Count me in with the people who don't understand where the outrage is coming from... I've never really been one for 'soft language'. Someone asked a question, someone got an honest answer. What problem is there? Fuck, I wouldn't care if the head of Bioware said that. It's just like, their opinion, man. Would it have been better if the person asking the question wasn't japanese?
I guess everyone is too used to typical PR bullshit. Honesty doen't count for shit these days.
Count me in with the people who don't understand where the outrage is coming from... I've never really been one for 'soft language'. Someone asked a question, someone got an honest answer. What problem is there? Fuck, I wouldn't care if the head of Bioware said that. It's just like, their opinion, man. Would it have been better if the person asking the question wasn't japanese?
I guess everyone is too used to typical PR bullshit. Honesty doen't count for shit these days.
He responded to a foreigner's question by generalizing his entire country's output as sucking - at an international gaming convention, no less.
You don't see anything wrong with that?
Fez |OT| PCs don't do Saturday morningsspeedpop, you so crazy.
that's a good one, but you gotta include "Its a console game on a console. END OF STORY" somewhere. perhaps the PC port thread title!
I'm pretty sure that the guy was looking for a detailed response about what he thought about Japanese games and not something that you'd expect from Gamespot's System Wars forum. If he'd said something like what Blow mentioned in an interview that was posted earlier (despite how flawed his complaint is) then no one would've made a big deal out of it. A thread wouldn't exist for it and it would've just been something that sites mentioned in their recap of the panel.
He responded to a foreigner's question by generalizing his entire country's output as sucking - at an international gaming convention, no less.
You don't see anything wrong with that?
nope. that's honesty, brah!
he's just saying what we're all thinking. they SUCK and should SUCK OUR DICKS.
Like I said, I think he is entitled to his opinion. Generalizations are everywhere and people have to learn how to not take them at face value. Obviously he hasn't played every single Japanese game that has been put out recently, but out of the ones he has played he thinks they suck.
I never said that I agreed with him. I just dislike the fact that people shouldn't be allowed to say what they think when asked a question like that, regardless of where they are, who they are and who is asking.
i absolutely agree - and he is free to say what he wants, where he wants.
likewise, people are free to take umbrage with that when it's as rude and unprofessional as that was. i don't think anyone (certainly not me) is arguing he shouldn't be allowed, but if words are to have any weight, and discussions - much less those in as public a venue as GDC - are to have any continuity, there are logical consequences, too.
Ah, then I guess my misunderstanding comes from the fact that I have a different perception of what I consider to be 'rude' or 'unprofessional' I guess. And with that difference there really isn't much to discuss, as everyone has their own feelings towards those sorts of things.
Either way, I'm glad the Japanese dev doesn't seem to have taken things to heart. Hopefully he'll just have a stronger drive to create awesome games after this.
So. Do we boycott Fez or not? I've got plenty of other games to play. Mainly japanese games.
And no, 'different perception of what you consider to be rude or unprofessional' isn't a get out of jail free card. Theres clearly a very obvious public standard of behaviour beyond high school or fratboy age if you were raised with an ounce of decorum. "Sorry Officer, I had a different perception on where I could expose my penis and urinate everywhere. Choke it down."
Well, personally I don't find stating a dislike of modern Japanese games rude at all, regardless of whom it towards and with lack of justification. What I DO find rude is bashing a particular person or their games. Had he asked "What do you think of -insert one of his games here-?" and Phil had responded "Your game sucks!" with out anything else, I would have been outraged. A generalization like that, not so much.
Oh, and I also don't really care about his 'choke on it' comment either. If you're going to call someone an arrogant shmuck, you can get comments like that back. He doesn't have to be the better man for any reason.
But like I said, I guess I have a different sense of rude an unprofessional than most people here, so I really should just stop posting in this thread.
I never said that I agreed with him. I just dislike the fact that people shouldn't be allowed to say what they think when asked a question like that, regardless of where they are, who they are and who is asking.
I think they're the dumbest invention by man. They tell me what I am not allowed to do, eat, use, play and inconvenience me. My mom was against Nestlé back in the 80's and wouldn't let us eat anything by them. So we had to do it in secret. When the BP oil spill happened, people were boycotting the company not realizing that it was giving them less money to clean up the spill. People follow boycotts blindly like sheep. I prefer to do, eat, use and play whatever I want to do, eat, use and play without having to worry that I'm supposed to be boycotting it.
Fuck boycotts. Do what you want. You don't want to play the game, don't. But don't tell me to not play it too.
watI'm wondering if the disconnect between some people in this thread is related to personally identity with this story? As in, Japanese gamers are taking this a little more personally than the non Japanese?
So. Do we boycott Fez or not? I've got plenty of other games to play. Mainly japanese games.
No. 99% of the posters here are Western.I'm wondering if the disconnect between some people in this thread is related to personally identity with this story? As in, Japanese gamers are taking this a little more personally than the non Japanese?
