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[Neiteio]

No it wouldn't have. Shit taste confirmed, opinion on subject ignored. *stamp*

No, it really would've been just as effective without "fuck." You know this. The power was how the characters barely said anything; they could've said nothing and communicated with glances alone (which was the source of all the scene's power in the first place) and it would've been just as effective. What those profilers were dealing with was intrinsically fucked up but they don't need a word to add to the fact, it being the bread-n-butter of their line of work and nothing out of the norm for them. Saying "Hmm" with different levels of inflection would've been all the same, but shows like this thrive precisely because their audience feels special "appreciating" things they perceive others to be turned off by, in this case nudity and swearing. Both of which are fine, but to suggest saying "fuck" over and over was anything more than a gimmick in this scene is reaching. It was powerful because it was two dudes who knew their shit so well they were practically psychic in their link. Nothing more, nothing less. Period.

And nobody's saying ND shouldn't have creative freedom to swear. We just don't want it to be poorly written and implemented like every other game in existence. Do it well or don't do it at all, because failure means it looks like juvenile kiddie shit.

 

[Amir0x]

Sure it can be great with lots of cursing, doesn't mean it would be with juvenile and excessive cursing. There is a big difference and without seeing the game we don't really know which it will be.

What is 'juvenile' to you? What number of curses is too many before it's 'excessive'? You're putting random and completely arbitrary limits on the creativity of someone before starting to apply a negative label to it, and it is simply not something that other mediums have to deal with it. This is the end of the world. There is no such thing as excessive cursing.

The power was how the characters barely said anything; they could've said nothing and communicated with glances alone (which was the source of all the scene's power in the first place) and it would've been just as effective.

Like I said, shit taste confirmed. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about, and thus it's impossible to take any future opinions on the subject seriously. The Wire is one of the greatest tv shows ever made, if not THE greatest. There are a million shows with scenes of detectives finding clues in abject silence. Yet, in one of the greatest shows ever made, if you ask anyone who has seen the show what a list of the top ten scenes are, this one is sure to come up. It's extremely memorable. It has power that an otherwise 'traditional' scene would not; it says more about the characters of these two living in the supremely dangerous city of Baltimore and the trust they share and the number of meanings they are getting out of the word 'fuck' than if they would have hmm'd at each other or looked at each other would not have equaled. The fact that you think the praise over that Wire scene is about some television elitism shows just where you're at: shit taste confirmed, as I said.

 

[Antioch]

What is 'juvenile' to you? What number of curses is too many before it's 'excessive'? You're putting random and completely arbitrary limits on the creativity of someone before starting to apply a negative label to it, and it is simply not something that other mediums have to deal with it. This is the end of the world. There is no such thing as excessive cursing.

My point is that the end of the world doesn't need "dicktits" to provide immersion and convince the audience.

 

[Amir0x]

My point is that the end of the world doesn't need "dicktits" to provide immersion and convince the audience.

Your point is that Last Of Us doesn't need to be an ode to 80s hard R action flicks like Bulletstorm? That's what your hemming and hawing is about? Well, it doesn't take a genius to know that's not the type of cursing they're going for here. They're going for 'it's the end of the world, holy shit nobody gives a fuck about cursing anymore, because it's the end of the goddamn world and cursing is just part of every day vocabulary.'

 

[Neiteio]

It has power that an otherwise 'traditional' scene would not; it says more about the characters of these two living in the supremely dangerous city of Baltimore and the trust they share and the number of meanings they are getting out of the word 'fuck' than if they would have hmm'd at each other or looked at each other would not have equaled. The fact that you think the praise over that Wire scene is about some television elitism shows just where you're at: shit taste confirmed, as I said.

It would've worked the same way without the word, but whatever, if you can't imagine this I don't really care.

The bottom line is, if they put lots of swearing in The Last of Us, they better do it well, or it will come off silly. End of story. It's the problem every cuss-loaded videogame must conquer unless they're completely slapstick like Bulletstorm.

Also, plenty of end-of-the-world stories feature little to no swearing. I don't recall excessive swearing in War of the Worlds. What's really needed, at the end of the day, are characters you care about.

