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[kitch9]

You're wrong. That really is all there is to it.

Go and play a Cave shmup and come back to me. If you still think they're totally shit, I have to question your manual dexterity and your ability to adapt to new control schemes.

Could I play Wipeout on a touchscreen Dave? I'm not saying every touch screen control screen is bad, I'm saying they are generally bad. The games that have decent touchscreen controls are usually too simplistic to be used in this argument.

 

[guek]

On the basis that the Vita is the perfect mix of actually recent technology + the use of buttons I could see why people would want the Vita to do well. I don't care "who wins" (because its totally juvenile), but I would like the Vita to do well enough to garner significant third party support. I don't see what's wrong with that at all.

I think there's a fundamental difference between wanting a product to do well and believing it should inherently be successful (a sentiment I see from time to time). The claims that $250 is a "good deal for what you get" are so silly. What you get? You mean the hardware? It implies that people will look at what's under the hood and come to the conclusion that it's something they should buy.

But that's just not how the majority of the market works. Everything comes down to perceived value in relation to software, not hardware. People don't pay $500 and $200+monthly fees in order to play $0.99 games on their ipads and iphones. Trying to tie those two products to the vita is absolutely ludicrous. The value of those apple products is derived from the sum of its utility. Despite the multitude of multimedia functions, vita will ultimately be evaluated on its core video game software. Does it have software that a large portion of the market desires? It doesn't matter what you or I or any of us on gaf feels about the software lineup. It doesn't matter if everyone on gaf collectively feels it has the absolute best games ever created on any platform. Believing it has desirable games doesn't suddenly mean the rest of the market is going to agree, and ultimately it's going to be the desirability of those games that will determine the price value of the platform. Being a "good deal" to any of us here isn't going to make it a good deal for the rest of the gamers out there.

That's the biggest flaw in the asinine marketing campaign Sony has going right now. What is the point of Sony advertising to their base? Vita is being advertised to people who are already interested in the vita.

 

[Byakuya769]

I thought it was clear I was saying the only way a price gets to $79-$99 is if it's such a failure that retailers won't carry it, like the Touchpad (or Dreamcast, when Sega couldn't go on.) I said it's not possible for that to happen to a major videogame console nowadays, so I don't think it's possible to happen to Vita unless it's a complete disaster along those lines.

But I was replying ot it costing $160 to make, and whatever it costs to make doesn't matter, what it's price is is going to be decided by the market, whether it costs $60 to make or $160 to make. If no one buys it at $250, $200, or lower what the cost of the system is, is not going to matter a bit.

Oh ok. Well in fairness to the original comment we're both responding to, I think that's kind of overly contrarian. I don't think the original post meant to say $160 set a hard barrier, rather that the analyst stating a price of $79-$99 is bad business because sony cannot afford to take such large losses on each and every handheld sold.

 

[fluffydelusions]

Could I play Wipeout on a touchscreen Dave?

This. Or trying playing FIFA on iPhone/iPad and then try the Vita version and see which is superior. Vita version is near identical to the PS3

 

[The_Darkest_Red]

Could I play Wipeout on a touchscreen Dave?

His point is that touch screen controls are great (or even better than the traditional alternative) for certain genres/games. It's silly to act like they are terrible across the board.

 

[commish]

This. Or trying playing FIFA on iPhone/iPad and then try the Vita version and see which is superior. Vita version is near identical to the PS3

I think we can all agree that some genres play better with touch controls than others.

 

[fluffydelusions]

I think we can all agree that some genres play better with touch controls than others.

Yes totally agree and luckily Vita has both.

 

[mclem]

Sorry, I'm on my phone which makes multiquoting a nightmare.

I can't help but feel that there's a little bit of irony in this statement!

 

[TheNatural]

Oh ok. Well in fairness to the original comment we're both responding to, I think that's kind of overly contrarian. I don't think the original post meant to say $160 set a hard barrier, rather that the analyst stating a price of $79-$99 is bad business because sony cannot afford to take such large losses on each and every handheld sold.

It may be bad business, but it's also bad business to not sell anything at all. And retailers get pissed if you give them a bum product that isn't selling. We'll see how long they can last at the current price point, but like anything else, if no money is coming in they'll have to change it regardless of what losses they would take.

 

[SmokyDave]

Yeah I was basically just curious about your opinion on the budget question. Is there any reason why you feel that way other than intuition?

Do you think a completely new game developed at a reasonable budget could be successful on iOS at $20 or $30? Beyond that, do you think it could become common enough to say that the market generally supports it?

