Isn't the relative weakness of RSX compared to Xenos the main culprit here??
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
IGN rumour: PS4 to have '2 GPUs' - one APU based + one discrete
- Thread starter gofreak
- Start date
Isn't the relative weakness of RSX compared to Xenos the main culprit here??
SkylineRKR
Member
I don't think they are going for such confusion this time around.
I expect BC to be killed off, although it would be wise for them to keep PSN downloads compatible in order to keep the current userbase. It would be easier to jump ship if you cannot use all your purchased stuff on the Ps4 anyway.
I'm also not too sure about the HDD, I figure the Vita's proprietary memorycards are printing easy money for Sony. Who knows we'll get just a tiny bit of storage capacity in the Ps4, and big HDDs for purchase. I expect MS and Nintendo to do this as well.
I expect BC to be killed off, although it would be wise for them to keep PSN downloads compatible in order to keep the current userbase. It would be easier to jump ship if you cannot use all your purchased stuff on the Ps4 anyway.
I'm also not too sure about the HDD, I figure the Vita's proprietary memorycards are printing easy money for Sony. Who knows we'll get just a tiny bit of storage capacity in the Ps4, and big HDDs for purchase. I expect MS and Nintendo to do this as well.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
I'd say plan PS3 Backward Compatibility as a small processing only external add-on (this way only users wanting it get to pay for it) and pack a Blu-Ray drive in every console (as well as an HDD/SDD).
SkylineRKR
Member
Its also the divided RAM and Cell. Third parties wouldn't bother to work around these things and just load all the data into just one RAM partition. I think Terminal Reality did this for Ghostbusters.
H_Prestige
Banned
I think it will be like the ps3. One type of unit with differing HDD capacity. I don't think there would be much demand for a cheaper download only ps4, and I think Sony would rather handle ps3 BC with an external CELL/RSX module.
StealthGoblin
Banned
The next gen consoles will be more about entertainment as a broader beast so I'm thinking that it'll depend on the revenue made through downloads of movies, games and music in contrast to including the HDD.
I'm not expecting every service to be a streaming service and Sony in particular are working on software that augments the files saved on your HDD such as PlayMemories/PlayView etc.
Could do either way. I'm a big supporter of downloadable games I'd definitely want a bigger HDD. I'm a Plus member, so HDD space is vital to me.
I'd want my BC 'inside the box'. For the most part I dislike add ons. I'm seriously considering getting out of console gaming altogether if the next round of consoles are 'lite' out of the box and depend on me buying add ons. I'd much rather pay more up front and get everything contained in one discrete box.
how can you say something is over rated just because multiplat devs didn't want to take the time to take advantage of it's strong points?
iceatcs
Junior Member
What I thought too. Even I've read that if without cell then PS3 will be far behind from 360.
seventynine
Member
That really hasn't been the case for years now. Many studios have got to grips with the PS3. Looking at Digital Foundry will show you that. We are at a stage now where there are noticeable compromises in both versions of a given game, be it AA and resolution or a lack of V-Sinc on 360 vs. framerate drops on PS3.
I remember that PS2 BC module patent from a couple of years ago, I believe it was to connect via the Ethernet port. Personally I like the two SKU approach of having it with or without while having the choice to buy the module down the line.
Cell has too little cache and the fact that devs have to work around having to use SPE cores vs full cores makes it more complex to develop for. Sure, more time dedicated to getting their engines to work would help, but some devs don't wanna waste resources doing so. 1st party devs don't have issues of course, but multiplat devs do. Cell is just too specialized to keep supporting through next Gen. Its better to use a quad core with each core being fully capable than to have 1 full core + a bunch of little ones. Its the right move for Sony.
pcostabel
Gold Member
The reason third party devs don't take advantage of the Spus is not that they are difficult to code for, it's because the 360 doesn't have them. Writing SPU jobs is no harder than writing shaders. You can write SPU skinning that only works on PS3 or GPU skinning that works on both platforms (and PC) in the same amount of time. Obviously third party devs will go for the latter, first party ones have the luxury to choose the one that best fits the PS3 architecture.