 

[Antioch]

Your point is that Last Of Us doesn't need to be an ode to 80s hard R action flicks like Bulletstorm? That's what your hemming and hawing is about? Well, it doesn't take a genius to know that's not the type of cursing they're going for here. They're going for 'it's the end of the world, holy shit nobody gives a fuck about cursing anymore, because it's the end of the goddamn world and cursing is just part of every day vocabulary.'

Hemming and hawing? It really seems to me like you're just looking for an argument, all I've been saying is that it's fine for there to be cursing, lots too if there really needs to be, and that I hope Naughty Dog doesn't use it inappropriately, but I'll reserve judgement until we see footage. What's wrong with that?

 

[Neiteio]

Hemming and hawing? It really seems to me like you're just looking for an argument, all I've been saying is that it's fine for there to be cursing, lots too if there really needs to be, and that I hope Naughty Dog doesn't use it inappropriately, but I'll reserve judgement until we see footage. What's wrong with that?

He probably had a bad day.

 

[Antioch]

He probably had a bad day.

Either way why are we still on the swearing discussion? It's something we can't even access yet and is ultimately a minuscule part of the game.

 

[Amir0x]

Hemming and hawing? It really seems to me like you're just looking for an argument, all I've been saying is that it's fine for there to be cursing, lots too if there really needs to be, and that I hope Naughty Dog doesn't use it inappropriately, but I'll reserve judgement until we see footage. What's wrong with that?

Nothing. But that's not really what you and others have been saying. Since the moment Game Informer called out the cursing, it has been 'oh god i hope it's not juvenile shit, too much cursing ruins things!' And from others it has been 'I'm not playing it because the Bible tells me so.' But, of course, nobody is defining what 'too much cursing' is; it's just a byproduct of heightened sensibilities for things that don't matter. We know this isn't going to be Bulletstorm. This is two people surviving in an end of the world scenario and Naughty Dog has proclaimed they want this to be a very serious narrative. They're not going to be 'bitch tits' and 'suck my balls, I just blew that dudes brains out with my goddamn cunt gun!' They're going to be stuck against a wall, breathing heavily, going 'fuck fuck fuck' as a horrible spore zombie passes them by.

This whole issue has been one of imagined problems, wherein people are commenting on it to create a controversy. There's nothing here. People need to get over cursing, it is not serious. It's not even that serious within the realm of gaming, for fuck's sake. Very few games just sit around abusing cursing all day where it also doesn't make sense within the context of the game they've created.

The problem with most game stories is just the writing is awful, and it almost always has nothing to do with the cursing.

He probably had a bad day.

A bad day? My day has been fantastic, start to end. And it just finished off with the most amazing Giants win. Don't try to pivot for having a shit, non-sensical opinion. It happens to the best of us

 

[Irish]

It really seems to me like you're just looking for an argument

Hello. My name is Amir0x. I don't believe we've met.


_

At the end of the day, swearing seems perfectly natural. It's not like the sentences are going to consist of nothing but curses.

 

[Neiteio]

A bad day? My day has been fantastic, start to end. And it just finished off with the most amazing Giants win. Don't try to pivot for having a shit, non-sensical opinion. It happens to the best of us

I don't think less of you for having a shit, non-sensical opinion, not the least of which includes you continually overlooking the fact that it takes storytelling skill to do anything in excess without looking ridiculous, which has been and remains the sole concern here, that whether they're saying "fuck fuck fuck" or some other end-of-the-world-appropriate phrase like "oh my god oh my god oh my god," it can come off as laughable and trying too hard rather than heart-wrenching or pulse-pounding or genuine, if not done correctly. They have every right to write what they want, however much they want, and no one's challenging that. What we question is whether this is a sign of appropriate usage and balanced storytelling as you seem to optimistically suggest, despite the fact we've seldom if ever seen this pulled off effectively in games before, or if it's a sign of the usual middle school take on "adult" storytelling that gives vidgames its juvenile rep in the first place. I'm fine with swearing, lots of swearing, Amir0x-cursing-at-autostereoscopic-3D-levels of swearing, but it has to be smartly done. The context suits it, but so does the context of many battlefield videogames where it somehow still manages to come off retarded. That's because context isn't everything -- context and -execution- is. So... We'll wait and see, and hope for the best.

