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[Goldmund]

Some people don't like assholes. Not everybody on the Internet is an asshole and thinks that being an asshole has to do with honesty. Assholes just project their character onto others.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Count me in with the people who don't understand where the outrage is coming from... I've never really been one for 'soft language'. Someone asked a question, someone got an honest answer. What problem is there? Fuck, I wouldn't care if the head of Bioware said that. It's just like, their opinion, man. Would it have been better if the person asking the question wasn't japanese?

I guess everyone is too used to typical PR bullshit. Honesty doen't count for shit these days.

I'm pretty sure that the guy was looking for a detailed response about what he thought about Japanese games and not something that you'd expect from Gamespot's System Wars forum. If he'd said something like what Blow mentioned in an interview that was posted earlier (despite how flawed his complaint is) then no one would've made a big deal out of it. A thread wouldn't exist for it and it would've just been something that sites mentioned in their recap of the panel.

 

[anaron]

Count me in with the people who don't understand where the outrage is coming from... I've never really been one for 'soft language'. Someone asked a question, someone got an honest answer. What problem is there? Fuck, I wouldn't care if the head of Bioware said that. It's just like, their opinion, man. Would it have been better if the person asking the question wasn't japanese?

I guess everyone is too used to typical PR bullshit. Honesty doen't count for shit these days.

He responded to a foreigner's question by generalizing his entire country's output as sucking - at an international gaming convention, no less.

You don't see anything wrong with that?

 

[IrishNinja]

He responded to a foreigner's question by generalizing his entire country's output as sucking - at an international gaming convention, no less.

You don't see anything wrong with that?

nope. that's honesty, brah!
he's just saying what we're all thinking. they SUCK and should SUCK OUR DICKS.

 

[Metal-Geo]

speedpop, you so crazy.



that's a good one, but you gotta include "It’s a console game on a console. END OF STORY" somewhere. perhaps the PC port thread title!

Fez |OT| PCs don't do Saturday mornings

<_<

 

[Kyuur]

I'm pretty sure that the guy was looking for a detailed response about what he thought about Japanese games and not something that you'd expect from Gamespot's System Wars forum. If he'd said something like what Blow mentioned in an interview that was posted earlier (despite how flawed his complaint is) then no one would've made a big deal out of it. A thread wouldn't exist for it and it would've just been something that sites mentioned in their recap of the panel.

Alright, that makes a lot of sense. It would have been better had he gave a thought out response. I'm not going to argue with that. However, I don't feel his comment is worthy of such attack regardless. The Japanese dev (forgive me for not knowing his name) could have easily asked for clarification on the matter if he deemed it important.

He responded to a foreigner's question by generalizing his entire country's output as sucking - at an international gaming convention, no less.

You don't see anything wrong with that?

Like I said, I think he is entitled to his opinion. Generalizations are everywhere and people have to learn how to not take them at face value. Obviously he hasn't played every single Japanese game that has been put out recently, but out of the ones he has played he thinks they suck.

nope. that's honesty, brah!
he's just saying what we're all thinking. they SUCK and should SUCK OUR DICKS.

I never said that I agreed with him. I just dislike the fact that people shouldn't be allowed to say what they think when asked a question like that, regardless of where they are, who they are and who is asking.

 

[subversus]

lol, it's 49 pages. GAF sure loves japanese games. OP is updated.

 

[anaron]

Like I said, I think he is entitled to his opinion. Generalizations are everywhere and people have to learn how to not take them at face value. Obviously he hasn't played every single Japanese game that has been put out recently, but out of the ones he has played he thinks they suck.

Sorry, I don't usually find generalizations very acceptable; they're sweeping, self-serving conclusions based on an example and applied to a majority.

It's bullshit.

Barring his entitlement to such a ridiculous opinion, Fish chose an incredibly inappropriate setting to make it known in and because of that, is an ignorant shit and deserving of this backlash.

 

[IrishNinja]

I never said that I agreed with him. I just dislike the fact that people shouldn't be allowed to say what they think when asked a question like that, regardless of where they are, who they are and who is asking.

i absolutely agree - and he is free to say what he wants, where he wants.
likewise, people are free to take umbrage with that when it's as rude and unprofessional as that was. i don't think anyone (certainly not me) is arguing he shouldn't be allowed, but if words are to have any weight, and discussions - much less those in as public a venue as GDC - are to have any continuity, there are logical consequences, too.