I don't have much but intuition to go on to be honest. I'd point to Square, who came in with a high priced title, very rarely discounted it and yet saw enough success to create a sequel ad then port over a load of other stuff, all way above the average price for iOS. Cave too have provided game after game and although they're introduced at a discount, they rarely get discounted outside of those first two weeks.

Despite what people think, many of the top grossing apps are highly priced. The idea that only 69p games sell is as accurate as suggesting that only £20 console games sell.

I remember the leap from 8-bit computers (£5-£15 per game) to the consoles (£40 games, even for the Master System). At the time we wanted none of it, just as we grumbled when prices went up this gen (and again lately for handhelds). Thing is, people just deal with it.

I don't think iOS is ready for £40 games yet but I think it's time we saw more £10-£20 games.

Pretty much every big publisher that tests the app store comes back for more.

I can't help but feel that there's a little bit of irony in this statement!

Well, I'd be browsing on my 3DS but it's at home with a flat battery. Too inconvenient to carry around

 

[Buzzati]

Gartner's Gartenberg said Sony might want to consider a price cut. Vitas would be flying off the shelves at $79 or $99 each, he added.

In other news, the unfortunately named Gartner Gartenberg was then seen at a BMW auto show commenting, "The BMW M3 is a good car, but man would they sell hotcakes if these goddamn things were like the price of 5 hot dogs. Pay me bitch!"

 

[sloppyjoe_gamer]

Just as much (nah... more even) as some people want it to die because its from Sony. Bizarre, indeed.

Fixed.

 

[Fallout-NL]

His point is that touch screen controls are great (or even better than the traditional alternative) for certain genres/games. It's silly to act like they are terrible across the board.

Touch screen controls work quite well on many genres and not that well on some others. That's a fact.

Ok, they're great for puzzle and adventure games. Big fucking whoop. But it'll be a cold day in hell before someone's breaking Forza Motorsport laptimes on an iPad.

 

[commish]

Ok, they're great for puzzle and adventure games. Big fucking whoop. But it'll be a cold day in hell before someone's breaking Forza Motorsport laptimes on an iPad.

Right, but I think the core argument here is, who actually wants to break Forza laptimes on their portable when they could break them on their home console?

 

[SmokyDave]

Ok, they're great for puzzle and adventure games. Big fucking whoop. But it'll be a cold day in hell before someone's breaking Forza Motorsport laptimes on an iPad.

So, just like a Vita then?

Unless they announced G27/Fanatec support while I wasn't looking?

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

Has the handheld market really been dying? Yearly sales of the DS and DSL only went up until last year, same for PSP. 3DS was trending below until Nintendo switched focus and dropped price, now its doing better than the DS was in the past year. And take into account the DS as well as the PSP were doing as good as they were, perhaps slightly down, post 3DS launch (Before pricedrop)

So what exactly has the author been basing this off of?

 

[AgentP]

Right, but I think the core argument here is, who actually wants to break Forza laptimes on their portable when they could break them on their home console?

People who are not with their console? Look up portable in the dictionary, you might be surprised at what it means.

 

[Beer Monkey]

why does the author mention the Lynx, of all things, in the first sentence

I'm guessing it has something to do with how the Lynx, like the Vita, was by far the most powerful handheld ever at the time of release?

A lousy comparison though, because Sony has 10x better software support at launch than the Lynx ever had at any moment in its life.

 

[Fallout-NL]

Right, but I think the core argument here is, who actually wants to break Forza laptimes on their portable when they could break them on their home console?

Right, I don't (to me the whole concept of portable gaming seems pretty odd if you're older than a certain age). But that's still not the core argument (which is money). I have a personal preference for buttons, since they're superior for the types of games I prefer. But most consumers probably don't discriminate like that, a game is a game, and app store games are infinitely cheaper than the competition. That's probably the core argument.

/edit: Eh, actually that's not the core argument in this particular discussion. Because like you said, I don't want to play Forza on my once every two weeks - 30 minute - train ride. I'll wait till I'm home and that probably goes for more gamers than just me. So we're in agreement on that matter, I think.

So, just like a Vita then?

Unless they announced G27/Fanatec support while I wasn't looking?

I meant mechanical vs touch buttons. And yeah, that includes everything from mouse/kb to controllers to racing wheels (I guess).

 

[DECK'ARD]

Yeah I was basically just curious about your opinion on the budget question. Is there any reason why you feel that way other than intuition?

Do you think a completely new game developed at a reasonable budget could be successful on iOS at $20 or $30? Beyond that, do you think it could become common enough to say that the market generally supports it?