 

[Amir0x]

I don't think less of you for having a shit, non-sensical opinion, not the least of which includes you continually overlooking the fact that it takes storytelling skill to do anything in excess without looking ridiculous, which has been and remains the sole concern here, that whether they're saying "fuck fuck fuck" or some other end-of-the-world-appropriate phrase like "oh my god oh my god oh my god," it can come off as laughable and trying too hard rather than heart-wrenching or pulse-pounding or genuine, if not done correctly. They have every right to write what they want, however much they want, and no one's challenging that. What we question is whether this is a sign of appropriate usage and balanced storytelling as you seem to optimistically suggest, despite the fact we've seldom if ever seen this pulled off effectively in games before, or if it's a sign of the usual middle school take on "adult" storytelling that gives vidgames its juvenile rep in the first place. I'm fine with swearing, lots of swearing, Amir0x-cursing-at-autostereoscopic-3D-levels of swearing, but it has to be smartly done. The context suits it, but so does the context of many battlefield videogames where it somehow still manages to come off retarded. That's because context isn't everything -- context and -execution- is. So... We'll wait and see, and hope for the best.

Alright, I'll give you a simple project. Please define for me at precisely what moment the swearing in a war game like Battlefield 3 becomes 'juvenile' and when it is appropriate, and what aspects of the execution need to be right for it to be considered 'mature'? I'm genuinely curious. I think Battlefield 3's narrative is awful because it has awful writing, which incidentally is completely unrelated to the cursing. Because the cursing was exactly as it is in the military and on the field; I work with people in the military all the time considering where I'm employed.

There are very few games that anyone can point to and say 'well the cursing was juvenile' in a game where the cursing was actually juvenile, because in every single case it is the weak writing/characterization/etc and nothing to do with cursing that kills these stories. Nobody ever actually defines what makes these things juvenile, and they certainly don't list the line.

So, Battlefield 3's cursing is juvenile and poorly executed because ____________, and the cursing in _______________ is an example of good well executed expletives because of ___________.


Also, don't get it twisted. I don't optimistically expect anything out of Last Of Us story, except for it to suck. But I expect it to suck, as usual, for nothing to do with cursing.

 

[cnizzle06]

Alright, I'll give you a simple project. Please define for me at precisely what moment the swearing in a war game like Battlefield 3 becomes 'juvenile' and when it is appropriate, and what aspects of the execution need to be right for it to be considered 'mature'? I'm genuinely curious. I think Battlefield 3's narrative is awful because it has awful writing, which incidentally is completely unrelated to the cursing. Because the cursing was exactly as it is in the military and on the field; I work with people in the military all the time considering where I'm employed.

There are very few games that anyone can point to and say 'well the cursing was juvenile' in a game where the cursing was actually juvenile, because in every single case it is the weak writing/characterization/etc and nothing to do with cursing that kills these stories. Nobody ever actually defines what makes these things juvenile, and they certainly don't list the line.

So, Battlefield 3's cursing is juvenile and poorly executed because ____________, and the cursing in _______________ is an example of good executed expletives because of ___________.


Also, don't get it twisted. I don't optimistically expect anything out of Last Of Us story, except for it to suck. But I expect it to suck, as usual, for nothing to do with cursing.

Whatever you say dick-tits!

 

[Neiteio]

My cousin's a marine who was fighting in bombed-out city streets in Iraq, not moving supplies around in a warehouse. I've heard some stories as well. Yes, swearing in war happens. But so do screams of fear, panicked mutterings, hurried reassurances to one another, whispered prayers and sputtering exclamations of surprise. Half of the time they don't even know or see who they're killing amid the smoke and debris so they don't have a face to swear at in the first place. Battlefield 3's principal failing, as you say, is its cardboard-thin characterization. Without the context of a human heart to justify it, though, the swearing seems silly. A battlefield full of explosions isn't enough. Again: context and -execution.- If Last of Us doesn't have all the other humanizing elements fully accounted for, that swearing will stand out like a sore thumb.