 

[Kyuur]

i absolutely agree - and he is free to say what he wants, where he wants.
likewise, people are free to take umbrage with that when it's as rude and unprofessional as that was. i don't think anyone (certainly not me) is arguing he shouldn't be allowed, but if words are to have any weight, and discussions - much less those in as public a venue as GDC - are to have any continuity, there are logical consequences, too.

Ah, then I guess my misunderstanding comes from the fact that I have a different perception of what I consider to be 'rude' or 'unprofessional' I guess. And with that difference there really isn't much to discuss, as everyone has their own feelings towards those sorts of things.

Either way, I'm glad the Japanese dev doesn't seem to have taken things to heart. Hopefully he'll just have a stronger drive to create awesome games after this.

 

[Pie and Beans]

Ah, then I guess my misunderstanding comes from the fact that I have a different perception of what I consider to be 'rude' or 'unprofessional' I guess. And with that difference there really isn't much to discuss, as everyone has their own feelings towards those sorts of things.

Either way, I'm glad the Japanese dev doesn't seem to have taken things to heart. Hopefully he'll just have a stronger drive to create awesome games after this.

He left the room after getting chewed out. He clearly took it to heart at the time. What he's doing now is humbly getting on and not bearing a grudge that some canadian jackass punched the wind out of his GDC sails.

And no, 'different perception of what you consider to be rude or unprofessional' isn't a get out of jail free card. Theres clearly a very obvious public standard of behaviour beyond high school or fratboy age if you were raised with an ounce of decorum. "Sorry Officer, I had a different perception on where I could expose my penis and urinate everywhere. Choke it down."

 

[Kade]

So. Do we boycott Fez or not? I've got plenty of other games to play. Mainly japanese games.

Why do you need to know of others or going to boycott it or not? If you personally feel what Fish did was wrong, then don't buy it. You don't need to wait for some mass boycott e-movement.

 

[Kyuur]

And no, 'different perception of what you consider to be rude or unprofessional' isn't a get out of jail free card. Theres clearly a very obvious public standard of behaviour beyond high school or fratboy age if you were raised with an ounce of decorum. "Sorry Officer, I had a different perception on where I could expose my penis and urinate everywhere. Choke it down."

Well, personally I don't find stating a dislike of modern Japanese games rude at all, regardless of whom it towards and with lack of justification. What I DO find rude is bashing a particular person or their games. Had he asked "What do you think of -insert one of his games here-?" and Phil had responded "Your game sucks!" with out anything else, I would have been outraged. A generalization like that, not so much.

Oh, and I also don't really care about his 'choke on it' comment either. If you're going to call someone an arrogant shmuck, you can get comments like that back. He doesn't have to be the better man for any reason.

But like I said, I guess I have a different sense of rude an unprofessional than most people here, so I really should just stop posting in this thread.

 

[Goldmund]

Well, personally I don't find stating a dislike of modern Japanese games rude at all, regardless of whom it towards and with lack of justification. What I DO find rude is bashing a particular person or their games. Had he asked "What do you think of -insert one of his games here-?" and Phil had responded "Your game sucks!" with out anything else, I would have been outraged. A generalization like that, not so much.

Oh, and I also don't really care about his 'choke on it' comment either. If you're going to call someone an arrogant shmuck, you can get comments like that back. He doesn't have to be the better man for any reason.

But like I said, I guess I have a different sense of rude an unprofessional than most people here, so I really should just stop posting in this thread.

 

[BruiserBear]

I'm wondering if the disconnect between some people in this thread is related to personally identity with this story? As in, Japanese gamers are taking this a little more personally than the non Japanese?

 

[jman2050]

I never said that I agreed with him. I just dislike the fact that people shouldn't be allowed to say what they think when asked a question like that, regardless of where they are, who they are and who is asking.

The dude is allowed to say whatever he wants. The people listening are also allowed to respond however they like, and in this case they responded in kind.

You reap what you sow. Even free speech has consequences.