This is like saying if you are used to buying all your cans of drink at $1 would a new drink at $20 do well. It would sell to some people, who would say it's the best drink they've ever had. But the majority would think that's a rip-off no matter how good it was.

You're never going to see enough of a sea-change to stop that, especially on an open to develop for platform like iOS. You wil see some shifts though as time goes on.

And as I said before the industry is completely polarised where production values are related to not only perceived quality but also worth. Investing that much to make a game seen as marketable means you will put it on the platform where you can sell it at a price to recoup the ever increasing costs. Which brings us back to Vita's problem as well, console quality titles will go to the consoles.

3DS success in the long-term regarding support will be just as much about being a comfortable place to develop games for as anything.

 

[TheNatural]

People who are not with their console? Look up portable in the dictionary, you might be surprised at what it means.

These are the same people that consider it a bigger deal to have a smartphone than this crap though. They won't buy a Vita, 3DS, or anything else.

You have two markets here. You have Nintendo's blue ocean "everyone" + kids + fans they've gained in 23 years of handheld dominance. And then you have the hardcore 20 somethings, the 360+PS3 audience. Sony is going after the latter. Except the latter who play games on 360 and PS3, almost most certainly have a smartphone that they care about more than any gaming system and aren't gonig to waste money on an expensive one, at that.

Just because someone plays a game on a console, especially this audience, doesn't mean they HAVE to play it wherever they go.

 

[commish]

People who are not with their console? Look up portable in the dictionary, you might be surprised at what it means.

Right... but the majority of hours spent on these portable systems are spent while playing at home. Just read through this thread - plenty of folks don't really want the Forza full experience on their portable device, and game sales back this idea.

 

[NBooger]

I don't know what's more humbling for Sony fans: the fact that their latest high-priced toy is subjected to these scathing articles, or the fact that referencing the success of the Vita's main competitor is the only means by which to invalidate said articles.

 

[DenogginizerOS]

I own more games for my Vita than I have for my iPhone. Without an analog stick(s), I never see myself investing in iPhone and iPad games. This system resonates with me as a gamer and I haven't been this excited for a launch in quite some time.

For these and other reasons, this article comes off as nothing more than a doomsday opinion of someone who I consider to be a far different gamer than me. I simply cannot see how a PS3 owner, let alone other console owners, will ignore this system.

 

[Beer Monkey]

for these and other reasons, this article comes off as nothing more than a doomsday opinion of someone who I consider to be a far different gamer than me. I simply cannot see how a PS3 owner, let alone other console owners, will ignore this system.

I'm a console owner (PS3, 360, Wii) who bought a PSP at launch and who is, at least for now, ignoring the system.

After owning the PSP for a few years I realized that I didn't give a crap for the console-esque titles like Daxter, Motorstorm, Resistance, Metal Gear, God of War, et al. And honestly, I felt like that was the only good reason for owning the system. Other handheld platforms have tons of little puzzle games and pick-up-and-play games, it is the 'console' stuff that made the PSP feel unique.

I'd rather be playing that 'console' stuff on my 1080p Pioneer plasma with my 5.1 surround system. Hence my lack of interest in Vita.

Am I typical? Or maybe you are? Beats me.

Only time will tell.

 

[Byakuya769]

I own more games for my Vita than I have for my iPhone. Without an analog stick(s), I never see myself investing in iPhone and iPad games. This system resonates with me as a gamer and I haven't been this excited for a launch in quite some time.

For these and other reasons, this article comes off as nothing more than a doomsday opinion of someone who I consider to be a far different gamer than me. I simply cannot see how a PS3 owner, let alone other console owners, will ignore this system.

And that will likely never change. But the market is made large by casuals who get these game consoles not out of a deep rooted love for gaming, but just a casual enjoyment, or in the case of the DS, critical mass and mindshare. I knew many adults 35+ that had ds's for games like nintendogs and the like, those games are easily done on phones now, and serve the same short-term distraction that those sorts of consumers wanted.

Sony, AND Nintendo, are after either a dwindling consumer base, or (perhaps more likely, and clearly demonstrated in Japan), a user base that is merely cannibalized from home consoles.

 

[mckmas8808]

Expert analysis

Vitas selling for $79?!! WHAT? LOL!

 

[DenogginizerOS]

The Vita to me is far different than all previous portable systems in one area - connectedness to a console. The potentially symbiotic gaming experience that one will get with MLB The Show provides freedom to those who want to stay connected to what they have invested in on their 50inch plasma/console setups. Simply writing the Vita off based on PSP experiences is not a complete or fair analysis.