AgentP
Thinks mods influence posters politics. Promoted to QAnon Editor.
That's pure hyperbole. It was generally 2-3 games a year, the rest were parity, meaning unless someone pointed out any differences most people would never see them. And of course 2011 saw many of versions that were actually better.
maybe having some eDRAM on the APU should help achieve lower latency also I thought that was one of the advantages of having the CPU & GPU on the same chip.
1 thing for sure we have never seen what can be done with games being made from the ground up to take advantage of a system with a APU & GPGPU working together.
think about it the PS3 is still blowing minds by what is being achieved by the Cell & the RSX which is basically a GeForce 7800 with 252mb main memory & 252mb of video memory.
Correct me if I am wrong but slavery have been abolished, no?
You can't force multi devs to take advantage of the CELL when SONY isn't paying them extra to do so. So why should they waste money and resources? To prove a point? Please.
Even Pachter the idiot figured this one out and called it on his first BRound when PS3 was getting released. Or was it Rubin ex Naughty Dog. Doesn't matter it's so obvious that's how it is.
N4G have been calling devs "lazy" for not taking advantage of the Cell which I find totally moronic tbh. I can understand it if it comes from the kids then never worked, but if it comes from adults o boy. I have never met anyone that worked for free, never. Or extra for free. So why do people expect developers to do so? Just cuz they are nerds, o ok....
Just to make it clear I am exclusive PS3 owner.
Yeah let's totally ignore previous 4-5 years and focus on last one.
Can't wait to play The Witcher 2 on my PS3 o wait. Never mind it was too much work to port the code to PS3
With an easier to develop system with better tools from the start should make their intent clear this time around. That said, I hope they can gain parity with (rumoured specs of) XB3 in terms of Raw performance.
That's all I want powerful easy to develop system. At this point having slight edge in raw power is irrelevant most of the time as this gen proved. At least Vita is a good sign.
Raistlin said:
Its not relevant because your never gonna see a console MB that is inherently comparable to a PC MB. The apu design wouldn't be exotic because the PC already has had a similar design, the video memory is still in-house on the card and there are still DDR slots. Again, consoles don't use cards and memory is soldered on to a board. And yeah, consoles don't use drivers. I also don't know which part of their Xfire design would transfer into a console. A multi-gpu design doesn't make sense in a modern console.
Raistlin said:
No no non no no. NO. The Xbox, PS2, GCN, and 360 all had what is essentially unified memory. Also PC games are designed with Direct X and a Windows Kernel. Its a very poor choice to compare that with console development.
No. PS3 has essentially the same amount as the 360. The problem with the PS3's memory is that it used two different types, with different read speeds. The GPU had access to the XDR but it adds extreme latency making it unpractical.Raistlin said:
These are all issues that could pop up with a two-gpu design. I can't imagine the BW issues of console that would have three separate processing units.
again how does that make it overrated? it's not highly regarded as one of the easiest CPU's to program for so how is it overrated because multiplat devs didn't feel like it was worth the effort to take the time to take advantage of it?
it's a Console CPU from 6 years ago that's still ahead of PC CPU's in some ways.
Your comment is made so much better because of the menacing picture of Newman beside it
Divided RAM is probably less of a problem than the PS3 OS taking more RAM than the 360 one.
And how can Cell be more of a problem than RSX when devs have to offload processing to the Cell to make up for RSX's deficiencies?
If you switched the RSX for Xenos, you'd end up with a more powerful PS3, but if you switched the Xenon for Cell you'd end up with a way less capable one.