 

[reggieandTFE]

I think they're the dumbest invention by man. They tell me what I am not allowed to do, eat, use, play and inconvenience me. My mom was against Nestlé back in the 80's and wouldn't let us eat anything by them. So we had to do it in secret. When the BP oil spill happened, people were boycotting the company not realizing that it was giving them less money to clean up the spill. People follow boycotts blindly like sheep. I prefer to do, eat, use and play whatever I want to do, eat, use and play without having to worry that I'm supposed to be boycotting it.

Fuck boycotts. Do what you want. You don't want to play the game, don't. But don't tell me to not play it too.

This is one of the dumbest things I've read on this board and that's saying a lot. Comparing a snippy, culturally insensitive remark from a no name video game developer to a massive oil spill that killed people an destroyed significant swaths of coastland is so idiotic, sheltered and just plain dumb that I kinda feel sorry for you.

 

[DukeTogo1300]

I'm wondering if the disconnect between some people in this thread is related to personally identity with this story? As in, Japanese gamers are taking this a little more personally than the non Japanese?

wat

 

[NIGHT-]

So. Do we boycott Fez or not? I've got plenty of other games to play. Mainly japanese games.

Negative. Buying it day one.

 

[Zeouterlimits]

Big thank you & kudos to speedpop for the summary.

I'm wondering if the disconnect between some people in this thread is related to personally identity with this story? As in, Japanese gamers are taking this a little more personally than the non Japanese?

No. 99% of the posters here are Western.

 

[FStop7]

Good to see that Phil apologized to the guy he hammered on at the conference.

Now I feel like we're more free to discuss the issue of whether or not Japanese games of late are "sucking."

To that end he has a point but there are quite a few exceptions that have already been named.

 

[Fire Walk With Me]

I'm wondering if the disconnect between some people in this thread is related to personally identity with this story? As in, Japanese gamers are taking this a little more personally than the non Japanese?

weeaboos care a lot more about japan than actual japanese people.

 

[IrishNinja]

our latest batch of juniors, everybody!

 

[FStop7]

hurry weeaboos japan needs you!

weeaboos care a lot more about japan than actual japanese people.

Keep going, Junior.

 

[wsippel]

I've not seen it mentioned in the summary, but Makoto Goto seems to part of Team Onigiri (he's the team admin). This is their Global Game Jam entry: http://globalgamejam.org/2012/cycl-run-powered-team-onigiri

According to his Linkedin profile, he's working as a programmer in the games industry for 22 years now, 15 years as lead programmer. Former engine and tools programmer at Square Enix (on FFX and CrystalTools) and SiliconStudio.

 

[Alucrid]

our latest batch of juniors, everybody!

Gaftrual selection will take place eventually.

 

[BruiserBear]

No. 99% of the posters here are Western.

and that would stop Japanese westerners from feeling that way?

I know an awful lot of people here in the United States who have never stepped foot in Ireland, but they're very proud of their Irish heritage, and their immigrant family members who left there.

 

[Solid07]

I'm glad Fez brought up this issue in the end even though it made me despise him even more.

Japanese games used to rule the world.

I remember when Chrono Trigger came out, my friend and I stayed up all night playing.
I remember when Final Fantasy 7 first came out, everyone at my school couldn't stop talking about it.
I remember when Japanese games were surprisingly more fun to play (NES/Genesis era)

Let's get to the real issue here. The question we should be asking is What could Japanese developers do to recapture the gaming industry they helped to revive with NES & Genesis?

 

[spirity]

Negative. Buying it day one.

Same. It looks really good, so I'll get it.

 

[Pie and Beans]

our latest batch of juniors, everybody!

they really are some of the worst yet. That they survive more hardily than compared to leaner, meaner days of GAF is a crying shame.

 

[Curufinwe]

On the one hand, that was a mean thing to say, on the other hand, he's absolutely right.

He's no more right than some grandma saying all videogames suck.

 

[Misguided]

A precursor to his fate perhaps?

Dude, implying that he should/will kill himself? You're as bad, if not worse than he is.

 

[DaBuddaDa]

Dude, implying that he should/will kill himself? You're as bad, if not worse than he is.

You're completely Misguided here.

 

[DukeTogo1300]

and that would stop Japanese westerners from feeling that way?

I know an awful lot of people here in the United States who have never stepped foot in Ireland, but they're very proud of their Irish heritage, and their immigrant family members who left there.