 

[Oppo]

Multi-touch controls are superior for:

- RTS and tower defense
- menu-driven interfaces
- game board analogs (pieces)
- map/image browsing

With the increased price flexibility in software I don't see why Vita can't compete. Or at least do well enough to be viable. It's not all binary.

 

[Rolf NB]

Vitas selling for $79?!! WHAT? LOL!

In a world where the DSlite still goes for 110$. Smh.

 

[Liquidsnake]

I am in my 30's. I will not bash hand held gaming, but one thing I learned from purchasing the 3DS is that I am just more of a console gamer now. I don't have a thirst to sit in my living room and play on a small screen when I have a 360 and a PS3 that I can play on a 52 inch screen right in front of me.

I understand its appeal, its just not for me anymore.

at $150 though, that would be a whole new story.

 

[Fallout-NL]

For these and other reasons, this article comes off as nothing more than a doomsday opinion of someone who I consider to be a far different gamer than me. I simply cannot see how a PS3 owner, let alone other console owners, will ignore this system.

Odds are that the Vita will provide experiences similar to those found in console games.

Except they're going to be developed by the b-teams, on a smaller budget. It looks like a fantastic piece of tech, but logic suggests that it will be entirely redundant. The odd game out like Gravity Rush/Daze might be worth a try, but games like that are bound to be the outliers.

 

[Tarin02543]

I am in my 30's. I will not bash hand held gaming, but one thing I learned from purchasing the 3DS is that I am just more of a console gamer now. I don't have a thirst to sit in my living room and play on a small screen when I have a 360 and a PS3 that I can play on a 52 inch screen right in front of me.

I understand its appeal, its just not for me anymore.

at $150 though, that would be a whole new story.

I'm nearing 30 and I feel the exact opposite. I don't have the time to invest in couchgaming anymore and rather have 10min handheld gaming sessions every odd day or so.

 

[mckmas8808]

Odds are that the Vita will provide experiences similar to those found in console games.

Except they're going to be developed by the b-teams, on a smaller budget. It looks like a fantastic piece of tech, but logic suggests that it will be entirely redundant. The odd game out like Gravity Rush/Daze might be worth a try, but games like that are bound to be the outliers.

There's plenty of games that the Vita has/will have that aren't console ports or play like console games.

You're thinking of the PSP.

 

[Anticitizen One]

I bet Vita will be the last major gaming handheld launch. The market has evolved.

 

[Amir0x]

man there are a billion Vita units in every store I've been to. Vita is fucked imo. I was right about PS3 on this score way back when, I'm sure I'm right on this one too. Market has just moved on, with $169.99 handhelds or lower only viable option for dedicated handheld machines

Best handheld ever automatically (deniers labeled automatic fanboys), but as usual the mass market is full of pieces of shit and they don't know a good handheld if it unzipped their pants, turned into Monica Bellucci and blew them like a supersonic vacuum cleaner.

 

[AgentP]

I bet Vita will be the last major gaming handheld launch. The market has devolved.

Fixed. If true I feel bad for future gamers. A world of motion crap and lame tablet games.

 

[MarshMellow96]

I feel sad all of a sudden. I'm going back to the other thread.

 

[Cipherr]

but as usual the mass market is full of pieces of shit and they don't know a good handheld if it unzipped their pants, turned into Monica Bellucci and blew them like a supersonic vacuum cleaner.

I would have gotten a second job and paid $599 for that.

 

[Emwitus]

I don't know what's more humbling for Sony fans: the fact that their latest high-priced toy is subjected to these scathing articles, or the fact that referencing the success of the Vita's main competitor is the only means by which to invalidate said articles.

Oi, what you doing son?

 

[Tobor]

I bought a Vita, and I really like it, but I can't shake the feeling that I just bought into another Dreamcast scenario. Hopefully I get some awesome games before it goes kablooey.

 

[Marco1]

man there are a billion Vita units in every store I've been to. Vita is fucked imo. I was right about PS3 on this score way back when, I'm sure I'm right on this one too. Market has just moved on, with $169.99 handhelds or lower only viable option for dedicated handheld machines

Best handheld ever automatically (deniers labeled automatic fanboys), but as usual the mass market is full of pieces of shit and they don't know a good handheld if it unzipped their pants, turned into Monica Bellucci and blew them like a supersonic vacuum cleaner.