 

[Antioch]

Alright, I'm going to give you an example. I don't remember exact quotes or anything but still. In Assassin's Creed 1 there was (I think) no swearing, Assassin's Creed 2? Lots of instances in the modern day sections, where 'fuck' was just thrown in there for the hell of it, and made everything sound somewhat ridiculous every time it was said.

Now a good use of the f word came in Dead Space 2, right at the end when starting the final boss. Isaac yells "FUCK YOU!" and it just fit, the VA and overall execution was great.

These are just examples I'm remembering right now, Assassin's Creed with swearing for the sake of it, and Dead Space 2, which combined with decent voice acting, actually got a point across, one of desperation, which should be similar to what TLOU should be going for.

 

[Amir0x]

My cousin's a marine who was fighting in bombed-out city streets in Iraq, not moving supplies around in a warehouse. I've heard some stories as well. Yes, swearing in war happens. But so do screams of fear, panicked mutterings, hurried reassurances to one another, whispered prayers and sputtering exclamations of surprise. Half of the time they don't even know or see who they're killing amid the smoke and debris so they don't have a face to swear at in the first place. Battlefield 3's principal failing, as you say, is its cardboard-thin characterization. Without the context of a human heart to justify it, though, the swearing seems silly. A battlefield full of explosions isn't enough. Again: context and -execution.-

Watch Restrepo. Also, I don't hear stories. I actually work for the military. I hear how men in uniform curse all the time.

Protip: They curse non-stop, rapid fire, like firecrackers exploding on the fourth of july.

Also, your comment as to why the cursing SPECIFICALLY is bad don't make sense. So, the only relevant cursing that is a script with good characterization? Because the developers of Battlefield 3 knew they were going to make a crap story, they should have stripped the completely tone appropriate cursing because they are incapable of writing?

The cursing itself is at issue. You're basically saying that unless everything around the cursing is good, the cursing is always juvenile. But as anyone can tell you, these things can and are parsed: there are good elements of things, and bad elements of things and cursing is a category that does quite often work on its own. Battlefield 3 would have made no sense without the cursing considering where its war was. What you're suggesting would have actually made the game even WORSE.

 

[Antioch]

Watch Restrepo. Also, I don't hear stories. I actually work for the military. I hear how men in uniform curse all the time.

Protip: They curse non-stop, rapid fire, like firecrackers exploding on the fourth of july.

I'm guessing this is off the Battlefield?

 

[Kinyou]

"Hey, it's that dog."

But yeah that would be great.

let's be honest here... Who the hell wouldn't help the dog during the first play-through? I mean what kind of sick minded fuck shoots a dog caught in a bear trap?!?! GODDAMN IT! /hyperbole

 

[Loudninja]

Ah...

 

[Neiteio]

I see where your confusion lies now, Ami. Let's go back to what we mutually perceive ND's intent to be with this game. As you say, Battlefield 3 knows they have shit storytelling so they get down pat the one part they can, the swearing in reaction to killing and mass chaos, which is understandable and not foreign in military culture. OK. But then we got ND, which is aiming to create something that actually has a good story. I'm saying excessive swearing won't carry that story; characters will, and swearing can help develop the characters' situations, sure, but not to the exclusion of other humanizing traits, these not being flat characters and all. And if a game tries to be "serious" but only has swearing going for it, well, swearing by itself isn't terribly realistic, either -- again, 1D -- and so it's a trip that makes these sort of games fall all the harder, if they don't have their other ducks lined up.

I don't really see where we're disagreeing, other than the supposed brilliance of that Wire scene that's neither here nor there.

 

[Amir0x]

I'm guessing this is off the Battlefield?

Well, we also go to field. Up until recently the depot also made field trips on bases in Iraq and still do for Afghanistan (and pretty much anywhere else in the world which has bases with American military equipment to service). Civilian side work, but we interact with soldiers all the time and often are teaching them the skills they are going to need to troubleshoot the equipment on the battlefield. So, we get to experience the troops in quite a natural state, and that natural state is "fucking hell, are you sure we gotta fucking do this goddamn thing?"

