's just that this time it doesn't seem as impressive and fun after Mania nailing 2D Sonic. What they should have done is focus 100% on 3D Sonic and try and nail that as well. Or from a business prespective, release this first and then Mania... Big mistake there.

They should have just scrapped 2D Sonic in this the moment they planned on Mania happening.
 

Data West

coaches in the WNBA
Looks more like Sonic Boom graphically than Colors or Generation

real ugly and weirdly spaced out. like not cohesive looking.
 

oon

Banned

When they're designing these levels, do they think "yes, the classic fans will love this" or what - are they well-intentioned but fail to understand what makes for good Sonic level design, or do they just not care? How can something be so obviously poor to everyone else while Sonic Team remains completely oblivious?

I know Sonic Mania was held to a certain standard of quality by Sonic Team - that it wasn't just fans working on the project in a vacuum, but a legitimate official project with oversight. Why don't they hold their own in-house game to the same standard?
 
It's better than arguably any of past levels shown off so far. The good things I can say is that the bumpers don't look like they're (entirely) scripted, the concept of the level theme (a forest/casino mix) isn't actually bad, and the platforming in play isn't as blocky or precision based as in previous shown levels, and the visuals are nice, if a bit inconsistent due to the garish neon lights of the bumpers. Unfortunately, there are still a ton of problems going on otherwise.

For one, most if not all of the level gimmicks are recycled from one past zone. Bumpers, slot machine, launching spring, pinball levers...all lifted from Casino Night, and they're that's only a few individual gimmicks being used. There's not really anything new on display here

There could had been some new gimmicks related to the forest part of the level theme, but the forest element seems to be restricted entirely as a visual / background event. Missed opportunity. We could have had stuff like spider-webs used like sticky traps or temporary springs, or logs used as chutes / tunnels, or giant leaves as parachutes.

There's hardly any level hazards or enemies either. It's just a few spiked balls floating around the player in the footage has come across. There's only one badnik (another stock Egg Pawn from the past levels) and it's almost off-screen. The above elements all contribute to making the level just feel really barren and empty in design.

The level object placement and level design structure is pretty poor too. We're still getting idiotic dash panel abuse, like the two dash panels placed directly adjacent to each other, and dash panels placed at the bottom of half-pipes. Ring placement is also haphazard too, namely the huge swaths of rings grouped in a bunch near the end. Slopes aren't natural in their connection, there are clear "breaks" of when shallow slopes end and when steeper slopes begin, and the level overall seems to be divided in boxed sections or rooms. Nothing really looks coherent.

Gameplay side of things still disappoints too. Physics look absolutely wonky (especially that one bit in the IGN footage where the bumper pushes Sonic and he slowly inches backwards) and ramps look scripted, there's one scripted ramp that sends Sonic into the air that's directly ripped from a similar ramp from the Green Hill level. There's also one section where Sonic is rolling in the IGN footage and he drops straight down the wall like a brick when rolling off of it (Sonic 4 a la mode), rather than being carried off of it with his momentum naturally (which oddly only works when Sonic is running).

And that music is pretty bad. More Sonic 4 synths and compositions.

The level overall seems like one of the better-designed levels you'd get from a Dimps Sonic game, which still doesn't make it necessarily good.

I'm more curious about this game's production than the game itself at this point. Surely, there must've been internal problems?

Despite Iizuka saying otherwise, I refuse to believe this has been a game in (active) development for four years.

The Forces team didn't make Generations? Forces (Project Sonic 2017) was announced as being from the team behind Generations.

Not exactly. Forces may have the same artists, musicians, and programmers; but neither the director or designer from Generations have been brought back. The person directing the game is the same person behind Lost World, Colors and both Storybook games (Secret Rings/Black Knight), and he's had a consistent group of designers with the games he's directed/designed.
 

Ducktail

Member
This looks fucking horrible, and I'm not the kind of guy who keeps bashing Sonic unjustly, I'm a big fan of the franchise after all.
 

zMiiChy-

Banned
I mean, that's fine. The Rush games were good.

But saying Mania looked bad is just kind of... wrong.
I mean, you're right - Sonic Mania is visually appealing.
Sonic CD looked nice as well.

Unfortunately it was dreadfully boring for me, just as I remembered the classic games.
I only tried it because a friend really wanted me to.

