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How do you feel about city smoking bans?

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SmokyDave

Member
But then, why didn't the always efficient and never incorrect invisible hand attempt that on its own? My (potentially incorrect) take on it is that people didn't realize how much they wanted it until they got it. Why didn't business owners just try this on their own? I think it was because there was this image that smoking and drinking went hand in hand. Casinos and bar owners were terrified that the smoking bans would destroy their business overnight. As such, without prodding from the government, any one person trying it I think would have been met with disastrous results, or at least the perception of that happening was too terrifying to attempt. "We can't ban smoking. If we do, all the smokers will just go across the street to the smoking bar."

See, it was moving that way, albeit slowly. There was a non-smoking bar in Nottingham prior to the smoking ban. By anecdotal observation, they seemed to be doing OK. Not so much after the ban though.

I really think we ought to have tried it, rather than dismissing it out of hand. Apply different tax brackets to make opening a smoking bar less appealing if people are hellbent on social engineering.
 

Zoe

Member
I love the complaints about people smoking in entryways and right outside of businesses in the walkways.
You didn't want them inside with you smoking? Then that is where you put them.

Dunno about other places, but in Austin you're not supposed to smoke within 20 feet of any entrances.

Here's my perspective; I'm a non-smoker. I grew up with two parents who smoked my whole life. I never really noticed it. I had lung troubles, but nothing too bad and nothing I'd directly relate to their smoking. When I moved out of my mother's house I pretty immediately became super sensitive to smoke. Now when I go back to her house, I immediately smell it.

Huh, I didn't know that was a thing. It wasn't until I moved away and lived smoke free that I realized how disgusting my house was and how much my clothes stunk. Really makes me feel bad for all the other kids I brought over when I was young :\
 

Wthermans

Banned
If an initiative can't get on the ballot because they didn't go outside of bars to get signatures from smokers, they have no one to blame but themselves.

Once again, it's far more difficult to repeal something that is simply personal preference (especially when you need 1000x more signatures than votes it took to pass).
 

EYEL1NER

Member
Pretty much. Unfortunately in Pittsburgh they pussied out and provided too many exemptions making the smoking ban is total crap.

Smoking is only banned in bars and clubs as long as less then a certain amount of your revenue doesn't come from food. All this did it make all the places that sold food get rid of it.
So while immersed in a cloud of poisonous death vapors being exhaled from every direction at their faces, people now people have to be hungry too?
I love it.
 

EYEL1NER

Member
Dunno about other places, but in Austin you're not supposed to smoke within 20 feet of any entrances.
20 feet? That seems a bit excessive to me. Hell, on base it was 10 feet from any opening to a govt building to include windows.
 

dudeworld

Member
the whole "health" boom would have gotten rid of smoking on its own without the help from the government. The government just made the process much quicker. I can't even imagine going into a bar, club, restaurant or an airplane with smoke filling the room. I wasn't born when flights allowed smoking, but I remember being small and going on airplanes and they still reeked of cigarette smoke because the plane used to allow smoking.

In class at school if someone just finished smoking before class and then comes and sits near me, it's almost unbearable. Simply just the smell on their clothes.

When I was looking for a house with a real estate agent and they would take us to see a house and it smelled like smoke in there, it was put on my no-buy list instantly, regardless of any other factors.
 

turnbuckle

Member
I'm going to totally evade the question about how I feel or what's right or wrong, and just make an observation.


Many cities have passed smoking bans. In all of those cities, there has been an angry opposition to smoking bans. It's hard to say if opposition sentiment is a loud minority or a majority, but whatever the case, the cities pass the smoking bans anyway.

In the immediate wake of the smoking ban there is some small local news coverage about individual bars and restaurants having more or less traffic. The coverage might conclude that there has been a negative impact on restaurants/bars or it might not. The issue of smoker's rights is not covered at this stage, having already been totally ignored.

Within 6-9 months, no one cares anymore. It is accepted as a fact of reality. Smokers in some bars might smoke indoors while holding open the back door or otherwise "cheat", but by and large smoky bars and restaurants have ceased to exist, non-smokers don't care, smokers don't care, they go outside to smoke if they want to.