I see where your confusion lies now, Ami. Let's go back to what we mutually perceive ND's intent to be with this game. As you say, Battlefield 3 knows they have shit storytelling so they get down pat the one part they can, the swearing in reaction to killing and mass chaos, which is understandable and not foreign in military culture. OK. But then we got ND, which is aiming to create something that actually has a good story. I'm saying excessive swearing won't carry that story; characters will, and swearing can help develop the characters' situations, sure, but not to the exclusion of other humanizing traits, these not being flat characters and all. And if a game tries to be "serious" but only has swearing going for it, well, swearing by itself isn't terribly realistic, either -- again, 1D -- and so it's a trip that makes thes sort of games fall all the harder, if they don't have their other ducks lined up.

Of course. But if the only thing Naughty Dog had during scenes is swearing I think they have more trouble on their hands than swearing.

I don't really see where we're disagreeing, other than the supposed brilliance of that Wire scene that's neither here nor there.

Seriously though. Silent and otherwise normal investigative scenes are done all the time on tv and movies, they're a dime and dozen. Hardly anyone remembers them. But in what is widely considered one of the greatest TV shows ever written, if not THE greatest, in a list of top ten scenes from the show, this one constantly comes up in discussion. It shows up so consistently it might as well be a mainstay. And everyone remembers it. And everyone praises it.

I'm just suggesting there is a very clear reason for that, and not understanding why makes it sort of difficult to think you understand when and where swearing is an asset.

 

[Antioch]

let's be honest here... Who the hell wouldn't help the dog during the first play-through? I mean what kind of sick minded fuck shoots a dog caught in a bear trap?!?! GODDAMN IT!

*slowly raises hand*

Just kidding, I never even thought about the fact that you could do something other than save it.

 

[HyperBitHero]

So we gets some new info and all you guys care about is the swearing....

 

[Neiteio]

So we gets some new info and all you guys care about is the swearing....

Fuck you!

 

[Kinyou]

*slowly raises hand*

Just kidding, I never even thought about the fact that you could do something other than save it.

You're an angel among men.

 

[Antioch]

Ah...

EXACTLY

You're an angel among men.

Don't I know it

 

[SentientStone]

I am not too worried about the swearing as I have enough faith in Naughty Dog to know that they would do it tastefully and within good context.

 

[Loudninja]

So what do you guys want to see for multiplayer?

 

[Massa]

So what do you guys want to see for multiplayer?

Voice chat, so I can swear a lot at other people's sensitive ears.

 

[AgentChris]

So what do you guys want to see for multiplayer?

Co-op side missions like Uncharted 2/3 and survival with 3-5 friends taking down the infected.

 

[cnizzle06]

So what do you guys want to see for multiplayer?

Lots of swearing.

 

[Loudninja]

Voice chat, so I can swear a lot at other people's sensitive ears.

Haha.

Co-op side missions like Uncharted 2/3 and survival with 3-5 friends taking down the infected.

Yeah, that would be interesting Infected vs everyone else.

 

[Yamibito]

This thread has gone down the fucking shitter.

 

[paperheart]

Co-op side missions like Uncharted 2/3 and survival with 3-5 friends taking down the infected.

I would be really pleased with that.

 

[Antioch]

So what do you guys want to see for multiplayer?

I want to play an infected and stalk a guy who only has one bullet through the ruins of a city... at night.

 

[arne]

really I just read 7 pages of people discussing the swearing based on the impression of "everybody swears during combat" which was gleaned from only a 10min slice of the game? *shakes head* haha

and you can't compare this to kickass or other things - nobody knows what this world could be like, or you don't know yet with ellie's upbringing was. so right now we can't judge whether it's contrived or not.

for the record, when i was around that age, everybody i was with would try to swear as much as possible because it was shocking and we were trying to be adults. the difference was we didn't do it around adults.

 

[Irish]

So what do you guys want to see for multiplayer?

No guns. Badass melee combat. I want GAF games reminiscent of our U2 melee-only matches. I want to throw a 2x4 into AgentChris' face to win a match. So good.