Forces looks to be devoid of fun, is really ugly,(Generations does indeed look much better) and is full-priced.
I won't even give it a chance.
 
Honest to god, I don't see what's so bad about these? I thought the classics had hidden springs too?

The first one's model is awkwardly clipped into the floor, the second is placed oddly. While yes, the classics have hidden Springs, they usually are sunken into the floor so that ONLY the yellow/red pad is visible when triggered, not the whole sprite; additionally, springs hidden at the end of tunnels are traditionally embedded in the wall just OUTSIDE the tunnel, not haphazardly stuffed into said tunnel.

Also, Sonic should have enough momentum that a Spring shouldn't be needed. But, here we are.
 
I really don't care for 2D classic sonic in this. I play 3D sonic for 3D sonic gameplay. The unleashed/generations gameplay is awesome and I hope they don't find a way to mess it up.
 

Mesoian

Member
If you told me this was a sonic 4 level, I'd believe it.

This is...extremely underwhelming.

I mean, you're right - Sonic Mania is visually appealing.
Sonic CD looked nice as well.

Unfortunately it was dreadfully boring for me, just as I remembered the classic games.
I only tried it because a friend really wanted me to.

Forces looks to be devoid of fun, is really ugly,(Generations does indeed look much better) and is full-priced.
I won't even give it a chance.

...Sonic might not be for you. And I don't mean that in a mean way, I sounds like you just don't like these kinds of games.
 

Ash735

Member
How is the music THAT bad? Why do Sonic Team continue to NOT get classic Sonic Music??? Each time they attempt "classic" sounding Sonic Music it's always badly done chip tune style, and yet this is the same year we have Sonic Mania where ONE GUY managed to do original songs and rework older tracks in a more modern twist. This stuff doesn't even sound 16bit, it's 8bit!
 

Yukinari

Member
How is the music THAT bad? Why do Sonic Team continue to NOT get classic Sonic Music??? Each time they attempt "classic" sounding Sonic Music it's always badly done chip tune style, and yet this is the same year we have Sonic Mania where ONE GUY managed to do original songs and rework older tracks in a more modern twist. This stuff doesn't even sound 16bit, it's 8bit!

Fake genesis music didnt work in Sonic 4 but they keep trying.
 

ZeoVGM

Banned
Perfect demonstration of how bad the 2D Sonic gameplay is in Forces. Its been this way since we first saw Green Hill Zone footage.



Egg Emperor or whatever its called. That stage is awful. Background and foreground elements hurt visibility, the stage's dark color palette is ugly and makes the stage look like a poor man's Carnival Night, the layout is narrow with no alternate paths, the recycled Carnival Night and Sonic 3 Bonus Stage elements are incredibly boring and lazy, and the final boss is super weak.

Taxman and team failed spectacularly with that zone. Metallic Madness should've been the end of the game.

Wow, I could not disagree more.

Fantastic zone.
 
Honest to god, I don't see what's so bad about these? I thought the classics had hidden springs too?

Hidden springs in the classic games were placed within / inside the platform, so you didn't see them (or could barely see the tops of them). In the footage, the springs are just made invisible objects that spontaneously appear out of thin air when the player comes into contact with them.

Moreover, these invisible springs are being placed at the end of ramps. Rather than the game utilizing the character's momentum/physics and level design to make the player fly off the ramps, the designers are instead resorting to using springs to do that for them--and making them hidden until the player touches them is to try and hide the fact that they're even there.

It's visually and functionally sloppy design, and an overall poor use of smoke-and-mirrors to hide how obviously directed/automated those level setpieces are.
 
I know the Classic stages in Generations weren't perfect replications of how the Genesis games played, but I remember them feeling fine and having some really cool level design.

For some reason the Classic stages in Forces are reminding me more of Sonic 4 than Generations.
 

MrBadger

Member
Wow, I could not disagree more.

Fantastic zone.

I thought it could have been a great zone if they did something with the huge robot, and act 1 was cool, but I really didn't enjoy act 2. Every other zone in the game has awesome replay value but that one makes you see everything in one play-through by splitting into 4 distinct routes you have to go down. I was at least expecting a Mega Man style boss rush in each route. Still, Mania has eleven great levels and one so-so one.
 