Within a few years, the idea that anyone could smoke in a restaurant or bar seems quaint and distant, like a memory not quite remembered right. Remember when all the bars used to be hazy and hard to see in it? Yeah, kinda, I guess? It's hard to really remember.

No city ever repeals a smoking ban after the fact.



So with that in mind, without actually making an argument for or against the merits of the ban itself, without actually talking about economic or business rights or smokers rights or any other argument on either side, without talking about the smell or second hand smoke... without actually addressing the issue--

--given that we already know that no one will care a year or two from now in your city, and no one will care a year or two from now in any city that passes it, is there even a discussion to be had here? It's so ephemeral. It's simply not going to be a thing a little while from now. It's not going to be an ongoing knock-down drag-out that goes back and forth for years or decades, the way most controversial policies do. My city passed a bar smoking ban around 2003 or 2004 or something, but I don't think any restaurants allowed smoking without a thick solid divider for maybe 8 or so years before that. I remember bars before the ban being hazy and smelly. I don't know if the ban has done anything, positive or negative. I just know the whole thing seems quaint when I hear people on the internet get fired up about it. That was so 10 years ago and absolutely no one where I live even thinks about it, let alone getting excitable enough to defend or attack it. It just is.

This is a perfect post. Michigan passed a smoking ban less than two years ago. I'm an occasional smoker (only smoke with company, only bum - never buy!) that would have one or two sometimes when going out for drinks or dinner with friends and I remember how upset my friends were that the ban was about to take place. I was happy it was passing, but in my mind I thought it'd be weird no longer seeing smokers in bars and restaurants. Fast forward 20 months and the idea of smoking inside restaurants seems as quaint as a full service gas station. It's the same feeling I felt when watching Mad Men and seeing the actors casually smoke at work (Our original office even had a smoking section and non-smoking section offices our first few years a decade ago).
 

Wthermans

Banned
Given that smoking bans have become so widespread, I do like how Tennessee is doing it. Basically a business can be smoke-free and serve whoever they want or the establishment can be made for patrons 21+ only and still allow smoking. It's allowed certain restaurants to thrive (and in many cases their revenue surpasses some nonsmoking establishments).
 

Xyphie

Member
It's completely vile. A business owner should be allowed to determine what goes on in his property. If you don't like smoking, you have the option of not going there.
 

TheExodu5

Banned
Ottawa has had a no-smoking bylaw since August 1st, 2001. A few days ago, they've proposed to extend it to include restaurant/bar patios and parks.

I'm in full support.
 

EYEL1NER

Member
Given that smoking bans have become so widespread, I do like how Tennessee is doing it. Basically a business can be smoke-free and serve whoever they want or the establishment can be made for patrons 21+ only and still allow smoking. It's allowed certain restaurants to thrive (and in many cases their revenue surpasses some nonsmoking establishments).
Doesn't sound bad.
It doesn't help the people who want a smoke-free bar, but it doesn't bother me. I don't go to a bar to sip on a beer, chat with people, and breath clean air. I go to get hammered so I can forget how much life sucks.

Looks like most, if not all, restaurants would be smoke-free too.
Yep, absolutely retarded isn't it?
Sorry, I was being sarcastic (is that the right word?) with the first sentence and serious with the second. I actually smiled at the idea when I saw it.
 

Bisnic

Really Really Exciting Member!
I can't imagine living in a time where smoking was allowed in planes. Restaurants and bars was one thing(you could leave the place if you couldnt stand the smoke), but planes? 4-6 hours of dealing with the smoke? Ugh, i can't imagine how it was. Since when is it banned in planes?
 

Angry Fork

Member
Is there any alternate motive to these bans besides health issues? It seems odd to me that congressman/political figures do something ONLY for the good of the people or whatever. Is there money to be made somehow by banning it in places?
 

lsslave

Jew Gamer
Is there any alternate motive to these bans besides health issues? It seems odd to me that congressman/political figures do something ONLY for the good of the people or whatever. Is there money to be made somehow by banning it in places?

A scapegoat to let people see the government working 'for them' ? (I know more smokers than non-smokers, a LOT more smokers than non-smokers. Although, my industry is packed with smokers, so that might be the reason why)
 
If smoking was a thing that only affected the smoker I would be against these bans completely. Thats not the case though.