Blaming Cell is getting out of control.
from looking at AMD road maps for 2013 I'm thinking the PS4 will have
Kaveri - APU with a embedded GPU with about the same performance level as a HD 7750
Sea Islands - GPU
Heterogeneous Systems Architecture with Unified Memory for CPU/GPU
the Unified Memory might be the reason it was reports of the PS4 going with only 2GB since they would be going for the higher priced Ram that would be fast enough for the GPU & APU.
using the faster ram that's usually for the GPU as the main memory would make sense since the APU also has a GPU in it & when the APU & GPU work together in the older setup that's out now the GPU has to work at the speed of the APU memory so why not have fast memory all around so the GPU doesn't lose memory bandwidth when working with the APU.
but then again if they are going with a SOC things might not be so advance.
Kaveri - APU with a embedded GPU with about the same performance level as a HD 7750
Sea Islands - GPU
Heterogeneous Systems Architecture with Unified Memory for CPU/GPU
the Unified Memory might be the reason it was reports of the PS4 going with only 2GB since they would be going for the higher priced Ram that would be fast enough for the GPU & APU.
using the faster ram that's usually for the GPU as the main memory would make sense since the APU also has a GPU in it & when the APU & GPU work together in the older setup that's out now the GPU has to work at the speed of the APU memory so why not have fast memory all around so the GPU doesn't lose memory bandwidth when working with the APU.
but then again if they are going with a SOC things might not be so advance.
So the 360 has ~15 games that turned out better?
Games now are at parity on average with the random game showing a slight advantage, usually for logical reasons.
Not sure what consoles you're looking at.
"The Cell Broadband Engine that powered the PS3 cost $400m to develop; the main SoC for the incoming console is likely to be a 3D stack incorporating thru-silicon-via technology and could be the first $1bn hardware design project."
--
He describes the architecture in broad terms: "You are talking about powerful CPU and GPU with extra DSP and programmable logic."
-----------------------------------------------------------
these quotes alone lets us know it's not going to be a simple "AMD's A8-3850 APU and Radeon HD 7670 GPU"
& looking at the AMD road maps & reading about Heterogeneous Systems Architecture & other things in the road map has me thinking that Sony is building this whole SOC around the HSA including the HSA GPU that's in the road map for 2014.
PS: I'm sleepy & got thrown off from what I was trying to say so hopefully this don't sound all crazy.
1 thing for sure it's not a A8-3850 APU & HD 7670 GPU , chances are the A8-3850 & 7670 was just the closes things to the design that was on the market when they was making the 1st dev kits & the higher model AMD HD 7000's GPU's are not designed to work with the GPU in the APU.
--
He describes the architecture in broad terms: "You are talking about powerful CPU and GPU with extra DSP and programmable logic."
-----------------------------------------------------------
these quotes alone lets us know it's not going to be a simple "AMD's A8-3850 APU and Radeon HD 7670 GPU"
& looking at the AMD road maps & reading about Heterogeneous Systems Architecture & other things in the road map has me thinking that Sony is building this whole SOC around the HSA including the HSA GPU that's in the road map for 2014.
PS: I'm sleepy & got thrown off from what I was trying to say so hopefully this don't sound all crazy.
1 thing for sure it's not a A8-3850 APU & HD 7670 GPU , chances are the A8-3850 & 7670 was just the closes things to the design that was on the market when they was making the 1st dev kits & the higher model AMD HD 7000's GPU's are not designed to work with the GPU in the APU.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Good posts, I'll continue with HSA:from looking at AMD road maps for 2013 I'm thinking the PS4 will have
Kaveri - APU with a embedded GPU with about the same performance level as a HD 7750
Heterogeneous Systems Architecture with Unified Memory for CPU/GPU
the Unified Memory might be the reason it was reports of the PS4 going with only 2GB since they would be going for the higher priced Ram that would be fast enough for the GPU & APU.
using the faster ram that's usually for the GPU as the main memory would make sense since the APU also has a GPU in it & when the APU & GPU work together in the older setup that's out now the GPU has to work at the speed of the APU memory so why not have fast memory all around so the GPU doesn't lose memory bandwidth when working with the APU.
but then again if they are going with a SOC things might not be so advance.