I'm wondering if the disconnect between some people in this thread is related to personally identity with this story? As in, Japanese gamers are taking this a little more personally than the non Japanese?
hurry weeaboos japan needs you!
weeaboos care a lot more about japan than actual japanese people.
Gaftrual selection will take place eventually.our latest batch of juniors, everybody!
No. 99% of the posters here are Western.
Negative. Buying it day one.
our latest batch of juniors, everybody!
On the one hand, that was a mean thing to say, on the other hand, he's absolutely right.
Dude, implying that he should/will kill himself? You're as bad, if not worse than he is.
You don't need to be biased to see the comments were insensitive and unprofessional. Haven't you ever run across a sweeping generalization you didn't care for? Really, how can common decency be lost on so many?and that would stop Japanese westerners from feeling that way?
I know an awful lot of people here in the United States who have never stepped foot in Ireland, but they're very proud of their Irish heritage, and their immigrant family members who left there.
You're completely Misguided here.
Why would they need to do this? Some companies simply need adjust their management style somewhat. Ideally I'd like to see western developers be equal to eastern developers, with a diverse range of games. In some genre's both sides have different way of approaching things. In other genre's one side or the other is specialized in. There's nothing wrong with this. That's actually somewhat the case atm.Let's get to the real issue here. The question we should be asking is What could Japanese developers do to recapture the gaming industry they helped to revive with NES & Genesis?
I've not seen it mentioned in the summary, but Makoto Goto seems to part of Team Onigiri (he's the team admin). This is their Global Game Jam entry: http://globalgamejam.org/2012/cycl-run-powered-team-onigiri
According to his Linkedin profile, he's working as a programmer in the games industry for 22 years now, 15 years as lead programmer. Former engine and tools programmer at Square Enix (on FFX and CrystalTools) and SiliconStudio.
I will try to create a decent bulletpoint complete with links to relevant posts. Yes, I am bored. Throw it in the OP if you wish.
- Broken(?) by a website called develop and thrown on to GAF pastures by subversus, it details a GDC Q&A session following a screening of Indie Game The Movie involving game designer Phil Fish from Polytron who's unreleased game Fez constantly experiences mass anticipation and awards from the gaming community.
- Within the news story is of Phil Fish's apparent lack of respect toward a, then anonymous, question from a fellow Japanese developer. The Japanese man had praised the movie, stating that he was pleased to see many independent developers use Super Mario Bros. and Zelda as inspiration for what they are doing now. He then asked what he thought of modern Japanese games. Phil Fish's response was to ridicule the man in front of fellow developers by poorly articulating with "your games just suck" complete with a few cheers.
- GAF goes wild with comments ranging from the cold hard truth, the questionable, the consensus opinion, and the reality. What follows is typical GAF being GAF by discussing and dissecting like a bunch of Dodos trained as surgeons.
- This isn't the first time Fish has made a silly statement complete with his own weak argument. A precursor to his fate perhaps?
- Maybe Phil Fish needs to hire noire as a PR agent?
- Rollo Larson asks, Aeana answers. 7threst provides an alternative viewpoint.
- Interspersed between the discussions, Fish backs up his Q&A panel statement by throwing an additional 2 cents upon the Twitterverse with an apology followed by a vulgar reaffirmation.
- More discussion! kazuma_pt lives up to his namesake, gets the shits, and provides the goods in the only way some people may recognize. shadyspace throws a sobering reminder. quinntendopower doesn't understand. charlequin provides the finer points and what may lay in the future for Japanese developers. For the first few hundred posts within the thread, many are in agreement that Fish was being antagonistic without backing his statements up. Some even going so far as to state that they are no longer looking to purchase Fez.
- The cavalry arrives!! Here, here, here, and here.
- The Emperor provides feedback that the Japanese developer apparently left the room after he received his verbal lashings at GDC.
- More infighting and posts with no formulated arguments in GAF, while a nugget of truth arrives from the fingertips of Kaijima. Etc etc.
- Phil Fish is accosted in friendly manner on Twitter providing examples why modern Japanese games aren't pathetic. Fish remarks with rose-tinted glasses that Japanese games have been in decline since the 16-bit era.
- GAF rumbles some more and the brewing elephant in the room of Japanese vs Western arguments of recent seasons ignites. Blackface throws a blanket over the thread, ULTROS! and Rahxephon91 play games, while Glorious_Paradox expects Fez to be better than Nintendo's output for Fish's attitude to be accepted. Jonnyram drives it home, but forgets to praise the past 12-24 months of absolutely solid Japanese games - rare as they may be. Dave Long provides an interesting statement on PC games then and now.
- GAF no longer talks about Fish for several hundred posts outside of a remark here or there.
- Fish tweets again, this time about GAF talking about him. Problem is the thread stopped dissecting his statement hours ago.
- TheOddOne hands out a link to a 7min video with Jonathon Blow (Braid, The Witness developer) that discusses independent games and the state of Japanese games industry. SolidSnakex retorts with an article.