Piers

Member
Alright, so that's: Avenue Park, Green Hill, and this.
Hopefully they finish designing the rest of the stages before it releases on Nov 7th!

It's an evolution of the same engine created for Sonic Unleashed, I don't think that should be the problem. Already been used for multiple Sonic games.

IMO, I think they wanted to make a totally different game, different than the Generations style, but after Lost World tanked and wasn't well received, they had to scrap it and make "Generations 2" quickly as a safe route.
That could be a good bet, although it's had a sizeable interim between Lost World's release and now, about three years. They might have been trying to experiment with various ideas, prototyping, and couldn't nail any design in place that satisfied them.
It's also possible that Sega might have enforced specific, focus-grouping features onto the team that necessitated a total restart mid-development. The whole idea of a rebellion and player-created character just doesn't seem like something the developers would naturally think to come up with. It's chasing trends.
 

Sriracha_X

Neo Member
The music is actually quite catchy, not gonna lie. Makes me think of Sonic 3D Blast. It sounds almost like an actual Genesis track instead of the garbage in Sonic 4.

But the rest of everything else? Just from watching the footage, it seems that Generation's physics are in play here and those aren't good IMO. The proliferation of boost pads makes for level design that detracts away from the momentum-based gameplay of classic Sonic. The rest of the level just doesn't....wow me at all.
 
So is there just one guy working on the stage music for this game? Is it the same person who composed the classic tracks in Generations? Because those were fine.

The music is just underwhelming all around. I've sort of come around on the title theme, Green Hill is terrible, the Metal Sonic theme sounds off and inferior to the Generations remix, Sunset Village or whatever it's called just sounds meh.

I haven't really listened to the Lost World soundtrack for a more recent comparison, but the music I've heard is much better. Though I guess they were going for a more lighthearted almost Mario feel for that game?
 

Blues1990

Member
Fake genesis music didnt work in Sonic 4 but they keep trying.

It really bothers me that the Genesis fan remixes of STH4's soundtrack sound much more authentic than the real thing.

Sky Fortress (Act's I-III) from Episode 2 are my favourite tracks from the OST, but said remixes blow them out of the water.
 
I don't agree Planet Wisp does it well though, that's kinda *my* point. It's two very distinct parts of the level, the nature one is great, the 'industrial' part is... orange walls everywhere. It doesn't really look good nor does it blend well with nature.

This one, while not perfect, actually seems to integrate both well enough for me.

It isn't supposed to blend well between the two areas on Generations, Robotnik isn't trying to preserve the world of the wisps, he is just trying to industrialize it. The point is the merging of them is done more solidly in both Generations and Colors. IT is supposed to be taking over.
Colors Act 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqMevxSKiCQ

You also see active evidence of it being converted, panels that look incomplete, workers in the background, etc.

Here's some screenshots I just took of Generations:


The addition of Casino elements to this level come off as very bland. The entirety of the level appears too flat. If there are ruins being converted, why aren't there more apparent ruins in the background? Why aren't there crumbling parts? The lighting doesn't feel like it is properly illuminating the ruins with its bright neon casino visuals.


I would say this is probably the best looking bit of the stage. Proper illumination, decent mix between the casino implementation of the natural ruins theme. But the rest just doesn't stand up. It doesn't feel like a mix, it just feels like a casino level.
Mirage Saloon, is a good merge of the Saloon/Casino elements and the Desert backdrop. Especially Knuckles' act 1.

Fuck, this looks reallyyy baaaad!
Why can they make awesome graphics like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8cOWGoAxVw

this had me in stitches.

Hmm, yeah you're probably right. I didn't consider the PC version of Generations being as well optimized as it was. Honestly, shit, I don't know wtf happened then. Worth remembering though that the Hedgehog Engine and whatever proprietary in-house core game engine that use are technically two different things. I want to say Colors and Lost World were made in the latter and it's likely the physics suck because they never bothered coding that in. Classic Sonic's gameplay is just a tweaked modern Sonic when you get down to it, in the same way that the furry dollmaker is.

As I said, Hedgehog engine is a lighting engine, Sonic Generation's physics was Havok. (I decided to actually look it up as well)

http://info.sonicretro.org/Hedgehog_Engine
Lost World uses the Hedgehog engine as well.