AMD Fusion System Architecture is now Heterogeneous Systems Architecture
1) IBM, Global Foundries (AMD Spinoff) and Samsung Forges have a joint technology group
2) IBM 3D stacking with standards going on-line in 2013 (Standards between the above and more)
3) 3D stacked memory by Micron with Samsung support in the IBM forge 2013. Memory controller is part of the logic stack and only 2 and 4 gig stacks available in 2013. These do not work for most of the speculated targets but do work for game consoles.
Several posters do not believe 3D stacking or 3D stacked memory will be available in time for next generation game consoles. My opinion is that 2013-2014 was chosen as a target date because 3D stacking and 3D stacked memory is scheduled to be available. IT's two years (2011) after early speculation had a next generation playstation release.
I haven't read anywhere about any plans other than Sample quantities in early 2013 with production level quantities late 2013. The memory controller included as part of the logic layer eliminates it as a candidate for current high end designs.....I.E. it was not designed for the markets speculated in articles, also and the big point here is the 2013 run is 2 gig and 4 gig 3D stacked memory ONLY. Tell me what high end application is going to use such a small amount of memory. The memory controller included in the 4 gig 3D stack precludes using multiple memory chips so if anything it looks like it's designed for the SMALL end not upper end.
I think 3D stacked memory in 2013 taking the place of DDR5 or even XDR2 is a huge design plus for a game console. The 2013 Fusion APU design has a common memory pool but not a memory controller. Most PC CPU chipsets include the memory controller, that it doesn't and 3D stacked memory with memory controller is going to be available in 2013 has me thinking the Micron 3D stacked memory will be used by that chipset. 4 gig could be for Xbox and 2 Gig for Sony, this could change but the 2gig version is probably going to be much cheaper as somewhat defective 4 gig versions can be used as 2 gig.
Even if the first run of 3D stacked memory is more expensive, over time it should be far less expensive than DDR5 or XDR2 as it uses DDR3 but is slightly faster than XDR2 and reduces Motherboard complexity, eliminates motherboard wires between multiple memory chips which can eliminate a need for a differential buss (2 wires for each data line) needed by XDR2.
Sony can't afford the R&D in the quote, it's probably a total of all the partners in the design with each able to use the advances provided by the R&D. 2014 APU & GPU make sense if there are close ties between partners in new HSA designs.onQ123 said:
It's possible that the next Xbox is using the same chipset....the AMD "HSA Fusion CPU-GPU (2014 design) with unified memory pool and 3D stacked memory is perfect for a game console". Anyone know of anything similar using IBM Power; there can't be because IBM is not as advanced as Nvidia and AMD in GPU designs.
It's not just an industry change in hardware, Software is changing too:
http://forwardthinking.pcmag.com/none/290834-a-big-week-for-supercomputing
http://forwardthinking.pcmag.com/ch...erogeneous-processors-the-future-of-computing
So if Fusion designs (CPU-GPU) in the same package with HSA efficiencies are part of next generation consoles then the only economical off the shelf choice is AMD. Nvidia is going with ARM-GPU fusion and IBM does not have GPU designs to integrate. Sony can always design a custom fusion chip with huge R&D which I think unlikely, same for Microsoft. Early rumors appear to be supportable given this information we (royal we) did not have. Intel and AMD have a similar roadmap with similar fusion designs but from articles, Intel is not a candidate because they won't release IP for game consoles.
Sorry for cross-posting but I just though I would post my thoughts on next-gen in here since there's more info and discussion in this thread than in the one I originally posted in.
I have a feeling that Microsoft might be pouring a lot into the performance of Kinect 2.0 since Kinect was such a success for them. Being just marginally more powerful than the Wii U and bundling Kinect 2 for a decent price would be a goldmine for Microsoft, especially if it can deliver on what Kinect was originally supposed to be. It would allow families to get the whole family game experience while those who are hooked on Xbox Live would get their machine at the same time. Before it was seen like the Xbox was more of the system for the gamers in the house and the Wii was for the family. Kinect has broken that wall. If Microsoft makes an affordable console to capitalize on that they'll make a fortune.