You don't need to be biased to see the comments were insensitive and unprofessional. Haven't you ever run across a sweeping generalization you didn't care for? Really, how can common decency be lost on so many?

 

[Misguided]

You're completely Misguided here.

You know, I've been waiting for someone to use that one on me.

 

[2San]

Let's get to the real issue here. The question we should be asking is What could Japanese developers do to recapture the gaming industry they helped to revive with NES & Genesis?

Why would they need to do this? Some companies simply need adjust their management style somewhat. Ideally I'd like to see western developers be equal to eastern developers, with a diverse range of games. In some genre's both sides have different way of approaching things. In other genre's one side or the other is specialized in. There's nothing wrong with this. That's actually somewhat the case atm.

 

[magash]

I've not seen it mentioned in the summary, but Makoto Goto seems to part of Team Onigiri (he's the team admin). This is their Global Game Jam entry: http://globalgamejam.org/2012/cycl-run-powered-team-onigiri

According to his Linkedin profile, he's working as a programmer in the games industry for 22 years now, 15 years as lead programmer. Former engine and tools programmer at Square Enix (on FFX and CrystalTools) and SiliconStudio.

That was what really caught my eye. The guy has been in the business for a very long time. I don't know why he even asked someone that is very inexperienced about the perceived gap between Japanese and Western game development companies.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

I will try to create a decent bulletpoint complete with links to relevant posts. Yes, I am bored. Throw it in the OP if you wish.

• Broken(?) by a website called develop and thrown on to GAF pastures by subversus, it details a GDC Q&A session following a screening of Indie Game The Movie involving game designer Phil Fish from Polytron who's unreleased game Fez constantly experiences mass anticipation and awards from the gaming community.
• Within the news story is of Phil Fish's apparent lack of respect toward a, then anonymous, question from a fellow Japanese developer. The Japanese man had praised the movie, stating that he was pleased to see many independent developers use Super Mario Bros. and Zelda as inspiration for what they are doing now. He then asked what he thought of modern Japanese games. Phil Fish's response was to ridicule the man in front of fellow developers by poorly articulating with "your games just suck" complete with a few cheers.
• GAF goes wild with comments ranging from the cold hard truth, the questionable, the consensus opinion, and the reality. What follows is typical GAF being GAF by discussing and dissecting like a bunch of Dodos trained as surgeons.
• This isn't the first time Fish has made a silly statement complete with his own weak argument. A precursor to his fate perhaps?
• Maybe Phil Fish needs to hire noire as a PR agent?
• Rollo Larson asks, Aeana answers. 7threst provides an alternative viewpoint.
• Interspersed between the discussions, Fish backs up his Q&A panel statement by throwing an additional 2 cents upon the Twitterverse with an apology followed by a vulgar reaffirmation.
• More discussion! kazuma_pt lives up to his namesake, gets the shits, and provides the goods in the only way some people may recognize. shadyspace throws a sobering reminder. quinntendopower doesn't understand. charlequin provides the finer points and what may lay in the future for Japanese developers. For the first few hundred posts within the thread, many are in agreement that Fish was being antagonistic without backing his statements up. Some even going so far as to state that they are no longer looking to purchase Fez.
• The cavalry arrives!! Here, here, here, and here.
• The Emperor provides feedback that the Japanese developer apparently left the room after he received his verbal lashings at GDC.
• More infighting and posts with no formulated arguments in GAF, while a nugget of truth arrives from the fingertips of Kaijima. Etc etc.
• Phil Fish is accosted in friendly manner on Twitter providing examples why modern Japanese games aren't pathetic. Fish remarks with rose-tinted glasses that Japanese games have been in decline since the 16-bit era.
• GAF rumbles some more and the brewing elephant in the room of Japanese vs Western arguments of recent seasons ignites. Blackface throws a blanket over the thread, ULTROS! and Rahxephon91 play games, while Glorious_Paradox expects Fez to be better than Nintendo's output for Fish's attitude to be accepted. Jonnyram drives it home, but forgets to praise the past 12-24 months of absolutely solid Japanese games - rare as they may be. Dave Long provides an interesting statement on PC games then and now.
• GAF no longer talks about Fish for several hundred posts outside of a remark here or there.
• Fish tweets again, this time about GAF talking about him. Problem is the thread stopped dissecting his statement hours ago.
• TheOddOne hands out a link to a 7min video with Jonathon Blow (Braid, The Witness developer) that discusses independent games and the state of Japanese games industry. SolidSnakex retorts with an article.
• Meanwhile, Agent Unknown lobs a grenade to Phil Fish on twitter. Is it live or dead?
• Fish replies to Agent Unknown complete with sexual innuendo. The grenade was a live pineapple and the concrete begins to set around Fish's feet. GAF, naturally, responds. Feep jumps in as a fellow indie developer who gave away thousands of copies of his game for free to GAF members and lays down the law.
• Fez wins Seumas McNally Grand Prize at IGF while not having seen the light of day. Fish tweets about it, then follows up a bit regarding penises and multiple awards.
• Members stop arguing about East vs West and go back to Fish. JuxJuxJux completes the GAF hate with this gem.
• Natty1 becomes a part of Detective GAF and finds previously unknown Japanese developer via Twitter with the name Makoto Goto.
• Say what?
• The bad publicity is starting to hit Fish. geebee wonders if Microsoft said something to him.
• Codeblue finds the real Makoto Goto?
• Fish finally apologizes to Goto personally via Twitter. I wonder if it had anything to do with Codeblue finding the real Goto.
• keit4 (with interesting avatar) wants to throw more fuel on the fire that is now in its ember state.
• Goto replies to apology in an incredibly humble way.
• randomkid summarizes details about Goto's first trip to GDC and an interview conducted by Japanese media. Empathy rears its beautiful head.
• We need Japanese indie games translated, pronto.
• LQX sums the end of this bulletpoint all up with an outlook to the Fez official thread. I prefer "Fez |OT| Call me Brown.. Chris Brown"