- Meanwhile, Agent Unknown lobs a grenade to Phil Fish on twitter. Is it live or dead?
- Fish replies to Agent Unknown complete with sexual innuendo. The grenade was a live pineapple and the concrete begins to set around Fish's feet. GAF, naturally, responds. Feep jumps in as a fellow indie developer who gave away thousands of copies of his game for free to GAF members and lays down the law.
- Fez wins Seumas McNally Grand Prize at IGF while not having seen the light of day. Fish tweets about it, then follows up a bit regarding penises and multiple awards.
- Members stop arguing about East vs West and go back to Fish. JuxJuxJux completes the GAF hate with this gem.
- Natty1 becomes a part of Detective GAF and finds previously unknown Japanese developer via Twitter with the name Makoto Goto.
- Say what?
- The bad publicity is starting to hit Fish. geebee wonders if Microsoft said something to him.
- Codeblue finds the real Makoto Goto?
- Fish finally apologizes to Goto personally via Twitter. I wonder if it had anything to do with Codeblue finding the real Goto.
- keit4 (with interesting avatar) wants to throw more fuel on the fire that is now in its ember state.
- Goto replies to apology in an incredibly humble way.
- randomkid summarizes details about Goto's first trip to GDC and an interview conducted by Japanese media. Empathy rears its beautiful head.
- We need Japanese indie games translated, pronto.
- LQX sums the end of this bulletpoint all up with an outlook to the Fez official thread. I prefer "Fez |OT| Call me Brown.. Chris Brown"
I would like to thank GAF for being GAF and Koichi Sugiyama for composing Dragon Quest music.
That was what really caught my eye. The guy has been in the business for a very long time. I don't know why he even asked someone that is very inexperienced about the perceived gap between Japanese and Western game development companies.
Why would they need to do this? Some companies simply need adjust their management style somewhat. Ideally I'd like to see western developers be equal to eastern developers, with a diverse range of games. In some genre's both sides have different way of approaching things. In other genre's one side or the other is specialized in. There's nothing wrong with this. That's actually somewhat the case atm.
Why? Because I would like to see some real innovation in this industry and Japanese developers are the main source for it at the moment. I see that they're trying to re-capture the global market by IMITATING western games (Binary Domain & Vanquish just to name a couple), but the pressure is on them to separate their games from the western games while making it new and fresh enough to distract the Gamers away from casual pile of trash games like Modern Warfare and Battlefield.
Also, I have high hopes for them that they will come back with a bang somehow.
I'm surprised noone tried to drag others into this mess, like asking Kamiya for his opinion on the matter or something since he's active on Twitter.
神谷英樹 Hideki Kamiya ‏ @PG_kamiya
Okay. RT @GamerByTrade69420 What do you think about Phil Fish's comment about Japanese games?
our latest batch of juniors, everybody!
Why? Because I would like to see some real innovation in this industry and Japanese developers are the main source for it at the moment. I see that they're trying to re-capture the global market by IMITATING western games (Binary Domain & Vanquish just to name a couple), but the pressure is on them to separate their games from the western games while making it new and fresh enough to distract the Gamers away from casual pile of trash games like Modern Warfare and Battlefield.
Also, I have high hopes for them that they will come back with a bang somehow.
Keep going, Junior.
our latest batch of juniors, everybody!
You don't need to be biased to see the comments were insensitive and unprofessional. Haven't you ever run across a sweeping generalization you didn't care for? Really, how can common decency be lost on so many?
People in the west like shooting their friends over a network in a first person perspective. That is not going to change anytime soon. If Japan wants to court them, they'll have to offer not only a similar experience, but a more refined one. And IW have got many years of refining their formula down to a t.
I can't see it happening. I don't like that situation, but that's how it is.
Have you played Binary Domain or Vanquish at all? They imitate Western games at the most basic and rudimentary levels while everything else has the Japanese flair everyone thinks is nonexistent this generation. The so-called "Japanese games" are still being developed at the same rate they were in previous generations, it's just that the "Western imitations" get greater focus from publishers and the press. The innovation is still there.
You do of course realise Gears is MASSIVELY influenced by Resident Evil 4? Vanquish is from Mikami too and takes the formula further than any western has in recent years.For instance, when Gears of War first came out there were no other games like it that played like it that was popular. Great controls. Great pop-up and shoot-em-ups.
TaroYamada said:As for Fez, I've lost all interest in it. I also don't have a 360 though, so at this point for him to lose money from me over this he would need to come with a PC port.
Having only played the binary domain demo, sure, I can give you that. But vanquish? I'm having trouble thinking of what game they're imitating.There's always a room for improvement. People said the same things about Halo when it led console online gaming. Look where it's at now.
No innovation in gameplay. Just imitation. I'm talking about bigger differences to distinguish your game from the others.
For instance, when Gears of War first came out there were no other games like it that played like it that was popular.