Sony is in a rough spot and I think they'll be the wildcard for next gen. They may try to up the power to appeal to the more tech savvy crowd. I'm sure 4k blu-ray support will be their 'trojan horse' this time around like DVD and blu-ray before it. I have a feeling that they're likely talking a lot with their first parties to see what kind of performance they want since exclusives and their visuals were key to the PS3 not getting trounced. If they can't afford to go for power, which is quite likely, you can bet they're talking to third parties to make it easy to work on. It'll be interesting to see where they go.
I have a feeling that Microsoft might be pouring a lot into the performance of Kinect 2.0 since Kinect was such a success for them. Being just marginally more powerful than the Wii U and bundling Kinect 2 for a decent price would be a goldmine for Microsoft, especially if it can deliver on what Kinect was originally supposed to be. It would allow families to get the whole family game experience while those who are hooked on Xbox Live would get their machine at the same time. Before it was seen like the Xbox was more of the system for the gamers in the house and the Wii was for the family. Kinect has broken that wall. If Microsoft makes an affordable console to capitalize on that they'll make a fortune.
Sony is in a rough spot and I think they'll be the wildcard for next gen. They may try to up the power to appeal to the more tech savvy crowd. I'm sure 4k blu-ray support will be their 'trojan horse' this time around like DVD and blu-ray before it. I have a feeling that they're likely talking a lot with their first parties to see what kind of performance they want since exclusives and their visuals were key to the PS3 not getting trounced. If they can't afford to go for power, which is quite likely, you can bet they're talking to third parties to make it easy to work on. It'll be interesting to see where they go.
Chuck Norris
Banned
Continuing from locked thread:
I understand they aren't on PC hardware roadmaps that have been publically stated, but PS360 had quite a few technologies that still hadn't emerged on PC. Who is to say Orbis/Durango won't have similar advances? Rumours asidethuway said:
I think he's being a bit too pessimistic. It's true that now is when you make the decisions but it still could be for parts that are late 2012/very early 2013. If AMD keeps downsizing some powerful cards like they've done this year with the pictairn chip then there could easily be the equivalent of one of those or better for a decent price, especially if they're custom parts planned out now based on other roadmaps.
shinra-bansho
Member
From locked thread.
They can lose money on their next console. As can Microsoft. They can't lose insane amounts of money per unit, like the PS3.
They can sell for a small loss, or break even. There's nothing to indicate they've abandoned a loss leader model - the Vita is indicative they're still comfortable with a loss leader model provided it's a small loss that can be recouped easily with software royalties.
The idea that one either puts out a $599 console losing several hundred dollars per unit or tapes together two last gen consoles is a false dichotomy that's perpetuated far too often.
Bundling a their $250 handheld with their next gen console is clearly what they should do. Rather than just dropping the price to a more mass market level and getting some good software on it. :/
There are alternative rumors, one can take their pick.
They can lose money on their next console. As can Microsoft. They can't lose insane amounts of money per unit, like the PS3.
They can sell for a small loss, or break even. There's nothing to indicate they've abandoned a loss leader model - the Vita is indicative they're still comfortable with a loss leader model provided it's a small loss that can be recouped easily with software royalties.
The idea that one either puts out a $599 console losing several hundred dollars per unit or tapes together two last gen consoles is a false dichotomy that's perpetuated far too often.
Bundling a their $250 handheld with their next gen console is clearly what they should do. Rather than just dropping the price to a more mass market level and getting some good software on it. :/
Chuck Norris
Banned
I think going down that road would be a poor choice, it'd be the equivelant of Nintendo doing the Wiimote again. Except Kinect seems to have had an even shorter lifespan, and less functionality than the Wiimote did. Up to Microsoft, but I don't think it will carry them to success
Why not have ps3 hardware (cell+RSX) as silicon on chip thing-a-majig as the apu part?
That way you cover backwards compatibility with psn games. :/
And spend more on the discrete graphics side?