I would like to thank GAF for being GAF and Koichi Sugiyama for composing Dragon Quest music.

You missed the Klepek outrage a few pages back.

 

[stupei]

That was what really caught my eye. The guy has been in the business for a very long time. I don't know why he even asked someone that is very inexperienced about the perceived gap between Japanese and Western game development companies.

Because he seemingly made the mistake of respecting the opinions and thoughts of all his peers enough to ask someone like Phil Fish a serious question and expect an intelligent answer. Oops?

 

[Solid07]

Why would they need to do this? Some companies simply need adjust their management style somewhat. Ideally I'd like to see western developers be equal to eastern developers, with a diverse range of games. In some genre's both sides have different way of approaching things. In other genre's one side or the other is specialized in. There's nothing wrong with this. That's actually somewhat the case atm.

Why? Because I would like to see some real innovation in this industry and Japanese developers are the main source for it at the moment. I see that they're trying to re-capture the global market by IMITATING western games (Binary Domain & Vanquish just to name a couple), but the pressure is on them to separate their games from the western games while making it new and fresh enough to distract the Gamers away from casual pile of trash games like Modern Warfare and Battlefield.

Also, I have high hopes for them that they will come back with a bang somehow.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

I'm surprised noone tried to drag others into this mess, like asking Kamiya for his opinion on the matter or something since he's active on Twitter.

 

[Kade]

Why? Because I would like to see some real innovation in this industry and Japanese developers are the main source for it at the moment. I see that they're trying to re-capture the global market by IMITATING western games (Binary Domain & Vanquish just to name a couple), but the pressure is on them to separate their games from the western games while making it new and fresh enough to distract the Gamers away from casual pile of trash games like Modern Warfare and Battlefield.

Also, I have high hopes for them that they will come back with a bang somehow.

Have you played Binary Domain or Vanquish at all? They imitate Western games at the most basic and rudimentary levels while everything else has the Japanese flair everyone thinks is nonexistent this generation. The so-called "Japanese games" are still being developed at the same rate they were in previous generations, it's just that the "Western imitations" get greater focus from publishers and the press. The innovation is still there.

Whether the Japanese games industry will come back with a bang, who knows. It seems like the masses have moved on and they are what made the Japanese industry big in the 90s and early 00s.

I'm surprised noone tried to drag others into this mess, like asking Kamiya for his opinion on the matter or something since he's active on Twitter.

I can see it now:

&#31070;&#35895;&#33521;&#27193; Hideki Kamiya &#8207; @PG_kamiya
Okay. RT @GamerByTrade69420 What do you think about Phil Fish's comment about Japanese games?