Well said! The store were I pre-ordered my vita and didn't pick it up just phoned me a few hours previous asking if I still wanted it. I said no but enquired if many were picked up, he said only 3 have been sold out of an inventory or 20 and this was for £250 3G versions.
As much as I want vita I find it hard to comprehend what Sony is doing and planning for the future. If vita is it then Sony really is doomed.

 

[ClovingWestbrook]

man there are a billion Vita units in every store I've been to. Vita is fucked imo. I was right about PS3 on this score way back when, I'm sure I'm right on this one too. Market has just moved on, with $169.99 handhelds or lower only viable option for dedicated handheld machines

Best handheld ever automatically (deniers labeled automatic fanboys), but as usual the mass market is full of pieces of shit and they don't know a good handheld if it unzipped their pants, turned into Monica Bellucci and blew them like a supersonic vacuum cleaner.

I have to agree Ami. Definitely the best handheld in terms of features and hardware ever. I don't have a lot of faith but I still hold out hope.

 

[Professor Fog]

Right... but the majority of hours spent on these portable systems are spent while playing at home. Just read through this thread - plenty of folks don't really want the Forza full experience on their portable device, and game sales back this idea.

This is my position. I'm not interested in Vita at all for console ports or dumbed down console experiences. I'll jump in once I see more compelling original IPs and hopefully a glut of new RPGs.

 

[Father_Brain]

Right... but the majority of hours spent on these portable systems are spent while playing at home. Just read through this thread - plenty of folks don't really want the Forza full experience on their portable device, and game sales back this idea.

Different genre, but look at RE:R's sales in the next NPD for what'll probably be another data point to back up that conclusion.

 

[StevieP]

man there are a billion Vita units in every store I've been to. Vita is fucked imo. I was right about PS3 on this score way back when, I'm sure I'm right on this one too. Market has just moved on, with $169.99 handhelds or lower only viable option for dedicated handheld machines

Best handheld ever automatically (deniers labeled automatic fanboys), but as usual the mass market is full of pieces of shit and they don't know a good handheld if it unzipped their pants, turned into Monica Bellucci and blew them like a supersonic vacuum cleaner.

You can have the best piece of hardware in the world, but without the best software in the world (or, to put it in less hyperbolic terms: the software that the mass market at large wants to buy) you're not going to sell it at any price. That goes for any company.

 

[Amir0x]

You can have the best piece of hardware in the world, but without the best software in the world (or, to put it in less hyperbolic terms: the software that the mass market at large wants to buy) you're not going to sell it at any price. That goes for any company.

Obviously true, but the software of Vita's launch is just a typical launch lineup. It's I guess ok by launch standards, but other systems still manage to get away with it and do well with infinitely worse lineups.

No matter how good your lineup is, people don't want to pay $250 for a gaming dedicated handheld. They just don't.

3DS dropped to $169.99 and Nintendo had to bend Mario over the bedpost and whore him out like the dime corner prostitute he is to get the engines churning again. Shit, just wait until they get Pokemon Rehash Polka Dot edition. Sony just can't compete, and in Japan they also made the additional blunder of failing to nail down Monster Hunter. Franchise means shit in America, but at least Japan could have offset some losses if they made sure to secure it. Sony doesn't have Mario to whore and they definitely don't have a $169.99 handheld. The fact that Sony's handheld easily has the best integrated control set of any handheld ever made, the fact that Sony's handheld launch lineup literally molests its competitors at a similar point in time, the fact that it has the most flexible and dominate power set to create a far larger variety and quality of game, the fact that it has the first ever really competent online platform for a gaming dedicated handheld doesn't matter. It does everything right - except the price, because the market doesn't want to pay $249.99 for a gaming dedicated handheld.

Additionally because handheld markets have a larger portion directed to younger individuals, Sony's handheld is immediately as a disadvantage because as usual they're making a system for tech enthusiasts. Sure, it can make better kid games than 3DS could, but it's not the way it's set up and marketed. Sony continually miscalculates: you do have to make certain judgments and tailors your games a certain way to get your handheld going. You do have to stereotype your audience.

 

[Hcoregamer00]

I bet Vita will be the last major gaming handheld launch. The market has evolved.

Next portable consoles to be tablets that use Bluetooth controllers with 10" screens.

I am cool with that.

 

[commish]

Next portable consoles to be tablets that use Bluetooth controllers with 10" screens.

I am cool with that.

That'd be great.

 

[SHarris78]

I love all these doom and gloom topics

I have an IPhone, my mates got an Ipad, I've got a 3DS......so according to 'some people' i shouldn't be enjoying my Vita as i already have all the bases covered. How wrong can people be.