It stinks and while I'm obviously not the norm, I am pretty allergic to cigarette smoke. It makes my eyes burn and my skin irritated if I come in contact with it.

I'm not the type to cry about second hand smoke potentially causing cancer though. You are not going to have that type of contact unless you live/work in close contact with a heavy smoker. I just have no problem with the banning of something that is irritating and uncomfortable for people beyond the user when it comes to public places.
 

bill0527

Member
Just ban it everywhere indoors except Casinos.

Can you explain why you feel casinos should be the exception?

Business owners in my city are more up in arms and threatening to sue over the Casino exemption, than they are the outright ban.

How can a city cite public health concerns, but then make exemptions based on the amount of tax revenue you provide to the city? Apparently, public health isn't really of great concern if your business pumps millions of dollars to the city every year.
 

JGS

Banned
Is there any alternate motive to these bans besides health issues? It seems odd to me that congressman/political figures do something ONLY for the good of the people or whatever. Is there money to be made somehow by banning it in places?
It's never portrayed as just that here. Concerning oneself with health costs is a fiscal reason. Equal rights for the employees was a big one too.

However, a lot of chain restaurants catered to non-smokers (Since they outnumber smokers) and they oftentimes were allies with politicians. An Applebee's franchise was extremely instrumental here (The CEO was vice-mayor to boot but most were fine with it). So it was a money issue. If it was for the good of people, they would just ban smoking period.
 

TheExodu5

Banned
FYI, here are the poll results for additional smoking bans in Ottawa:

http://www.ottawa.ca/en/health_safety/living/dat/tobacco/results/index.html


In 2005:

Doorways to public places
66%

Doorways to workplaces
65%

Outdoor Sports Field
54%

Hospital Campuses
59%

Playgrounds and Parks
71%

Patios
50%

Beaches
55%

In 2011:

Doorways to public places
84%

Doorways to workplaces
81%

Outdoor Sports Field
81%

Inside hotels, motels, B&B
78%

Hospital Campuses
78%

Municipal Properties
77%

Playgrounds and Parks
77%

Post-secondary campuses
74%

Patios
73%

Festivals, fairs, parades, markets
70%

Beaches
68%

Construction Sites
49%

Among respondents that have smoked in the past 30 days, the highest support was for doorways to public places (58.5%), outdoor sports fields (54.7%), hospitals (54.7%), doorways to workplaces (51.9%), playgrounds and parks (50%), and post-secondary campuses (46.2%).

The support for smoking bans is in the majority and clearly growing.
 

Tenks

Member
Ohio has had it banned for a while and I love it. When I lived in Cincinnati I dreaded having to go out with my friends to NKY simply because smoking was legal indoors.
 

Stet

Banned
Given that smoking bans have become so widespread, I do like how Tennessee is doing it. Basically a business can be smoke-free and serve whoever they want or the establishment can be made for patrons 21+ only and still allow smoking. It's allowed certain restaurants to thrive (and in many cases their revenue surpasses some nonsmoking establishments).

But that doesn't protect the restaurant / bar workers at all.
 

Dunlop

Member
Working in the healthcare sector (some hang out in a Oncology ward for a few weeks if you are looking for reasons to quit) , I am all for them. With the exception of bars, which I believe should be exempt
 

Sp3eD

0G M3mbeR
Best decision some cities / states ever made.

It boggles my mind how this didn't happen decades ago.
 

TheExodu5

Banned
Working in the healthcare sector (some hang out in a Oncology ward for a few weeks if you are looking for reasons to quit) , I am all for them. With the exception of bars, which I believe should be exempt

Why should bars be exempt? People should be able to go to bars without being exposed to second hand smoke.
 
I was watching a British film the other day and I was able to date it almost purely by the fact that one of the characters was smoking in a restaurant / pub type thing...

I smoked a little when I was younger, but I can't really say I had the habit -- it was more out of rebellion and because my friends were doing it that I did. I was a social smoker. My mum smoked like a chimney when I was a kid, I can remember the way it hung in the air in the living room and the kitchen -- she started trying to kick the habit just as the smoking ban came in and she was successful and claimed that it helped her - because both my mum and dad spend a lot of time at weekends socialising in the local pub. So on that level, I'm actually kind of grateful for it, but its also improved my own personal experience when I'm out and about too. I like not having to breath in other peoples' smoke. I can't even remember the last time I smelt it when I was around good food, and for that I am glad too.