 

[mclaren777]

Really? Her cussing is the thing that makes you want to not play it?

The zombies are enough to do that, but this is the icing on the cake that will cause me to not even download the demo.

 

[AgentChris]

No guns. Badass melee combat. I want GAF games reminiscent of our U3 melee-only matches. I want to throw a 2x4 into AgentChris' face to win a match. So good.

I hope the MP will allow us to pull off melee combos like the SP of Uncharted 3 and Batman.

 

[Shadow of the BEAST]

i hope they dont show as much as they did with uncharted 3. Alot of the holy shit moments where had in gifs rather than when you actually played it. I mean the impact of say the horse-ride chase would have been much better if i had not seen it before.

Anyways. about the swearing. This is suppose to be years after the apocalypse, and as far is i understand it the girl has never actually seen civilisation or culture anything really, its just survival day in day out. I dont see it as out of place if the girl rough language.

of courase if its ru-rah fuck ya zombie bitches type of thing then it gets ridiculous.

 

[Antioch]

The zombies are enough to do that, but this is the icing on the cake that will cause me to not even download the demo.

Have you read the info? 'Zombies' if you can even call them that are going to be rare encounters, the main enemies are scavengers.

 

[FantasticMrFoxdie]

The nature of the AI sound awesome and i'm eager to hear what they have planned with the online components.

lol @ this thread. Of course after all the interesting details just given, it deviates to something so nonsensic....wait a sec...HOLY F*CK FACE EVERYONE, ELLIE LOOKS LIKE THAT F*CKING LADY FROM F*CKING JUNO! I'm f*ckin incepted right now bros.

 

[LowEndTorque]

The zombies are enough to do that, but this is the icing on the cake that will cause me to not even download the demo.

This is an awesome methodology for determining whether a game may be worthwhile or not.

Game has zombies in it? Not worth playing.

Game has swearing in it? Not even worth downloading the demo.

I should start following rules like this since it clearly provides a means of quickly and accurately determining the quality of unreleased games and will save me from wasting my time on obvious garbage.

 

[Brimstone]

So what do you guys want to see for multiplayer?

Melee to have five distinct damage aspects to cause physical trauma to player models...

Edge damage for things that cut like swords and claws.

Point damage for things that stab like spear thrusts, needles, or arrows.

Blunt damage for blows that dont penetrate armor, stick/club strikes, bear hug or squeeze in grapple situations.

Flange for hard edge strikes such as a mace, a sword that isn't sharpened, falling down into a area with lots of debris like a ruined building (broken concrete and rusty rebar) or smashing someones head into a side of a table.

Heat/Cold for being burned with a fire, being burned by acid, or electrocuted (taser).


Armor to have defensive ratings in these 5 aspects.


Time of Flight properties for projectiles.

Throwing a dagger, grenade, or spear slow movement so a bit easier to dodge.

Firing an arrow from a bow medium speed so difficult to dodge.

Discharing a firearm fast so basicly impossible to dodge.



For single player I want to see some attention to detail like carrying Blow Out kits and Randall knives being of epic quality.

 

[shinobi602]

Didn't they say there won't be multiplayer?

 

[Pachimari]

Not specifically. They have only stated, that it'll have some kind of 'online component' and that it'll be awesome.

 

[Loudninja]

Didn't they say there won't be multiplayer?

No.

 

[inky]

I read the OP the other day and thought it was OK. Never even imagined that people would go on for several pages discussing the fucking swearing in this game, lol. That was like, the last thing on my mind after reading the first impressions.

 

[Loudninja]

I read the OP the other day and thought it was OK. Never even imagined that people would go on for several pages discussing the fucking swearing in this game, lol. That was like, the last thing on my mind after reading the first impressions.

That how it is not much we can do about it but try and have other discussions.

The article is base on only 10 minutes of gameplay.

 

[Ricky_R]

That how it is not much we can do about it but try and have other discussions.

The article is base on only 10 minutes of gameplay.

That's just for some cursing in a post apocalyptic world filled with murders and monsters. Imagine if ND says that the game will have many set-pieces? O.O