 

[atomsk]

our latest batch of juniors, everybody!

I certainly noticed this about halfway into the thread just about every time I saw a "well, he's right" post

 

[spirity]

Why? Because I would like to see some real innovation in this industry and Japanese developers are the main source for it at the moment. I see that they're trying to re-capture the global market by IMITATING western games (Binary Domain & Vanquish just to name a couple), but the pressure is on them to separate their games from the western games while making it new and fresh enough to distract the Gamers away from casual pile of trash games like Modern Warfare and Battlefield.

Also, I have high hopes for them that they will come back with a bang somehow.

People in the west like shooting their friends over a network in a first person perspective. That is not going to change anytime soon. If Japan wants to court them, they'll have to offer not only a similar experience, but a more refined one. And IW have got many years of refining their formula down to a t.

I can't see it happening. I don't like that situation, but that's how it is.

 

[VeryGooster]

Keep going, Junior.

our latest batch of juniors, everybody!

For real.

 

[BruiserBear]

You don't need to be biased to see the comments were insensitive and unprofessional. Haven't you ever run across a sweeping generalization you didn't care for? Really, how can common decency be lost on so many?

Yes, the guy's comment was rude and unprofessional. That was not lost on me in the least.


However, a 50 page rage thread that is rapidly growing gives me the impression there might be more at play here. Some people seem to be taking this more personally than others.

 

[Solid07]

People in the west like shooting their friends over a network in a first person perspective. That is not going to change anytime soon. If Japan wants to court them, they'll have to offer not only a similar experience, but a more refined one. And IW have got many years of refining their formula down to a t.

I can't see it happening. I don't like that situation, but that's how it is.

There's always a room for improvement. People said the same things about Halo when it led console online gaming. Look where it's at now.

Have you played Binary Domain or Vanquish at all? They imitate Western games at the most basic and rudimentary levels while everything else has the Japanese flair everyone thinks is nonexistent this generation. The so-called "Japanese games" are still being developed at the same rate they were in previous generations, it's just that the "Western imitations" get greater focus from publishers and the press. The innovation is still there.

No innovation in gameplay. Just imitation. I'm talking about bigger differences to distinguish your game from the others.

For instance, when Gears of War first came out there were no other games like it that played like it that was popular. Great controls. Great pop-up and shoot-em-ups.

When Halo first came out, its gameplay was unparalleled to no other fps games. Advanced team A.I. (not so much anymore). Great gameplay involving re-generating shield. A button for grenade throwing (new at the time), etc... Just little things that innovate.

I might be asking for too much. Maybe I need to take a break from gaming, but one thing I do know is that Japanese developers won't be able to take over the game industry again if they merely imitate western games and put their small 'flair' into it. Why? Those types of games aren't their specialties.

 

[Pie and Beans]

8-4 unsurprisingly being from the same set of "that lot of people" downplay Fish's bluntness and the situation on their latest cast, in the same kind of "thats our Phil Fish!" tone. They also then give a whollle lotta weight to GAF favourite hot-air-blowhole Inafune.

This is all blowing over now, and it should post apology, but I'd like to think its been a bit of an eye opener for some on how this supposed 'indie scene' has become so renowned and why it keeps getting inordinate amounts of press: theyre alll budddddiiiesssss.

For instance, when Gears of War first came out there were no other games like it that played like it that was popular. Great controls. Great pop-up and shoot-em-ups.

You do of course realise Gears is MASSIVELY influenced by Resident Evil 4? Vanquish is from Mikami too and takes the formula further than any western has in recent years.

 

[Trumpets]

As for Fez, I've lost all interest in it. I also don't have a 360 though, so at this point for him to lose money from me over this he would need to come with a PC port.

Buy a 360 just so you can ignore Fez when it comes out. That'll show him.

 

[Alucrid]

There's always a room for improvement. People said the same things about Halo when it led console online gaming. Look where it's at now.



No innovation in gameplay. Just imitation. I'm talking about bigger differences to distinguish your game from the others.

For instance, when Gears of War first came out there were no other games like it that played like it that was popular.

Having only played the binary domain demo, sure, I can give you that. But vanquish? I'm having trouble thinking of what game they're imitating.
vanquish is nothing like gears o