There are two times when it sucks:

1) when whatever establishment you are in is so shitty and scummy that without the smell of smoke, the place stinks

2) when all the friends you are with are smokers and they keep having to go outside every 5 minutes for a ciggy
 

Chris R

Member
I wouldn't mind if there wasn't a ban, I'd just never go into a place that allowed it (restaurant/bar/ect) so it would be their loss (and I have a feeling that it would be a net loss of people who wouldn't go anymore vs people who would).
 

Stet

Banned
They don't have to work there and can get a job at any of the non-smoking establishments.

Sure, great idea. Now when the single mother who has to choose between feeding her kid or feeding herself goes to get a job in a society where nearly 10% of people are unemployed and twice that many are having trouble keeping a job, she can make another easy decision between working at a venue that offers her a toxic work environment or not working at all.
 

alphaNoid

Banned
You don't have the right to pollute other people's lungs, sorry. Kill yourself slowly at home and let the rest of us bask in the fresh air, and thrive into old age.

Smoking bans please me, greatly. This kid that lives near me smokes on his balcony and flicks his butts into the grass below. Guess what fuckstick? My son plays in that grass and you're a piece of shit. I reported him enough times and eventually got him on video tape doing it after he was warned to stop... he got evicted.

No sympathy, but I do respect a smokers right to kill themselves in the privacy of their own home.
 

Bitmap Frogs

Mr. Community
Sure, great idea. Now when the single mother who has to choose between feeding her kid or feeding herself goes to get a job in a society where nearly 10% of people are unemployed and twice that many are having trouble keeping a job, she can make another easy decision between working at a venue that offers her a toxic work environment or not working at all.

I like how people who supposedly work at imaginary smoking bars are always single mother who always have no choice other than working at the bar or become unemployed and by extension risking starvation/malnutrition of a kid.
 

Stet

Banned
I like how people who supposedly work at imaginary smoking bars are always single mother who always have no choice other than working at the bar or become unemployed and by extension risking starvation/malnutrition of a kid.

Who said always? If even one person's rights are infringed by the fact that people want to smoke, something's wrong. Smoking isn't a right, it's a privilege. Working in a safe and toxin-free environment, however, is a right.
 
I like how people who supposedly work at imaginary smoking bars are always single mother who always have no choice other than working at the bar or become unemployed and by extension risking starvation/malnutrition of a kid.
It may seem disingenuous, but such individuals do exist and using them evokes empathy. What's the alternative? Every single employee at a smoke-filled business is the Marlboro man who resents the government infringing on his right to choose to inhale second-hand smoke all day that could easily have his pick of the bar/restaurant litter if he/she wanted a healthier work environment?
alphaNoid said:
No sympathy, but I do respect a smokers right to kill themselves in the privacy of their own home.
I don't think it even needs to go that far. I think outside the building is fine. I think even providing more ideal accommodations outside the building is fine (i.e. cover from the rain and some heating). I just don't miss the days of walking into dense hole-in-the-wall establishments.

It even started to annoy me when I still smoked. There were always still these places that just didn't care about the ban and allowed smoking with cups of barely filled water in lieu of ash trays. I was so used to the ban that I started to feel uncomfortable with this. I just kind of had this reaction of "is it really that much of a hassle to step outside for a few minutes." I honestly started to prefer it. It was nice getting some fresh air and having conversations with other smokers outside the bar.

Every once in a while -- having not smoked in a year -- I'll wander into a place that is either exempt or ignoring the rules. It amazes me that this used to not bother me.
 

Hilbert

Deep into his 30th decade
I was a non smoker that used to be against the ban here in WA before it happened. I now think it is great. I am more comfortable going out. Before I go to a new place I don't have to wonder if they allow smoking, and my smoking friends and family don't seem terribly put out when they just step outside if they need their smoke.

I think it is great.
 

keyrat

Member
I absolutely hate smoking bans and the health craze that instilled it. I stopped smoking in 2004 but I always felt the bar was the place to go indulge in vice, and now the bars are all less seedy because of it.