Hidden springs in the classic games were placed placed within / inside the platform, so you didn't see them (or could barely see the tops of them). In the footage, the springs are just made invisible objects that spontaneously appear out of thin air when the player comes into contact with them.

Moreover, these invisible springs are being placed at the end of ramps. Rather than the game using the utilizing the character's momentum/physics and level design to make the player fly off the ramps, the designers are instead resorting to using springs to do that for them--and making them hidden until the player touches them is to try and hide the fact that they're even there.

It's visually and functionally sloppy design, and an overall poor use of smoke-and-mirrors to hide how obviously directed/automated those level setpieces are.

The second one isn't actually on a ramp, but the fact sonic auto-boosted through that area made no sense to begin with.

Now here's a personal take after thinking long and hard:

Sonic can be two things. Much like Mario has it's 2D gamestyle and 3D gamestyle, Sonic can have its 2D gamestyle and 3D gamestyle.
However, I've come to the conclusion SEGA has yet to merge the two well, and maybe for all intents and purposes, should avoid merging them.

3D Sonic can have it's 2D parts, that's fine, but they will always inherently play different than pure 2D sonic, and I'm okay with that. Boost gameplay is fun for different reasons than 2D gameplay. We'll have boost pads in 2D segments for 3D Sonic and that will be okay, as long as 3D fans get games they want, and 2D fans get games that they want as well. And I'm not saying every 2D sonic needs to be sprite based. I'm sure the good minds behind Mania can work to make a 3D version of their engine, or rather, a 2.5D. (3D models, only 2D gameplay.)

This doesn't look good, we have to admit it's missing a layer of polish. Am I going to buy it? Probably. Maybe I'll wait for a discount. I don't see myself fully skipping out on this entry in it's entirety unless it somehow proves to be absolute junk like sonic 06.
 
The second one isn't actually on a ramp, but the fact sonic auto-boosted through that area made no sense to begin with.

Yeah, the second one is more of a small half-pipe rather than a ramp. Point still stands though (and I do agree, that spring is redundant since it's placed after an already automated sequence as it is).

This doesn't look good, we have to admit it's missing a layer of polish. Am I going to buy it? Probably. Maybe I'll wait for a discount. I don't see myself fully skipping out on this entry in it's entirety unless it somehow proves to be absolute junk like sonic 06.

In addition to waiting for a discount / a sale / the game going down in price, you can also buy it used / secondhand, or give it a rental. If you feel that you need to get the game but also making a statement that you're not entirely happy with Forces, that is.
 

Camjo-Z

Member
The music is actually quite catchy, not gonna lie. Makes me think of Sonic 3D Blast. It sounds almost like an actual Genesis track instead of the garbage in Sonic 4.

The composition is definitely way better than Sonic 4's, but I do wish they'd stop spamming that obnoxious drum sample when they're trying to do faux Classic Sonic music. Sure, it was in the classic games' music, but it wasn't nearly as overbearing and used much more sparingly.

So is there just one guy working on the stage music for this game? Is it the same person who composed the classic tracks in Generations? Because those were fine.

The music is just underwhelming all around. I've sort of come around on the title theme, Green Hill is terrible, the Metal Sonic theme sounds off and inferior to the Generations remix, Sunset Village or whatever it's called just sounds meh.

I really like the Park Avenue theme. The custom character's level themes seem to always have lyrics in them, even if that ends up being the worst gameplay style at least their music should be worth it.
 

Gartooth

Member
Fucking hell that looks bad, like why even bother adding a forest theme if it straight up copies Casino Night. This level shows tons of problems with the physics and design that others have already pointed out.
 
Yeah, the second one is more of a small half-pipe rather than a ramp. Point still stands though (and I do agree, that spring is redundant since it's placed after an already automated sequence as it is).


In addition to waiting for a discount / a sale / the game going down in price, you can also buy it used / secondhand, or give it a rental. If you feel that you need to get the game but also making a statement that you're not entirely happy with Forces, that is.

Wait, how is it a half pipe? He exits that area in a straight horizontal line.

Here, I linked to the exact place in the video: https://youtu.be/qzWmmUBmUAo?t=38s

Additionally, the true issue is the spring didn't need to be hidden, it could've just been placed at the end of the "tube"-thing.
 
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