It'll be more of an upgrade to premium, rather then changing to a new car I suppose.
Not to mention, exclude all the stuff cell requires, making this quite the absurd post. Before anybody actually thinks this a sensible suggestion.
That way you cover backwards compatibility with psn games.
:/And spend more on the discrete graphics side?
It'll be more of an upgrade to premium, rather then changing to a new car I suppose.
Not to mention, exclude all the stuff cell requires, making this quite the absurd post. Before anybody actually thinks this a sensible suggestion.
Sorry about the other thread, I didn't find this one when I searched for the leaked specs.
Sony's smartest move would be to try and get the console under $200 and package the Vita with it, as it's controller, the rumored specs could possibly achieve this, and it would be a really good way to combat both Wii U and 3DS. Giving Sony's hardware a push, as not everyone who owned a PSP bought a PS3 and vise versa.
Sony's smartest move would be to try and get the console under $200 and package the Vita with it, as it's controller, the rumored specs could possibly achieve this, and it would be a really good way to combat both Wii U and 3DS. Giving Sony's hardware a push, as not everyone who owned a PSP bought a PS3 and vise versa.
This is a joke post, right? Come on.
shinra-bansho
Member
On BC, I thought there were patents for an external adapter device. That would probably be a good option for people who want it - while keeping costs down on the actual console.
Do you realise how ridiculous that suggestion sounds? How implausible and impractical it would be?
Do you realise how ridiculous that suggestion sounds? How implausible and impractical it would be?
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
Why? When are we even getting 4k TVs? 2025? That doesn't really make much sense to emphasize.
PS4 to require you to buy a proprietary HDD add-on. Only $150 for 500GB!
I think they'll probably try to break even at $300 for the base SKU (aka "tard pack"), and probably make a small profit on whatever their premium SKU is for $400.
You out your damn mind son'.
The Vita will drop in price dramatically as time moves forward. It is using off the shelf parts after all. It'll be in profit range before you know it.
that is just the component price, with packaging and shipping and everything else, you are still looking at a nearly $300 console, plus a $200 handheld (shipping and boxing would be counted with the PS4) it would be a $100 dollar loss per console with those numbers though, but they could probably get away with a 449 SKU and keep selling the PS3 for the time being.
This is 2014 we are talking about. The way inflation works, this thing will be priced at 349 with 50 dollars a year online. There's your magical $399. Continual $50 a year will let the profits steam roll in. Sony can afford to open the wallet next gen.
jump_button
Banned
Look next gen going to cost a lot more and look just a little better then what we have now only hardcore tech will notice so will devs really kill them self trying? art style can easy make up for it being a little lower then the tech guys want
Next gen will look dramatically better. People were saying the same things coming off PS2 to PS3. With enough power you can do some amazing things. We are the cusp of almost CG quality graphics.
The next gen after PS4/Loop will herald even larger tech jumps seeing as how the revolution for quantum computing and 3D stacking is only beginning.
There would be absolutely no point in sony making a $200 console. None.
You should buy a Wii U. It sounds like that is what you really want. The Vita's price will fall in due time, but to launch at a $449 price tag is nothing but suicide.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
Inflation and purchasing power aren't really tied together, especially from a consumer perspective.
And I do think Sony will charge for online, they'd be pretty dumb not to.
Kung Fu Grip
Banned
l forgot about that interview with the sony CTO. Doesn't it make all these rumors false? I mean you have talk of a poweful console straight from the horses mouth.
I starting to believe that by having a very expensive high end sku, it makes the cheapest feel like it has very good value. I'd have five skus, starting at £399.
£399 - 120 gb
£425 - 180 gb
£499 - 250 gb
£525 - 500 gb
£599 - 1tb
Chuck Norris
Banned
Hmm is a $50 rise over current gen "standard" launch prices really suicide? Or a $50 - $150 price drop on PS3 launch prices
It's all about percieved value in the end, I don't think there is any way they bundle Vita and PS4, but if they did I could see consumers being keen at $449.