Sometimes I want to start smoking again just to light up where you're not supposed to and watch how people freak out. I mean, give me a break, no one likes a bar that's all smoke but it was hardly like that 10 years ago. Most restaurants were just fine with smoking and non-smoking sections.

I have a friend who will put an unlit cigarette in his mouth just to get all the nazis up in arms. It's hilarious how people react.
 

Bisnic

Really Really Exciting Member!
I absolutely hate smoking bans and the health craze that instilled it. I stopped smoking in 2004 but I always felt the bar was the place to go indulge in vice, and now the bars are all less seedy because of it.

Sometimes I want to start smoking again just to light up where you're not supposed to and watch how people freak out. I mean, give me a break, no one likes a bar that's all smoke but it was hardly like that 10 years ago. Most restaurants were just fine with smoking and non-smoking sections.

I have a friend who will put an unlit cigarette in his mouth just to get all the nazis up in arms. It's hilarious how people react.

No they were not, even when you were in the non-smoking sections, it smelled like cigarettes. Smoke dont give a shit about sections.
 

Dice

Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
I approve. Fuck smoking. I don't want to breathe it and I don't want to smell it or have the smell get into my clothes and hair. If you can get some sort of enclosed smoking system, go ahead and enjoy fucking yourself up.
 

Get'sMad

Member
I actually quit smoking last month, but when I did I didn't mind them at all. I enjoyed stepping outside to smoke since I'd be more likely to strike it up with a stranger and also reek (slightly) less of cigs by the end of the night.
 
No they were not, even when you were in the non-smoking sections, it smelled like cigarettes. Smoke dont give a shit about sections.
Yeah, most places weren't adequately set up to really accommodate such a practice. I mean, it was probably never going to be 100% perfect anyway, but very few places had a setup resembling two distinct, non-connected rooms. It was usually one wide-open space wherein half (sometimes even more) was arbitrarily designated the smoking area and the other not. If you requested first available for your smoking preference, your only cue for what section you were in was "is there an ash try on the table?" If yes, you were in the smoking section. If no, you probably weren't.
 

keyrat

Member
We went 500 years smoking and now it's the most radical thing to not think it's a big deal. It's just not a big deal.
 
Most restaurants were just fine with smoking and non-smoking sections.

Bullshit. If you were anywhere near the smoking section, you were in for a night of smelling like ass, coughing, and feeling miserable.

I have a friend who will put an unlit cigarette in his mouth just to get all the nazis up in arms. It's hilarious how people react.

And because of this, I am doubly happy you can't smoke in bars.
 
I'm a smoker (aka filthy cunt) in the UK. I'm totally fine with the ban and in a lot of ways prefer it. Helps me to smoke less and going outside really isn't a big deal.
 

Geek

Ninny Prancer
As someone who frequents bars and clubs, the more public smoking bans the better.

People should be able to work in a safe, non-toxic environment. Even bartenders.
 

dudeworld

Member
I absolutely hate smoking bans and the health craze that instilled it. I stopped smoking in 2004 but I always felt the bar was the place to go indulge in vice, and now the bars are all less seedy because of it.

I always feel the bar is a place to go with friends to relax, socialize and have a few beers. It's now a million times better because there's no smoking.
 

Kai Dracon

Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
The smoking vs drinking comparison is interesting in ways besides the fact that there's more legal consequences for alcohol abuse than for smoking.

Drinking alcohol can be done in a wide variety of ways. And the act of drinking alcohol doesn't in any way disturb people around one, unless you get rowdy. And it's already standard practice to evict people from most places if they get rowdy, so problem solved there.

Unfortunately for people who smoke, you can't really avoid irritating the ambient environment with smoking. Kinda goes hand in hand.

Personally, I'm conditionally for city wide smoking bans. Its no different from "decency" regulations that ask everyone in public to have at least some form of clothing on so they're not nude. Just as you force people to see yer nuts if you walk around nude, if you smoke you force people to be irritated by the smoke.

Carrying the analogy, laws against public nudity do not insinuate that having genitals is bad. Likewise, laws against smoking anywhere you please do not, by themselves, insinuate smoking is "bad". Just inappropriate where it would bother others.

On the side, I do find it interesting that despite the fact there are so many people who smoke, such bans still end up being widely supported and appreciated. It makes me curious about how the general opinion on smoking is changing.
 
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